Well, I believe that the koan in English and German was passed out. And as I always warn people, if you're not familiar with koans, and even if you are, don't try to understand it. And since you have it, you might, there's a possibility you'll read it this evening. And so I want to give you that warning. And since you already have the text, you might read it tonight. And that's why I want to make this warning. In the previous koan we looked at fairly well in Munster.

[01:50]

Is it loud enough? Yeah. It's about what... It's about Linji's passing away. And the question of what continues and what dies. And this koan asks us, what is alive? And that's really, that makes this koan actually quite difficult to look at. Because we take being alive really pretty much for granted. I think it was Maurice Chevalier on his 90th birthday. Somebody asked him how he was. And I think he said, wonderful, wonderful, considering the alternative.

[03:07]

Yeah. So mostly we're alive as an alternative to, you know, we think it's good that we're not dead. But from the point of view of Buddhism, most of us don't know aliveness. And it can't be known by comparison to something else. So to the extent that we know things primarily by comparison to something else, it makes this koan rather difficult to talk about.

[04:25]

So it's, you know, like the koan I can say, well, let's go downstairs and have a cup of tea. And this koan is also about other koans, it's very clearly about three other koans, the stories in three other koans. So to the extent that it's necessary, tomorrow sometime I'll tell you some of the stories that are behind this koan. Now just the other day I was in Austria near Graz. And after the seminar, one of the people in the meeting is an expert at dowsing.

[05:53]

And by chance, I tried dowsing once as a child, really. I was 15 or 16 something. And I was walking to work at this, after school ended, I worked in a grocery store. I usually had school ended at 12.30, I believe, and I had to be at work at 1, so I'd go home and cook something and be at work at 1. And I didn't... So I didn't have much time and I was walking across the parking lot of the grocery store called Stop and Shop.

[07:02]

And these men were wandering around in the middle of the parking lot with welding rods bent at right angles, you know, sort of wandering around, you know. And coming from a rather scientific family, I said, what are you guys doing? You know, they're wondering. And they said, we're looking for the water pipe. We have to repair it. And I said, wouldn't a magnet be better? I had no idea what they were doing. And they said, oh, we're dousing.

[08:18]

You want to try it, kid? So I had about a minute before I was supposed to be in the store. So I said, all right, you know. And I thought to myself, do they think I'm a magnet that can find iron? And so I took the rods and walked along across the lot and suddenly they just went . And they said thanks a lot and they started digging right there. And I went in the store and I came out in about half an hour and there was the pipe and they'd uncovered it. So since then I I've been occasionally I've doused at Crestone for the telephone lines and water lines and you know, I'm pretty primitive but I can walk along.

[09:45]

So because people at Crestone, the original construction, they just started burying things. No one cared. No one kept track of where pipes were and wires were. So instead of digging up everywhere, we tried to find things. So this fellow, Wolfgang, that's his name, isn't it? Wolfgang, yeah. At this, where I was. Teaches dowsing. So I've always used metal and usually coat hangers.

[11:00]

But he was using plastic. I thought this is too modern for me. You read like, I'd like wood or a willow tree or, you know, tall hat, you know. But he said that the plastic actually works better because so much energy comes through into you when you do dowsing that the plastic does less of that. It's easier to get rid of the energy after each dowsing. So he's a very nice person, so I said, he asked if I would like to try it, and I said, sure. So we were having a cup of coffee or something, and he's got all these marks on it, red and yellow and green and gray and things like that.

[12:20]

And I said, what's this line? He said, when you hold it that way, you can feel the grid. I said, you can? I'm just telling you an anecdote here. Because this koan is a lot about anecdotes. So, we could start with one. And I said, what grid, where? And he says, about three meters above the earth, there's a grid that runs, you know, following, I said, does it go up when a hill comes?

[13:22]

Does it go up the hill? He said, yes. So, okay, fine. And what this line means is that's to test vitality of people and things. And another line was for eloquence. And he said when you douse a church, often the pulpit that was built in the Middle Ages is put on one of the lines that allows you to speak freely. So, Christiane, did you place these cushions in the right place? Yeah, good. That's good. So, anyway, and the ones for water, of course, and so forth. And one's for caves, holes.

[14:39]

So I mean, I said, all right, let's try. So I went out and so I said, let's start at the top one, which is for this grid. No, no, that's not great. We start with water first because I've done water before. When you hold it a certain way and you walk along and it goes right down, as I expected. But it is, I don't know, I mean, I've done this enough that I shouldn't be surprised, but I'm actually quite surprised when it happens. Because you can't see anything, and I'm a skeptical kind of person, but you can't see anything, but it moves. And I said that, you know, I said to Wolfgang, I kind of actually feel like, it seems to me I feel it in my body, but it's very small feeling.

[15:50]

He said, yes, you actually feel it when you begin to notice it in your spine, and then you intentionally transfer it to the divining rod. Now in English it's called a divining, a divine rod. Is it called something like that in German? I think it's come from wishing. Wishing, desire, yeah. So then the second one I tried was this grid. And my second attempt was to find this grid. And then every two and a half feet, so actually it went either up or down.

[16:55]

And then I tried it for the cave or space and we found a big place where they dug out a hole for all kinds of pipes and it went right to it. And then you can actually pick up interferences coming from the building and so forth. And then you can receive interference that comes from the buildings. And finally I said, let's try vitality. And so he stood over there and I walked toward him. And it didn't move till I was right up close to him. And he was mortified. He thought he'd lost his vitality. But I tried it again and his vitality was fine.

[18:15]

Okay. Now the story about, one of the stories about Deshan, Deshan, Who is one of the creators of Chinese Zen Buddhism. I should say, one of the creators of Chinese Buddhism. And in this case, all Zen Buddhism is really Chinese. And he's one of the people who made, was one of the stages in making Indian Buddhism into Chinese Buddhism. And I think we're together in the process of making Japanese and Chinese and Vietnamese Buddhism into some kind of Western Buddhism.

[19:22]

Which you know, which I think all of you know, I don't think we should adapt Buddhism, but we should find it in ourselves and in some way that will develop in the West. Now this is also the last seminar I'm doing in this kind of summer practice period in Europe. And I come back in September. Yeah. We come back in September. And we've had several seminars and a sashin. And many of you have been to some of them or quite a lot of them.

[20:52]

One thing I'd like to do in this seminar is to look at, at least for a short period myself, what we've looked at with you, what we've studied or come up during these months, during these weeks. Because usually I find, although it's actually a kind of divining or dowsing with you each group, each couple months I'm here, certain things we work on. And almost surely in September we'll start on opening up a different vein of Buddhism. Vein of like ore, not blood. I'm not suggesting we all open our eyes.

[22:17]

So if any of you have something you'd like me to talk about again or bring up in some way or study together, I'd like to do that because often I'm told that it's useful to go over some things at this point. Because almost surely, as I said, we'll start something new in September. Okay. So this Deshan was known when he was young as Diamond Joe. Sounds like somebody ran a casino in Las Vegas. Anyway, Diamond Joe, it's spelled C-H-O-U, so it's pronounced Joe. So Diamond Joe, Joe wird C-H-O-U ausgesprochen.

[23:26]

And And he was known as that because he was an expert on the Diamond Sutra. And he carried... He was famous for carrying the Diamond Sutras around and lecturing on them. And the Diamond Sutra says that it takes... a very long time, usually some lifetimes to achieve true one-pointed concentration. And that's actually not such a bad idea. because it does bring in, I think a genuine way, the fact that our great grandparents, grandparents' parents do pass abilities to us.

[24:47]

And right now, as I've pointed out, stuff recently that that in the light we have one kind of understanding together but there's a kind of darkness present in this room in which something much more direct is being passed So we may be inheriting many lifetimes right in this room. But I'm a little ahead of our story here. Because that's more Zen way of looking at it. And in this story, the Diamond Sutra, the way he was teaching it, represents this long period of time to achieve one-pointedness.

[26:07]

And then, as the, sometimes said, even eons to study the life of the Buddha's So he carried this big box around. You can imagine the whole Diamond Sutra written out in calligraphy. It was quite a big physical object, probably a wooden box, and he put it in. He'd left home young and studied all kinds of Buddhism and finally brought it all together in the Diamond Sutra, which he was, as I said, famous for lecturing from. And at one point he got rather tired and he decided to stop and have some tea or something.

[27:14]

This is a story Suzuki Roshi told us a number of times. So he stopped at a tea shop and a woman there saw him sit down and then put this big thing down, you know. And the woman looked at him and said, what's that you're carrying there? And he said, the Diamond Sutra. It's sometimes called the Diamond Cutter Sutra for resolving all doubts. So she said, well, if you can answer my question, I will give you some tea cakes for free to lighten up your mind.

[28:54]

This is rather, you know, usually when you go into a coffee shop, you're not confronted by first a free coffee. Especially with a question like that, I'll give you some free, if you can answer my question, I'll give you some tea cakes to lighten up your mind. And fairly often in Zen, these kind of enlightened woman adepts who seem to run tea shops are there. The men ran the temples, but the women ran the tea shops. We're hoping to change that in this generation. And I'm thinking of opening a tea shop. So anyway, he said, well, sure. And she said, the Diamond Sutra says that past mind cannot be grasped.

[30:35]

The future mind cannot be grasped. The present mind cannot be grasped. With what mind will you grasp this tea cake? And he actually didn't know what to say. So he didn't get his free tea cake. And he'd actually was traveling south because he'd heard there were these devil-worshiping Zen Buddhists who said that this very mind is Buddha. So he was genuinely flustered and had the integrity to sort of admit he was flustered. And so she took the opportunity and said, you should meet a particular Zen master.

[32:00]

So he went to see this Zen master. And he had a very dramatic encounter with him. Which I will tell you tomorrow. Because tonight I'm just trying to get a feel for what we should talk about together. This koan is asking us also, we have the ability to think. Do we actually exercise our capacity to think? We also have the possibility of everything that comes with being alive. Can we know this in some way, feel this in some way?

[33:19]

Anyway, this koan is trying to find a way to settle us into this place to find out this present mind which cannot be grasped. Sometimes we talk about three bodhisattva gates of practice. And the Manjushri's gate is to enter into your interior consciousness and the emptiness of that. And the gate of Avlokiteshvara is to enter into how we're connected with everyone. And the gate of Samantabhadra is entered without moving at all, without taking a step.

[34:43]

And a kind of turning word mantra, which I've given some of you the last few weeks, is each moment is a precise physical act. And I don't know how you will work with this or what language you want to find, but some language like that is very helpful to kind of gently gather ourselves in this present moment. I find that when I do a little, I've done dowsing, It really works when you find yourself at that place where each moment is a precise physical act.

[36:18]

And the preciseness of having your hands on the dowsing rod, the divining rod, That preciseness allows something that seems not physical to happen. And I told this story about dowsing just to emphasize that we don't know really what this present moment is. And in this koan where it says in the beginning, sometimes he wraps a special stone with silk. This is a reference to what was fairly common in China in those days, certain shamanic practices where you used certain kinds of images to find the energy of the present situation.

[37:35]

So, in a way, this coin is have a cup of tea, but it's also saying, how do you douse the present moment? And it starts out with this attendant asking Deshan, where have all the sages since antiquity gone? I mean, you see the problem in such a statement. The sages, I mean Buddhas, out there in the past somewhere?

[38:36]

Or in some other province or in Asia? This khan is emphasizing if there are sages, if they're going to be anywhere, they have to be here. And you can't look for some special person. And you can't even look for some special quality in yourself. So Deshawn says, what, how's that? And he was known, of course, as this, he started the whole practice of hitting with a stick and shouting. When he was young, he was a quite fiery, dangerous person.

[39:42]

So this person, this guy says, where have all the sages gone since antiquity? And he says, huh? What did you say? Why don't you have a cup of tea? He pats him on the back and says, have a cup of tea the next day. So I think that's enough of a introduction to this koan. If it's possible to have an introduction. But again, reading the koan, don't try to understand it. Just get the, please two, read it if you have the time and just get the general feeling of it.

[40:53]

This koan also, in every koan has a kind of, has a meditation built into it. Certain questions are raised and also those questions form the basis of a meditation. And here it's, can we have a mind without comparison? And can we have a mind which in no way seeks outside? It's quite difficult to do. But it's difficult to do mainly because of our habits and because of our tendency to really believe this moment somehow is waiting for the next moment.

[42:05]

Somehow you've got to get across to yourself in practice that all you're ever going to have of life is right now. And it's really, I'm trying to find words to say this so that we can notice it. Mm-hmm. So I'd like us to sit a little bit before we end. Have a cup of tea. To have a cup of tea with three beautiful lotus flowers

[43:06]

and a cool breeze coming in the window, I must be in paradise. Of course, this is the pure land. Maybe you can close this window so it's a little quieter, please. I'll try to get a cool breeze from the back. Do we have the sticks for writing on the board?

[44:34]

I left them in a minute. Thanks. Okay, so, good morning. Good morning. I think I should introduce another story about Tokusan, Teshan, to you. Where we left off yesterday, last evening, this tea lady had suggested that he go see Lungya, a Zen master who she knew about.

[45:36]

Now, Lungia means dragon pond. And the tea cake he ordered was from the woman is, I believe the characters, if I remember correctly, mean something like mind refreshener or something like that. So when he asked for a tea cake, he sort of, in the language he used in Chinese was like, can I have a mind refresher? So she that level of the meaning as well as the he wanted the he cake.

[47:02]

And that kind of play, as you'll see, is important in these stories. So she picked up on an on this and said, you know, I'll lighten your mind, lighten your load, if you can answer my question. And she then used a quote from the Diamond Sutra to turn him around. So she sent him to Lunya. So he came into the room, he came into the temple and he couldn't see anyone. He was kind of a smart aleck.

[48:19]

A smart aleck means like a kid who's always showing off or saying smart things or something like that. Yeah, er war also ein schlau Kopf und versucht also immer anzugeben. Anyway, I know there's no smart alecks in Germany. Definitely not. So, Teshan looked around and didn't see anybody, but he said, I've heard about the famous lunja, dragon pond. But I, and I don't see any pond, and certainly no dragon. Yeah, it's not the way to go to visit somebody. But Lunja saw something in this guy. And he came into the room from behind the screen where he divides the rooms.

[49:24]

And he said, well, you've really arrived. So, that during the day and into the evening, Tokusan, Deshan, Tokusan is the Japanese way of pronouncing it, stood in attendance to Lungyap. I know the feeling and I'm sure he was, he didn't know what to do, but he felt something meeting Lungya. And he became Lungya's disciple.

[50:43]

So not knowing what to do, he just stood in attendance, which is actually kind, the feeling is just to stand in the presence of consciousness. So after a while, it's getting quite late, and finally Longya said, why don't you go now? And you have to imagine doing this or imagine feeling something deeply enough that you're just meeting somebody, you just stood near them for some hours. Well, they did their various things they had to do. So finally, Lounier said, well, why don't you go now? Deschamps immediately bowed and went out. But opening the door, it was very dark out, and he said, it's dark out. So,

[51:44]

Lungya said, just a moment, I'll give you a lantern. So he lit the lantern and gave it to him. And Deshan stepped outside and Lungya was beside him. And as he stepped out, Lungya blew the lantern out. And Deshan was enlightened. What else did you expect? If it were only that easy. But it is that easy. How many of you stood in attendance for hours in the presence of someone? Have felt something that deeply? So he was quite aroused.

[53:13]

And Luñña said, after this, of course it all happens like this, you know. So he blows the lantern out and then almost immediately Deshan, although his whole life has changed, The length of time is, you know, like that. So he blows the light out, and a moment later, Deshan bows. And Lungya says, what have you seen that you bow? And Deshan says, From now on, I will never again doubt what is on the tongues of the venerable teachers of the world.

[54:31]

Never again will I doubt what's on the tongues of the venerable teachers of the world. And then later, there's more to the story, I will tell you later if you want, but he in the end burned the commentaries on the Diamond Sutra. So this koan is the story I just told you is really embedded in this story of the one we're reading that you had the copy of. No, you don't have to look at it. Just starting out, where have all the sages since antiquity gone? That's a version of never again will, I doubt, what is on the tongues of the venerable teachers of the world.

[55:47]

May I tell a little story? Okay. About four in the morning, this morning, I looked at Ulrike and she was awake. And I said, are you awake? She said, yes. And I said, what are you doing awake? And she said, I'm just diving into waking consciousness for a moment. What? I thought to myself, boy, she's getting this Zen talk down here. In the middle of the night.

[57:11]

At first it struck me as rather funny. What do you mean, Zen? I thought you were putting me on. But I realized you were, as accurately as you could in English, saying you just dived into waking consciousness from him. So I thought, well, actually that's what I just did. I just dove into waking consciousness for a moment, and then we both swam off into someplace else. And I won't speculate whether we're swimming in the same place or at least we woke up in the same place. Now, when I'm faced with these koans,

[58:14]

I think to myself, oh, goodness. What is here? Yeah, and I'm not a newcomer to Zen, so I sort of know what it's about. But really, it's how do you teach it? I mean, how do I say, I mean, I can feel it, but what do I say about it? And I realize I've got to let the koan douse me. Before I go into that, does anybody want to talk about anything? Yes. I don't think I explained it in Munster. I just said it in the school.

[59:35]

Well, possibly it doesn't, I don't know what it sounds like in German. And like a line of poetry, these things have an inner coherence. even though in English it's a bit clumsy, but still there's probably an inner coherence in the words. You'd have to discover it for yourself in German. But also, you can use it in English, but... English is unlikely to speak to you as intimately as German.

[61:00]

So it's quite possible, and it's for sure, that this phrase will mean nothing to many of you in English or German. I remember a student I had years ago who I gave the mantra koan, this very mind is Buddha. And it had been for me such a rich treasure, but I couldn't get him to find out how to open it up. It's just this kind of thing didn't work for him. For him what worked was doing the tea ceremony for some reason.

[62:01]

So I can't really give you these phrases so much as I can give you the process. And the process in Zen is to use the illness of the mind to cure the mind. To use the illness of the mind as medicine. I mean, Heidegger says in some place that the I indirectly quoted last night when Heidegger says that thinking is a dowry that pledges us to think that which can be thought. And we could say in Buddhism feeling is a endowment that an inheritance that pledges us to feel what can be felt.

[63:22]

And Buddha nature means we have realized that which can be realized. Patience. It's the second Paramita. That could be me down there. Not sure it's ringing. Is it actually ringing? Okay. But what I'm trying to say in this phrase, that is a precise physical act.

[64:28]

If it is going to work for you, you're going to have to discover it for yourself. Because there's nothing more to it than that. There's no explanation. Unless this whole seminar is an explanation. And maybe it will become useful to you in the future sometime. Okay. Something else? Yes. Yes. about the woman in the tea house. Why does she offer you the cookies if he knows the answer?

[65:29]

Maybe he needs the cookies more because he doesn't know the answer. You're compassionate. You want to say that in Deutsch? Yeah, well, if you run a tea shop, I'm going to get cookies from you. Because you won't ask me any questions. You'll just compassionately give me some cookies. That's called the granting way in Buddhism. You're a Buddha. Everyone's Buddha. Here, have some tea cookies. But the gathering way is you're not Buddha, nothing's Buddha, etc.

[66:34]

But you have to assume by the bizarreness of the question, that I'm sure she didn't ask all her customers that or she'd have gone out of business long before he arrived. You have to accept that a mutuality was established when they walked, when they saw each other. And she saw it before he did it, it seems. Okay. Okay.

[67:53]

So as I said, you have to let the koan douse you. Or divine you. And then I say to myself, what does that mean? And I realize I have to explain something. And... So I'll try to give you something. Now in our culture, if there was someone observing us, a Martian say, Such a person, such a Martian, would have to know, for example, that we take for granted, almost everyone takes for granted, the existence of an unconscious or the unconscious.

[69:10]

Or, for many people influenced by Jung, take for granted there's something called a collective unconscious. Or such an observer would have to know that for the most part we assume, all things considered, that people will act selfishly. The whole edifice of predictive economics rests on the idea that people will act selfishly if they can. If you don't assume that, economics wouldn't make any sense. And so there's certain things that you have to, when you're looking at a story like this, you have to sort of realize they took for granted that aren't familiar to us.

[70:20]

Okay. So, as I've said, I guess I can just write on this thing up here. We've gone out to get some paper, but... In the past, I've mentioned quite often that Buddhism comes out of some assumptions in early Indian thought. But our inheritance is three modes of continent mind, shall we say, three minds. And if I just say these to you, you're not going to see it as well as if I write it down, so I'm going to write it down.

[71:53]

And they are waiting, dreaming, Can you see this in the back? No. Is it the color or the light or the size? The size. Elbow grease. Waking. Waking. Okay. Drinking. So wachen, schlafen. And non-dreaming. Sleep.

[72:55]

Und traumloser Tiefschlaf. Now, since I can't... Thank you. Since I can't write very well, I'll just abbreviate. No, I'm dreaming sleep. Okay? Now, it was assumed that the idea was that if these three exist, obviously dreaming sleep is not exactly waking and so forth. And it was assumed or asked, could a state of mind exist which joins these three? And in various ways, all abundance is based on this. Do you have paper? Oh. Ah.

[75:03]

Can you see that? No? What can I do? This is almost draw, isn't it? I'm going to give up being a teacher. Waking, dreaming, sleep. and non-dreaming sleep. Okay. Now let's ask again, could there be a mind that joins these three or is separate from these three? All of Buddhism, basically, all of Buddhism is based on that question. And the answers to it. Now, when you start zazen, it exists over here somewhere in waking consciousness. So when you start doing Zazen, you're kind of doing Zazen in this territory.

[76:37]

And it takes quite a bit of time to move your Zazen out of this territory. You know, you count your breath, sit there, you wonder what you're going to do, you're wondering when the bell's going to ring. You know, that's all really a kind of waking consciousness. But after a while, Zazen begins to move down in between waking and dreaming. So then you have waking, Zazen, dreaming and non-dreaming, deep sleep.

[77:40]

You don't have to track it. Then a kind of movement begins to occur, to waking and to dreaming. As I told you the story, Ulrike wakes up and says, I'm diving into waking consciousness for a moment. This is an example of, through Zazen, Not only does Zazen begin to partake of waking and dreaming, but dreaming begins to partake of Zazen. Now, that's a major shift in practice and most people get there. Do you understand that at this point? Does anybody have anything you want to bring up for us?

[78:54]

Yeah. My experience is often that you... That what? That they think that you think. Yeah. But in fact, if you ain't something, there's a certain realization which you don't get what you usually think. So I think you cannot, I mean, this distinction is not so clear. So you think, you think, but actually you're doing something else all the time. That's true. That's true. Yeah. What is the date? The theory comes this weekend. Okay. Yeah, all right. Yeah. And do you notice this change? Yeah, just you notice it the way Eric just mentioned it. That's one way you notice it. Yeah? I think there's also a physiological change which you could probably explain with brain waves, which you take waking as beta waves, sasa as alpha, perhaps even beta waves, and the rest as delta waves.

[80:04]

Isn't that so? Well, it seems to be subtle. And I was part of those earlier experiments. in San Francisco of Joe Camillo, in which they measured breakaways. It's true. But I think that when I finish, you'll see that that's, that is too simple to put it that way. And it also tends to, to map it a little too much. But it's definitely true that there's different brain associated here. But even I don't, on the whole, that's not so it could be useful for practice. I'm sorry. Yes, so the question was whether one could associate certain brain waves with these specific conditions. And Roshi says that he even participated in these early experiments in San Francisco.

[81:08]

And in his opinion, the whole thing is not as easy as you might see if he continued with the explanation. One thing that I think that attaching yourself to this information you get back from, you know, brainwave machines, the various types they use, is it teaches you to notice particular patterns and to enter them faster. But nothing, no harm in doing it, probably, but I would never recommend it to somebody. My question was not explicitly the bandwidth, but the physiological change between these things.

[82:19]

I think this is what I'm really . Well, I agree with you very much. The brain of machines are not the answer. But the felt sense of the different physiological changes in each one of these . Could you say it in German? Could you say it in German, please? My question was not related to the brain cells, but actually more to what the brain cells emit in the body. That means with every state that one has here, we have a different physiological state in which it actually goes. I was basically made aware of that experience. Well, I'm using your question because what you bring up is just not you saying it, but also part of the lore of thinking about these things.

[83:33]

Michael, would you mind unless it's too cold for people to open at least the window at the back? I think it's getting... Is it okay for you? And to continue on this at the moment, the reason I wouldn't recommend it is that it teaches you certain gradations between states of mind. It's very important to learn those on your own. And if you learn them on your own, you begin a process where you find out there's hundreds of gradations, far finer tuning than a machine can do. Okay, anyone else?

[84:46]

Yeah. Is there an overlapping to imaginary relative absolute of this waking? Yeah, of course. But again, this question like that has come up a number of times recently. And in general, it's not very useful to map one thing on top of another. This is a system, but it's a very loose system.

[85:49]

So it's better to take each one of them and practice it, practice the skandhas fully, practice or see the three minds of daily consciousness, but not so much trying to put them together. If you practice each one independently, in you it will be put together. And as you said, after a while, zazen thinking even is a different kind of thinking if you're physiologically in the state of zazen, then it's almost the same kind of thinking in an awakening consciousness. So sasen begins as obvious to be the fourth category which fits in between these two.

[86:55]

But Zazen also then moves down and gets in here. So you begin to have waking, Zazen, dreaming consciousness, Zazen, and non-dreaming consciousness. And it begins to then work in these directions. Yes. Is non-dreaming still a formless? How can it be recognized? That's the problem. That's why Lungya blew the lamp out.

[88:23]

I mean really that's why Lungya blew the lamp out. Okay, so now this is of course still a little bit simple. And we'll take a break and I'll do one more. What really we have is a... How it's understood this works is you have a... Maybe I'll just draw it. You have a waking consciousness. And you have dreaming and non-dreaming. And you have dreaming and you have non-dreaming.

[89:27]

And this is where daydreaming comes in, is a kind of dreaming goes on right now. And these two and this non-dreaming consciousness also going on right now. The consciousness that's characteristic of deep sleep doesn't just occur in deep sleep. It's also here. But it's not identifiable. Now, this is a different way of looking at psychological dynamics than we have. I think that if we're going to understand Buddhism, we have to see that when you separate things into parts differently than we separate them, the parts interact differently.

[90:38]

As you said the other day, a seminar or two ago, there are different emergent properties. So there's a tendency of this to collapse into waking and this to collapse into waking. And likewise, Dreaming gets subordinated to the issues of your daily life, and everything goes into your waking life. And then you wonder what is meant by, where is half a cup of tea said?

[91:40]

If everything is collapsed into waking, our waking is too loaded and too rigid. So there's various ways to open this up. I saw the movie, The Living Buddha. Is that what it's called, the other day? And these guys were, for how many months were they? Three guys on this road, then walked six months or so. And they went many kilometers. And I remember there were some guys from the Chinese Zen teachers group who bowed their way from San Diego to Seattle.

[92:58]

And they'd take, I don't know how many, two. I think these guys in the movie took one step and bowed, one step and bowed. I think these guys took it the easy way. They took two steps and bowed. And I remember I used to have to drive from San Francisco up to Green Gals to give the lecture every Sunday. And I remember that every Sunday I had a lecture at Green Gulch and then I always had to drive there from San Francisco. And I remember that one Sunday I drove past them and they were still in Sausalito. I don't know, a Sunday or two later they were in Mill Valley. And then, I mean, it took me about a month, and I passed them each time, and they had only gone, I don't know, I don't know how many miles a day they made, but not very far.

[94:09]

It took them months, and they got to Seattle. I think it took them two years or something. Well, if you want to do that, that'll loosen this up a lot. Also, wenn ihr das vorhabt, also das wird das Ganze hier wesentlich auflockern.

[94:31]

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