I can't keep up with this, this is what you have a groupie for. Anyway, so, you know, and then I said, so, you know, I've never been able to be that high standard, sin person, you know, perfectly enlightened, who can, you know, pull it off. I've never been able to play the part. So, eventually, after a lot of years, I decided, that's me. And I decided, I decided to follow Suzuki's teaching, when you, are you, Zen, is Zen. And I decided, that I'm me, and that's good enough. And everybody laughed, and I said, and that's Zen. And, you know, and, and I said, and somehow you're letting me do this ceremony with you tomorrow, even though, you know, this is the way it is. And then I had this ceremony with them, they called it the Dharma Heritage, and I'm now one of them.

[01:02]

I wasn't sure I wanted to be, but. I did have, and I'm sorry for getting off the subject of cooking and Zen and these things, you know, but, I wasn't, you know, my teacher now is, you know, an old friend of mine, Mel Weitzman, who's the teacher, head priest at the Berkeley Zen Center, has done that since 1966 or something. And they just had, I think, their 40th anniversary, or 67, you know. And Mel was another, you know, student of Suzuki, or she's and, so he said, you know, you should go to this ceremony, and go to this weekend. So, I thought, I said, I'm not sure I want to be one of them. I told my neighbor about this, that I was going to the Zen teachers, and she said, and Ed, you know, I would guess that they're very sweet

[02:06]

and very earnest. And you know what, I have to go, when I go to conferences, it's with dentists. They are not sweet and earnest. You can be grateful that, you know, these are the people you're going to a conference with. So, I got to the conference, and they're very serious. You know, they don't laugh, and, you know, after this talk about, you know, you're setting yourself high standards, and people are very serious. I was kind of being, I'm trying to be a little funny, and, you know, yeah, I've never been able to meet that standard. So, I call what I'm doing and becoming being myself. And, you know, but, they went on and on with Robert Sharp, too. But anyway, Friday night, they showed my movie. And out of the 50 or so Zen teachers who were there, about 25 of them,

[03:09]

20 or 25 of them, you know, stayed to watch my movie. Some of them had friends who were going out to dinner. So, there's about 25 people, and they watched the movie. And I've seen my movie now about 35, 40 times. And every time is a little bit different. And basically, I figure it's like, what's going on in the room? I know what's going on in the room. And I was a little worried about that because the hardest audience to watch the movie with usually is Zen students. The Mill Valley Film Festival, 400 people. And they're sitting there, and you can tell people at times are crying, and they're just listening so intently. And they're laughing. And we saw it in the city, and my next door neighbor, Jennifer, was sitting in front of me, and she was laughing as loud as anybody in theater at my, you know, emotional, you know, things. And every time she laughed, I just felt so much love in my heart. Because I know how much she loves me. And I could just feel it

[04:13]

every time she'd laugh. You know, my foolishness. But you watch it with Zen students, and they're like... And it feels like so much judgment. You can't tell. But they're not laughing. And you can't tell, like, what they're thinking about this. And you start to feel like, is it okay for me to be me? Uh-oh. So I was a little worried about the Zen teachers. And sometimes I've watched a movie like in Austria, and they're all sitting there like... What the fuck is this? So you never quite know. So I watched this with a whole range of reactions. And then, you know, I've watched it, like, with the people who are in the movie. And it's just so enjoyable.

[05:13]

You know, oh, look at that! So I was worried about what the Zen teachers would think. And I watched that movie, and I've never seen myself as such a kind, sweet, tender-hearted person as watching a movie with that group of people. And it was exactly what my neighbor had said. They're kind, they're sweet. And I saw such a sweet person. And such an earnest and sincere person when I watched the movie with that group of people. So I thought, okay, I can be one of them after all. Even if they are a bit somber. Interesting. So... I did have some things I might talk about tonight, but I'm also curious what you might be interested in. We got off on rocks and...

[06:18]

You get your name on the back in case you forget. Or something, you know. Of course, you have to be able to read kanji. Longevity, Mountain, Peaceful Sea. This is my teacher. And Mel wrote on the back of this one. And this is a Zen circle. And in the middle, this was in the movie, the cow eating patience grass. You might want to change your diet. And if you eat enough patience grass, then you start to generate the milk or cream of nirvana. So... We'll see about that. But my name, Longevity, Mountain, Peaceful Sea, Suzuki Ueshiba said, you will be like a mountain surrounded by a sea of peaceful people. That's where you come in. The Peaceful Sea. But anyway, do you have some interests in particular? I'll go ahead and talk about something. But if you have something you're interested in tonight,

[07:19]

we'll move it that way. Or if you have some comments about this afternoon, etc. I'm interested in that, too. How do you find what's different in each class? How do you find what's different in each class? You're doing Putin for your life. This isn't the first class you've done. No. Well, the way I approach things in Yale are all different this way. But, you know, I'm more of a... what's called an intuitive rather than a sensate. Say you walk in the room and you feel like, what's going on? It's like what I was telling you about the movie. I'm not watching the movie. I'm feeling what's going on in the room. And what's going on with the people in the room. And then I'm trying to talk to them.

[08:21]

And I'm trying to sense what's... And part of my studying that is to notice what's going on with me. And I cannot believe over the last few years especially if I'm feeling... And my story about Sharon the other afternoon. I'm feeling anxious and Sharon grabs my hand and pulls it up to her chest and she says I'm anxious too. And I go like, oh my god your heart is pounding away. And she says, yeah I would guess that we're all pretty anxious about the class beginning. And then everybody relaxes. So you name what's in the room. Or you talk to what's in the room. And so I see if I can sense what's in the room. And probably that's what's going on with me. So if I start thinking, like a few years ago I was in a zendo sitting and meditating and I was thinking

[09:25]

I started feeling like, this is stupid. I hate this. Is that me? No, I'm guessing that there's people sitting in the room. I don't know, how do you do this? What's going on here? I'm not getting anywheres. So then I gave a little impromptu talk and I said, you know, Suzuki said that Zen is feeling their way along in the dark. And a couple other things and then the whole room settled and then I wasn't thinking like, you know, this isn't working for me. I don't know what I'm doing. Then I felt like I'm okay about not knowing what I'm doing because I said that to the room. So it turns out, as far as I can tell, the more you that actually a lot of what's going on with any of us is what's going on in the room. And then it's, and then, and I also studied this in terms of

[10:26]

hands-on healing. One of the things that happens in hands-on healing, you can start to think like, oh my God, I don't know what I'm doing. Suppose the person I'm touching notices that. Is that that you don't know what you're doing or is that the person you're touching feels uncertain about what they're doing? So in hands-on healing, it's suggested that you err on the side of just assume that whatever's going on is the person you're touching. Do not identify with anything that's being you. But that also doesn't mean to to make it real what's going on with the other person. Make it real in the sense of like, I know what to do to fix you or I know what to do to heal you. But it's to be aware of it and then begin to, you know, the classic thing in Buddhism is that you begin to you know, relate to your anger rather than

[11:31]

identifying with it. Relate to your sadness rather than identifying with it. Because the tendency is like sadness arises and then you start to say I'm sad. But notice how profound that I. All you've been able to notice is the sadness. But then you have a story. I'm sad. What reason, and then people say, why are you sad? And so there was a reason. And you could do something about the reason and when you could do something about the reason then you wouldn't have to be sad anymore. So you identify with the experience as being real and then you need to do something about it. And a lot of the times if you're sad then you can be sad about being sad. You say I'm sad and then you start to be sad and then I'm anxious and then you can be even more anxious. And then you can be anxious about being anxious and you can be scared about being scared and you can be angry about being angry and then you can be angry about being angry

[12:32]

about being angry. And then you can be depressed about being angry. And you're identifying with the, what's going on as you is something you need to do something about. And so So part of being mindful, or like what we're doing this week, is like, let's study what's happening and instead of identifying with it, let's begin to relate to it. So what do you do when you're relating to someone who's angry? And if someone is you, then do you get angry at yourself for being angry? Do you get sad at yourself? Do you berate yourself? What do you do in relationship with somebody who's angry? And then you can begin to relate to, rather than reacting from, what's going on in your life. And then, you know, sometimes you can't, you can't, you know, I consider myself a work

[13:34]

in progress, I lose it sometimes, what have you, so, but, you know, that's the aim. Start to relate to things. So, anyway, I'm endeavoring to sense what's going on in the room and then talk to you. Talk to what I'm sensing in the room. And then, you know, I get a little, I get a few verbals now and again, to see if it's making sense. So that's not, so, people do different things, but that way, that's very much in accord with the, you know, improv. Show up. What's happening in the room? Talk about it. You know, talk to it. I mentioned to you that, you know, I have this friend, Rob Poynton, and Rob is from England. I met him in a cooking class I did in England, but he's married to a woman who lives in Spain and he has now three boys. One or two of them I did a baby blessing for.

[14:34]

And he met Gary, who lives in Portland, Gary Hersh, and later in the weekend, we have a t-shirt that Gary designed, so I'll remind you about Gary, but Gary does improv theater. And then he met, and then Rob went to meet with him to find out about t-shirts and they decided to start an improv company together, teaching businesses how to do improv theater. So they largely are hired by advertising companies, but they've also been hired by, I think, FedEx and, you know, Nike, you know, to train executives to do more improv rather than business. In other words, when somebody says something, don't just reject it. You accept what they say and say, yes, and, instead of, no, that will never work, you say, yes, and, yes, and we could this, and yes, and we could that. And you build on things and you really endeavor not to accept rather than blocking. And you know, there's various things that they teach people to do in their improv classes

[15:43]

and the various understandings they have of how improv is helpful for people, whether it's in business or wherever it is. But one time, Gary, they have these contests, you know, who can hold the audience the longest wins the prize. And then the audience is empowered, like, with their red flags, but they don't need red flags even. But whenever the audience wants to, they can, like, start booing or hissing or get up and walk out. And if you can keep the audience quiet the longest, you win. And one of the, another one of the rules of improv is, you know, start anywhere. And so one time, when it came Gary's turn, he sat apparently on the stage and there was somebody that left an old Coke bottle and he sat there looking at it. And he looked at it with enough interest that he held the audience for, like, five minutes, wondering, like, what is he going to do with that Coke bottle? So that's, you know, this is unusual.

[16:51]

But anyway, so that's just using what is there. So I try to use what's here. And every group is a little different that way. Last year, last year there was one woman who was about 30, and she decided, she came and talked to me, like, Tuesday morning, I think it was, and she told me, you're way too critical and judgmental. And I wasn't in my, at my best at that point. Oh, is that right? Tell me more about that. And what are we going to do about it? Shall we report me to the Zen authorities here? They seem to allow me to be here like I'm a Zen. And I said, oh, really, so I'm too critical and judgmental? And she said, yes, and it's not Zen. It's just not Zen.

[17:53]

Okay, so what are we going to do about this? So I studied this for like a couple months after the course. You know, what do you say to somebody who presents you with something like this? Because I didn't know what to say, you know, to the room in that case. And, you know, somebody suggested to me, for instance, you can say, you know, you can say, uh-huh, and what's the most difficult part about that for you? I thought that was a great one. It's just another way of saying, I think this is yours and not mine. And tell me more about that. But it's saying it in such a simple, clever way. Huh? She's just spoken to me. And I asked the group. I said, why didn't you come to the group this morning? Oh, I want to talk to you. So I let her do that. So that was a mistake, you see.

[19:00]

Because then the whole group, we went around the group and nobody else was like, you know, you are serious. I'm so angry about it. People must be having a pretty good time. So anyway. But I think, you know, people respond differently. And, you know, and I'm interested, that's what I'm interested in, is talking to what I sense. And meeting what I sense. And this is part of this, you know, my, it's implicit. Also, you know, what I've been talking about cooking is the same way I'm trying to endeavor to meet people and connect. Because the more standard approach to classes and lectures is that you come in with a prepared material.

[20:03]

I have this material that you don't have. And now I'm going to share it with you so that you can have it too. And if you listen carefully and follow my directives, then you can be a status just like me. And you can be somebody who's full of it. Like I'm full of it. Now, I don't know, there are uses for that. You know, from time to time. But I'm more the kind of person who, you know, I'm less of an authority that way. So I'm going to come in and sort of see what I can talk, you know, actually meet in what's going on in the room, rather than I've got some stuff that I think is really great that I want to share with you. You know, I don't know. So that's what I try to sense or ask you. And it's a difference between what an impromptu leader is, high status and low status.

[21:05]

And Suzuki Roshi, or, you know, people who are really well developed and the people you really like, are people who can be high status or low status. So Suzuki Roshi would sometimes say, I'm not a very good Zen teacher. I'm sorry for you. You know, I would like you to have a much better Zen teacher than me. I'm doing the best I can. And then we'd all go, oh no, [...] but you're such a great Zen teacher. Oh, you're so good. And, you know, but a day or two later you might say, I am Buddha. And you are Buddha too. Look, to say you're Buddha, that's, you know, and there's a difference in your body gestures and everything, you know. I am Buddha. And I will tell you what Buddha has to say. And I'm not sure that if you scratch your head, that's low status.

[22:08]

And now you stand so you, and it turns out that high status, low status is good in different groups, in different settings and with different people. And this is one of the things Rob talks about in his book on improv theater. He says in France it's a very high status culture. We're French and you're not. My daughter lived in France for nine years, so she understands this and she can do French now and again, you know. Oh, you Americans are just so uneducated and you just don't know how to think. You know, she came back here and went to UC Santa Cruz and was bragging on Americans, you know, because they just, they don't know how to think. And the girls are just interested in clothes. And in France, you know, they have like, politicians are talking on the television and, you know, everybody knows about this stuff and whatever, you know.

[23:13]

Anyway, so, and so Rob says, if you go and you want to do a presentation to the French, you better be high status. And you better come in and say, now as my teacher Suzuki Roshi used to say, and you quote authorities. And you call in the people who know and that you're one of the people who know and you, by calling in the people who know and quoting them and sharing your knowledge, or your experience. Now, when I was at the Zen Center, you know, so then you can, and you can, so then I get to do knowing and high status, you see. And then, oh, okay, I'll, okay. If you have something to tell me, okay, you know, I'll listen. And then at some point, I switch over, I can switch over to, then you can switch over to being low status, but you have to, if you're going to talk to the French, you want to get, otherwise they're going to dismiss you right off.

[24:15]

Not a stupid Englishman. You know, who they've been putting down for centuries. Who has nothing, who has nothing, you know, very good to offer. If you go to Albania, you say, they're so unsure of themselves that if you pull high status, then they're even less sure of themselves and they're not going to feel like they can do anything, even theater sports. So in Albania, you say, you know, I don't, I'm not sure that I know how to work here. And, you know, maybe you could tell me something about Albania, what it's like here. So you don't sort of go coming and quoting the authorities. And he said, in Spain, he said, they're both high status and low status, so ideally, you'll go out drinking with everybody the night before and telling, you know, dirty jokes. And then you come in the next morning, high status. It's just sort of like what the Japanese do, you know. You know, like in, I was, I went to this Zen center in Germany, Zen Eisenburg, with Nakagawa Roshi.

[25:18]

He's got these dark black eyebrows, kind of rectangular across his head. And I thought, oh God, going to a Zen center. I'm a priest, but I'm not a real priest. I'm just a kind of American wannabe and my robes don't really fit. And you can't, you know, Westerners just, you just cannot wear the Japanese robes the way the Japanese can. We've had things here, like there's 30 Japanese here and there's Westerners. And the Japanese, they look like Zen priests. They're walking around, they got on their cases and we're walking around and sort of like, who are these ragamuffin, you know, Zen wannabe. You can't do it. You know, we don't have Japanese bodies and we haven't grown up with it and they're just, and stuff to close, you know, we don't have the right cloth and whatever. It just doesn't work. And for the Japanese, you know, that's Zen. We're Zen and you're not.

[26:19]

So I was worried about going to Zen Aizenbu. And I got there and they were very gracious and we had lunch and then after lunch they said, now we just finished this new garden outside and they had this room that had, the whole side opens onto this garden and this rock that's about three tons or something. And there's a mountain that kind of comes up and there's these rocks and it's, they just spent like months putting in the rocks and trees that go in different directions and bushes and stone and gravels, you know. And he said, well, let's have dessert out here. So I said, okay. So then he said, after lunch, he came up to me and he said, now, you know, why don't we get together a little bit and go for a walk? I think first you should have a nap. We all nap here after lunch. Oh, sweet, okay. And then sure enough, about four he came by

[27:23]

and then we went for a walk up the hill and he was telling me a little about the place and, you know. And then after dinner he said, now we have Sazen tonight, but after Sazen I want to play my shakuhachi for you. And we'll sit out by the garden and I will play my shakuhachi. And after I play the shakuhachi, we will drink sake together. So we sit out there after Sazen, so Sazen. Then he comes out, he's got his shakuhachi and he's got his Japanese music things and he's, oh, and the rocks in the garden start, you know, like ooh, moving. And I hadn't even had any sake yet, but just listening to the shakuhachi music. And then he gets out his bowl of sake. And this is so Japanese, and some people who have been through this, they know the language already.

[28:25]

I was telling some of them this and they said, this is a very special bowl of sake, right? Oh, yeah. This is very special sake. I've been saving this for a very special occasion. This sake is aged in the snow. So it's only made a certain time of year when it can be aged in the snow. And it's got this foil wrapping on it, you know. So then he opens it up and he starts, you know, we start drinking sake. And then we finished a whole bottle of sake between the two of us. And by now it's like 10.30, 11 o'clock, you know, and as we drink the sake, his English is getting better and better. And I am just feeling so connected to him. See, this is a whole low-status thing, you know. And I'm just feeling like, oh, I just feel so good being with you.

[29:28]

And I just feel such a connection with you. Next morning, you know, 3.30 or 4 or something, you know, the sound's gone from the back of the sundial. And, you know, and then, you know, it's almost like it didn't happen, but even though it's all very formal, now I have this incredible connection with him. Because we had this other time when we drank sake together. It's the first time I've done this Japanese man drinking sake together thing and bonding. Anyway, it's all very curious how we, you know, connect with one another. What do we do to connect with one another? And there's some people who are really good at high status, and that's all they're good at. And they do not know how to do low status. And some Zen people are like that. And then it becomes very challenging.

[30:33]

So Richard Bigg is like, you know, the former abbot of Zen Center, to my mind, is somebody who, and, you know, he knows how to do high status. So I am... So enough of me talking about me, now why don't you talk about me? One made my way the right way. If I'd like your opinion, I'll tell you what it is. And when we finally sat him down, at this conference, you know, this board meeting where we said, will you come and listen to what we have to say? Are you willing to do that? Will you just take three minutes? I'd like you to listen. Is that something you can do? Sure. Okay. We're all sitting there waiting. Everybody in that room has practiced Zen for more than 15 years. And Bigg Richard only practiced 12 when he first became abbot. A lot of, 15 people,

[31:40]

15 years of Zen. And Bigg Richard never practiced Zen the way that we had. Where, you know, practice periods, says Shane's, he never did a practice period. Except for when he was in charge and didn't have to follow the schedule. Anyway, we went around the... So he came into the room. He sits down at this round glass coffee table in the middle of the room and starts talking. Does that tell you anything? You see? And we're sort of sitting there like, I thought he agreed to come here and listen to what we had to say. And we're all being polite. Until Yvonne Rand was there. And Yvonne is somebody else who's rather good at high status. But not as good as Bigg Rishi.

[32:41]

But she interrupted and she said, excuse me, Bigg Rishi. And he stopped talking. And she said, we invited you here to listen to what we had to say. Now is that something you're willing to do or not? He said, oh, okay. And then she said, and why don't you sit in a chair like the rest of us and sit kneeling down on the floor? If you would be so kind. And sit at the same level as everybody else and just be one of us, would you? And then we went around the room and the message was, you don't listen very well. We don't feel heard when we talk. We feel dismissed. And then, what did he say? If I don't listen very well, it's because you haven't taught me. I don't have problems. And if I have a problem, it's your fault. That's high status.

[33:45]

And I've known a few high status, consistently high status people in my life. And, you know, I've thought about this recently in my life. Is it possible to be friends? Some of my girlfriends have been high status. And I think if I hang in there long enough and behave well enough, they will finally let me truly be their friend. It's never going to happen unless they're going to be able to be at some point low status. And so if people are consistently high status, you can't actually connect with them. You can't actually meet them. And you can't actually be friends. You can study with them and you can learn from them and, you know, they're sweet people in a lot of ways, but you can't connect. You can't just be friends. I don't know if this makes sense to you. You can know some people like this. And they're also people I love. You know, Beggarochi and I have other friends that are pretty high status.

[34:50]

And as I say, they're ex-girlfriends now. They're all ex now, the high status ones. Yeah, you need to. But, you know, the people that are really fun are the people, you know, like sometimes you're high, sometimes you're low, and so Beggarochi said that's them too. Sometimes the teacher bests the student, sometimes the student bests the teacher. I told you that story, right? About how he said, you think I'm the teacher and you're the student. That's a mistake. You think I have things to tell you that you don't know. That's wrong thinking. You're also the teacher, I'm also the student. And that's his way of, you know, he's trying to say, you know, step up. This shows up also in parent-child therapy. Parents who are going to only be the parents

[35:53]

and always be the parent and then when does the child ever get to be the parent? A friend of mine said at one point when his kids were little and he has three kids like under seven years old and they're running around the house and he needs to go someplace. So what do you do? You try to be the parent? You try to control them? Shut up, get this together. We need to leave, you know, quiet down. And finally he, you know, he didn't know what to do and finally he just said, HELP! HELP! And they all came running and started hugging him. That's him being the child. And then even though they're under seven years old they all get to be the parent. And if you're not the parent, if you're suddenly in the kid's role then they'll be the parent. And healthy relationships are like that. Sometimes the parent is the helpless one and the kids are the parent and then they grow up and they know how to parent. And otherwise they keep looking to the parent

[36:58]

to be the parent. Where's the parent? They haven't gotten it. You know, they need to be the parent sometimes. They need to take care of themselves sometimes. They can't always be looking for mom or dad or somebody to take care of it for them. And therapy is like that. One of the classic stories I read was a woman who wrote a long piece about how she was working with a woman who had a history of cutting herself. You know, self-mutilation. And you know, it's very tempting, you see. The woman says, well nobody's ever been there for me and blah blah blah. And, you know, the therapist is very tempting, like, okay, I will be the one, finally, who makes all the difference in your life. So the therapist decides, I will be the one who makes all the difference in your life.

[37:58]

And so she gives the woman her home phone. Call me anytime. So whenever the woman, the therapist is there for her and responding to things And after a year or 18 months or something, the woman is self-mutilating. And in the hospital, and the therapist goes and says, was there anything that we did that was at all helpful? I don't know. And well, what happened? She said, you were just always so perfect and always there for me. And, you know, I could never imagine being like that. And so it's like, well, if that's what I have to live up to, to be that good, I can't do that. But if I saw you being weak or not wanting to talk to me, then I could be me. So there's this kind of illusion

[39:02]

that some Zen people, and it's not just Zen people, but people present of, I'm masterful, I'm the one who knows, you don't, and I will tell you what you need to know. And it's not my problem, it's yours. You know, Marsha Rosenberger who does non-violent communication says, we have a hierarchical society. So if the person in authority has trouble understanding you, you have an enunciation problem. If you have, if the audience has trouble understanding me, you have an auditory problem. So if I can't understand you, it's your problem. You have a problem with your enunciation. If you can't understand me, you have an auditory problem. So this is, you know, so it's that. And then it's very hard to, like, be friends with these, when somebody's like that. And we do well to be able

[40:02]

to be high status, and, you know, at times, you know, tell others what to do, and other times we have sort of low status, we don't know what's going on, can you help me? And to have a kind of, a little bit of a repertoire of behaviors that's so interesting. Does this make sense? Lynn? Did you have your hand up? Yeah, I just, I had to ask you, I remember after reading the book, outside the door, I wondered, I knew he went on to somewhere in the southwest, to have a community. I've always wondered, did he ever get it? I don't know. I don't know that he did. But he has, you know, changed over the years. So he's gotten something.

[41:05]

I think he's, and, you know, the last couple of times I've seen him, I actually feel like I can be, in a way, friends with him. And we actually can joke about some of these things. So it may be that he's gotten it. We were actually down here, in Tuscaloosa in 2001, I think, which had been 83, almost 20 years since he left. And we, there were seven of us as Ecclesiastical Disciples, and we kind of had a good time here. And then when I saw him in Europe, another friend of mine, Vanya, who's a priest in Europe, we, Vanya and I were, I was visiting Vanya, in Lucerne, and Vanya said, well Bakerish is having a weekend workshop here, why don't we go to the end of it,

[42:07]

and then we can go out to lunch with him afterwards. So we went to the end, and Bakerish was giving a lecture. So we went into the lecture, and we listened to the lecture. Afterwards we went to lunch, and at some point Bakerish says to me, so Ed, did you, you know, I was talking about cooking at one point, probably because you were there, so what did you think about that? And I said, I think I fell asleep during that part. And he said, what? You're still falling asleep? And I said something like, I prayed so, and he said, me too. So he did the high status shame thing, and I didn't fall for it. I just said, yeah, I think so. I was like, yep, I'm good. I fall asleep. Okay. He said, yeah, me too. So there's something that's shifted there.

[43:12]

And partly, I've shifted to where I don't mind if he does that to me. I don't go like, oh God, he's caught me at it again, falling asleep. How do I defend myself? I need to get better. So I don't lose my status when he does his status. And at some point, he's now gracious enough to go like, oh, okay. And, you know, he, you know, we've all been through a lot, and I don't see him much anymore, so I think he's a different person now. But, you know, on another level, of course, we're who we are, but I think he's pretty different. He finally did divorce Virginia, who lives here in Marin, not here in Marin, but up in Marin. And then he started his center

[44:13]

first in the Southwest, and then he started a center in Creston in Southern Colorado. And then he also moved to Europe and started a center in Europe, in Southern Germany, near Switzerland, Johannesaft. And then, you know, he fell in love with one of his students, who happened to be a German princess. And, you know, there's about 38 years age difference, you know, roughly 60 and 30. And he ended up marrying a princess. And he had another little girl, so it's his third daughter. His oldest daughter is now somewhere around 50, 49 or 50. And then he has another daughter in her early 30s. And now his daughter in Europe is now 6 or 7. And at lunch, then, he was telling us,

[45:15]

he said, you know, he had been talking about his daughter on the phone. And he said that, and she was 3, and he was telling us, she said, Daddy, where are you? And he said, I'm here. And she said, you are not here. You're there. And he, you know, was admitting to, like, gosh, you know what? Maybe I haven't been there for people. It was a whole different kind of thing about, you know, at least to us, who aren't necessarily his students, or, you know, we're all people who knew him, you know, for years, that, you know, maybe there's ways in which, you know, being the Zen teacher the way I was, I wasn't there for my family, I wasn't there for my kids. You know, maybe I should do this a little differently.

[46:20]

Some kind of, some kind of self-reflection like that that was actually, you know, shared with us. But that's the kind of thing where you feel like, oh, I can connect with you. If you just want to be, you know, a brilliant Zen teacher and completely enlightened and, you know, and you're better than we are. Because there was a whole period of time where people told stories, every story about going out with him, and then Paul Dyscott tells a story and of meeting somebody, you know, some pretty brilliant people, and afterwards Dick Hershey said, Paul, you know what? It's really great sometimes to meet people who are so brilliant like that. You know, people who are almost as brilliant as you are. And yet, you know, we all

[47:25]

admired him, and we wanted to do well for him and for the Zen Center because of him. You know, all kinds of stuff. So it's pretty interesting. But I'm much more interested in, you know, relating. And what I understand of connection is that you connect when, you know, when dad says help and the kids all come, there's connection. And that's where there's a chance where the status shifts. Or when, you know, you can say, you know, I'm having trouble. I'm so upset. I'm so stressed. Oh, you know, me too. Let's see what we want to do together, even though that's, you know, rather than like, I've got the answer for you. And you don't know I do, and you should just do what I tell you. It's such a strange business.

[48:26]

But that's so much a part of our culture that we think that's the way to behave and that's what we should get better at is being in that high status position and giving out advice to people. I find it strange. Further to that point, I'm going to ask you if you are closer to a source of great teaching than anybody I've met for a very long period of time. So, as you look back and reflect on your life, how much different do you think or in what ways would you have been different had you lived a more typical, traditional, mainstream life and not chosen this path? How would you be different today? I'm not sure I'd be alive. I just don't know. I'm just not sure.

[49:33]

You know, I was and still am in some ways an extremely wounded person. And you know, one time here at Tassajara when we were sitting in the old Zendo, which is where the student union is and it burned at some point in the 70s. And I was sitting there and it was a shame and those were the days when I couldn't sit still and had involuntary movements. And if I stopped the movement here, it would be here. And if I stopped the movement here, it would be somewhere else. And I couldn't stop the movement everywhere and for a while they wouldn't allow me to sit in the Zendo because I could make the whole corner of the room shake. It was disturbing to the students. And I did that for years. At least two years. And then if I calmed down and relaxed and got quiet, come and hit you with a stick. And then I'd just stay awake. And

[50:40]

if you relax you start to fall asleep, you get hit. That's a pretty standard from hyper energetic to going to sleep and not much in between. And part of what happens with practice is you find that there isn't in between being extremely hyper and falling asleep. And the third day at the end of the third day right before dinner the last period before dinner I put my knees up and I put my hands around my knees put my head down. I could actually do this then. I gained about 50 pounds since then. I was 130 pounds or 125. So I could actually put my head on my knees. And within less than a minute Copanchino was there. He was one of the people teaching with Suzuki Rishi. And he said let's go outside and

[51:43]

as soon as we got to the door the tears were just I couldn't see he said hold my arm I'm going to take you to your room. I lived in the first cabin across the bridge in the back and he got me to my room and said lie down and then he started rubbing me it's ok, it's ok, don't worry it's alright and I started just sobbing and this is where your arms and legs are just flat and under control huge energy that's one of the ways to release trauma and you don't you don't tend to get those experiences just haphazardly in your life you tend to need some kind of context for it some kind of practice or some kind of therapy

[52:47]

and that went on for like 50 minutes and that's just the beginning later on I went to a hands on hand position and I sobbed for 2 hours and not just sobbing I mean raging and screaming and bawling and I don't know what I would have done to survive if I hadn't been to the sin center and met Suzuki Roshi and Suzuki Roshi and I'm not the only one and there used to be a rock outside of that cabin 1B and it's now up outside the gate just this side of the gate if you're going out the gate it's on the right and they positioned it by the tree there it was just moved 2 years ago and that was the doorstep for 1B that's because he moved it there he said I'm going to

[53:50]

there was a pile of rocks outside I piled up rocks because there was no step the doorstep was 18 inches up I piled up rocks to make steps and he said one day he was on the bridge looking and he said we pile up rocks like that in Japan over graves it doesn't look very good and then a few days after that somebody said do you know that rock outside the office I said yeah I'm asking Paul just go move that to your cabin this afternoon to be your doorstep is that ok I said that rock people sit on that rock every day people get their mail in the office they take it out, they sit on that rock to read their mail, people are going to miss the rock he said we'll get another one and that rock showed up on my doorstep and that's like somebody find them a stair for me

[54:51]

and nobody's been there for me and every day we get out of my cabin and step on this rock and then I'm you know for years I told you I couldn't talk to people and and and when you are like that you know

[55:54]

it's not like you dare spend time with the teacher like you just wouldn't want to bother them you are such scum you wouldn't want to have that scum around them and burden them with the scum that you are and he didn't mind And I'm not, again, I'm not the only one. One of my favorite stories about Suzuki Ueshi, you know it's 10 o'clock, we need to get going. I don't know about you, but I'm getting up early in the morning. Probably this goes back to precepts and rules and behavior, but David Chadwick, I was the cook here and David was the head of the dining room. And David is, if any of you know David Chadwick, he's like one of a kind, they're all one of

[56:55]

a kind, but David is one of the most social people I've known, most of them are extroverted. Very unusual for a Zen student to be that extroverted. One day, just a few years ago, I sat on one of the benches or rocks or something right at the end of the office here. Everybody who came by, he talked to, they talked to him, he talked to them. I don't have anything to say to any of them. So David used to staff the dining room, because we were so short-staffed, David would wander around just there during the afternoon and meet guests and start talking to them and say, you know, I need to go set up the dining room, why don't you come and work with me and we can go on talking. And then eventually, you know, they'd sit down for dinner, he'd serve them, and then by the end of the meal, he'd be sitting down and having dessert and drinking wine with them, and then he'd go back to their cabins after cleanup to drink scotch or brandy or something and weigh on into the night, and then he'd miss them when he's out on service

[57:57]

and breakfast, and this is against the rules. And so David was on the staff, you know, the senior staff here, which is the director, the assistant director, the treasurer, the head of the guest season, you know, the work leader, whatever. And I was on the staff, I was never always too busy to go to work meetings. After breakfast, there'd be a meeting with the senior staff, what's the situation in this cabin? It's called the chausson. So one, and then you'd sit quietly, and then somebody's, the ingenue's making tea, and then pass around this tray, and you take your cup, and then you pass the tray, and when everybody has their cup and their tea and their little cookie or something, perhaps, then you bow and pick up your cup and have a sip of tea, and it's as if she says something. Maybe somebody's coming to visit, or, you know, he may have something, or he may not have something to say, and then at some point he'll say, would you like to talk, is there

[58:58]

something you want to talk about? So this one morning, the director said, Suzuki, David's sitting there with alcohol in his breath. Hasn't been in service, breakfast, community cleaning, shows up the chausson, and the director says, Suzuki, what do we do with somebody who's always breaking the rules, staying up and drinking alcohol at night with the guests, and missing morning meditation practice? What do we do? And Suzuki hesitated and paused, and he said, everyone is making their best effort. And the director says, but don't we need to do something? We can't just let people break the rules. Don't we need to, you know, do something about it? And he said, you know, sometimes people are following the spirit of the rules, even though

[60:09]

they're not following the letter of the rules. And the director said, wouldn't it be better if you followed not just the spirit, but the rules? And Suzuki said, yes, that would be best. And it just blows me away, and I'll tell you probably why in a minute, but of all of Suzuki's students, David Chadwick, you know, who could never follow a schedule, and, you know, became an alcoholic, you know, needed to go to rehab, you know, has had, you know, various heart conditions, made it his life's task to preserve Suzuki's legacy. So, Suzuki actually saw something, you know, and he didn't go by what you know, you know,

[61:13]

they only do. And David Buggs had been saying it for years, too, you know, we need to have Suzuki, we need to collect all of Suzuki's lectures, which are sometimes on these little, like, you know, one-and-a-half by two-and-a-half inch little mini-cassette things. And so then he got, at the time, all the lectures were put on digital reel-to-reel, not digital, but reel-to-reel tapes by Mark Watts, hired Mark Watts, and then David started collecting and archiving stories about Suzuki, and collecting the lectures, and finding the original handwritten notes that went into Zen Mind, Venus Mind, you know, all kinds of stuff, and now there's a Suzuki Archive. That's because of David. That's because he wasn't booted. And, you know, several years later, I was the head teacher here, that's about 1967, with David, and I was the head teacher in the spring of 84, and there was a student here, James,

[62:18]

and the officers of the monastery came to me one day and said, well, James has been, you know, smoking marijuana, and turning on the other students. So I called, I had James come and talk to me, and James said, you know, my mom sent me a care package for my birthday, a bunch of drugs, what was I supposed to do? You know, I couldn't take all those drugs myself, I thought it would be a good practice to share with others, and, you know, I'm not Suzuki Archive, and I tried to say, you know, I think it's important for James to stay here, and the officers of the monastery kept saying, you know, no, James needs to leave, we can't, you know, have this thing happening here at Tuscarora, and, you know, I probably should have called the city center

[63:20]

and talked to some of the other city center people back in San Francisco, but, you know, James was a former state person, went back to San Francisco, back to the streets, and was dead within two years, and that's what, you know, could have happened to me. And people say, well, you know, he doesn't have to do that, he might make it, but I think this would have been the best place for him, and we should have been able to, you know, tolerate some less-than-perfect following of the rules. So, we haven't been doing this, but I'd like to do a little chant with you, again,

[64:32]

it's a very simple chant, it's just a syllable, ho, which is Japanese for dharma, or teaching, and it's a nice word because it's just an open ho sound, and I do it sometimes, often, as a way to just, we all chant together for about a minute, and then we let the sound wash through, so as a way to share our hearts with one another, and then to let the sound, you know, share our prayers, and send our prayers and blessings out into the world in merit of our practice together, and send the sound out, our prayers out to the world. Okay? Okay. Okay.

[65:40]

Okay, thank you. So, a couple of you with flashlights, you know, need to go out last, because people who go out first can see their way with the lights from in here. Once the lights are out here, then it's kind of dark going down the steps, and the first part of the walkway, before we get to lights. You know, I don't know, the chairs were here, why don't we put the cushions away. Okay? Okay. Okay. Okay.

[67:11]

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