There are places that you, you know, that, so to speak, the dark night of the soul, or the dark night of the spirit. And there's nothing to be done. There's only weathering it. But then there's all these do-good people who take some antidepressants, get over it, you know, and this is a chemical problem. You know, there's such a thing as brain chemistry, you know. And so people are going to give you all of their wonderful advice, and then every time they give you some advice, it's sort of like telling you you're wrong to have the problem you have. If you were just following, you know, some good advice like I'm going to give you, you wouldn't have this problem. So in a way, at some there's a point where, you know, when you start giving answers to people who are suggesting certain encouragements, you know, you can be devaluing the fact that they're having the kind of problem they have.

[01:08]

There's some problems to our lives that are, you know, it's just like, and that's why at some point we say sit with it, you know, just sit. And there's nothing to be done about it. It cannot be fixed. And at some point you, you know, you, do I need to put this on? Is this OK? Well, OK. March is becoming my Hussam. Hussam is, you know, Rumi's scribe. This is the modern way of being a scribe. So anyway, at some point, I don't, you know, what can you say? I mean, I, so I, I kind of, you know, lean one way, lean the other, give a suggestion or two. But it's so curious. I mean, I once spent, you know, had about six sessions with somebody who was depressed.

[02:11]

And over the course of the six sessions, you know, we talk about all kinds of things. And all kinds of, I'm making all kinds of suggestions over the course of six sessions, over the course of three months or whatever it is. And it's sort of like he's still in the same place and he's not doing any of the things I suggest. So it's, so was that useful? I don't know. And at some point, you know, something sits inside of us, not of our own doing, particularly. It's the same sort of thing that people say about alcoholics. You can't talk them into sobering up. Occasionally, you can intervene and cart them off to a rehab. Huh? Oh. Yeah. So anyway, occasionally with alcoholics, you cart them off to rehab. But one of the funny stories about that, though, is the former treasurer of Sin Center had, you know, this is 20 years ago.

[03:19]

And since then, he's passed away. So I think I can talk about him. So he was something of an alcoholic. And he was the treasurer of Sin Center. Sin Center is, I don't know what it is anymore, but you know, three, four, five million dollar a year corporation. You know, a little spiritual group. I joined Sin Center to become a spiritual person. I ended up becoming a corporate executive. And so then I had to drop out again, and I became a busboy at a restaurant. But you know, a couple years later, I was the manager in the wine bar. So then I had to drop out again. Well, I didn't drop out again. First I became the head teacher at Tussehar. Then I dropped out. I had to leave Sin Center in order to get out of these high positions, you know, corporate power and authority.

[04:23]

I don't know if this has happened to any of you, but you know, we're all trying to find our way in our life. But anyway, at some point, some people at Sin Center sat the treasurer down and said, you know, we've noticed you have this problem, and you know, we're going to take you to rehab. We're going to have you go to rehab. So then one of the priests at Sin Center was assigned to driving him to rehab. So he and she got to talking on the way to rehab and decided to spend a weekend together instead. You don't need rehab after all. You just need a love affair. So all kinds of things happened, you know.

[05:32]

So then they began this relationship that was going on. And at one point they said, well, why don't you, we could share some secrets with each other. You know, now that we've become close and we've become lovers, why don't we share some secrets with each other? So, you know, I've been sharing, I haven't been sharing, you know, so many secrets with you, but in a way, you know, we're sharing parts of ourselves we don't usually share here today. You know, Stephen Levine said, if we all told each other our deepest, darkest secrets, we would laugh, of course, at our lack of originality. So that's a little bit what's allowed for the light, some lightness and levity here today, you know. So they started, you know, so the woman was sharing some secrets with the treasurer, and then he said, he told her, he said, I've been embezzling money from the Zen Center.

[06:35]

So, you know, usually when you share the secret, when she starts sharing secrets with somebody, it's like, this is confidential, isn't it? So then she was presented with, in effect, you know, she was presented with the moral dilemma, do I tell other people about this, or do I keep it secret for him? And so on. So, and actually it had turned out that, anyway, in his understanding, he then subsequently inherited $60,000 from his aunt and made an anonymous donation to Zen Center. Because just loosely speaking, in his consciousness, although he had been drinking a lot, he couldn't necessarily know, he approximately repaid what he had in mind that he had taken inappropriately.

[07:51]

And this was a bit of a stir at the Zen Center for a while, as you can imagine. But this was a little sidetrack from the fact that there are certain things happening in their life where nothing, you know, all the advice, somebody can't take advice. You can give an alcoholic all the advice you want, and at some point they hit bottom or, you know, something happens. I mean, I have heard, you know, horrific stories about this. I mean, you know, various things happen, and not so horrific stories. My landlady in Inverness, where I have a writing studio, said finally, you know, she had been going to Al-Anon meetings, her husband was an alcoholic. And she came home one day, and there was a paper bag, which was obviously a bottle of liquor.

[08:59]

She got her purse and walked out. Can I just add a story to make it? Yeah. Well, I had actually become kind of shocked from something that happened. When I found out about this, the guy who was upstairs to me, who was an alcoholic, who I always felt was a good-hearted type of person, who apparently got drunk and started dealing with a 15-year-old girl. And so, you know, I was kind of, you know, just worried. And, you know, it was like he was saying, you know, I was like, you know, I don't know, like my mind was just, you know, I won't talk it. So it's hard to know what, you know, what any of us can do to shift something in people's life, because there's something,

[10:03]

there's something where somebody decides. And it's kind of like grace. You know, it's not, it's not anything that anybody, you know, consciously does. There's some grace where it comes to them to shift. So for my landlady and her husband, she walked out, and he started going to AA meetings, and he stopped drinking. And she didn't move back in for another six months. They would meet for coffee. She'd go to, he'd go to the AA, she'd go to the Al-Anon, and then they'd meet for coffee afterwards. And about six months later, finally she said, okay, I'll come back. And, you know, some people's stories are just horrific. I went to one AA meeting, and the speaker there said that he had, you know, he was Nicaraguan in San Francisco, didn't speak English when he first went to school, didn't know how to ask permission to go to the bathroom,

[11:04]

peed in his pants the first day of school, never liked school. And then as a teenager became alcoholic, and then, you know, nothing helped. And then his brother, who he just, you know, adored his older brother, and his older brother was married and had two kids and had a job, and a successful person in the world, good-hearted person, responsible. And his brother lived up in Vallejo, and one day the next-door neighbor, about six o'clock in the morning, came out and killed him. He was taking trash out to the street, the neighbor came out, was a retired policeman, blew him away, didn't like his panics. And the younger brother was completely devastated, and he said, I tried to drink myself to death, and I couldn't. Yeah. And then at some point there, you know, he kind of saw God or something and decided to sober up.

[12:05]

So, you know, I don't know what, you know, at some point, what helps, you know, and all the advice you give. And sometimes people come to a decision to, you know, in Zen we call that, you know, the way-seeking mind, the mind that seeks the way. And so, as much as anything, we tell people, arouse your, awaken your way-seeking mind. Awaken the mind that seeks the way, which is what I was telling you this morning. You know, rather than doing what you're supposed to do and what you've been told, why not start, you know, awaken your capacity to experience your experience, see what you can find out, notice things, observe things, sense things, and study what your experience is, and begin to act on the basis of your experience and trust in what you've experienced to be, you know, something you know about now. How do conversations go, you know, depending on what you say or how you listen, and is there some way you can work on that, and, you know, whatever it is.

[13:09]

And you study, and you keep, and you, so you wake up your capacity to find your way in your life, which sometimes means, you know, joining a meditation group or going to AA meetings or, you know, and to the degree to which somebody's joined a program, then, yeah, I think you offer them the tools that you have to offer, you know, the meditation and the body awareness, and, you know, I think, you know, and you, so you can offer a kind of reassurance of, you know, I think if you keep this up, you know, you'll learn something, and which reminds me now of what Jon Kabat-Zinn said, sometimes says to people, and, you know, I can't imagine myself saying this, but he is so good at it, and he says, oh, you don't like meditation, well, you don't have to like it, you just have to do it. So, how do you say that to somebody, you know?

[14:15]

I, you know, I sort of have a fairly hard time with that, but he's actually able to say things like that to people. It's not meant to be entertaining, and don't worry if it's not, and yeah, you're having a hard time. That's right. This is hard. This is the, and he also tells people that, you know, right at the beginning, when he's interviewing them, this is probably going to be the hardest thing you'll ever do, but if you, if you, if you're willing to do it, and you're willing to make a commitment to this, it's going to change your life, and it's worked enough, and he's seen it work enough that he can, you know, just, you know, so yeah, you can, if you're offering some tools like that, and they've, and they've gotten that far, you're working with an initiated person, you're not trying to get them to take on something, they're, they are taking on something, and then stay with it, you know, and see this through, because it does have the power to transform your life, and you may not understand how it does, and I may not understand how it does, but, you know, stay with it.

[15:18]

That's what I tell people Saturday nights, come back tomorrow. See it through. Yes, Mr. Arno. You know, I used to smoke for 25 years, and for all that... This is tobacco, right? Yeah. It's not that addictive. But for all those 25 years, my parents used to make me quit smoking, and at the same time, where they sort of softened and had given up on me, I decided that what I was going to do was, I was going to smoke, and enjoy every inhale that there was, and be really mindful about the way that I was doing things. Yes, yes. And at the end of that, I came to the conclusion that I didn't need to do that anymore. Yeah. That's how I quit smoking, too. Simple. That's how I quit smoking, too. Is that right? Yeah. I made a ceremony out of it.

[16:20]

You put the cigarettes in a, with a beautiful ashtray, you know, nice lighter or some matches, and then you have a beautiful cloth that you wrap it up in. Special way to tie the cloth. Just like the bowl. Yeah, the bowl, and the eating bowls, and cloths, yeah. And then, before you have a cigarette, I am about to smoke a cigarette. I will enjoy every inhalation completely and fully. May my smoking of this cigarette benefit all beings to us. And may the smoke from my cigarette, you know, send my blessings out into the world. And when I finally was able to do that, because usually I would start this, and then I just, to hell with it, I just want a cigarette. But when I actually did that, finally, and went through the whole process, you know, I took two puffs, and it just wasn't, it wasn't, it wasn't worth doing.

[17:23]

So there is something to be said for bringing more consciousness to what you're doing rather than, but that's an example actually of, if you experience something closely enough, then you know for yourself, is this something I want to do or not, as opposed to, you shouldn't be smoking, you need to stop. And actually I need to get away from you telling me what the heck to be doing. And I usually do that by smoking, okay? Because when I'm smoking, I don't need to listen to you. You had a question, yeah. It's kind of related, it was to do with the parenting of us, and that's not really the intention. Uh-huh, yes. I'm wondering if there's a fine line between, if there's more than one intention, and I'm wondering what you think ought to be promoted,

[18:27]

and just let a child or a person figure out who they are, what their own intentions are. Yeah. Yeah, so that's part of it. You know, generally, if somebody is doing something hurtful or harmful, you want to stop the hurtful or harmful behavior. And that's true with ourselves too. If we get angry or frustrated or scared, if we start to do something that's hurtful and harmful, we want to be able to restrain ourselves or be able to listen to somebody else who says, don't go there with what you're feeling, okay? One of my, recently, you know, I sometimes receive an email that's upsetting for me, and I type the letter, and then I put, save as draft. And then maybe two or three days later,

[19:35]

like, thanks for your note. Sounds like maybe you're having a hard time with such and such. I wish you well with that. And, you know, without saying so, you know, I'm not planning to help you with this by taking on the responsibility for what you're experiencing or whatever, you know. Anyway. So there is something about stopping a behavior that's hurtful or harmful. And then, and then there's something to be said for either if you can, or helping the person, if you can see, you know, some positive intention or, you know, the virtue, someone's virtue or positive intention or good heartedness. And as I say, you know, it's sometimes difficult with children or, you know, certain people in our life sometimes to see that because we get so fixated on the outward behavior and manifestation that we find hurtful or harmful. So,

[20:37]

and part of that will be at some points seeing if there's some way to help somebody else get to that on their own because that's ideally the case. But you help somebody do that by noticing it, acknowledging it. You know, when Marshall Rosenberg teaches nonviolent communication skills, he's saying, for instance, in that case, he has, you know, metaphorically, you can put on your jackal ears or you can put on your giraffe ears and giraffes are the ones who are very sensitive and the jackals are the ones that, what are you talking about? I don't know why you're talking to me like that. The jackals are the ones who attack you on whatever you say and the giraffe ears you're trying to hear, basically, he says, every communication is either please or thank you.

[21:40]

So, if somebody attacks you, it's like, can I get at what they're asking for that's behind their attacking me and, you know, rather than just to respond to the fact that I'm being attacked. So, that's some study, that's some practice and it's a craft for any of us too. We have, you know, some good heartedness and then it's our craft of how do I manifest my good heartedness in the world and various everyday circumstances so that I can, you know, if somebody attacks you, you know, sometimes it's, you know, I guess you didn't feel like I hurt you when you said such and such or, you know, oh, you'd really like me to this and, you know, you're trying to hear what the person's actual request is, please, I'm wondering if you would rather than just attacking you

[22:41]

and making it in the negative. And mostly, you know, we're living in a world where people are not, most of us are not very connected, you know, with our, with what's what. So, if somebody, I mean, one example of this is about five years ago, my mom died and eleven days later, my partner Patricia's father died and then ten months later, we separated. What happened? When you're grieving and you start to feel sad or hurt or angry or resentful or upset or, you know, lost, confused, parents died, you say, why are you talking to me like that? You make me mad.

[23:45]

You make me sad. And so, we look around for the nearest possible cause and so, our thinking is not very accurate. A lot of our thinking is not very accurate and we will find something in the vicinity, the most obvious thing in the vicinity is the partner and the partner is the problem then. You're making me this, you're making me that and it's not exactly true, but if you're in the middle of grief yourself, it's hard to be carefully sorting this out. I mean, it's hard anyway. You know, when somebody says to you, you make me mad, I mean, it's just not true, but it's also very difficult to work with somebody who firmly believes that to get them, speaking of, you know, to get them to understand that you know, I said something and when I said that,

[24:48]

you became angry. That's the kind of causality that is taught in non-violent communication and that's Buddhist causality. When A, then B. A never makes B. A never makes B angry. A said something, B got angry. When A, then B. But B could have laughed or got sad or been disappointed or you know, confused but, and so like Thich Nhat Hanh, when he talks about this, he says, if you get angry, you have to have the seeds of anger. Somebody else, when they spoke, watered your seeds. They didn't make you angry, they watered your seeds. But when you try explaining this to somebody who's convinced that you are the cause

[25:48]

of their emotions and they're making you the cause, it's almost impossible. It is so hard. Some people are ready, more ready to hear that than other people. But that's a, such an important one that we're working with in relationships of, you know, I am not the cause of your emotions and there's no way for me to behave in a way that you never experience emotions that you don't like to have. And I, you know, I hear about this now, now that, you know, once you get familiar with this, you know, I hear about it. I mean, I have one friend and she's always telling me about her boyfriend and how he treats her like this. She is responsible for every one of his emotions and she needs to behave differently so he doesn't have to be sad or disappointed or scared or hurt or ashamed or anything. She needs to change her behavior. And I keep,

[26:51]

you know, trying to say in various ways, Honey, I suggest, you know, some distance here. I suggest you go the other direction from this far as on. And she's just not going there, you know, because she still believes she could change her behavior enough to make his life better. And she could be a better person in a way that he would, you know, stop blaming her so much for his reality. Let me ask you something about that. philosophy. I've read a lot before. What? I've heard that hearing it many times. You've heard this, okay. Yeah, I agree with it to some degree, but, I mean, I sometimes take an extreme example to show some that, you know,

[27:52]

maybe it's, like how far do you take it? That's what I mean. First thing, stop the behavior that's hurtful or harmful. You know, you, either verbally or, you know, defend yourself or, you know, get out of there or, you know, if somebody is doing something that, you know, really is that way, then you, and if you are finding yourself doing that, you can catch yourself in the middle of it too and restrain yourself. This isn't just about other people. None of us, you know. So, that's first that you, and sometimes, you know, it's better, you know, basically, when somebody is angry, you're not, you don't try to talk sense to anybody who's angry when they're angry. This is not only basic Buddhism, but it's now basic science that... I can attest to that. You know, when you talk to somebody who's angry and you tell them

[28:52]

to stop being angry, then it just makes them more angry. No matter, whatever you tell them makes them more angry. You need to calm down. Well, you know, F you too. So, and what that is, is, you know, scientifically now, they've, you know, that you can see, you know, they've studied to see how thinking supports your emotion. If you don't have, for people who's, have brain damage and have no feelings, they have no idea what to do with their life. Without feelings, you don't know what to do. And basically, then what the thinking does is says, when you feel like doing something, the thinking says, that's a good thing to do. And if you don't feel like doing something, the thinking says, yeah, that's not a good thing to do. So, it's just all your feeling, but then you think that it's, you're being rational about it. And you're not just in the grip of your feelings. Anyway, you're thinking will support your feeling, and then if it's a painful feeling, then your thinking will support your anger, and you can be more angry,

[29:54]

and then your thinking will support that. And while you're in, while you're in the grip of that, you can't hear anything else. You can't hear, you literally cannot hear any thought that does not support the intensity of your feeling. So, you have to, you know, wait. And, minimize the damage that's going to be acted out at the time of anger, or, you know, potentially of sadness and depression, you know, could lead to suicide or something. You know, you have to stop the manifestation that's going to be hurtful or harmful. I mean, you don't have to, but, you know, you don't try to explain things at that time. And then, when things have stabilized, then there's a chance to actually talk about something. When you were angry, I was very scared. And, I didn't know what to do. I felt helpless. Oh, then maybe somebody can hear that. But, if you try to tell them that when they're angry, it doesn't necessarily

[30:55]

communicate much. Did you, by the way, did you have more of a question here? I'm not sure if I've actually answered or responded to what you're bringing up. Well, we have our whole lives to work on this stuff, you know. move to the longer piece. I have a question. How do people understand that? Yeah, at some point, you, depending on the, you know, the person's age and the situation, you can inquire and see.

[31:56]

And that, again, is one of the techniques suggested in nonviolent communication. And, you know, there's a difference, for instance, between empathy and reassurance. Oh, you're feeling sad that you're not getting, you're not, you know, you don't have the love you want in your life or the connection you'd like to see. And then, if you say something like that, then the other person can say, no, I'm not feeling sad, I'm feeling angry. Or, so you can check. But, underlying feeling angry is they'd like some connection or they'd like some reassurance or they'd, empathy, they'd like something that says, I'm here with you. And, and then at some point, you're, you know, at some point, we're also endeavoring, if we're not able to give somebody what they would like, it's like, we can also say, well, you know, I'm not sure if I can, you know, give you what you would like here

[32:57]

and if you have some suggestion about what I might do, you know, let me know. Because I'm not sure I know how to be of service or benefit to you at this point. And, let me know what, what might be helpful. And at that point, you know, again, in communication work, I mean, and to some extent, you see, you can study this on your own just through your observations and again, sometimes, you know, to study some outward model helps you to give you the language and the things to look for in your life. Not that you follow the model exactly, but one of the things that Marshall Rosenberg says about request and what would you like, it's sort of like, somebody could say, well, I'd like you to love me more. How do we check that? So you want somebody to be able to make a request that you can actually do or not do. And then you can say, I'd be delighted

[33:57]

and happy to do that or that, well, that doesn't quite work for me to do that right now. I don't feel comfortable doing that. And you try not to say, no, I ain't gonna do that. Just say it a little more gently. I'm not comfortable doing that right now, but sure, I'll keep that in mind. And I had, sometimes these things are like magic because I once worked with a woman when I was doing the restaurant work who consistently complained about being excluded. And finally one day I sat down with her and I said, you know, I don't know what else to do. My intention is to include you, to, you know, communicate with you, to have you be involved in all the decisions that are happening in the restaurant. You're coming to the staff meetings, we invite you to come to the staff meetings, you're one of the leaders of the place. I don't know what else to do.

[34:58]

Tell me if there's something I can do. And she said, well, when I come to work in the morning, I'd like you to say good morning to me. She's the kind of person, you know, I have certain people I say good morning to and other people they come in. But she's the kind of person like, why is she saying good morning to them and not to me? So she's keeping track of certain things that I'm not keeping track of. And that was something I could do. I said I'd be delighted to. And after that, she comes in the morning, oh, good morning. Oh, you got a haircut over the weekend. And, you know, how's your day been? And just a little more everyday communication and then everything cleared up. So if you can find something, sometimes you can, sometimes there is something actually, you know, very everyday to do that shifts things. But yeah,

[36:00]

you're, you don't necessarily, if you guess it's somebody's intention, then you can check with them. I'm wondering if this is what your intention is and or if there's something else that, you know, you see that I need to know about. I'm starting to do that a bit more where I just say very simply like what I said to you, at the meditation this morning with parts of your body, what would you like to tell me? Tell me more. Help me out here. I'm not sure I know what's happening. And you ask that of your body in sitting and then sometimes some information comes because you asked. And I'm starting to do that now with other people. I was very reticent to do that for so many years because I thought if I ask them, they're first of all just going to right off attack me. So now I feel

[37:04]

much more comfortable. Please tell me more what's happening. And that's what I tried with you just now, you see. Is there more you wanted to... One more? Or should we call it an afternoon? You had your chance. Are you raising your hand? Yeah. From that recumbent position? Were you raising your hand? All right. Well, let's do two more. You first. Okay. Well, I have a question about meditation which would be really great to have answered before we do another sitting. It's kind of a technical question. It's about the idea of mindfulness or awareness which I guess is the center of meditation. That's what we're trying to do is meditate. Wake up.

[38:04]

Wake up. Okay. So, I think I thought it all screwed up because I tend to be very vigilant and focus on my breath which is I guess what all the books I've been reading are telling me to do. Focus on your breath because it gives you something to concentrate on. You don't have to do that but it gives you something to focus on so I can make my mind very vigilant and follow my breath and I can do a pretty good job of that while I'm meditating. But it's rather tedious and it feels like a lot of work. It feels like art. The work that I do every day. But this is so interesting because right before lunch someone asked me in a sense this very same question. It was actually

[39:07]

a different question and a little more sort of elaborate. Can I finish talking? Okay. There's another part to it. There's another part to it. To make it short if I don't do that if I don't then and I relax a little bit then my mind just goes completely off of where and I'm lost. And I don't and I'm also you talked a lot about being receptive during meditation. So I don't know how to be vigilant and receptive. They don't they don't go together. And if I'm not vigilant then I just lose myself. I don't know what to do. Do you give up? Don't go where you think you want to go.

[40:07]

Ask the way to the spring. I give up. No. You know this is so this has you know a couple of points that are you know very basic points in Buddhist meditation. There's so one thing is you know it's very common to have a kind of what's sometimes referred to as a pendulum mind. You go from being hypervigilant over to being scattered. Hypervigilant scattered. So you're so what's that about? So and so the more you the more you establish you know your hypervigilance the more you're going to have the scattered because that's just the way it works. You can't maintain that. It's too much work as you say. So so then you go into drift off. And this is also basic that this is a basic thing I've been trying to talk to you about

[41:08]

but there's some tendency of our mind to look for stillness. Why not? Peace. Love. Beauty. Stillness. Calm. So one way to find that is to dissociate. I'm not feeling any of the sensations. I'm not thinking any of the thoughts. I'm not going to have any of the emotions. I'm disconnecting. I'm out of here. You laugh. I'm very good at this. It's a survival skill. You know for traumatized babies. For any of us when we're little and we don't have the capacity to absorb what's going on in our world we learn our psyche knows how to dissociate and just I'm out of here. I am out of here. I don't like it here. I'm not staying here. This is too painful for me. I'm going somewhere else. And you know your consciousness can be on the ceiling or across the room or out in space. You know anywhere but here.

[42:08]

So that is some tendency and what I'm suggesting to you what I've been suggesting to you is by coming into closer you know relationship with the object of awareness you find the stillness and the peace and the calm right there. As opposed to going away. So somehow so this is one aspect of what you're adding is asking is with the vigilance and you say how do I also receive then? So that's exactly right and that's the kind of question or then work for you is not that you know ahead of time how to do that but at least you know that's kind of your that's your aim to have a vigilance and yet also to be able to in that vigilance find the peace and the calm and the well-being and the tenderness there. So that's and now so that's one aspect of this and that's associated with the fact that classically speaking states of absorption

[43:13]

or you know what is sometimes called trance the initial states of absorption requires application or vigilance what you're calling vigilance and then joy and ease. So you want to mix in if you can to the extent you can some joy and some ease because the the application is the capacity we have of mind to you take your mind and you put it on the object and you keep it there and that's called effort and it gets tiresome that you have to hold as a kind of holding your awareness on the object. When there's also joy joy is as I've mentioned you know the very briefly but you know this is a new context for it but joy is the capacity of mind to resonate with the object of awareness and to be moved or touched by the object and this is one of the reasons why breath is a good place to start with this because your breath is moving

[44:15]

and can your awareness be moved by your breath and touched by your breath and can you allow yourself in some sense instead of breathing your breath to be breathed by your breath and to in some way relax and a certain quality of letting go of your vigilance and then so it's not letting go of your vigilance but your vigilance is or you know application of mind is now mixed with some joy it's not just vigilance there's also this there's also some softness of being moved or touched by something ease is the so that's joy resonating with being you know moved by something resonating with something and then ease is the quality of being settled or feeling at home or

[45:16]

you can you can kind of you can also add that into your application or vigilance of in a sense you know you can almost be vigilant about settling at some point if you get too vigilant about setting settling now you're not having any joy because you're not being moved or touched by anything you're just being settled so you're we're sorting all this stuff out and we're to some extent consciously you can allow it or mix it in but basically you yes you are finding with your body and through your practice ways to do this and initially you do it awkwardly no you add in add some joy and ease in with the vigilance and then because the you know joy and ease are described like you know soap you take the soap and then it emulsifies the dirt and the dirt comes off of your hands but anyway the basic principle is

[46:17]

if you're enjoying something your consciousness will tend to stay there you don't have to hold it there it's enjoyable for your awareness to be there you don't go off someplace else and the same with ease when you're at home where you are you don't sort of like this is so scary being here this is so tiresome this is this this is that it's sort of like just a little sense of letting go letting go having some ease ease is a kind of you know lightness it's a little lightness in with you know the vigilance tends to be a little on the serious grippy side and the ease is sometimes this is described as how tightly do you you know the strings on your lute some people have the strings too tight some people have them too loose you're adjusting that or the reins on the horse you're holding on too tightly can you let the horse

[47:17]

follow its nose a little bit more so there's many metaphors for this so learn to work with your horse and you know beautiful creatures these horses did you have a question too? I think we've talked enough so maybe later this afternoon thank you

[47:52]

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