Good afternoon, everyone. I continue from paragraph 4, page 2. Even one of the teachers of teaching schools, such as the masters of sutras, the masters of commentaries, and so forth, who heard of the Buddha Way from far away, said, to arouse the view of Dharma nature on the Dharma nature is nothing other than ignorance. The teacher of the teaching school, Tientai Chi'i, did not say to allow the view of Dharma-nature on Dharma-nature is the bondage of the Dharma-nature.

[01:10]

He failed to say that that is the bondage of Dharma-nature. And further, he added the bondage of ignorance. He did not know that there is bondage of Dharma nature. Although it is pitiful, the fact that he knew that in such a case we add the bondage of ignorance could become the seed of arousing awakening mind. Now, practiced Buddha has not been bound by such bondage. This is a continuation of what he discussed in the previous paragraph about thinking is not reality, real thing, but practice or action or doing or happening is real thing. And he picked up one example of the teacher in the teaching schools.

[02:22]

Teaching schools refer to all other schools besides Zen. Zen schools divide the entire Buddhism into two parts. One is Zen and teaching school. And the teachings of the teaching school is based on the sutras or commentaries. So, from Zen point of view, their teaching or study and practice is based on Buddha's words. But, according to Zen, Zen people, we transmit Buddha's mind or heart, not words. So, we don't use or stand on the words. standpoint of Zen. Sometimes Dogen didn't like that position. He said there's no such distinction between Buddha's words and Buddha's heart.

[03:28]

But here he kind of a little bit criticize to this teacher from Tendai tradition. And here he said, those teachers of teaching school who studied mainly sutras or commentaries on the sutras or shastras. And he said, those are the people who heard of the Buddha Way from far away. That means they are not within the Dharma, but they are hearing from a distance. They hear the Buddha's word, but they don't get in there. They don't live within the Dharma. They studied Dharma. But one of the

[04:36]

Masters from the teaching schools said something as follows. To allow the view of dharma nature on the dharma nature is nothing other than ignorance. Dharma nature is a hosho, and it said in the case of non-unsentient or non-living beings it is called Dharma nature but in the case of living beings it is called Buddha nature but Dogen doesn't, you know, separate these two, dharma nature and buddha nature, because according to Dogen, all beings, all living beings, entire beings are buddha nature.

[05:40]

So dharma nature and buddha nature are the same concept. And what this teacher said is, you know, the reality of dharma nature, that's how the nature or essence of dharma is. That is a reality. But to allow the view of dharma nature to think, oh, this is a dharma nature. Then this dharma nature becomes a concept of dharma nature. When we do such a thing, we lose the sight of real reality. But we discuss about this copy of Dharma Nature as a concept. That is what I think this person is saying. And that is nothing other than ignorance.

[06:46]

Ignorance is mumyo. Myo literally means brightness and that means wisdom. And mumyo is lack of wisdom. And this is considered to be the first cause of twelve links of causation. That is transmigration within samsara. That means the cause of suffering is this mumyo or ignorance. And to allow the view of Dharma-nature on the Dharma-nature. So, here there are two Dharma-nature. One is the real Dharma-nature, true Dharma-nature, the reality, and another is a view or a copy of that Dharma-nature. You know, same as Buddha-nature.

[07:51]

we think about buddhanature as a concept. It has nothing to do with this real thing. This is what the master in the teaching school, Tenzai school, said. According to a commentary, this saying, is by Tiantai Chi. Tiantai Chi is the most important master in Tendai tradition in China. And Dogen Zenji became a Buddhist monk within this Tendai tradition. He studied a lot of this Tendai Chi's teachings. And It is said that this sentence or saying appeared in Tendai-chi's Maka Shikan, but I couldn't find exact sentence in Maka Shikan.

[08:55]

Maka Shikan is a manual of meditation practice. Maka is big or large, and Shikan is a different word from shikan in shikan taza. Shikan is see and come. See is stopping. And come is seeing. And see, stopping, is a translation of shamatha. And come is a translation of vipashyana. Maybe other English, possibly English translation is insight. So, stopping means we stop, you know, distracted thinking. Then, we focus on one point and see things.

[09:57]

This is a basic understanding of Buddhist meditation. Stop our mind. and see it, see the reality of all beings. Anyway, that is a writing by this Master Tendai Tsube. But Dogen Zenji says, The teacher of the Tendai-chi did not say to allow the view of Dharma-nature on Dharma-nature is the bondage of Dharma-nature. And he put another word, ignorance. And Dogenzin didn't like it. He said, when we make Dharma-nature as a concept, then that is a

[10:59]

a bandage of Dharma nature. We don't need to, you know, add another concept that is ignorance. You know, in the philosophy of theories, you know, I think theories is like a map of the reality. And, you know, it's a good thing to have accurate maps in details, but no matter how accurate it is, map is a map. It's not a real thing. I think that is Dogen's point here. You know, our thinking is like a map or an atlas. That is an incomplete copy of the real Earth.

[12:03]

Earth has three dimensions, but map has only two dimensions. So there are many methods to produce a map or atlas. Whatever atlas has some distortion and our way of thinking is the same as creating the map. So no matter how you know, accurate and in detail, the map is. The map is map. I think that is what Dogen Rinzin is saying. So, even about a Dharma nature or a Buddha nature, if we grasp as a concept, then we lose it. We are bound by thinking. But Dogenzen said, although it is pitiful the fact that he knew that in such a case we add the bondage of ignorance could become the seed of arousing awakening mind.

[13:19]

It means the concept is not a real thing. This person knew the concept of not a real thing, but we should see the real reality. To know that, otherwise we are bound by ignorance. To know that can be a seed of way-seeking mind. But Dogen's point is, practice Buddha, Gyo-Butsu, has not been bound by such bondage. Our practice, practice is real thing. Practice is on the ground of reality. It's not on the map. We do, really do, using these five skandhas. And express, you know, both Wu and Mu. or being and non-being, or form and emptiness.

[14:25]

We express both, and we study both, and we understand both sides of our life. Form and emptiness at the same time. So, I go next paragraph. Therefore, it is said in the Lotus Sutra, Chapter 16, Tathagata's Lifespan, that originally I practiced the bodhisattva way. and the lifespan that I acquired then has not, has yet to come to an end, even now, but will last twice the number of kalpas that have already passed.

[15:39]

We should know that it is not that his lifespan as a bodhisattva has continued unceasingly to the present, nor that his lifespan as a Buddha has permeated the entire past. What is called the number of kalpas that has already passed here is the totality of what he has acquired. that he has just expressed is his total lifespan. My original practice, even if it is an iron rod with 10,000 miles long, it is also to cast down all things for a hundred years, letting them be either vertical or horizontal as they wish.

[16:47]

I hope it makes sense. Maybe not. This is typical writing of Dogen. First he quotes from the Lotus Sutra. This is from chapter 16. The Tathagata's Lifespan. or Juryōhon in Japanese. And the part of the verse in this section is often chanted in Sōtōzen tradition in Japan, maybe not in this country. This section, in this chapter, chapter 16, in the Lota Sutra said, you know, I talked about two, three bodies of Buddha, or three kāyā, or three kāyās.

[18:00]

And I said the second, Sambhogakāyā, was established the latest. Last, but first they created the idea of Shakyamuni Buddha as a person who had who had five skandhas, body and mind. And after he died, Shakyamuni Buddha passed away. They started to think, what is Buddha after Shakyamuni died? And people thought his teaching was Buddha. And also, the reality that Buddha awakened to was the Buddha. That is the beginning or origin of the idea of Dharmakaya. So, here are two bodies. The human body, Buddha with human body, and also the Buddha as Dharma.

[19:06]

And this Dharma body has no beginning and no end. So, this is eternal Buddha. And what the Lotus Sutra said is this eternal Buddha is real Buddha. And the Buddha with human body is manifestation or incarnation of this Dharma body or eternal Buddha. And in the case of the Lotus Sutra, It doesn't use the word Dharmakaya. Dharmakaya Buddha is like a Vairocana. But in the Lotus Sutra, they call this eternal Buddha as Shakyamuni. And Shakyamuni Buddha, as a person in the history, died when he was eight years old.

[20:11]

But in the Lotus Sutra, what the Lotus Sutra wanted to say is that Shakyamuni was not that person, not simply that person, but Shakyamuni attained enlightenment or Buddhahood beginningless beginning many kalpas ago. That is the beginning of this chapter. The lifespan of Tathagata is saying. It says something like this. Then, the World Honored One, perceiving that the Bodhisattvas, thrice without ceasing, repeated their request to teach, addressed them, saying, Listen then, all of you. This is Shakyamuni's talking.

[21:14]

We listen then, all of you, attentively to the secret, mysterious, and supernaturally pervading power of the Tathagata. Supernaturally pervading power of the Tathagata. All the words of gods, men, and asuras, consider so people in this world and in the heaven and in the realm of Asura think as follows. Now has Shakyamuni Buddha come forth from the palace of Shakyakaram and seated at the training place I don't like this translation, training place. This is a translation of dojo. But dojo is not a training place.

[22:18]

In this case, this do is awakening. So enlightenment place, place of enlightenment. So dojo of enlightenment. Not far from the city of Gaia has attained perfect enlightenment. People think Buddha was born, you know, at Rumi, and as a prince of certain king, and yet he left his palace and practiced certain period of time, and he, sitting at the seat under the Bodhi tree, he attained enlightenment and he became Buddha. That is the way we think about the Buddha as a human being.

[23:21]

But this eternal shakyamuni continues. But my good sons, since I veritably became Buddha There have passed infinite, boundless, hundreds of thousands of milliard of courtesies of Nayutas of Kalpas. I don't know how long this is. So he has been a Buddha, you know, forever, from the beginningless beginning. but he appeared as Shakyamuni with human body to show this true reality of all beings. And in this context, a few pages later, Shakyamuni said,

[24:27]

Thus it is since I became Buddha in the very far distant past that my lifetime is of infinite asamkhaya kalpas forever existing and immortal. So Buddha was immortal. Buddha was permanent or eternal. Good sons The lifetime which I attained by pursuing the Bodhisattva way is not even yet accomplished, but will still be twice the previous number of kalpas." This is Fat Dogen quotes. But I don't like this translation, so I use another translation. That is, Originally, I practiced the Bodhisattva way and the lifespan that I acquired then has yet to come to an end even now.

[25:42]

But we lost twice the number of kalpas that have already passed. Whether we believe this or not, this is what the Lotus Sutra is saying. Buddha attained enlightenment or Buddhahood, you know, many kalpas ago. And he attained eternal life. So his lifespan is eternal. And this eternal Buddha, Shakyamuni, appeared in this world as a prince of the king in India about 2,500 years ago. That is a kind of incarnation of this eternal Buddha. That is what the Lotus Sutra wants to say. And Dogen Zenji quotes this, but

[26:48]

Dogen Renji's saying is very different from what the Lotus Sutra wants to say. He's not talking about the kind of myth that actually Buddha attained Buddhahood so many kalpas ago. But he's talking about our practice. He's discussing about the Buddha as our practice. So we have to think what this means. And my understanding is... As I said this morning, in Dogen's writings, It seems he has the idea of two, not two, but three kinds of time.

[27:54]

One is a time, as we usually think, that flows from past to future. And we are in certain moment. And there is a past and future. But as I said, this is one kind of time in Logan's writing. He said, you know, firewood and ash. There is a before and after. So he, you know, thinks this is a conventional time. Time flows from past to the future. But he also said, at the moment of firewood, firewood stays at this dharma position.

[29:00]

And when it becomes ash, ash is staying at this dharma position. And within this dharma position at this moment, Entire past and future are included within this moment, which has no length. This is, as I said, this is zero. But within this zero, entire past and entire future are included. This is, I think, another kind of time that doesn't flow. And this present moment, which has no length, right now, right here, is a gateway from this conventional time to that time that doesn't flow. Time that doesn't flow means from the beginningless beginning, or maybe we can say from the time of Big Bang,

[30:10]

until, I don't know what is the end of this universe, but this is one seamless moment. You know, we separate by measuring times using, you know, something convenient. Like, one day is a time, you know, sun. Sun? Yeah, sun go around the moon, around the Earth, after its opposite. Anyway, so we measure the time and separate one day or one week or one year or one century or one goddess. But within the time itself, there is no such separation. This is one seamless moment and it doesn't flow. But in our actual life experience, You know, because things are changing, we see times are flowing from the past to the future, through present moment.

[31:24]

And when we say, for example, when we say now, depending upon the topics, now has a length. When I say now I'm staying at San Francisco Zen Center, that means I stay in this Zen Center for one week. So now means one week. Or I can say now I live in the United States. That means I have been in the United States for 15 years. So now means 15 years. So there are some length and in our thinking. And yet, when we exactly, precisely think the reality, now is not really now. When I say now, we are still in the future.

[32:28]

And when I say now is already in the past. You know, this real moment has no length. If there is even a slightest length, we can divide that time into two, and half is past and half is future. So this is really zero. And space is the same, but now we are talking about time. So, the time of the firewood, this firewood is nearly 100% firewood. The time firewood was an actual live tree is already gone and it's not reality anymore. And the time it was burned and became ash is not yet come.

[33:31]

Live tree and ash is not reality. It doesn't really exist. It's gone and not yet come. Only real reality is this moment of firewood. And this moment has no length. And yet, within this dharma position of firewood, entire past is included or reflected. and the entire future is reflected. So, then, we are really just being right now, right here. We disappear. Time and space and the self disappear. Even we cannot say this is a firewood. Then, you know, as Dogen said, When we sit even for a short more time, our Zazen is one with all beings within the time and space in Jiju Zanmai.

[34:40]

That means when we become zero at this moment, then we are one with this time that doesn't flow. And that is eternity. And this is This is the first, I think, Dogen Zenji thing. That is the eternal life of Buddha. So, our practice, not attained, but through our practice of just being right now, right here, we become one with eternity. even though we are living within this time, conventional time that is flowing. I think that this is Gyōbutsu, or practice Buddha's life span, even though one moment, moment by moment, still within this one moment by moment,

[35:48]

entire past and entire future are included. That means our practice at this moment, this eternity, is manifested. This is expressed, for example, in Dogen Zenji's poem, Waka poem, about impermanence. I forget the English translation, but in Japanese it's It goes something like... The meaning is... This waka is about impermanence. The meaning is, this world is like when waterfall sink into the water and come up to the surface and shake the bill, the bath bill.

[37:11]

from the view, you know, a drop of water splashed. And only a few seconds, this drop of dew exists as individual beings and it returns to the water. Only a few seconds. But within each and every drop of dew, the boundless moonlight is reflected. And, you know, each drop of dew, how can I say, becomes very bright and looks like the moon itself. That is the expression of eternity within impermanence. Eternity with this moment. And this is not only Dogen Zenji, but also this is a kind of a very common motif of Japanese literature like Waka or Haiku.

[38:23]

Eternity within one moment or eternity within impermanence. So within a tiny thing and that exists only for a very short time the boundless moonlight or eternity and something boundless is reflected. And that is possible because the drop of dew is impermanent. It's moving. And Gyo-Butsu is the same. Gyo-Butsu is also impermanent. Our practice is moment by moment. But within each moment, within this very tiny body and mind, this eternal life of Buddha and boundless light,

[39:30]

symbol of Buddha's wisdom is reflected. And that is my understanding of Dogen Zenji's interpretation of this eternal lifespan of Buddha. So, it's eternity within moment, within impermanence. And our practice manifest or express the eternity within moment. Next sentence, Dogen Zen said, we should know that It is not that his lifespan as a bodhisattva has continued unceasingly to the present.

[40:36]

So, he's saying this eternal life doesn't mean within this time, within this conventional time, flows from past to present. You know, Buddha's life continues forever. But these two are very different times. One is the time that flows. Another is the timeless time that doesn't flow. So we must be careful about this. That is what Dogen is saying. This is not simply long life within the conventional time. Within the conventional time, You know, everything is impermanent. Nothing lasts forever. So, it's, you know, moment by moment it separates.

[41:40]

It's impermanent. But from another dimension, this is permanent or eternal. So if we think, you know, lifespan as a bodhisattva has continued unceasingly to the present. That means until Buddha said, you know, this saying. Then, within this conventional time, then that is a mistake. There is no such eternal life in the conventional time. And, know that his lifespan as a Buddha has permeated the entire past. So, Dogen Zenji thinks that Buddha's eternal lifespan is another different dimension. It's not within the time that is flowing.

[42:43]

Within this time, everything is impermanent. Nothing can be permanent. So Buddha's lifespan is not within this time. Does it make sense? Okay, good. So, fat is called the number of Calpas that has already passed. That is part of this quote. Here is the totality of fat he has acquired. Fat he has acquired is the totality of this time. And even now, that even now also came from this quote. This means, this now, this present moment, that he has just expressed is his total lifespan, means this lifespan, as a time which doesn't flow.

[43:48]

Then, finally, he said, my original practice, this is also a part of the quote, my original practice, that is a Bodhisattva practice, that is our practice, that is a practice of Gyōbutsu, or practice Buddha. Even if it is an iron rod with 10,000 miles long, this means one piece of iron rod with 10,000 miles long as one piece. That means this time. But it is also to cast down all things for 100 years. Cast down means let go. Letting them be either vertical or horizontal as they wish means within this time things are always changing and we have to let go.

[45:01]

But this one iron rod with 10,000 miles is kind of a common expression. How can I say? Seamless peace. Speech continues forever. And this another expression, 100 years letting them be either vertical or horizontal as they wish, is a quote from a poem written by Sekito Kisen. Sekito or Shito. who was the master in our lineage, who wrote Sandokai, or Puppet Sandokai. Merging of difference and identity, or sameness.

[46:05]

This is a poem about, entitled, Sou Anka. Ka is song and so-an means grass. An is hermitage. Song of grass hermitage. I think you can find some English translation of this poem. And this expression so-an also came from the Lotus Sutra. That is the hermitage where the you know, the son of the millionaire who, you know, left his father and came back, lived when he was a worker under his father. This one, saw-an, or a grass hermitage, or hut, was used.

[47:12]

So, this has something to, everything, almost everything, token quote, in this writing, has something to do with the Lotus Sutra. This means, you know, the lifespan of Gyo-Butsu, or practice Buddha, is eternal and yet impermanent. It's a moment-by-moment thing. And yet, within this moment-by-moment practice, or happening, you know, the eternal lifespan of Buddha is manifested. So, if we think eternity or permanence within this Conventional time, it's completely misunderstanding. But these two are very different dimensions. And our practice of right now, right here, with wholehearted practice, right now, right here, allow us to manifest this eternal lifespan within this moment.

[48:25]

I think that is Togen Zenji's idea of Iigi, Gyo-butsu Iigi, or dignified conduct of practicing Buddha. Because, you know, this each and every conduct manifests in this eternal lifespan of Buddha. This is dignified. we feel or we find dignity within that practice. When someone is really wholeheartedly doing one thing with total attentiveness, then the person disappears. Only that action, that work, that practice. Then within that practice, without self-centeredness, the eternal life manifests there. That is Dogen's idea, not idea, but teaching about our day-to-day, moment-by-moment practice.

[49:37]

We should practice in that way. Then, Buddha's eternal life span or Buddha manifests within each and every action in our daily lives. Whether it's possible or not. Please. And whether those actions are done well or not doesn't matter. Well, it's a matter. We have to make effort to do it well. But to do it well or not is our judgment, not Buddha's judgment. So, from this side, From this side means the side of letting go for 100 years freely. That is our practice. So we try to do it even a little bit better than before. That is the practice from this side. For example, to work in the kitchen as a Tenzo, we often make mistakes.

[50:44]

But we try to do better than before, even a little bit. That is what Dogen Zen taught in Tenzo Kyokun. So, from our side, our practice is always incomplete. That's why we need practice repentance. But from other sides, from this side and from other sides, you know, within our whole-hearted practice, even if it's incomplete or not so well done, still Buddha's, within this whole-heartedness, Buddha's eternal lifespan is manifested. So there's no judgment. From this side, We have to always make judgment and try to do even a little bit better job each time.

[51:50]

And there is no end. There can be no perfect job. That is how we practice as a Bodhisattva. And from that side, there is no such judgment or evaluation in our practice because it is moment by moment. When it's done, it's done. It's over. It's already in the past. So we have to aim at the best job at this moment. That's all we need to do. That is what wholehearted, I think, means. Let's see. Next paragraph. Therefore, practice verification. Here, practice and verification is one word.

[52:53]

The original expression is shu-sho, shu and sho. Therefore, practice verification is neither non-being, or mu, nor being, u. Practice verification is not defilement, although there are millions of examples of practice verification in the places without Buddha and human beings. None of them defile practice Buddha. Therefore, practice Buddha is never defiled by practice and verification. It is not that practice verification is always undefiled. This non-defilement is not non-existence, or mu. Does it make sense?

[54:00]

I think so. What is verification? Verification is a translation of sho. Verification is a translation of shu-sho. Shu is practice. And sho, here I translate as verification. Sometimes this expression, shu-sho, is translated as a practice enlightenment. This expression, shu and sho, is used in Buddhism in general.

[55:12]

Shu is cause and sho is result. And this Chinese character, shou, means verification or proof or evidence. And this shu shou is, I think I said many times, but shu shou is a part of the longer expression. That is, mon shi shu shou. Mon, Shi, Shu, Sho. This is a process of practice of Buddhism. Mon is to hear. Shi is to think. And Shu is practice.

[56:16]

And Sho is evidence or proof. This means when we hear someone's teaching, someone teach something, and we hear it, And then we think about it, whether it makes sense or not, whether it may work or not. And when we think it may be the right thing for me, then we put it into practice. Then after practice, through our own experience, we know that the teaching is true. That is what this show means. So proof or evidence of that teaching is true. But usually, you know, the result of practice is so-called enlightenment.

[57:18]

Sometimes this show is translated as practice enlightenment. But this enlightenment is not a literal translation. So, I use this word, verification, for the translation of this show. You know, English word, enlightenment, is a very vague word and many different connotations. So it's kind of dangerous to use. So would shusho be described as knowledge that's been verified through practice? Yeah. That is, as a result of practice, we understand that teaching is true.

[58:22]

That is what shô means, as a proof or evidence. But, Dogen Zenji says, he's one of the most important expressions of Dogen, shû shô ichi-nyô. Ichi is one. and nyo is thusness or reality. That means what he's saying is shu and sho is one thing, one reality. That means if the teaching is really true, we don't need to wait until we see the result. But practice is itself evidence. Practice is itself... shows that teaching is really true. So, when he said, shu and shou, pre-practice and verification are one, that means within when we practice, the result is already there.

[59:34]

This also means, you know, within time, past, present and future. Because everything is connected with everything. You know, practice and verification, it might be in the future, are really connected. This is one reality. So within practice or within cause, result is already included. That means within the seed, flowers are already there. That is Dogen Zenji's idea of shisho as one. So here, Dogen Zenji says, shisho is neither non-being or being.

[60:40]

Non-being is u. He negated hi, u, and hi, mu. This hi, u, hi, mu. U is being. Mu is lack of being or negation of being. But being and non-being, in English, doesn't make sense to me. So let me use this word, Wu and Mu. Wu is to be or exist. It's there. And Mu is not there. And this expression, not Wu and not Mu, is a very common expression in Mahayana Buddhism to show emptiness.

[61:48]

Hin'u not u means mu. And not mu is u. So, u and mu and u and neither u nor mu. is the common expression to show the reality of emptiness. It's there, but it's not there. And this is about how we are. I'm here, I'm talking now, but there's no such thing as shohaku. You know, like a waterfall. You know, all there is is a shape of a certain shape of the earth or ground and water is keep running and we call this a waterfall, like a Niagara fall.

[62:57]

But there's no such thing called waterfall. Everything there is just a certain shape of the ground and water that is continuously flowing. So there are no such things called Niagara Falls as a fixed entity. If we take water from that waterfall, then this is not anymore Niagara Falls. So then what is Niagara Falls? There's no such thing, a fixed thing, called Niagara Fall. And yet we cannot say Niagara Fall doesn't exist. It's there. And actual Niagara Fall and the photo of Niagara Fall are different. A photo is a copy and it doesn't change.

[64:02]

It continues forever. It's permanent. But actual Niagara Falls is impermanent. And it's not there. And yet, it's really there. And it has great power and energy. That is what hi-u hi-mu means. It's not there as a fixed entity. But it's there as an actual How can I say? Movement of energy. And not only the Niagara fall, but we are the same. And our practice is same. Our practice is like a waterfall. It continues and we cannot say our practice exists. It doesn't exist. It's not existence. It's happening. So, we cannot say our practice, or practice Buddha, Gyo-butsu is Uru, or Gyo-butsu is Mu.

[65:10]

Neither Uru nor Mu. And, practice verification is not defilement. This defilement is a translation of Zenna. This is also important expression in Dogen's teaching. This Wu and Mu and also defilement came from a story, Koan story, about the first encountering of the sixth ancestor and his disciple, Nangaku Ejo. I think you are familiar with this story. Nangaku Ijo was a young training monk. And he practiced with certain teachers at Mount Su.

[66:13]

And he heard about Sixth Ancestor Huinan, so he traveled to visit Sixth Ancestor. And when he first I met with Huinan. Huinan asked, where are you from? Does it work? Where are you from? And Nangaku just replied, I'm from certain mountain where certain teacher lives. And I practiced there. Then Huinan asked again, This is kind of an interesting question. What is that that does come? Does it make sense? What is it that does come? The original expression is,

[67:15]

Butsu, Inmo, Rai. Somo is fat, and Butsu is thin. And Inmo is thus, and Rai is come. So, he is asking, Nangaku Ejo, not the place where he stayed before he came to his place, but he is asking, that thing that comes in that way, that means, what are you, really is. But in the story, Nangaku didn't understand what this question is.

[68:25]

And it said he practiced with Huinan for eight years. And after eight years of practice, he finally understood the meaning of this question. So, he visited Huinan and said, I first understood the question you gave me when I first came. So, Sixth Ancestor asked, How do you understand? Then, Nangak said, Maybe I don't need to write. That means, if we try to say something about this thing, it missed the mark. Whatever I say is not hit the mark. That means I cannot say anything about this thing.

[69:30]

That is Nangaku's answer. Then, Dogen quotes in the next paragraph, Oh, no. After that, Hinan asked again, if, you know, there is this thing, it cannot be said anything, then is there a practice and verification, shu and shou, are there or not? Then, Nangak said, we cannot say there is no practice and no verification. But practice and verification cannot be defiled. That is Nangakuza's answer. This defilement means, you know, our practice and verification is defiled by our desire.

[70:35]

That is the origin of Dogen Zenjutsu's expression, just practice. Just sit without trying to avoid defilement or to practice something with the expectation of some good result as a reward. But just keep sitting, keep practicing without any expectation. That is a practice without defilement. Then, when Huinan heard this answer from Rangaku, Huinan said, that is Dogen quote in paragraph 7. That is, simply this non-defilement has been protected and maintained

[71:47]

by all Buddhas. You are also like this. I am also like this. And all the ancestors in India were also like this. This is a koan story about Nangaku and Hinan. And using that story, Dogen said, our practice, that is gyo-butsu, is ni-ra-mu-no-wa-u. That came from Shunran's question, if so, if we cannot say anything about that thing, is there practice and verification or not? That means if there's nothing, this is nothing, then Why we have to practice? This is completely empty.

[72:52]

Do we have to practice? Do we have to study something? Do we have to make effort to become something? That is Shuinan's question. Then Nangak said, you know, we have to make effort. We have to practice. We have to study. And yet our study and practice should not be defiled by our desire of gaining something. And Shuinan accepted Nangak's answer and said, this non-defilement, Non-defilement means this practice and verification without defilement is what has been transmitted from Shakyamuni Buddha to himself, to the six ancestors.

[73:58]

So practice without defilement, practice without gaining mind is what has been transmitted. We go back to paragraph 6. So, next Dogen said, although there are millions of examples of practice verification in the places without Buddha and human beings, none of them defile practice Buddha. So, there are You know, millions of practice enlightenment are the activity of practice Buddha or Ryobutsu. He said, in the places without Buddha and human beings.

[75:01]

This is Mugutsu Muni no Tokoro, the place without Buddha and human beings. But that means, you know, we are human beings. Our goal of this practice is Buddha, to become Buddha. But here there are no human beings and no Buddha. That means no separation between starting point and goal. But we just practice moment by moment. Even though we practice within this, you know, so-called Bodhisattva path, from the starting point to the goal. That is our vow, bodhisattva vows to... That is the fourth vow. Buddha's way is unsurpassable.

[76:06]

We vow to attain it or become it. That is the goal of the bodhisattva practice. But, what Dogen is saying here with the expression, the place without Buddha and human beings means there is no such separation between starting point and goal. That means we are already in the goal from the very beginning. And yet, our practice has no end. It continues forever. It's very contradicted and almost nonsense. But this is Dogen's idea of practice and enlightenment or verification are one. We continue this practice without defilement to the end of our life or even after end of our life. Do you have something to say?

[77:06]

Yeah, that is what Dogen is saying, I think. Enlightenment is something like a personal experience. Or from other side, all our personal experience is experience of enlightenment. Whichever you like. I would be equally deluded then to think of a person building or a person of Shakyamuni as having become enlightened. That's fine. So it can only happen. Yeah, reality is only this moment.

[78:16]

You know, my experience in the past, even though that is awakening experience, it's gone. It has nothing to do with what I'm doing right now, unless I am awakening now. Right? So, what Dogen Zenji wants to say is, whether we are important thing is practice, not so-called awakening experience. Awakening experience is kind of a personal thing and there is no way other people can judge, even though there is certain method or practice in other tradition. But what Dogen said, we cannot evaluate someone's experience. Only way we can evaluate, I don't like the word, evaluation, but we can see whether this person is walking in a right track or what sort of practice is the person's activity.

[79:27]

How this person practice, how this person do things, behave toward the person himself, oneself, or other people. So, practice or action is a real thing. Of course, experience is also a real thing, but we cannot share the experience. Does it make sense? Here we are. So, those millions of examples of practice verification does not defile the practice Buddha, because practice Buddha is moment by moment. We cannot grasp what I did last moment. This moment is already this moment. Therefore, practice Buddha is never defiled by practice and verification.

[80:34]

So, if we think practice and verification or cause and result are two separate things, then, according to Dogen, that is defilement. Already we are thinking. It is not that practice verification is always undefiled. You know, we can defile practice enlightenment, our practice, in many ways. And almost always we do. And yet, this non-defilement is not non-existence, or Mu. That means we cannot say there is no such thing. It's there, and we can practice in that way, but unless We are very careful. We defile our practice verification. It's almost 4.30.

[81:42]

I think this is a good place to stop. Any more questions? Please. I'll elaborate a little bit more on this last sentence here. This non-defilement does not move. So yes, we can certainly defile our own, and it's not defiled by not existing. But I'm still not understanding the last sentence. It means we cannot say there's no such practice verification without defilement. It is there, as a gyōbutsu, a practice buddha. And yet, we often defile it. There is always a possibility to defile it. But we cannot say there is no such practice enlightenment or practice verification without defilement.

[82:43]

We can't say that there is no such practice verification? Yeah. We cannot create the possibility of such a practice with such an attitude without defilement, without, you know, desire to make this person, you know, a better person. Thank you very much.

[83:30]

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