Good afternoon. This morning, at the end of this morning class, I talked on the Shobo Genzo Uji, or being time. writing in shohoji and uji are the same reality. So I think uji or being-time is often considered as an expression of Dogen's philosophical insight and often compared with Western philosophy such as Heidegger's identity about time and being.

[01:02]

But I think Fat Dog and Road in Uji is very concrete, actual way all beings are as our life, within our life. And because I didn't have much time, I didn't really explain So, I'd like to add one thing or explain a little more about one sentence from Uji and go to the final part of Shoboji-so. That is, the sentence is, nonetheless, the nature of the truth of this yesterday and today. Rise in the time when you go directly into the mountains and look at the myriad peaks around you.

[02:07]

Hence, there is no passing away." So he's talking about time, yesterday and today. And yesterday and today is the same as today and tomorrow. lies in the time when you go directly into the mountains. Somehow he put this word, going directly into the mountains, without much explanation. So I need to explain what this mountain is. And this mountain, the same mountain as I said to Evan's question, The mountain appeared in Su Shi's poem about Mount Rue. So I'd like to a little bit talk about this Mount Rue, I mean poem on Mount Rue, and Wan Shi and Dogen's poem.

[03:12]

And also, last year, I We studied Shobo Genzo Uji at the Genzo-e at Dharma Field Zen Center in Minneapolis. And I introduced these three poems on Mount Rue. And they added one more poem following the same meaning by Katagiri Roshi. So, I'd like to introduce Katagi Roshi's poem also. The original poem is by Su Shi. Su Shi is a very famous Chinese poet in the 11th century. So Shoku in Japanese. I hope this is right.

[04:21]

I'm not sure. He lived in the 11th century. So about the same time as Wanshi, right? No, Wanshi is in the 11th century. 11th? He is 11th. Wanshi is 12th. Dogen is 13th. Osushi's poem on Mount Rue is as follows. Regard it from one side, an entire range. From another, a single peak. Far, near, high, low, all its parts different from the others. If the true face of Mount Rue cannot be known, it is because the one looking at it is standing in its midst.

[05:34]

Shall I read again? Regarding from one side an entire range, from another a single peak, far near high low, all its parts, different from the others. If the true face of Mount Rue cannot be known, it is because the one looking at it is standing in it." Sushi's another poem, Dogon quote, is the poem about the sound of Valley Stream and Colors of Mountains. He quoted this in Shobo Genzo Keisei Sanshoku, or Sound of Valley Stream and Colors of Mountains. Could I ask you for one?

[06:38]

After far, near, high, and low, what's the next line? All its parts. All its parts. So, he's walking in the mountains and he sees Mount Rue. When he sees the mountain from one point, it is like a part of the range. That means there's no independent one mountain, but it's part of many mountains, like a wave. But when he sees the same mountain from another side, Mount Lu is really a single peak. So this means one and same mountain is from one side, it's an independent single peak.

[07:40]

From another side, it's just simply a part of the range. Mount Hiei is the same. Antaiji is located in the west part of Kyoto. And Mount Hiei is in the eastern part of Kyoto. So every day I could see Mount Hiei from Antaiji. And from the side of Kyoto, Mount Hiei is really a single peak. But when we see the same mountain from other side, the side of Lake Biwa, then we cannot see which is that mountain, because it's really a part of the mountains. So I think this is like, you know, when we study physics about light, when we observe light from one way, it's a particle.

[08:42]

But when we observe the Same light from other way, it's a wave. A particle means it's independent. And wave means there's no such independent thing. So I think he's describing the same thing, you know, independence and interdependence. I think it's very interesting. So, far, near, high, low, all its parts, different from the others. And next line is, if the true face, this true face is a Zen word, true face of Mount Rue, because Mount Rue seems very different each time, from each place. Then, what is the true face of Mount Rue? That is a koan, you know. In Zen, we have to, we are asked to see the true face of ourselves.

[09:48]

And we are always changing. We are independent, impermanent. So, we are always changing depending upon the conditions. Then, that is the true face of this person. one of the very important koans in Zen. And that is what he is saying here. And he said, if the true face of Man cannot be known, this is a translation from one book, translated by an American scholar, but I'm not... I don't agree with this translation. I don't think this is an if-clause to both possible readings, because there is no if in the original. So this is possible, but my way of reading is this is not an if-clause, but the true face of Mantru cannot be known.

[10:56]

I think this is a statement, because the one looking at it is standing in its midst. So, if this is the if-kuro, that means if he gets out of the mountain, then he can see the mountain objectively from outside. And it seems that is the interpretation of this poem in Rinzai tradition. Because he is still in the mountain, so he cannot see the true face. But if he gets out of it, he can see the true face of the mountain. But my understanding is it's not possible and it doesn't need to. We don't need to see the true face of the mountains. Because there is no true face of the mountains beside each and every way it seems. So it's depending upon the relation between the person and the person's position on the mountain.

[12:07]

So each, how do you call, each look, each appearance is a true face. There's no true face beside those changing faces. I think that is how I understand this poem. So this is Sushi's poem about Mount Rue. And this Mount Rue, I think, is this entire network of interdependent origination in which we are coming and going. And depending upon where we are, this mountain looks very different. So we want to know what is the true face of this mountain. But we cannot see. So we have a problem. But in Eihei Koroku,

[13:12]

Ehe Koroku is a collection of Dogen Zenji's formal discourses and also his Chinese poems. And, let's see, Volume 9, Ehe Koroku is a big book. It has 10 volumes. And Volume 9 is a collection of 90 koans. And he, Dogen, composed poems or verses on each of 19 poems. So it's like a Shoryo Roku or Hekigan Roku. The difference is he didn't make any comments. He just wrote, composed the poems or verses on each koans. Twenty, I think, twenty-fifth. Four or five. Twenty, I think, twenty-five.

[14:19]

He, Dogen Zenji, quote Wansi's poem, following Susi's poem on Mount Rue. And he, Dogen himself, composed his own poem. So, I'd like to introduce from Ehe Korok. Wanshi's and Dogen's poem, following Sushi's poem on Mount Rue. Wanshi, so this is Taigen and my translation. Wanshi's poem is, With coming and going, a person in the mountains. So pretty clear, you know, Wanshi is writing a poem following Sushi's poem, with coming and going, a person in the mountains, understandings that blue mountains are his body.

[15:27]

The blue mountains are the body, and the body is the self. So where can one place the senses, and their objects. So, in, what Wat Wan Si is saying is, this is a mountain, and we are coming and going with this mountain. And for him to see the true face of Mount Buu or not is not a matter, because it's not possible. But his insight is, this entire mountain is his body. the person who is coming and going's body. That means the person and this entire mountain is one. So the Blue Mountains are the body. And he said, the body is the self. So this entire network of interdependent origination is the person's body.

[16:36]

And therefore, that is person's self. So where can one place the senses and their object? That means we are some place in here, and we think we are seeing the Mount Rue as an object. So we see the object using our sense organs, and Mount Rue is object. But what she is saying is, there is no place we can place senses and their object. That means, sense and their object is working together as one. Because person in the mountain and the mountain are one thing. This is Wanshi's poem. So, to see the true face of Mount Rue or not is not important.

[17:38]

But to live together, to walk together with the mountain is important in Wanshi's poem. And Dogen's poem is as follows. A person in the mountains should love the mountains. in Chinese and Japanese is Ai. It is not often used in a positive meaning. Love is another word of attachment. But here Rogenzen used this word Ai, or love, in a positive meaning. That means to be intimate and one with this mountain. So, a person in the mountains should love the mountains. With going and coming, the mountains are his body.

[18:41]

So, Dogen agreed. Dogen agreed with Wanshi, this entire mountain is itself his body. And the mountains are the body, but Dogen said, The body is not the self. That's the difference between Wanshi and Dogen. Because if we think this is the self, then this looks, sounds like an Atman, you know, or a Brahman. So this, even though I draw a circle, there is no such circle. Circle looks like a boundary. between inside and outside. But there is no such circle. If we call this is one closed circle, then we can... maybe we can call this a self.

[19:43]

But there is no... this circle is not really there. But just a network. So there is no self. This is kind of an important point. Even some Zen teachers, you know, use the expression big self, small self and big self. And we should forget the small self, but we should, you know, see and express the big self. And, at least according to Dogen, there are no such things called big self. That is a very important point. to understand Dogen. There's no small self exist, and no big self exist. Only this dynamic movement as a total function is there. Everything is coming and going. That's all. And finally he said, so where can one find any senses or other, or their object?

[20:52]

So there's no such separation between sensorial one and the object. So this is one total dynamic function. That's all. This is Dogen's poem. And Katagiri Roshi's poem is as follows. I think he made this poem following Dogen's poem. Katagiri Roshi's poem is To love the mountains is not to know about mountains, but to climb mountains and to live and die continuously with them. Then the mountains themselves speak to us frankly about the infinite world, of the mountains, which human beings otherwise never know.

[22:00]

I read it again. To love the mountains is not to know about the mountains, but to climb mountains. and to live and die continuously with them. Then the mountains themselves speak to us, frankly, about the infinite world of the mountains, Human beings otherwise never know. I leave this copy so you can make a photocopy if you want to have a copy.

[23:04]

Anyway, I think these are all connected. And... So you're getting it in English or in Japanese? In English. There is books from all those poems, different poems, they have the book in English? Sushi's poem is from one book entitled, Mount Rue Revisited. And next two, Banshi's and Dogen's is from Extensive Record of Ehe Dogen, Ehe Koroku. And Katagi Roshi is from, I don't know where, Maybe from Udumbara, the magazine from MCMC. Anyway, I first talked on this poem by Tsu-shi, I think, at Green Gulch, right before I had a first genzoe here on mountains and water sutra, as a kind of introduction of mountains and water sutra.

[24:21]

And I think it's really closely connected. And after that, for Genzo-e, I studied Keisei Sanshoku, Sound of Valley Stream and Colors of Mountain. And Raihai Tokuzui, Making Prostration and Gaining Mellow. and Showa Kumaksa are not doing any evil, anything evil. And Uji. Yeah, Gyoji. Gyoji is different. But those chapters of Shobo Genzo are written in the year 1240. in the same year.

[25:24]

And in all those chapters of Shobo Genzo, he quotes the expression from this poem, a person in the mountains. And in Uji, this sentence in Uji is one of them. He just said, we should go directly into the mountains. So this mountain is this mountain. the mountains Sushi, Wanshi, Dogen, and Katagiri were talking on this mountain. And within this mountain, let's see, once a year I have a walking retreat in North Carolina at a small town called Hot Spring. There's a small Hot Spring and we walk on the Appalachian Trail. We have the walking retreat in October, beginning of the second week of October.

[26:36]

It's the most beautiful time of the year. The colors of the mountains are really beautiful. During that retreat, we visit a place named Max Patch. Do you know? It's a small mountain. It's not so high mountain. It's round and there's no tree on the mountain. So when we are at the top of that mountain, we can barely see 360 degrees. So, you know, we can see the scenery of places near right near the mountains, and very far away. I think what Fat Ndogen is saying is about yesterday and today.

[27:38]

It's like we see, we directly get into that mountain and see around. We can see the road or path we took to come to that mountain. and from far away there are all different mountains. So this is really one entire world. And what he is saying in here is yesterday or tomorrow, yesterday or the day before that, the whole entire past is seen from this top of the mountain. And the entire future is also already there. So each moment is like we are on the top of that mountain and seeing around. And this is the ten-direction world of this moment, including the path we have been walking.

[28:46]

I think that is the image of Uji in Dogon. That is my understanding. So, when he wrote his experience in China with Tendo Nyojo, he had 18 years before he wrote this Shoho Jisso. His experience is part of that entire world of that moment. And so he can, I think, clearly see what happened at that time. So he wrote that experience, I think, as the scenario of this moment. That's why I tried to translate using a present tense instead of a past tense. So this is really part of Dogen's that moment of Dogen in 1243.

[29:53]

Well, that is what I wanted to add to this morning talk. Any questions? Is it clear? I'm sorry. OK, then I start to the final section. Page 24, Paragraph 51. Great Master Zongyi, or Shuizi, of Xuansha Yuan, or Gensha Yin Temple, while teaching his disciples heard a swallow chirping and said, the swallow is deeply expressing the true reality and skillfully expounding the essence of the Dharma.

[31:06]

The master descended from the platform. Later, a monk asked instruction, saying, I do not understand. The master said, Get out of here. No one believes you. This is the story. And Dogen's comment. Upon hearing Shunsha's utterance, we may interpret that deeply expressing the true reality means that only the swallow was expressing the true reality in depth. Nevertheless, it is not the case. While teaching, Shuansha or Gensha heard the swallow chirping. It is neither that the swallow was deeply expressing the true reality,

[32:15]

nor that Shuen-sha was deeply expressing the true reality. Because there is no such dualistic separation, this very vastness is itself deeply expressing the true reality. For a while, we should carefully investigate this single story There is the occasion of teaching. There is hearing the chirping of a swallow. There is unutterance of deeply expressing the truth. I'm sorry, this is true reality instead of form. Skillfully expanding the essence of Dharma. There is descending the platform.

[33:18]

Later, there is a monk asking further instructions, saying, I don't understand. There is the Master's saying, Get out of here. No one believes you. Although, I don't understand is not necessarily inquiring the true reality. It is lifeblood of Buddha's ancestor. This is the bones and marrow of the true Dharma I treasure. We should know that whether this monk gave the question saying, I can understand it or I can expand it, Xuanzang had to say, get out of here, no one believes you. It is not that Xuanzang said, get out of here, no one believes you, because the monk said that he did not understand, even though he actually understood it.

[34:33]

Truly, it may be the third son of Chang family, or the fourth son of Lee family, who is not this monk, or it may be the true reality of all beings. At the time and place where the lifeblood of Buddha ancestors permeates, the study of the true reality is manifesting itself in this way. Within the assembly of King Yen or Sei Gen, it has been already manifested. We should know that the true reality is the true lifeblood that has been authentically transmitted. All beings are only a Buddha together with a Buddha. but is completely penetrated and thoroughly studied.

[35:39]

Only a Buddha, together with a Buddha, is such a wonderful characteristic of Buddhas. So he, Dogen Zenji, quote another a koan story about Gensha Shuitsu. Gensha was the disciple of Seppo Washuu-fen, the person who said this entire world is the gate of revelation. Anyway, this person, Gensha, was giving a Dharma discourse on the platform in the Dharma Hall. Somehow, he heard the swallow chirping. Then, I think he quit talking and just said, the swallow is deeply expressing the true reality and skillfully expounding the essence of the Dharma.

[36:57]

He just said so. and get down from the platform. So that was the end of his discourse. Then, later a monk asked for instruction and said, I don't understand. So he asked for more explanation. But the master, Gensha, said, Get out of here. No one believes you. This is the story. And Dogen's comment. Upon hearing Gensha's utterance... Gensha's utterance means a swallow is deeply expressing the true reality. We may interpret that

[37:59]

deeply expressing the true reality means that only the swallow was expressing the true reality in depth. That means, when Gensha says this, it means, you know, the swallow, the bird, is expressing the true reality of all beings. You know, and Gensha, the Zen Master, heard hear that expanding, or the meaning of Swaro's chirping. So Swaro was expanding Dharma and Gensha hear the meaning of that expanding. And yet this monk didn't understand what the Swaro was saying. I think that is you know, understanding on the kind of a shallow understanding.

[39:04]

But Dogen said, that is not what this story means. You have something to say? OK. So, he said, never, it is not the case. While teaching, Gensha or Shuansha heard the swallow chirping, It is neither that the swallow was expressing the true reality, nor the Shunsha, the Zen Master, was deeply expressing the true reality. So, the sound of swallow chirping is just chirping. It has no such deep meaning in that sound. And that is not what the Gensha is saying. Because there is no such dualistic separation. That means the swallow chirping and Gensha, the Zen master, who is hearing the sound of the swallow.

[40:12]

There is no such separation. That is one dynamic total function. Somehow, swallow, chirping, gensha, hearing. It's like Ryokan's poem. When flower open, butterflies visit. It's not that flowers blooms itself in order to invite the butterfly, to collect the butterfly. But flower is just blooming, and somehow butterflies come. And this is not butterfly's kind of personal, you know, activity to get the nectar. But somehow, that is the life of butterfly. Just come to visit the flower.

[41:15]

And, you know, they support each other. Butterfly, flower offer nectar and the butterfly help the flower to spread the pollen. So this is how, you know, things are working in the world of interdependent ordination. So, what Dogen is saying is this interaction, this total function is that is the very roughness that is happening. is itself deeply expressing the true reality. So, there's no person hearing and no singing of sorrows. But this is one, how can I say, thing that is happening within this network, within this mountain, one scenery of the mountain. For a while, we should carefully investigate this single story.

[42:24]

There is the occasion of teaching. There is hearing the chirping of a swallow. There is an utterance of deeply expressing the true reality, skillfully expanding the essence of Dharma. There is descending the platform. Later, there is a monk asking further instructions, saying, I don't understand. There is the master saying, get out of here, no one believes you. Although, I don't understand is not necessarily inquiring the true reality. That means this is not a question. But this monk saying, I don't understand, is one expression of this true reality of all beings. It is lifeblood of Buddha ancestors.

[43:26]

That means this saying, I don't understand, no understanding, according to them, is the lifeblood of Buddha ancestors. That means there is no one who understands it and nothing to be understood. You know, he picked up all the elements of this story and he said, each and everything is really expressing the true reality of all beings. It's not a matter of only the swallow is discussing about reality. And only Gensha could hear that expanding. But all of these are all together expressing this reality of all beings. Please. So when Gensha says, no one believes you, is he, do you think, referring to... It would be like saying, you think you don't understand, but that's because you have a limited view of your own.

[44:33]

understanding. So, no one will believe you means you really understand even though you think you don't understand. I think that is what Dogen, you know, pointed, that is not true. I mean, faith is... Dogen said later, it is not that Gensha said, get out of here, no one believes you, because the monk said that he did not understand even though he actually understood it. So this is exactly what you are saying. It's opposite. I mean, Dogen's interpretation is that, you know, the monk said, I don't believe it. That means there's no I, and there's nothing to be believed. That is, I think, Dogen's interpretation of this saying, I don't believe it. I don't understand it. Then, what Gensha said is, Gensha agreed to prove this monk's saying, I don't understand it.

[45:47]

That means there is no one who believes it. There is no person who has to believe it, and nothing that should have to be believed. I don't understand and no one believes it is the same thing. I think that is Dogen's interpretation. So this is my interpretation of Dogen's interpretation. So don't believe it. No one believe it, please. How is it that the swallow and this fellow saying, I don't understand how are the how are those statements expressing the true reality of all these? Oh yeah. I mean, apparently they are right. But how? How so? Oh, I don't know. Are you saying that you don't understand?

[46:50]

Probably I don't understand your question. You know, what about the swallow is deeply expressing the true reality and skillfully expounding the essence of the Dharma? And what about I do not understand shows us the true reality of all beings? Maybe my mind doesn't work well. You're not understanding my question. Well, maybe not. Well, apparently these two statements here express the true reality of all beings. How? Can you explain that to me? How they explain the true reality of all beings? Okay. What Dogen is talking is not the meaning of each sentence. But, you know, swallow is just chirping.

[47:53]

And that is itself reality of all, true reality. Or in Dogen's expression, self-expression of true reality. And Gensha also, Gensha said, you know, the swallow is expressing, deeply expressing the true reality. Not Gensha's observation, but true reality is expressing itself through Gensha. And the monk's, I don't know, is also expression of true reality through the monk. So this story is pointing to this teaching that Dogen keeps coming back to, that what's, you know, kind of how things are now, the reality is as they are. Is this the true reality that we're talking about all the time? Yes, yes, I think so. Everything that is happening within that story is altogether expressing the true reality.

[48:57]

Okay, it just seems way more complicated. Please. When you say expressing true reality, could you also say creating true reality? Creating. What creating means? Making? Making means fabricating? Embodying? Creating? Like when you make something? Create something? I think it depends on how to interpret each word to what is creating means. Creating is something like fabricating.

[50:02]

One may think, I don't think so, but even the question or not understanding is an expression of true reality. Expressing, in my mind, means already exists. and it already exists and he sort of sees it and talks about it. Creating it means that it comes, the spirit brings it into being. It's not, it wasn't there until then. Is it already there? No. It's not there. So it was created, true reality was created at the time the person is saying. That's interesting. Anyway, the original word in the story is Dan. And Jin... Jin... Dan.

[51:10]

Jin is deep. And Dan is more like discussing, talking, using words. like a conversation or dialogue. But if you use the word creating, as you said, I think that is right. I mean, we need to... but the swallow is creating, you know, the true reality. That means the early spring. And then swallows are In Japan, when swallows came, swallows is migrating bird, came to Japan around June. That was the time of planting rice. So farmers are working on the rice paddies. And swallows may build their nest on the farming

[52:18]

house underneath the roof and they are chirping. That is a Japanese kind of typical scenery in that season. And that season was in the midst of rainy season. So we had a lot of rain and therefore many small insects come out. And those are the food for the swallows. So swallows chirping, to me, implies the entire scenery of that season. So swallows chirping is not the person just singing for entertainment. But swallow chirping means it shows that entire scenery of the time.

[53:25]

That swallow is coming and chirping and building a nest and feeding their babies. That means insects are there. And at the same time, human farmers are working on the rice paddy. in the water and planting the rice plants. That entire thing happening with these swallows chirping is the true reality of all beings. Gensha is saying that Swaro is deeply expressing or discussing true reality, not only that Swaro as a person or as an individual being talking about true reality, but the condition that Swaro came.

[54:28]

Swaro came from South and, you know, an insect for other food of swallows, and there are houses, farmer's houses, and all that, you know, working, functioning. Life is moving around within that season. That is true expression, or truly, deeply expressing true reality. So, unless we don't, we cannot image That entire scenery with the swallow, it's kind of difficult to understand what Gensha is saying, or what Dogen wants to say. Please. I think what there is is quite interesting because it breaks down the story into each element. because another thing happens and there's reasons for it.

[55:38]

So when he breaks it down into these unique elements, it changes that cause and effect. I talked about the intersection. I think he called it dharma movement. Dharma position. They each sort of become a dharma position. Yeah, I think that is a good point. And also he, you know, picked up all those elements, I think, as each and every note of things. That means reality is not one circle without anything. But this is a network of interdependent origination. So just seeing the emptiness as an empty circle is not enough. As Dogen said in Genjo Koan, we should see each and every thing that make up or create this entire scenery.

[56:50]

In this case, scenery of rainy season. So, Chang-san. I'm wondering about this dharma position. Your dharma position would be to be a Zen teacher and a Dogen scholar, and my dharma position is to be a student here at the Zen Center, and a chaplain at UCSF, and live in room 42, and have the books that I have on the shelf. What about responsibility? How does this sense of responsibility fit into that? I mean, I happen to have, I think, a pretty fortunate dharma position, right? And it's not because of anything I've done, but rather because all these other things have formed my life the way it is. So is it just like, do other people just have a dharma position of, say, a drug addict or an abusive police officer or what?

[57:54]

I'm not sure. about other people. But in my case, of course, I have one dharma position. And I'm not sure it's fortunate or not fortunate. But I appreciate it. And I think... I have some responsibility or something to do. given from my teacher, and given from this sangha, and given from my family, and given from my sangha. That is my responsibility, and that is not an easy thing to do. You can only meet those responsibilities because of your Dharma position. Yes. Let's say you were a really lousy Zen teacher, and a horrible father,

[58:59]

That is the true reality of me. Could we then say, well, that's okay because that's your Dharma position? I don't think it's never okay. Because we live in this interdependent with this network of interdependent origination, does that mean that whatever is going on is totally fine? I don't think so. We take Bodhisattva vow and we receive Buddha's precept. That is our vow. So, Fat Dogen's talking is the thing that he can see in the path of Bodhisattva practice. So, when we are irresponsible, we are against our own vow.

[60:10]

So, we make repentance, practice repentance, and try to return to the way we vowed to go. See, I don't know, because once again, the only reason I'm wearing this ragsuit and other people aren't. It's because, you know, because of this network of... So it's not like, it's not like you have this network up there and then like there's this like magical thing called the bow that you plug in and then all of a sudden you have all this responsibility. I think bow is not a magical thing. But when we see that network, I think we cannot avoid to take that vow. That is my understanding. That means when we really see the network, our possible way of life is to live as a part of that network, in a healthy part of that network.

[61:19]

I think that is our vow. It's not something, you know, mystical that is given from 13 authority. But everything's in there. Oh yes. Please. I think it's a very good question. I think there was a story where the student asked the teacher a question and the teacher says, that's a good question, now go away. This is very difficult. What you're asking is very difficult. There's no answer to what you're asking, but we keep practicing with it for a long, long time. The kind of question you're asking. There are many questions in what you're asking. But I had a question too. Please. So I'm still. caught, stuck on swansas, saying, no one believes you.

[62:26]

What did he mean when he said, no one believes you? Or what did Dogon say he meant? There is no explanation in the story, so we have to interpret. And Dogen is one of the possible interpreters, and his interpretation is very unique, always. We can understand this story as, you know, Gensha could hear the swallow chirping as an expression of true reality, but this monk really didn't understand what Gensha is saying. But Gensha said, You know, reality is already in this monk's, you know, entire body.

[63:36]

This monk is really living already in that reality. So, that's why even the monk said, I don't understand, but no one believed that this person don't understand. That is one possible understanding, I think. That's what Dogen is saying. So, according to Dogen's interpretation, what Monk said, I don't understand, is an expression of Monk's understanding. That means, you know, before Dogen used this word, understanding, in two ways. One is usual. He, Dogen, you see in Shohojiso, and I talked about that.

[64:49]

E and Fue. And A, this is the word the monk used. Understand. So he said, not understand. And A is understand. Fue is not understand. Of course, as a common language, understand is good. And not understand means this person is not smart. He couldn't get it. That is a common usage of not understanding. So not understanding is negative expression. I'm sorry, but I don't understand. But probably, Dogen's interpretation is what Bank said, using not understand is like, as I said, when we learn how to drive, first we have to understand.

[65:58]

the part of the car and how to operate it. And when we understand, and when we really, you know, get used to driving, then without understanding, we can drive without making mistakes. That is what hui, not understanding, means. So, not understanding is embodying. I really embody that reality. That is one possible... Dogen didn't say, so this is my interpretation of Dogen's... my guess of Dogen's interpretation. So, in that case, when the monk said, I don't understand, means this true reality of all beings is not a matter of understanding or not. But I am really part of it. And I'm living out that reality.

[67:03]

That might be one interpretation. Please. I don't understand why that character is understood. Pardon me? I don't understand why that character is understood. Eh? What does that mean? Eh is to meet, but this is also means to understand, to know. To meet means to know. Let's see. For example, we use expressions such as etoku. Etoku is to gain. This means to understand and gain it. That means I must learn it. I completely understand. That's why you say sometimes that people are all people.

[68:09]

Is that the same? They understand each other? Yes. Please. In a sentence, it is not that Chuang-cha said, get out of here, no one believes you. I think there's another possibility. Yeah, that is, I think, more common understanding. I mean... No, it's not clear. The story is really simple. Same as, you know, many koan stories. So there are many possible interpretations. I think that is the purpose of the koan. So the monk says, I do not understand. The master says, get out of here. Which could mean that... So whether he gets it or not, no one's going to believe him because he embodies this truth in himself.

[69:20]

Or the monk is misleading. I don't think that's likely. I don't think so. I think Steve kind of answered this thing when he was speaking to Trevor about that's a good question. I'll get out of here. I don't know if the monk understood or not. And when he says, no one believes you, it's really kind of another way of saying, that's a good question. But before, he says, get out of here. You've got to work on it. Right. So, you know, all these, you know, all these conversations, questions, answers, and expressions, all together is the true reality of all beings. I think that is what Dogen wants to say. And that is so true reality of all beings as Nagarjuna, not Nagarjuna, but Kumarajiva said is itself Nirvana.

[70:25]

So, when Dogen discusses about the true reality of all beings, he is discussing about Nirvana, what is Nirvana. And Nirvana is just as things are. So we, nirvana means free from suffering, is to awaken to this reality of all beings and to live, how can I say, not following, but participating in this movement of reality of all beings. And that is our practice. Just this is it. Yes. So, whatever way we interpret the meaning of these words, it's okay. I'm sorry. Get out of here.

[71:27]

Tomorrow, I'll be back. Here we are. So Dogen said, this monk's word, I don't understand, is the bones and marrow of the true Dharma I treasure. So I think he, Dogen, interpreted this saying in a positive way. Not knowing is itself true reality. There's a koan that not knowing is most intimate. Top of page 26. So this, you know, true Dharma I treasure is Shobo Genzo. So, he said, this not knowing is the essence of this Shobo Genzo.

[72:30]

Shobo Genzo is the point or thing he wants to show us, you know, with this ninety or more writings. This not knowing might be the reality itself before, in Uchiyama Roshi's expression, being cooked by our thinking. Being cooked by our thinking, being processed by our intellectual thinking, or dualistic views, the reality as it is. And within this reality as it is, our thinking is included. That makes the situation complicated. So just closing our mouth is not enough. We have to say something. OK.

[73:35]

A little more. We should know that whether this monk gave the question saying, I can understand it or I can expand it. Gensha had to say, get out of here, no one believes you. So even the monks said, I can understand, I really get it. Gensha had to say, no one believes you. Because it's not a matter of discussion or as a discussion using words. So, no one believes, this reality of all beings doesn't believe what people are saying, what people are thinking. But reality is before our interpretation, or our thinking, or our judgment. But as a part of this reality of all beings,

[74:41]

I always said, our thinking and evaluation, judgment, fighting, argument, all are there. So, it is not that Gensha said, get out of here, no one believes you, because the monk said that he did not understand, even though he actually understood it. So, he's trying to show the reality before any words, or understanding, or expression. And he said, this entire situation is expressing that reality. Truly, it may be the third son of Chang family, or the fourth son of Lee family, This refers to Chang and Li are very common family names in China.

[75:46]

And third son or fourth son means not important. I mean, in Chinese and Japanese society, not today, the oldest son takes over family, business, position, and wealth. So third and fourth son is not important. So this third son of Chan family or the fourth son of Lee family means no one special. That means common people, like us. Who is not this monk, or it may be the true reality of all beings, you know, Each and everything, nothing special beings are true reality of all beings. At the time and place where the lifeblood of Buddha's ancestor permeates, that means, of course, this network of interdependent origination, the study of the true reality is manifesting itself in this way.

[77:03]

In this way means How can I say? Trying to express, understand, and express it, express the reality beyond wording, beyond understanding, beyond discrimination, using our discrimination. That is the way we study and practice the Dharma. Somehow we have to use our discrimination, our discriminating mind, in order to understand and explain or express this reality beyond thinking. So, again here, thinking and not thinking, and beyond thinking are working together. This thinking and not thinking are part of beyond thinking. So, again, there are three things, and two things opposite are working as one.

[78:08]

It is called beyond thinking. So, this is the same as three truths in Ten-Light Teaching. That is, truth of provision, and emptiness, and middle. So that is the same thing. So we can see the reality from the angle of thinking and from the angle of not thinking and from the angle of beyond thinking. You know, all those people are trying to say something from different perspectives. And finally Dogen said, within the assembly of Queen Iwan, Queen Iwan is Seigen. Seigen is a disciple of Sixth Ancestor Huinan and one of the ancestors in our lineage, in Dogen's lineage.

[79:20]

And both Seppo and Gensha is from with Seigen's lineage. Probably, I think that is what Dogen meant. Within the assembly of Seigen, it has been already manifested. So, the question is, what about Nangaku's lineage? This is a question from people in Rinzai tradition. So, even though Dogen Zenji didn't use even the word Soto-shu or Zen-shu, but still he has some kind of a... from people in Rinzai tradition, Dogen still has some clinging to his own lineage. So he's not completely free from that kind of idea.

[80:22]

And I think that is true. He is trying to establish his own practice at his own monastery. So he needs some identity. Even though he knows that identity is a kind of a fiction, I think. OK, final paragraph. We should know that the true reality is the true lifeblood. that has been authentically transmitted. So this true Shobo-jizo is really important in Dogen's lineage. And all beings are only a Buddha, together with a Buddha. That is completely penetrated and thoroughly studied. This is exactly the same with what he said in the very beginning of this writing.

[81:28]

And only a Buddha together with a Buddha, or yui-butsu, yo-butsu, is such a wonderful characteristic of Buddhas. I'm not sure this is a good translation or not. But what he said is, Nyoze, so-ko or so-go, Yuyibutsu, Yoyobutsu, only Buddha, together with the Buddha, is Nyoze. So go. So go wa so ko. Either is possible. Nyoze is, of course, Sachi. or dustness. And so go, refer to, you know, Buddha has thirty-two characteristics or marks or forms, and also eighty, eighty-what?

[82:42]

Minor marks. Thirty-two is called san-ju-ni... So, and 80 minor marks is called ko, hachijushu ko. So, so and ko refer to these characteristics or marks of Buddhas. So, his saying is, yuibutsu yuibutsu, only Buddha, together with Buddha, is all so-and-so characteristics or forms or marks of Nyoze. So, Yubitsu Yobitsu, I think, as Dogen said before, is each and every being coming and going, arising and perishing. That is only Buddha and also together with Buddha.

[83:44]

And all Buddha's, Mark's, God's, Dasa's, Vasa's, Satsang's. Only put it together with a Buddha is the... I'm sorry. The new day is... New day is Satsang. Satsang. So, literally, Yuyubutsu is such sogo, or sogo as suchness or suchness. Wonderful marks. Yeah, something like that. Marks of suchness. That's good. So, Yuyubutsu of the only Buddha and together with Buddha,

[84:46]

is or are marks of suchness. Wonderful marks of suchness. That's good. Thank you. Well, that's the end of this chapter. I really appreciate your patience. Thank you very much.

[85:10]

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