Good afternoon. This afternoon I'm going to talk on section 11 that starts page 88, the bottom of page 88. This section is a little longer than before, so I first read the original story, Koran story, and later I'm going to talk paragraph by paragraph. Page 88. Hyuan-po. Hyuan-po is Ōbaku in Japanese pronunciation. Obaku is Ihsan. Obaku is Hyakujo's disciple. Therefore, Ihsan's, Ihsan Reiyu, the person who said no buddhanatures, Dharma brother.

[01:07]

And also, he was a teacher of Rinzai, the founder of Rinzai school in China. So, Shampo, Shuampo, or Obaku, was sitting in Nanchuan's tea room. Nanchuan is Nansen. And Nansen is Hyakujo's dharma brother. So, Obaku's dharma uncle. So it seems Obaku was practicing with his teacher's dharma brother. So, was sitting in Nanchuan's tea room. Not in the zendo, but in the tea room. Nansen, let me use Japanese pronunciation. Nansen said, practicing Dhyana and Prajna equally, you clearly see the Buddha nature.

[02:15]

That is the essence of that teaching. Hsuan Po said, or Obaku said, the essence is attained when you are not depending on a single thing without the 24 hours. Nansen said, Elder, Elder Monk, isn't that the attainment you yourself have achieved? Obaku said, no, not at all. Nansen said, forget for now about the cost of the food and drink you have had here. Who's going to pay for those straw sandals of yours? With that, Obaku abandoned the conversation. This is the story.

[03:18]

You understand? This saying, Obaku, not Obaku, but Nansen quote, asks to Obaku, In this translation, where is it? Practicing Dhyana and Prajna equally, you clearly see the Buddha nature, is another quotation from the Parinibbana Sutra. The expression is, Jyo E To Gaku Myo Ken Bushi Sho Jyo E To Gaku Myo Ken

[04:49]

Jō in this translation is translated as Dhyāna. Dhyāna is Zen or Chan in Sanskrit. But usually this Jō is a translation of Samādhi, not Dhyāna. And E is Wisdom or Prajna in Sanskrit. To is equal, or equally study or practice. Myo is clearly, ken is see, buddha nature. So this means if or when you or we study samādhi and wisdom equally, you will see the Buddha-nature clearly."

[05:58]

That's the translation of this quotation. And Mansen's question is, what is this, what is the essence of, the original word is dhī. is reason or principle. So what is the principle of this saying, this teaching, is Manchen's question. In the Parinibbana Sutra, when the sutra discusses about the Buddha nature, that is a chapter of Shishiku, capital of the Lion's Roar. In order to see the Buddha nature, Sutra discussed the practice of Samadhi and Prajna.

[07:06]

And according to, I think it's kind of unusual, but according to the Sutra, what the Sutra is saying is Samadhi means Samatha and this wisdom means Vipassana. Samatha is Si in Chinese or Japanese and Vipassana is Kan. Si and Kan is the translation of Samatha and Vipassana. And Si, Chinese character seems to stop. And Kan is to see. So sometimes this shikan translates as stopping and seeing. And according to the sutra, samādhi means

[08:13]

We don't take the shape or color of the object, and we don't make any discrimination. So stop making discrimination is shamatha, or stopping. So this is no discrimination. And vipashyana, or wisdom, is to see the object clearly and make distinction. That is, jō and e, samata and vipassana. Usually, especially in Mahāyāna Buddhism, prajñā is called, prajñā is defined as no discriminating wisdom, wisdom beyond wisdom, or wisdom beyond discrimination. It seems, at least according to this Parinibbana Sutra, that wisdom is, this Samadhi is, no discrimination.

[09:29]

And wisdom means discrimination beyond non-discrimination. Does it make sense? Discrimination, usually our human discrimination, is delusion, based on like and dislike, or preference. And practice of vipassana, samatha, is to stop that, stop discrimination, and just calm down. we saw no discrimination. But Buddha's wisdom is not that condition of stopping. But somehow Buddha stood up from the sitting and walked to the deer park to teach. And in order to teach, he again had to use wisdom.

[10:33]

And in order to talk, of course, I think Buddha needs to make discrimination or distinction. And also, when someone asks questions, in order to understand the person's question, Buddha needs a discriminating mind. In order to understand the problems or suffering, Buddha needs to make separation. But that wisdom, or separation, or discriminating wisdom, is beyond discrimination. I think that is the idea. And the sutra says, how can I say, it's not three steps, but Zhou, Ei, and Xia.

[11:47]

The sutra discusses Xia. Xia, as a Chinese character, literally means throw away, give up. But sometimes, as a Buddhist term, sha is used as a neutral, like as a sensation, present, unpleasant, and neutral. This neutral is sha. Present is rak, and unpleasant is ku. and neutral is shā. So kūraku-shā. These three kinds of sensations we receive. But here, shā means to be equal. And to be equal here means to be well balanced.

[12:51]

That means jō and e. need to be equal and well-balanced. That means non-discrimination and discrimination should be well-balanced. That's what this jyo-e-to-gaku means. So this to means sha. Jyo and e should be well-balanced. Then, what is that? And it said some people are good at practice or cultivate samadhi, no discrimination. And some people are good at cultivating wisdom, discrimination. But the people who are good at practicing or cultivating samadhi should learn wisdom.

[13:56]

And people who are good at wisdom need to cultivate samādhi. That is how these two, jō and e, can be well balanced. And the sutra says, Bodhisattvas are usually good at In wisdom, you know, in the Mahayana Sutra, Prajna is the most important thing. That's why, you know, the first important Mahayana Sutra is Prajna Paramita Sutra. That means within six parameters, Prajna Paramita is the most important primary practice. So, Bodhisattva cultivate wisdom, or prajna. And yet, the sutra says, Śrāvaka and Pratyekabuddhas cultivate more samādhi than wisdom.

[15:10]

So, Pratyekabuddha, Śrāvaka and Pratyekabuddha doesn't see clearly. But Bodhisattva is not good at cultivating samādhi. So they make distinction. So both are not well balanced. But it's said the Buddha, all Buddhas, Buddhas and world-honored ones, can, not can, but do, equally study jo and e, samadhi and wisdom. So Buddha, Buddhas can see the Buddha nature clearly. That is what this sutra is saying.

[16:16]

So, in this sutra, samadhi, that is, no discrimination. That no discrimination means everything is one thing. No separation. And discrimination means everything has its own unique nature, and nature, form, body, energy, and function. The first five of the ten suchnesses, I talked from the Lotus Sutra. So, maybe we can say, A is the aspect of wu buddha nature, and jo is the aspect of mu buddha nature. and we need to use both equally in order to see the Buddha-nature.

[17:25]

That is the meaning of the quote in this sutra. And this Zōe Tōgaku, which is equally studying Samadhi and Prajna, is one of the important teachings of the Platform Sutra of the Huinan, or the Sixth Ancestor. The Platform Sutra, we can find such teaching as follows. Eno, or Huinan, said, Good friends, my teaching of the Dharma takes meditation. Here, meditation is Jo. or samādhi, and wisdom as its basis. So, samādhi and wisdom is a base of Shūinan's teaching.

[18:35]

He said, never under any circumstances say mistakenly that meditation and wisdom, jo and e, are different. They are unity, not two things. So, in the sutra, in the case of Parinibbana Sutra, these are two things, and we need to study and practice both equally. So if we sit two hours, we have to study two hours. That's the idea. But Hinan said, jo and e, or samadhi and meditation, are one and same thing. It's not a matter of well-balanced. Meditation itself is a substance of wisdom. This substance is tai.

[19:40]

or same as body in the Ken-suchness. And meditation itself is a substance of wisdom, and wisdom itself is a function of meditation. Function is you. Thay and you are two very important concepts. In Chinese philosophy, not only Buddhism, but also Taoism, too. Tai is the thing itself, and you is that function. You know, in the Lao Tzu, dōtoku, or virtue of the Tao, is the same thing. Tao is Tai, and toku, or virtue, is you. So, anything has its own substance or tai and its function. So samadhi and wisdom are one and the same thing.

[20:55]

And samadhi is tai or substance. Right? Meditation is a substance of wisdom. And wisdom or discrimination, make distinction, is a function of samadhi. So, no discrimination and discrimination should be one. And the substance is non-discrimination. And this no discrimination function within our daily lives as a discriminating wisdom, as a A. And at the very moment, when there is Wisdom. If there is Wisdom, then Meditation or Samadhi exists in Wisdom.

[21:56]

At the very moment when there is Meditation, then Wisdom exists in Meditation. So Meditation is itself Samadhi. Meditation is itself Wisdom. And wisdom is itself samādhi. So it's not two... samatha and vipassana are not two separate things we have to equally study. But when we have... we practice, cultivate samatha, wisdom is already there, or vipassana is already there. When we practice vipassana, samatha is already there. That is... Huinan's teaching. So it's kind of different, a little different from the Parinibbana Sutras. And, good friends, this means that meditation and wisdom are alike, same thing.

[23:04]

Students, be careful not to say that meditation gives rise to wisdom. Meditation gives rise to wisdom. It's a kind of a common understanding, you know. Vijnana, Vinaya, Samadhi, and Wisdom are called the three basic studies. And a common understanding of those three basic studies is Of course, when we become a Buddhist monk, we need to receive Vinaya precept. And that is the way we regulate and harmonize our daily lives. That is a preparation to study samadhi or meditation. When our daily lives is not well organized, you know, it's not possible to sit quietly. If we have so many confusion and problems and competition in our daily lives and then we try to sit quietly, it's very difficult at all, at least.

[24:19]

So in order to sit quietly in peace, we need to pacify or organize our life. And that is why we need to keep the precept. And, you know, calm down our mind is shamatha or meditation. And when we calm down, our mind calm down and become clear, then we can see things clearly as wisdom. Then we have to see the reality of each and everything. That is the basic idea. of three basic studies, Vinaya, Samadhi, and Wisdom. But what Shunran is saying here is, we should not say that meditation gives rise to wisdom.

[25:25]

So this is not a kind of a step. You know, this Jo, Samadhi, is not a preparation to study wisdom. Or that wisdom gives rise to meditation. So these two are not a matter of cause and result. These two are not two, but one and same thing. Or that meditation and wisdom are different from each other. To hold this view implies that Things have duality. If good is spoken while the mind is not good, meditation and wisdom will not be alike. If mind and speech are both good, then the internal and the external are the same, and meditation and wisdom are alike.

[26:30]

The practice of self-awakening does not lie in verbal argument. Verbal argument, using words and concepts. If you argue, if you argue, which comes first, meditation or wisdom, you are deluded people. So it's not a matter of which is first. These two are at the same time. you won't be able to settle the argument, and instead will cling to objective things, and will never escape from the false state of phenomena, anyway. So, if Schreiner said, Joe and A are one and the same thing, it's not a matter of well-balanced or not. And, of course, Joe Nansen is a third generation from the Sixth Patriarch, I mean, Huinan.

[27:35]

So, he must know, I mean, Nansen must know this teaching of Huinan. And that is the question Nansen gave to his, I think at that time, Obaku was studying in his assembly, so he was a student of Nansen. To me it's kind of difficult to understand what this story means, so I tried to find out what's the relationship between Nansen and Obaku. And I... try to find the stories, other stories, between, about Nansen and Obaku. And in the Record of Dharma Lamp, or Keitoku Dento Roku, I found three stories, and the third one is this one, this story.

[28:46]

But in the first one, it was, to me it's interesting, and it has some connection with this story. That is, the story says, when Nansen, the abbot of the monastery, holding Oryoki, and entered the monk's hall, that means to have meals. Then somehow, at the highest seat, Obako was sitting. The story says it's the dai ichi za. Dai ichi means first seat. And dai ichi za, first seat, usually means the seat for shuso, or head monk. But it seems he was not, Obaku was not head monk. So that was not his seat.

[29:49]

But somehow Obaku was sitting in the highest seat. And I'm not sure whether she saw the seat or not. It seems that seat was for Nansen, the abbot. But somehow Obakwa was sitting on that seat when Nansen came in. So the abbot had no seat to sit. And that's the story. And even when Obaku saw the abbot come in, he didn't move. Then Nansen asked, the literal translation is, he called Obaku as Choro.

[30:57]

Choro literally means elder. In what era or age did you practice? I think it means, how long have you been practicing? How long have you been practicing? That means you are still junior. And avatars coming. But you don't move. You don't offer the seat. How long have you been practicing? Then Obaku said, I have been practicing since the time of, what is it, Kuo. This is the name of Buddha. Kuo literally means empty king. Empty king Buddha. That means before anything happens. So this saying is something like, I have been practicing since Big Bang.

[32:03]

But Nansen said, if so, you are still my dharma grandson. So that means Nansen is saying, I am practicing longer than that. So he said, so move. The story doesn't say. I guess so. Otherwise, no later story. I think it means Obakuwa was still very young. And yet he thought he attained something called enlightenment. So I don't care anything. You know, the seniority, or the orders in the monastery, or rules, regulations, all those are all conventional things.

[33:15]

I don't care. That kind of, I think, attitude. You know, so-called half-baked Zen practitioners are like that. I think that was the stage of Obaku. So he was pretty much, how can I say, elegant. Because of his understanding and practice and maybe his grasping to his so-called enlightenment. And in that case, that is kind of a sickness of them. It means, I don't care anything. No discrimination, no separation, no conventional thing. I see the absolute truth. I think Nansen saw that sickness of Obaku through his attitude.

[34:29]

So I think this story is a continuation of that incident. So, he is asking, you know, if you really see the Buddha nature or true reality, you have to practice Zho and E. It means discrimination and non-discrimination should be together. But you ignore discrimination and only see beyond discrimination. And that is not complete. So you should see the discrimination again. That means your practice is not yet complete. So, I think that is the meaning of his question. First is the principle of this teaching. Zho and E, Samadhi and Wisdom, or discrimination and non-discrimination.

[35:36]

Then, Obaku's answer is probably as Nansen expected. You know, the essence or principle of this teaching is attained when you are not depending on a single thing throughout the 24 hours. That means, I don't depend on anything. I am me. That's it. I have no interdependent origination with others, and perfect, complete. This is a kind of delusional absolute truth. And then this is also a kind of ignorance of interdependent origination. That's why Nansen said, Elder Monk, isn't that the attainment you yourself have achieved?

[36:46]

That you are still your own personal, in this translation, attainment, but the original word used in Chinese is kensho. Kensho is view. So isn't it your own personal view? And Obak said, no, not at all. No, not at all means yes, it is. Dogen explained this expression later. Then Nansen said, forget for now about the cost of the food and drink you've had here. Who's going to pay for those straw sandals of yours? That means in order to attain or gain such views, you have been practicing many years.

[37:53]

And who pays the food and drink? and who pay for the straw sandals to travel, to visit teachers, to practice. That means, even though you have such a view, that I'm independent, still, you know, you could practice in that way from the help or support of many people. If your view is such a kind of one-sided, the person doesn't see interdependence, relationship with others, connection with others. If your view is still such a limited, how can you return the money for the food you receive and for the straw sandals you are offered when you travel to practice.

[38:59]

That means you have been practicing in this way and you have such a view and yet you are still supported by so many people. How can you return that kind of debt of kindness to those people? I think that is the meaning of this original story. This is my own personal view, as like Ōbaku's. So maybe it's not correct. But this is my understanding. So, then, with that, Hyuampo, or Ōbaku, abandoned the conversation with He became quiet. He stopped talking. I think that is the meaning of this story.

[40:04]

But, as usual, Dogen Zenji interprets this story in a completely different way. Now Dogen start to talk. The essential meaning of practicing Vyāna or samādhi and prajñā equally, jōge tōgaku, is not. Since the practice of Vyāna does not infringe on the practice of prajñā, you clearly see the Buddha-nature when both are practiced equally. This is what the Parinibbana Sutra is saying. If we study Jo and E equally, then we can see the Buddha-nature clearly.

[41:07]

But Dogen said, this does not mean that. So, in that sense, Dogen is closer to the human's understanding. Rather, it is clearly seeing the Buddha-nature is a practice in which Dhyana and Prajna, or Samadhi and Prajna, are in equal balance. That means seeing the, seeing, clear seeing of Buddha-nature is the, in a sense, basic thing. Because of this, we can practice equally Jo and E. That means discrimination and non-discrimination. Only because we can see that, only because, only when we see the Buddha nature clearly, we can use

[42:12]

discrimination and no discrimination equally. I think that is what Dogen is saying. It's not a matter of, as a result of practicing those two equally, you can see the Buddha nature clearly. But this should be the first. And Nansen is articulating, what is the meaning of that? So Dogen, again, doesn't read Nansen's question in the story as a question, but he reads as a statement. What is the meaning of that? means this fat is again the word which refers to or points out the lustiness. Same as ka, fat.

[43:16]

So fat, this fat, the reality beyond any fat. I forget. any definition or naming, is the meaning of this teaching, meaning or principle of this teaching, Jōei Tōgaku Myōken Busshō. And, he is, in effect, saying that, by saying, what is the meaning of that? This is Nansen's statement. Clearly seeing the buddha nature is the act of who. Who is the person without definition, without condition, unconditioned person. And that is buddha nature.

[44:20]

So clearly seeing buddha nature is the act of buddha nature. That means Buddha-nature clearly sees the Buddha-nature. It's not a matter of this deluded person. If I practice jo and e-calling, I can see Buddha-nature. If we interpret this in this way, this is still subject, object, and some kind of happening between, or within the encountering between subject and object. But Dogen said that is not the case. He said, Buddha nature is clearly seeing the Buddha nature. And because of that, we can practice both samadhi and wisdom, or we can use discrimination and non-discrimination equally. And this discrimination and non-discrimination can be

[45:26]

In our zazen, thinking and not thinking. And this buddha nature, seeing the buddha nature is hishiryo, or beyond thinking. Thinking, not thinking, beyond thinking. So this is, according to Dogen, this is a description of our Zazen, what is happening. Joei Togakke, Myoken Bussho, practice Dhyana, or Samadhi and Wisdom, or thinking and not thinking, or not thinking and thinking. The Buddha nature, So this is not really to see something, subject, see object. But, according to Dogen, this ken is to, same as gen, gen in genjo koan, that means buddha, that means manifestation.

[46:38]

So buddha nature manifests itself as a form of thinking and not thinking. I think that is how Dogen Zenji read this conversation. Using it as a form of thinking and not thinking. Yeah. In terms of letting go, this actually is the question. I think this relates in terms of letting go. Yeah. How does that work? Yeah, within letting go, this is happening. Letting go means I don't control. I don't see. I don't... chase after our thinking. At that time, you know, the Nāna-rupa ceases to be a Nāna-rupa. Then each and everything appears as they are. I think that is how Buddha Nature, seeing the Buddha Nature clearly, or Buddha Nature, manifest Buddha Nature itself.

[47:45]

So this is the description of Jijūzanmai, or Awazazen. OK? To say, if you practice Buddha and nature equally, you will clearly see the Buddha-nature. I am not... I don't agree with this translation. The original sentence is, instead of jō-e, dōgen, instead of jō-e, put busshō. Busshō tōgaku. Yōken busshō. And that's why this translates, I think, butsu and shō, Buddha and nature equally studying. then clearly see Buddha nature. But I don't think that's what Dōgen meant.

[48:50]

Busshō Pōgaku means this Buddha nature equally study. Equally study means use both Jō and Re. Samadhi and wisdom, or thinking and not thinking. That is the way Buddha-nature clearly sees the Buddha-nature. And what is the meaning of that? What is the meaning of that? This is, again, not a question. It is also an authentic utterance of truth. So, this is a description of reality of our Zazen. And Hsuan-po said, or Obaku said, when you are not depending on a single thing throughout the 24 hours, essentially this means even though the 24 hours exist within the 24 hours of each day, they are non-depending.

[50:03]

statement by Dogen has something to do with what he discussed in Uji, being time. And in the Uji, he discussed two, not kind or type, but two kind of time. One is a time within each day. You know, for example, we wake up at 4.30 during this retreat, And we sit from 5 to 4, 15 minutes. And we practice kihin for 10 minutes. And we sit again. And after that we have breakfast. That is how we think the time is. And we try to follow that schedule. That is a kind of a time in our common sense. But in Shobo Genzo Uji, he discussed, this is not only time we experience.

[51:10]

There's another, I don't know the word, type, or kind, or layer, or whatever. But the time which doesn't move. The time which doesn't pass away. The time is always there, always this moment. And from the time of Big Bang and until the endless end, this is one moment. The, you know, divide time using the length such as one day, one year, one day, or one minute, one second, is our convention. It's not real time. It's our human-made, you know, convention. Actual time doesn't really move, doesn't pass. There's no such separation. So in our conventional idea of time, depending upon what time is it, you know, we sit in the zen, and we stand up, and do teaching, and because this is a time of lecture, I have to give a talk.

[52:31]

even though I don't want to. This is depending on the time, depending on the time and the conditions. We try to think what is the best thing to do, what is my responsibility, what is my duty. But he said, I mean, Dogen's interpretation of what Xuanzang is saying is that when Xuanzang said, for 24 hours, I never depend on anything, means this time and this being is not individual, particular person within particular time, within the conventional flows of time.

[53:38]

But this one moment, from the big bang to the endless end, this is one time. And this one time does not depend on anything. There is no foundation beyond that. And within this time, things are interdependent and changing, but the entirety of that movement depends on nothing. That's it. I think that is Dogen's interpretation of this saying of Obaku. So, Dogen doesn't understand Obaku's saying as his arrogance. But I am alone. I can stand by myself. I don't rely on anything. But he interpreted this saying of Obaku as the expression of the absolute reality on which, you know, things are coming and going and always changing.

[54:59]

interdependent, still the totality of this interdependent origination depends on nothing. And because not depending on a single thing is within the 24 hours, it is the Buddha-nature clearly seen. That's how Buddha-nature clearly seen the Buddha-nature. So the reality itself, it's not a matter of I can see it or I can live without relying on others. As for the 24 hours, 10 is not the time of their arrival. That means, this is what Dogen said in Uji and also in Previously in this writing, Buddha Nature, he discusses about in order to see Buddha Nature we have to see temporal conditions.

[56:12]

I think in section 2. So time has always arrived. That means this is only time we can live, we can see, we can practice. The time in fat land does their arrival not occur. That means everywhere, all where, everywhere this present moment has arrived. And that is only time that exists. Ah, the 24 hours refer to here 24 hours in the human world. Are they 24 hours somewhere else? Or is this the temporary arrival of 24 hours in a land of white silver? Land of white silver refers to the land of Samantabhadra Bodhisattva.

[57:22]

Anyway, somewhere else, other Buddha land. But wherever it is, the present moment is only present moment. And time is always alive. That is this moment. And whatever the case, whether it is our own world or another world, like a world of Amitabha Buddha or Samantabhadra Bodhisattva, it is non-dependent. Now, the totality of this universe does not depend on anything. In fact, this lies within the 24 hours and can be non-dependent. So, Dogen Zenji interprets Obaku's saying in a completely different way. No one besides Dogen could think into it.

[58:31]

It's really amazing. Elder monk, isn't that the attainment you yourself have achieved? This is an answer to the question to Obaku. Is the same as saying, isn't that the Buddha nature clearly seen? So this means, is this your view? Means, is this Buddha nature seeing the Buddha nature or not? Then, even though Nansen makes this utterance about it being Obaku's attainment, Obaku must not turn his head as if it referred to him. That means this elder monk does not necessarily mean Obaku as an individual person.

[59:33]

But elder monk is the same as Buddha or Buddha-nature, that entirety of reality itself. So this is the view or seeing of Buddha-nature. Although it may apply very well to Xuanzang or Obaku, it does not refer to Obaku. Obaku certainly is not necessarily only himself. Because a master is the same as an elder monk, way of attainment or view is utterly unrestricted and all-pervading. So this is the description of entirety of network of interdependent origination. And Huan Po said, no, not at all.

[60:41]

And Dogen explained what this means in Chinese language. In Song China, when a person is asked about some talent or ability he may possess, even if he wishes to acknowledge the ability, he answers, no, not at all. It's kind of a humble way of saying, yes, I am. And in Japanese, we have the similar expression. We say, douitashimashite, or something like that. Even when we do our best and people praise, we say, douitashimashite. Anyway, that's same idea. So that means, that's meaning of the word. And the person's mind, or what person is trying to say, are different.

[61:45]

So hence, the words, no, not at all, do not literally mean no, not at all. They are not to be taken at face value. As for the mode of understanding of a Zen master, even though he is a master, or even though he is a hyonpo or obaku, when he speaks, He has no choice but to say, no, not at all. That means Obaku, as an individual, is also Buddha nature, all-pervading. That means connected with everything. So no, not at all is kind of a humble thing of, yes, I am. But this no-not at all is also a saying or utterance of the Buddha-nature, although that was spoken through Obaku's mouth.

[63:02]

It was Buddha-nature express Buddha-nature itself. That's why Dogen said, when a water buffalo appears, it can only say, Wong, Wong. That means there is no way to say. Water buffalo can only say this thing. That means the Buddha nature can only say in this way. This kind of utterance is authentic. So this is buddhanature talking about buddhanature, or buddhanature expressing buddhanature. Try to utter the essential meaning of his utterance. Make an utterance on his utterance.

[64:03]

So he's asking us, to us, we should express the same thing as Obaku did, or as Nansen did. And Nansen said, forget for now about the cost of the food and drink. You've heard here who is going to pay for those straw sandals of yours. Dogen said, you should commit yourself for many lifetimes to probing the meaning of this utterance. And there are several different interpretation of this saying. I mean, in the comment of Dogen. But what Dogen said is, you should concentrate your mind and study deliberately why it is.

[65:08]

He does not concern himself with the cost of the food and drink. The reason he's so concerned about the straw sandals is because he assumes that in the years of pilgrimage, many pairs of them must have been worn out. Some people interpret the difference between the cost of food and drink and the cost of straw sandals. and they think cost of... Food and drink is enlightenment, and the cost of sandalwood is practice. So practice and enlightenment. So your attainment is okay, but to whom we should return the cost of practice? That means, you can, you, now you, you have this kind of clear thing because of your practice, but while you are practicing, you receive many help from all beings.

[66:17]

How will you return this? Another interpretation, I like that one better, is these two are not two separate things, like enlightenment and practice, but these two are both Buddha nature. You know, food and drink and straw sandal are all necessary things to practice. So both are practice, and practice and enlightenment are one thing. But someone, one side, we should concern, being concerned, that we have to think, and we have to deal, we have to control. And on another side, we cannot, we don't need to be, and we cannot be concerned, we cannot control. So even though, you know, this,

[67:18]

Food and drink and straw sandal are the same thing. Practice enlightenment. That is Buddha nature. But one side we have to be concerned. That means we need to think and we need to make distinction and discrimination. And another side we don't need to be care. That means we don't need to make any discrimination. One side we have to grasp, another side we have to open our hand. So grasping and ungrasping. These are two sides of practice of Buddha nature. I think that is, to me, how can I say? This is my discrimination. But I like this better. Anyway, Dogen continues.

[68:26]

Here, one must say, if I couldn't pay for the sandals, I wouldn't put them on to begin with. That means I will walk without sandals. Barefoot. That means there's no way we can repay the gratitude, the debt of gratitude. So, I have to practice with care. That can be one expression from this reality. That means we have to simply be gratitude to the offering from all beings within the network of interdependent origination.

[69:35]

If we need to pay, you know, from the beginning, we cannot put on the sundry. We cannot practice. We can practice because of the support of all beings. So there's no way we can repay. So the only thing we can be is be grateful. Again, one must say, or two or three pairs. Thank you. That means, you know, we don't need so many pairs of sandals for now. So day by day, or two or three, maybe one week, two weeks, three weeks, for a while, you know, we receive the Sangha and continue to practice.

[70:39]

Moment by moment, day after day, week after week, for a while we practice this way. And that's all we can say. It has to be utterances like those. It has to have that kind of essential significance. Then, with that, Shuampo, or Obaku, abandoned that conversation. That means he quit saying anything. And this means that He cut the conversation off, but it was not because he did not accept Nansen's response. I think this translation is not complete. But, Fat Dogen said Obaku stopped the conversation, but the reason why he stopped

[71:51]

talking is because he, what is, fukou, fukou is to affirm, so fukou is not affirmed, so dismissed. So, Obaku stopped talking, not because he was dismissed by Obaku, or by Nansen, or he dismissed what Nansen said. So, neither, neither. But, that means, that means, this stop talking is Obaku's expression of his gratitude, or understanding, or awakening.

[72:54]

Or within this silence, you know, both jo and e are included. Or thinking and not thinking is there. With priests of the true stamp, that could never occur. So this is not, you know, he didn't agree with Nansen, or Nansen didn't agree with him, so they stopped discussion. But you have to realize that the words in their silence, the words in their silence, are the same as a laser on a raft. Reiza on a laugh is another Zen expression from another koan. But this means, within silence, or within laughing or smiling, there is a sword to cut off delusion, or cut off that person's delusion.

[74:02]

So this sword is the sword of Monjushri. So, smiling or laughing or silence is not meaning lack of saying something. But, silence can be very precise expression of that reality itself. And, this silence is, it is the Buddha nature clearly seeing And rice gruel and rice in inexhaustible abundance. Rice gruel is kaiyu, or shuku, and rice is han, so shuku and han. And shuku han means breakfast and lunch. In Buddhist monasteries they only eat two meals.

[75:05]

Their monasteries in China only have two meals, breakfast and lunch. And breakfast is always, every day, rice gruel. In Japanese, mostly too. And lunch, we eat rice. So rice gruel and rice means breakfast and lunch. And this means we have enough food to survive day after day. That means, because of seeing Buddha nature clearly, Buddha nature, we can live, survive, be alive as a part of this network of interdependent ordination. And Dogen Zenji introduces another conversation between I-san and Gyo-san,

[76:08]

Isan is Obaku's dharma brother, and Gyo-san is Isan's dharmaya. They discuss about this conversation between Obaku and Nansen. And, let's see, a question is Isan brought this episode up with Yangshan, or Gyo-san, his disciple, he said, Nansen was too slippery for Huanpo or Obaku, wasn't he? That means Isan said Obaku didn't understand Nansen. Nansen, Obaku is not mature enough to understand Nansen's teaching. That is what Isan said about this conversation. But his disciple, Jōsan, or Yanshan, didn't agree with his teacher.

[77:20]

And he said, you must understand that Hyuanpo, or Obaku, has a capacity that subdues tigers. Tiger refer to mansen. So, instead, Obaku catch the tiger. Obaku catch or caught nansen. So, these two people's opinions are completely opposite. I-san said Obaku didn't understand nansen. But, Gyo-san said Obaku grasped or caught nansen. And Dogen Zenji disagrees both. It's not a matter of who wins and who loses.

[78:27]

That is Dogen's saying. But both together, the two of them together, express Buddha nature, clearly seeing the Buddha nature. That is what Dogen wants to say. Anyway, when Gyōsan said this, Isan, the teacher, said, So, Isan praised his disciples. Fat question what Isan means is, Shuampo, or Obaku, could not trap Nansen that time, could he? This is what Isan said in the conversation with Gyo-san. And Gyo-san said, Xuan-po has a capacity that subdues tigers. So, not its opposite, but Obaku subdues Nansen.

[79:38]

Then, Dogen presents his understanding. Once he, he means Obaku, once Obaku has caught one, that is caught Nansen, he scratched it behind the ears. You know, this it is Nansen was tiger. So when Obaku caught the tiger, just caught up is, just catch is not enough. But Dogen said it should be scratched behind the ears, meant to pet it. Do you understand? Not only catch it, but also, how can I say, take care of it. And Obaku did. That is what Dogen is saying. So not only catch the nonsense, but over-scratching the mountain too.

[80:43]

And catching a tiger, this seems like a poem, four-line poem. Catching a tiger, scratching it behind the ears. Catching means really catching or grasping. And scratching it behind the ears is to take care of it. So catching a tiger, scratching it behind the ears, going among different creatures. Going among different creatures is a translation of ii, rui, chu, gyo. And this is a kind of important expression in Zen. And there are two possible understandings of this expression. Ii, Rui, Shu, Gyo.

[81:53]

Ii is difference. Rui is like a kind or a category. kinds of categories. And this could also mean within the same things, within the same category. That means sameness. And Chū is in or within or middle. And Ryo is to go. One possible interpretation of this expression is going within different kinds. That means as a bodhisattva we need to go to anyone, any different kinds of people or creatures or living beings to

[83:02]

express the Dharma and try to help those people. That is one possible interpretation of this expression. And this catching the tiger and scratching it behind the ears is a method to go into that various different kind of living beings to help. And another is, Yi and Rui are two things. Yi is difference, and Rui is sameness. And Chu is middle. So we should go in the middle of difference and sameness. I think that is closer to what Phap Dogen is saying here. So, this translation, going among different creatures, might be not a right translation. So, and clearly seeing Buddha nature, opening the eye.

[84:13]

Opening the eye is wisdom to see the difference. And, Buddha nature clearly seeing, same thing, but opposite order. Losing the I. Losing the I is go beyond discrimination. So, opening the I is wisdom, and losing the I is samadhi. So, within the Buddha nature's, you know, seeing clearly the Buddha nature itself, or Buddha nature manifest itself, and within that movement, both Wisdom, that is opening the eye, and samadhi, that's closing the eye, thinking and not thinking, are included. So we have to open the eye, and yet we have to close the eyes at the same time.

[85:14]

And Hari quickly says something. So this is what Dogen said to us. Say something. on the basis of thinking and not thinking, or discrimination and not thinking, you have to say something. And this saying something is our practice based on this reality, and based on discrimination and non-discrimination, thinking and not thinking. What do you say? Buddha nature sees things with great mastery. He paraphrased what Isan said to his disciple Jōsan. So Buddha's... Buddha nature sees actually Buddha nature itself with great mastery.

[86:18]

Hence, for a thing or even half a thing, There is never depending. So there's no depending, actually. And yet, a hundred things, a thousand things, all are undependent. A hundred times, a thousand times, all are undependent. That is, this totality of interdependent origination does not depend on anything. It's there. That's all. In Tenzo Token, Fen Dogen describes how Tenzo calculates the number of people and how much food the vendor has to deliver to different

[87:23]

places in the monastery, he described half a grain, one grain, half a grain, and many grains. That means sometimes we have to cut off this one grain into half. That means one entire reality into half. This is discrimination, I think. And finally he said, that is why it is said, one universal wicca trap at all hours. Depending, non-depending. So we are depending and at the same time non-depending. Like vine on a tree. Vine on a tree. Vine and vine depend on the tree. But if we see vine and tree as one thing, it doesn't, you know, depend on anything.

[88:30]

They are being there together, that's all. Throughout heaven, over all heaven. After that, no words remain. After that, no words remain. So, any thinking, or discrimination or expression remains. That means we just, you know, as Katagiri Roshi said, shut your mouth and just see. Okay? Any questions? No question, good. So next we just sit. Thank you.

[89:27]

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