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2003.02.16-serial.00164

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SO-00164

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The talk focuses on the concepts of practice, awakening, and continuous engagement in Dogen Zenji's teachings, specifically addressing Menzan's interpretation of "Gyoji" (practice and maintenance). It explores the interplay between arousing the awakening mind and sustaining it, drawing from Buddhist scriptures such as the "Abhatamsaka Sutra" while emphasizing the non-duality of practice and enlightenment. The discourse delves into personal aspiration's role as an embodiment of the Dharma itself and illustrates how individual practice aligns with the broader Buddhist cosmology, centering on the idea of interconnectedness and the perpetual cycle of spiritual practice.

  • Dogen Zenji's Writings: The concepts of "Gyoji," as detailed in Dogen's "Shobo Genzo," underscore constant practice as cyclical and integral to enlightenment, reflecting on how personal journies mirror the broader transmission of the Dharma.

  • Abhatamsaka Sutra (Flower Ornament Sutra): References highlight the sutra's influence on the notion of the beginner's mind, illustrating the initial arousal of the body-mind and its inherent potential for enlightenment.

  • Eight Awakenings of Great Beings, Eight Points: These guidelines, derived from the Buddha's last discourse and further emphasized by Dogen, form core aspects of continuous practice, reflecting themes of desirelessness, serenity, effort, mindfulness, meditation, wisdom cultivation, and meaningful discussion.

  • Lotus Sutra and Huineng: The talk discusses a narrative involving Huineng’s teaching to emphasize the transformation from being turned by the Dharma to turning the Dharma, thereby integrating personal enlightenment within the collective Dharma practice.

  • Bodhidharma and Interdependent Origination: Bodhidharma’s journey signifies the great compassion and interconnectedness inherent in the Dharma, as supported by Dogen's views on practice and enlightenment as simultaneous and interdependent processes.

AI Suggested Title: Eternal Engagement in Buddhist Practice

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Transcript: 

Good morning, everyone. Yesterday afternoon, I talked on the capping word by Gil, and this morning, I talked on Menzan's summary on Gyoji and his praising the verse about this writing. Second page. Okay. In the summary, Menzan said gyo in gyo-ji means practice, as I said yesterday, and ji means to protect and to maintain.

[01:19]

Because we practice and maintain our arousing awakening mind, Dogen Zenji expressed our practice with the word Gyoji, arousing body-mind. practice, awakening, and nirvana are like a plant sprout in the spring, grows in the summer, being harvested in the fall, and being stored in the winter. If we lack of the growth in the summer, the other three stages cannot be complete. we should know that we cannot slacken our continuous practice. So he says, gyo is practice, and ji is protect and maintain.

[02:29]

And according to Dogen, in this gyo-ji, we practice and maintain the arousing awakening mind Allowing Awakening Mind is a translation of Hotsubodai Shin. What is to allow? Bodhi is transliteration of the Sanskrit word bodhi. And shin is chitta, or mind.

[03:34]

So, allowing bodhi chitta. And, you know, at the main office of this temple, there's a calligraphy that says, SHO HOSHINJI KAKU. This SHO means for the first time, beginning. So first, the calligraphy said that Ji is time. When we first arise the mind, this mind in this case is the abbreviation of body-mind. or awakening mind. Kaku is awakening. So when we first allow the body-mind, the enlightenment, awakening is already there.

[04:45]

This is a phrase from Abhatamsaka Sutra, or Flower Ornament Sutra. And, you know, Fensui Hiroshi talks about beginner's mind. That is this show and sin. We allow body-mind as a beginner. And within this beginning mind, or beginner's mind, I like beginning mind instead of beginner's mind. Because, you know, beginner in Japanese is show, person who has beginning mind is beginner anyway shoshin means beginning mind or beginner's mind a fresh mind we start something

[05:46]

And Menzan said, when we, you know, in Gyoji, we practice and maintain or protect this Hotsubodai Shin. Yesterday I said, you know, when I talked about giun's verse, progressing tongue, when we allow the body-mind and try to study and practice following teacher's instruction or studying Buddha's teaching from the Dealing Sutras or other scriptures. we allow the body-mind to go toward a kind of goal. That is, you know, allowing body-mind and practice. When we hear the teaching, hear and study the teaching, we think about it, whether it sounds, you know, okay or not, or it's suitable for this person or not.

[07:02]

So first we hear or study, and second, we think about it, and third, we put it into practice, if we think that sounds okay. And when we practice it, then from our experience of practice, we really find that teaching is true. That is what show means. Show in shu, show it in your practice and enlightenment are one. That show is this show. That means verification or kind of evidence that the teaching we hear or study is really true. So our practice is evidence or proof of whether the teaching is true or not.

[08:06]

That is the meaning of shu and shuo are one. Within shu there is already verification. But usually we think verification is after practice. But this separation of practice as a step and verification or enlightenment as the result, this separation is what Dogen didn't like. So within this practice, at this moment, Verification is already there if that practice is very genuine. Anyway, so from our personal, you know, searching of the way, or the path of practice, first we allow body-mind. And in Shobo Genzo Kotsubodai Shin, Kotsubodai Shin, Dogen Ren said, we allow body-mind with a disciplinary mind, jyotishin, thinking mind.

[09:19]

But he said, body-mind is not a thinking mind. But in order to allow the body-mind, we have to think. So each one of us has some reason or motivation to start to practice, or to start to search something, or to study Dharma, or any kind of spiritual teaching. So almost always we have some problem or difficulty or question. Then try to find the answer, we start with something. So the starting point, you know, our motivation is really half an hour. And we study and practice and we awake to the reality that Buddha taught or Dogen trying to teach us or your teacher try to show you.

[10:28]

And finally we find out that is really the way I want to go. Not want, but I need to settle down. That is a kind of a process of our practice. But as Gi-hun said, before this progressing, turning, or course is finished or done, that means at the same time, you know, the, how can I say, Buddha and ancestors, in the case of Jung's world, manifest their way, their aspiration, their practice, their awakening, their teaching through our day-to-day practice.

[11:31]

So our practice is our personal searching of the way and also going, practicing the way. But still, this is the process that our Buddhas and ancestors, or in other words, the Dharma, the Dharma manifests itself through our personal searching the way. This is what I said yesterday, but there is one more thing I think we should understand. That is, this personal awakening, or awakening the body-mind, personal aspiration, is already the function of Buddhas and ancestors, or the dharma. The dharma, when we have some problem, when we feel something unhealthy in our life, you know, the dharma or our life force knock the door.

[12:45]

And we feel some pain when we have some problem or difficulty or when we feel our way of life is not so healthy. Then we feel pain and we try to find some treatment. We think that is a personal thing. But that force or power, it allows us to feel pain. Or when we are sick, we feel sick. That feeling of pain, or awakening to the pain, or vulnerable to suffering, then we find we are suffering. This kind of suffering is a very, you know, starting point of healing. And that, you know, power which allows us to feel pain is already the power of Dharma.

[13:49]

So this hot, you know, first arousing body-mind is already the function of you know, perfect enlightenment for Buddha. The power, I don't know the good word, some energy or force or power, something, a life force, which allows the That's the function of dharma, in which we are living as a collection of causes and conditions. can call these conditions, as a collection of many elements, not in a healthy way, healthy condition, then we feel pain, or we feel sick, and we feel this is not good.

[14:58]

That feeling, I think, is the function of healthy power. That is what I'm saying. Does it make sense? And what I'm saying is that power, when things are not healthy, if you're pain or sad or something, I think that is a function of the Buddha's indictment. So Buddha's enlightenment, I mean, in coming to me, the Shakyamuni Buddha's experience, you know, under the Bodhi tree, you know, 25, 100 years ago. But Buddha awakened to the reality of all beings. So, especially in Mahayana Buddhism, Buddha's enlightenment or satori or awakening and the reality of all beings to fix Buddha's awakening are one thing.

[16:05]

Otherwise, you know, Buddha and the reality become two separate things. And Buddha is subject Dharma becomes an object. Mahayana Buddhism does this separation. So Buddha is already a part of Dharma. And so Dharma awakened to the Dharma. Or in another Dogen's expression, Buddha expressed Dharma through his teaching. But Dharma expressed Buddha as being Dharma. So Dharma and Buddha, or enlightenment, or wisdom and truth, or reality are one thing. That is basic teaching or idea of Mahayana Buddhism. So the power or energy which enables us to allow the body-mind through aspiration, through searching the true way of life, is already Buddha's power of enlightenment or dharma.

[17:22]

For example, in the Pure Land Buddhism, the founder of Japanese Pure Land Buddhism, whose name was Shingan, said, even our faith to Amitabha Buddha is a gift from Amitabha. It's not a matter of, I have a place to Amitabha, or Amitabha's vow. But this place, self is, it's from Amitabha. So there's nothing except Amitabha, Buddha's power of saving all beings. And Pat Dogen's talking here, I think, is the same thing. We are living within the Dharma world, and we are kind of, how can I say, we are born within this world of Dharma, this network of interdependent origination, and we are living actually a part of that network, but we don't know that.

[18:42]

So when we live without knowing that relationship, that interconnectedness, our life becomes painful. Our suffering. And we feel lonely. We feel, you know, separated from all others. then we feel, you know, it's not healthy. Then we have some connection or relationship, good healthy relationship, we feel good, we feel happy, we feel, you know, healthy. So I think that is the power of dharma. In another sense, yesterday morning I talked about bodhidharma coming from the West, and Dogen Zenji's great compassion. This was done. Bodhidharma came from the West to the East through such a difficult journey.

[19:50]

And that trip was done because of the great compassion. This great compassion is not his personal compassion, but when he said great compassion, great means absolute. Absolute compassion means the entire network of interdependent origination is Buddha's compassion. And we are living within that network. We are living within Buddha's great compassion. But we don't see it. We don't really know that until we study and awake to that reality. Okay, please. I think so. That's the beginning of our, you know, searching the way.

[20:57]

And, you know, in a sense, as I said yesterday, our practice is kind of treatment to be, you know, cured, healed, and become healthy. But as I said, that is not the end of our practice. But when we become healthy, we have to work as a healthy person. And that is the same kind of practice. I think that is what men are saying. And don't get too interested in Shobo Gendo Gyoji. Keep practicing. Whether we are sick or when we are searching the way and or after we found a way, we need to do the same practice. In Zen terms, this is called Bandi Ichijo text. Bandi Ichijo means 10,000 miles, only one piece of iron. There are no two separate paths between before and after.

[22:06]

attaining the way or after attaining the way. So this is one ongoing process from allowing body-mind to enter nirvana. So I think what I said was Even personal, you know, awakening body-mind who are finding the motivation to take the way is already the function of Buddha. So there are kind of three directions. And in Shobo Genzo Hokketen Hokke, Hokketen hokke. Hokke means, is a Japanese word for lotus flower. And lotus, yeah.

[23:08]

Or the name of the lotus sutra. In the Lotus Hokketen Hokke, Dogen quotes a story about the sixth ancestor Huinan, or Eno, and one of his disciples. The disciple chanted the Lotus Sutra. Dharma Flower Sutra, Southern Dog Time. But he said, I don't quite understand what it means. So he asked Hainan to teach the essence of the meaning of this Lotus Sutra. And Hainan said, if you are mind or heart is deluded, you are turned by the dharma flower or lotus flower.

[24:16]

When your mind is enlightened, you turn the dharma flower. When we are deluded, we are turned by Dharma flower. And when we are enlightened, we turn to Dharma flower. So I think that we are turned by Dharma flower means we practice because of the Dharma flower, seeking the Dharma flower. We are turned by Dharma flower. In that sense, our Personal searching of the way is still in... I don't like the word, English word, delusion for this word, maze. You know, yesterday I said Bodhidharma came from the West to save deluded beings, or deluded-centered beings.

[25:28]

That deluded is this may. And when Shungan said, when we are deluded, we are turned by the Dharma flower. Same word, may. And we usually translate this as deluded, but it's not really deluded. The Chinese character is like this, and it has two parts, one this part and this part. And this part is the same as 道, or 位. And this part is the same. And in the case of way or door or tower, this part means head or head.

[26:39]

And this part means action of our legs to walk. So way means to walk with certain direction. We can walk to the direction our head is facing. So we know where we want to go, and our head is facing that direction, and we use our legs to walk and get to that place. And that process is the way. But in this case, this may makes the sound. May came from this way. character means rice, kome. Rice, kome.

[27:40]

The pronunciation in Japanese is Mei. So this part makes the sound of the kanji. Mei, Mei-jo. And Yet, I think the shape of this kanji is interesting. This is not true, this is just my association, but this is an interception. When we are starting interception, and when we don't know where we go, We cannot take any step further. We cannot make any choice. If we know where we are, then we are in the way. But when we don't know where we want to go, picking the direction we should go, then we're stuck there. We don't know where to go. And that may mean grief.

[28:44]

like going nowhere without a direction. So may means we are lost. We have no clear direction. That is this may. So when Bodhidharma came from the West to say this may sentient being does not simply mean deluded. But people, you know, because of sometimes because of too much knowledge, too much idea, you know, we don't know where to go, which way we should, you know, is the best choice. So it's not really deluded. And of course sometimes we are completely deluded. but not only deluded, but too much knowledge, too much clear thinking. Sometimes we lose our way. So I think Bodhidharma came to save those sentient beings.

[29:52]

That means Bodhidharma tried to show the fundamental basic direction of our life. So when we try to find our way, search the way, we are still in dismay. We don't know if it is really in the right direction, but somehow we try. So in that story, this is kind of when we are deluded We are turned by the dharma flower. But we are turned by the dharma flower. I don't think that's a right translation.

[30:59]

No, I don't think so. We are all emotional. And I think even Buddha has emotion. Anyway, and go. When our mind, Huinan said, when our mind is enlightened, we turn to Dharma. That is, you know, Buddha turn to Dharma, Buddha show to Dharma, Buddha teach Dharma. That is when our mind is enlightened, means we really see the oneness of all beings. Then we can turn the lotus flower or dharma flower. Not what Huinan said in the conversation with his disciples, but Dogen added one more thing, one more point. That is the title of the chapter of Shobogenzo, Tenhokke, that means Dharma flowers and Dharma flowers.

[32:11]

There is nothing here. Dharma flowers are turned into Dharma flowers. There is no me who is turned into a Dharma flower. And there is no teacher or Buddha who turns into a Dharma flower. Dharma flower and Dharma flower itself. That is the great process of our sattva or practice. Allowing body and mind to practice, awakening and entering nirvana. this is from this side you know we are trying to best way for me most suitable way of life for this person so we need to always make choice and as far as we have to make choice you know so often we go we are not really clear about the result, but somehow because of aspiration or vow, we take certain direction.

[33:24]

But that process of our practice is the way that Dharma power or the Buddha or Buddha ancestors, lead us, guide us to the Dharma. And within this process, according to Dogen's addition, there's no self, no Buddha, but only Dharma flowers and Dharma flowers. And I think the story I talked yesterday, Dogen also said, I think, said the same thing. he could come he body dharma could do such a difficult trip and practice because he said his self is the self of dharma transmission so he was really wholeheartedly entirely you know committed

[34:46]

this work or project to transmit Dharma to China. Then he really 100% commit to that project. Then his entire world become the world of that project that is transmitting the Dharma. So depending upon our motivation and our commitment and putting our entire energy to one thing, this entire universe, entire world, becomes the world of that project. Not only transmitting the Dharma, but when we play baseball, the entire world becomes the world of baseball. Or when we climb the mountain, and when we are really on the mountain walking step by step, then the entire world is a world of climbing mountains.

[35:55]

Or when we are really seeking, our entire Dazen, entire world becomes the world of Dazen. And later, Dogen said, I think, or he said, It was done because his entire world, entire ten-direction world, was the shinjitsu-do, true way, true and genuine way. So this world really entirely become true way. And Bodhidharma was really the self of entire ten-direction world. So here, you know, Bodhidharma's vow and commitment and activity, and the entire world becomes that activity.

[36:59]

So Bodhidharma, the person's way of life or action, and the entire world can echo each other, influence each other. And finally he said, this is done because entire ten-direction world is entire ten-direction world. Here, you know, the both dharma disappear. Only this entire ten-direction world, this network of interdependent ordination, that's there. That is only there. So both Buddhas, in this case Buddhas and us, our service, wayseekers, the person who is seeking the way, disappear, and only the way is going, or only the practice going on.

[38:03]

This is, I think, the same as what Dogen wrote about our Zazen in Jiju-Zanmai. We recited Jiju-Zanmai in the morning. or noon chant, said, when we sit even for a short time, you know, showing the Buddha mudra, that means sitting in a straight posture, and speak nothing, and keep our eyes open, and let go of everything. we show the Buddha mudra through our body, mind, and speech. At that time, this entire universe becomes the world of the Zen, or in Jujutsu Kaisen, the entire universe becomes enlightenment.

[39:08]

And this enlightenment of the entire universe influences the person's sitting. And this oneness of person, sitting, and entire world influenced all other beings in the entire world. And it keeps going. That's how the Dharma has been maintained and transmitted. So, you know, that is basic kind of idea of dogma about our practice. If we really, really, 100% focus on one thing, commit in one thing, this entire universe becomes the world of that one thing. That means there's no separation between the persons doing that. And this entire world, and this entire world supports this practice.

[40:13]

Kind of amazing, I think, idea or... not idea, I don't know what it means. I don't know the good word. But, you know, we, especially in modern society, we thought that we are individual. There are many other individuals and they are all independent of each other. My idea or my activity has nothing to do with other people. So it's kind of a complete between-public idea about the self and the society or the world or all other beings. If we don't see that difference, I think what Dogen is talking about here doesn't make any sense to us.

[41:23]

this oneness of self and the entire world, and all beings with the world. I think that is a very key point, and that is, how can I say, the point of our practice of the Zen, by sitting on the cushion at the Okay. We put the entire body, you know, oneness. But if we try to see that one, he, myself, and the oneness become two. So we cannot see.

[42:29]

When we see, we would, you know, when we try to explain, so I'm talking. So really, be there. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Anyway, I think that is the very basic point when we try to understand what Dogen wrote. So according to Menzen, this practice and maintain or protect is about our body-mind.

[43:33]

When we allow our personal body-mind, that mind is not so strong, not so steady. Sometimes it's just a curiosity, just interested in something called Zen or Buddhism. So it's not so deep and not so strong, but still we have to try to take care of it naturally. That is what I think Menzang trying to say here. And he said this maintain and protect, grow and practice this body dharma and body-mind. Body-mind is like growing grains or vegetables.

[44:41]

It says, allowing body-mind, practice, and awakening, and nirvana. This is a common expression of the process of Buddhist practice, allowing body-mind, and practice, and awakening to the reality that Buddha taught. and enter nirvana. That is like a plant. When we grow, for example, rice, first we plant a seed on the ground, rice paddy, in the spring. And in the summer, the plant grows. And when it ripens in the fall, we harvest the plant, the crop, and generation.

[45:58]

So from here, it seems Menzan has a kind of idea about this. In the very first sentence of Gyoji, Dogen talks about the cycle of the way. The cycle of the way. She says, In the great way of the Buddhas and ancestors, there is always unsurpassable continuous practice fitting the way as a circle without interruption. So this is the way. And Mendham thinks this circle of the way is like, you know, one person, for example, Shakyamuni Buddha, I have body, mind, practice, awakening, and nirvana. And the next spring, that means next generation, next person continues the same process.

[47:05]

next year. And this is how dharma has been transmitted from one person to another. So I'm going to talk about what this expression, the way it means, maybe this afternoon. But according to Mendham, this cycle of the way sounds like, or seems like, you know, the image of, you know, when we receive precepts, we receive the lineage paper, or ketchmyaku. Or when we receive Dharma transmission, we receive shisho, or the chart of transmission.

[48:10]

And, for example, in the Kichinyaku or lineage paper, usually there is a circle. on the top, and Shakyamuni. And from Shakyamuni, many generations of ancestors, and finally your teacher and yourself. And this line, this is a red line, this line go back to here. So this circle is the circle of the way. This is actually the network of interdependent origination, the reality of all beings. from the reality of all beings, which cannot be expressed in any word.

[49:18]

Or if we have to use some word, like the name of the Dharma Buddha translated, that is jiso muso, that genuine or true form is no form. There is no form. But from this no form, or emptiness, Buddha at the earth somehow. And this circle has been transmitted, you know, Buddha at our body-minds practice awakening and enter nirvana and that is transmitted to Mahakasyapa and he had his own awakening and body-minds practice awakening and nirvana and that is transmitted many generations until us.

[50:20]

And that is not the end of this stream. But this stream always goes back to the soul. That is, it seems, when I read this Menzang Tamari, it seems Menzang has an image of continuous practice in this way. That is the continuous practice from Buddha to all ancestors or all practitioners in each generation, and that goes back to Buddha. or the chart of Dharma transmission, Buddha is in the center, and Mahakasyapa is here, and each generation goes around here. And in the case of Dogen's shisho, Dogen is here, and this goes back to Buddha.

[51:25]

So the same idea. So everything comes from this circle and goes back to this circle. That is the idea. And so this entire plot is also a circle. and it seems mender, but using the process of growth of plants and continue to the next year, you understand this continuous practice in that way. And he said, if we lack of the growth in the summer, even though we allow the body-mind, if we don't have practice, there's no way we can harvest.

[52:34]

That means we can't awake to that reality. And there's no way to enter nirvana. So Mandarin saying this practice in the summer is most important. If we lack of the growth in the summer, the other three stages cannot be complete. We should know that we cannot slacken our continuous practice. That's why we have to practice wholeheartedly. And Menzan's verse is the eight awakenings of great beings. This is Hachidai Ningaku. Eight awakenings of great beings are the essence of continuous practice.

[53:36]

I don't know if essence is a good word or not. Another possible translation is general rules or fundamental principles or an outline of continuous practice. And I'll talk about the Eight Awakening of the Great Being after reading this poem. We divide them, those eight points, and use them according to the time and changes in each situation. Responding in an excellent way without fixed prescription or fixed method. This is, this means the continuous practice, Gyoji, is the regulation of ancestors.

[54:39]

I don't like the word regulation. Maybe standard or criterion might be better. although this is my translation. This is the regulation, a standard of ancestors in every generation and the constitution of all Buddhas. Here, the ancestor Eihei, that means Dogen Zenji, the ancestor Eihei's true faith, his essence, True faith is clearly exposed in this practice, continuous practice, and also in this writing about continuous practice. The essence of Dogen is clearly exposed, expressed. His descendants followed him for thousands of years.

[55:43]

You know, she died 750 years, 15 years ago, so it's not a thousand of years. So we are still in that area. That means we have to follow. If we want to be Dogen's children, that is fundamental sense. And within the flock of nine monkeys, the knower's head is long. I don't understand what this means. Maybe the flock of nine monkeys means many monkeys, and the knower's head is long means maybe if we follow Dogen's teaching and really continuously practice, we can be the leader of those monkeys. Maybe. Anyway, I talk about the Eight Awakenings of Great Dreams.

[56:56]

I think some of you already know, but those are explained or written in . That was Hachidai Nengaku was the final writing of Dogen. Dogen Benji died in 1253, in the fall, eighth month. But in the first month of the same year, he wrote this Hachidai Nengaku, Eight Awakenings of Great Beings. And this teaching about eight awakenings of great beings came from the sutra of Buddha's last discourse.

[57:58]

At the end of that sutra, Buddha said, this is right before Buddha's death, Buddha taught his students, his disciples, to follow, to practice those eight points. And I think Dogen was ready to die when he wrote and he thought this was his final teaching. And those eight points are, first is to have few desires. This is from Enlightenment Unfold, like Kazutanahashi. And the second is chi-soku, to know how much is enough. And the third is gyo-jakujyo, to enjoy serenity, quietness.

[58:59]

And the fourth is gon-shoujin, that is diligent effort. And fifth is humo nen, that is, not to neglect mindfulness. And sixth is shu zen jo, to practice meditation. And seventh is shu chie, to cultivate wisdom, prasina. And eighth, fukeron, is not to engage in hollow discussion, hollow or idle discussion, meaningless discussions. Those are the eight points. And before Buddha entered nirvana, he taught those eight points. It is the most important point of our practice. Eightfold correct path is what Shakyamuni Buddha taught in the very beginning when he started

[60:10]

started to teach, you know, eightfold correct path was taught. And finally, before his death, he taught these eight awakenings of great beings. And these are not so different. Actually, basically the same thing. you know, either is okay, or six parameters in Mahayana Buddhism are the same. Those are the point of our practice. As Buddha said, it's not a practice to make us enlightened person, but this is a practice of the middle way Buddha found. in his enlightenment. And he practiced after he became Buddha.

[61:12]

As I said yesterday, for Buddha, those practices are not a method to become Buddha. But he found those practices when he attained Buddhahood. And after that, you know, he practiced endlessly. I think that is Dogen's idea of practice. And the practice as a kind of a treatment to recover from sickness caused by three poisons mind is also the same thing. So same kind of a healthy way of life can be medicine. our nutrition, then we are sick. So whether we are sick or healthy, we practice the same thing. That is the middle path or middle way, you know, between self-endowment, the way we pursue fulfilling our desire.

[62:20]

And another extreme is, you know, ascetic practice to, how can I say, weaken our body to become free from desire. And Buddha practiced that kind of ascetic practice many years, and he found that it's meaningless. and he found the middle way. And that is whether, you know, eightfold correct path or eight awakenings of great beings or the six paramitas, whatever the practice, if that is Buddhist practice, that should be, is really the middle path between, you know, two extremes. I think it's time to stop talking and go back to sitting.

[63:23]

Any questions please? I'm sorry, could you say it again? Or you want to have other translations? Well, I can... Pardon me? Really?

[64:24]

OK. Just go and move. Okay, thank you very much.

[65:24]

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