everyone. Before I start to talk on the water, I'd like to introduce one section from Stannipatha. I think you know what Stannipatha is. Stannipatha is one of the oldest sutras in Buddhism, recorded in Pali. And I think what Buddha said in this sutra is something to do with what Dogen is saying, the phrase I talked this morning. It's a little long, but let me just read. Maybe you'll understand without any explanation. It's not a difficult sutra. But I think it's very important.

[01:04]

And Buddhist scholars think this section of sthanipārtha is important to see, to know the older form of Buddha's teaching of interdependent origination. In the case of early Buddhism, interdependent origination is not a correct expression. It's a dependent origination. or dependent arising. It's not interdependent. The idea of interdependent origination is from Nagarjuna in the Mahayana Buddhism. Number 11, Kalahabirvadasutta. The number is 862 to 877. The title of this sutra in English is, Disputes and Contention.

[02:13]

Disputes and Contention. And in the parenthesis it said, The Causes of Anger and Attachment. It said, Sir said a questioner. So this is a question from someone. Whenever there are arguments, and quarrels. There are tears and anguish, arrogance and pride, and grudges and insults to go with them. Can you explain how these things come about? Where do they all come from? So Buddha, this person is asking, what is the cause of this you know, human problems, not only 2,500 years ago, but we still have the same thing. And Buddha said, the tears and anguish that follow arguments and quarrels, said the Buddha, the arrogance and pride and the grudges and insult that go with them are

[03:31]

all the result of one thing. They come from having preferences, from holding things precious and dear. Insults are born out of arguments, and grudges are inseparable from quarrels. But why, sir, this is a person who questions, but why, sir, do we have these preferences? Why do we have these preferences? These special things, why do we have so much greed and all the aspirations and achievements that we base our lives on? Where do we get them from? I think this is a very important question for us, too.

[04:33]

The preferences, the precious things, said the Buddha, come from the impulse of desire, impulse of desire. So too does the greed and so too do the aspirations and achievements that make up people's lives. So our lives came from impulse of desires. And from where, sir, comes this impulse of desire? From where do we derive our theories and opinions, our philosophy, and thought about all the other things that you, the wanderer, have named, such as anger, dishonesty, and confusion? The impulse of desire arises when people think of one thing as present and another as unpleasant.

[05:44]

That is the source of desire. It is when people see that material things are subject both to becoming and disintegration. arising and perishing, that they form their theories about the world. So we create our picture of the world, our philosophy based on our like and dislike. Anger, confusion, and dishonesty arise when things are set in pairs as opposite. to pierce dichotomies. The person with perplexity must train himself in the path of knowledge. The recluse has declared the truth after realization.

[06:50]

Another quick question again. But why, sir, is it that we find some things present and some unpleasant? What could we do to stop that? How can we stop it? And this idea of becoming and disintegration, could you explain where that comes from? Buddha's answer. It is the action of contact, action of contact, contact between sense organs and their object. Contact. It is the action of contact, of mental impression, that leads to the feelings of present and unpleasant. We have present and unpleasant because of the contact. between sense organs and the object of sense organs.

[07:57]

Without the contact, they would not exist, of course. And as I see it, the idea of becoming and this disintegration also comes from this source, from the action of contact. Again, question, so far, sir, does this contact come from? And the grasping habit, what's the reason for that? Why we grasp things? Is there anything that can be done to get rid of possessiveness and anything that could be eliminated? so that there would be no more contact. How we can avoid contact? It's a very good question, I think. And this is something about what Dogen is discussing here, I think.

[09:08]

Not Dogen, but Buddha says... Contact exists because the compound of mind and matter exists. compound of mind and matters. Compound of, you know, our self and all other beings. And that is a fat dogma called the Mountain. Excuse me. So, is our mind and matter compounded together in the same compound? Or are mind and matter separate? I'm not sure. Let me read further. So contact exists because the compound of mind and matter exists. The habit of grasping is based on wanting things. Desire. If there were no wanting, if there's no desire, there would be no possessiveness.

[10:11]

It's very logical, I think. Similarly, without the element of form of matter, there would be no contact. So, if neither desire or form or object doesn't exist, there's no contact. I think it's very logical, very understandable thing. No contact. What pursuit leads a person to get rid of form? And how can suffering and pleasure cease to exist? That is what I want to know about. I think we want to know too. And Buddha said, there is a state where form ceases to exist. Buddha said, there is a state where form ceases to exist, said the Buddha.

[11:18]

What kind of state is it? And he says, I think this is the most important point. He said, it is a state. It is a state without ordinary perception and without disordered perception. And without no perception. And without any annihilation of perception. So there's no... You understand? Annihilation of perception. So no... without ordinary perception. And without disordered or mistaken perception. And without no perception. Means there is perception. So, not to get rid of perception. So, without no perception, and without any annihilation of perception.

[12:23]

It is perception, consciousness, that is the source of all the basic obstacles. So, I think what Doigin is saying, you know, perception is a source of problem. But annihilation perception is another source of problem. So how can we free from this contact between a sense organ, or our mind, and the object of the mind? About this point, there are many different ideas and theories in Buddhism. from early Buddhism to Mahayana Buddhism and also in Zen. And one way or one idea is to negate the object and see only consciousness.

[13:29]

That is the teaching of Yogacara. Only consciousness. No form. No object. That is one way. Another way is to get rid of mind and only form. You understand? Only form or object. So get rid of our mind, our thought. That is another, I think, approach. Third is to go beyond this dichotomy of self and others, or sense organs and object. I think that is the third approach. How can we go beyond this contact that is a source of all the problems, please.

[14:31]

I know when you say, get rid of mind, in my understanding, Our mind is a creation. It's not getting rid of mind. It's not to create and recreate it. It's not going to the point where we create it, not get rid of anything. It's not to create. I'm sorry, I don't understand your point. No, it's coming to me that when you say get rid of, in my understanding, you sort of know, because you get rid of something. that is there, but most of our perception is not there. We create it. So it's not so much get rid of something that is there, but to stop creating that judgment, to stop creating. Not to create, leave it as it is. Do you see what I mean? Maybe so. That's my understanding.

[15:32]

That is coming to me when you say get rid of, because I think if you get rid of something, if you have this trouble, Or you have to stop creating. Maybe, you know, it's different. It's the same, but it's a different point of view, easier in my understanding. Could you say more? What's the difference? In getting rid of and creating. That when you talk about getting rid of, you have a very So it's a matter of different stage. Before creation and after creation. To get rid of what is already created. That is the meaning of get rid of.

[16:32]

I believe we are creating and recreating it constantly. So he's stopping before creating it. Not just taking it as religion. This is it, you know. Now we need to get rid of it. Can we stop creating it? I think that is what Buddha is saying. We stop creating our ego, how can I say, man-made picture of the world, our own, my own, how can I say, idea, based on the contact of present and unpleasant, and because of that, like and dislike. My point is when you say, get rid of, it's as if you have to make an effort, and then, it's something there, but, it's only, it's a get rid of, but I suppose, you know... Oh, you don't like the word, to get rid of, because we have to make effort.

[17:41]

I think we have to make effort. I think, I'm not sure about this, I'm not sure about the meaning of the English word. Please. When you were talking, I was thinking that the effort made is actually one of letting go, and that my understanding, like what you were talking about Zazen earlier, how there is no one to control what is arising, I'm sorry, I'm not sure.

[18:49]

Anyway, yes please. How can I fix? Okay, thank you. It is perception, consciousness that is the source of all the basic obstacles.

[20:10]

And one, two, three more sections. Let me read this. Another question. Sir, you have explained to us everything we have asked you about. There is one more question we'd like you to answer for us. Do you learned scholars of the world say that this is the highest purification of the individual being? Or do they say that there is some other kind of goal? Buddha says, There are scholars and authorities, replied the Buddha, who say that this is the highest and the purification of the individual. There are others who maintain that the highest purity is to be found in the complete eradication of the five components of the person.

[21:18]

That means the five skandhas. And there is also the Muni. Muni. What is Muni? The wise man. Muni, maybe. Yeah, Muni. It's not Muni. Yeah, Muni in Shakyamuni. I was surprised. He hasn't realized. He has realized which things are dependencies, and he knows that these are only clutches and props. And when he has realized this, he has become free. He does not enter into argument, and so does not enter the realm of endless becomings. What I wanted to say is, you know, these three approaches to kind of escape, not escape, avoid or go beyond the contact of self or sense organs and object or self and the world or media dharmas.

[22:47]

One is to kind of How can I say? Let's see. Seeing without thinking. Seeing things with no mind and analyze. seeing that everything is only the mind or consciousness. Consciousness only. So there is no object or a myriad of things. That is what the Yogacara taught. And I think third is, as I said, go beyond this dichotomy and embrace this as one thing. And I think that is what Nagarjuna tried to do.

[23:49]

You know, he always, you know, bring up two things, two sides, dichotomies. And this one pair negates each other. And he negates both by negating both. he shows something beyond this dichotomy. I think Dogen is doing the same. Please. This one? Sutta Nipata. Sutta. S-U-T-T-A. N-Y-P-A-T-A. Nipata. Sutta. Nipata. This is very important sutra in Pali canons. No. It's separate.

[24:53]

It's part of the 1, 2, 3, 4th Nikaya. Anyway, I'll go back to Gogen. Please. how this suttanipata concept relates to what you're... Yeah, I think it has... what Buddha said is stuttanipata has something to do... what Dogen said about beyond or middle path between thinking and no thinking. That is, without ordinary perception, without mistaken or disordered perception, and without no perception, and without annihilation of perceptions. That is, what I wanted to say was, that was what we're doing nowadays. You know, we have no ordinary perceptions by letting go.

[25:55]

So there's no disordered perceptions. At least we don't take action based on our disordered perceptions. And we don't negate or eliminate perceptions. So maybe third and fourth is the same thing. So we really just sit. Within this just sit, you know, we do what Buddha is saying. That is the state of being free from this contact. And being free from like and dislike. That means our preferences. So now we go back to the water. This discussion about water, Dogen's discussion about water, has also something to do with this, you know, going beyond dichotomies.

[27:02]

Paragraph, this is 17. Page 13, the first paragraph of Under the Dot, said, Water is neither strong nor weak, neither wet nor dry, neither moving nor still, neither cold nor hot, neither being nor non-being, neither delusion nor enlightenment. Frozen, it's harder than diamond. Who could break it? Melted, it is softer than milk. Who could break it? So Dogen is saying water is beyond these dichotomies.

[28:05]

So, Fat Dogen is discussing using this word, water is the reality of a life beyond not only these particular dichotomies, but dichotomies of everything. So, water has really no self-nature. It's changing in many ways. Sometimes it's wet, of course. But sometimes it's very dry. Snow in Minneapolis is very dry. No wet at all. It's like a flower. Right? Yes, it is. And neither moving nor still. Sometimes move, sometimes don't move. And neither cold nor hot.

[29:09]

Water is, you know, sometimes cold, sometimes hot. Neither being nor non-being. This means form and emptiness. No self-nature. There's no such thing actually called water. And neither delusion nor enlightenment, of course. And this is not only about the water, but about ourselves. We are beyond these dichotomies. And next, this being the case, we cannot doubt the many virtues realized by water. We should study the occasion when the water of the ten directions is seen in the ten directions. This is not a study only of the time, when humans or gods see water. There is a study of water seeing water.

[30:13]

Water practices and verifies water. Hence, there is a study of water telling of water. We must bring to realization the road on which the self encounters the self. We must move back, back and forth along and spring from the vital path on which the other studies and fully comprehends the other. So he is saying, water is beyond these dichotomies. So, also beyond the dichotomy of self and others, or self and all media dharmas, that's why water studied water.

[31:26]

I think including self and object, both. Actually, he is discussing about the self, which includes self and others. You know, one mind is all things, and all things is one mind. That is the self Dogen is discussing about. Please. I thought water could be everything. I mean, you could put everything in place of water. Oh yes. So this is about the reality of all beings, all existence. That is, you know, what is said in the Lotus Sutra. So, those, you know, wet or dry, or soft or hard, or being and non-being, or being still and moving, and enlightened and deluded,

[32:43]

according to Dogen, are virtues realized by water. So water has, you know, these virtues. You know, same virtue as the mountain had. And we should study the occasion when the water of the ten directions is seen in the ten directions. That means we usually see something from my point of view, from this side. Otherwise we cannot see. This is the source of dichotomy. source of separation between self and others. And among others, we separate something we want, something we don't want, something desirable, something not desirable, something valuable, and something not valuable. And we want to get this side, and we try to push this side away. That's the way we create samsara.

[33:48]

You know, we try to be on that side alone, and sometimes we are successful and we are happy, but more often we are not so successful, so we suffer. And we try to escape from something we don't want, or we don't like, or we think it's not valuable, so we try to escape. Even though we escape, they come somehow. So, our life becomes chasing after something and escaping from something. And this creates samsara. Please. Is this when you could see interdependent horizon at the moment? Like the ten directions seen from the ten directions? Yeah, that is what Dogen is saying. When we see with karmic consciousness, that means this person is subject and things are object, then here is a contact and here is a preference.

[35:02]

But when ten directions Water of ten directions is seeing in the ten directions means not from this person's particular position but this means I think there's no separation between seeing person who is seeing and water which is seeing. That means water is seeing the water. Basically the same thing. Yeah. Use the different word, but... Yeah, I think mountains and deep waters are the same thing. Please. I hope I'm not too far off. You know, you were talking about earlier, the eye cannot see itself. Yeah, so this is a contradiction.

[36:04]

Yes. [...] So I think what he is saying, when he said, water is seeing water, that means, to me, that means, let go of thought. Let go of thought. Opening the hand of thought. We, of course, we see things. only from my eye. And my eye cannot see my eye. So I cannot say self is seeing the self. But by letting go, you know, what I see doesn't, how can I say, doesn't form the view. It's just perception. It's also like Kojong saying, wherever I look, I see myself. That means the fact that we are seeing is myself. That kind of... that is a fact told with the word intimacy.

[37:09]

Intimacy means self and the object of the self are one thing. That means, so when we let go of our view, our perception, then the self and all beings are one thing, because actually, from the beginning, we are part of the universe. You know, only our perception or view or thinking, thought, arise from this contact or separation, and to separate things, contact, we create some view. And when we take action based on this view, then this person and all millions of things are separate. But when we let go, you know, actually we are part of the world. We are the part of the universe. We are just five scanners, same as all other things.

[38:14]

So we are really, actually, When we let go, we are really connected with all beings. That is what interdependent origination means. But we create separation. viewing things and forming things from this person's point of view. Anne, please. I'm thinking that, it's coming to me, that it's not even our own view, it's usually the view that our parents, our culture, you know, it's not, usually I think we tend to say, it's my view, so it's very personal. But I think when we look at it, it's not so personal, it's usually borrowed from parents, you know, But I think that's our view. Or a human view. Our convention in human society. That is a view.

[39:17]

From, not this person, but as a member of the human society. That is part of it, but that is not all we have. Buddha or Dogen doesn't necessarily speak about our personal view. you know, we have some particular personal view different from other rest of people, that is personal view, individual view, but also, you know, view as a human beings. You know, we think money is important in this society, that is a view within this society, that is a convention, that is a rule, it's not a reality, right? So that's not my view, but the view from human point of view, human position. So that is, you know, same thing.

[40:21]

To make the discussion simple, these are same thing. Let's see, here we are. So he's saying we should, not we, but we should study the occasion when the water of the ten directions is seen in the ten directions, not from our personal or human point of view. And this is not a study only of the time when humans or God see water. So there's no separation between human point of view or God point of view and the things viewed. Therefore, he said, there is a study of water. Water seeing water. So here is a paradox.

[41:22]

How water can see the water, as you said. And I think this means, maybe I said this morning, you know, we are part of the universe, right? And somehow we human beings start to think and start to view things, but still we are part of the universe. So, in a sense, you know, by... because... how can I say? Our viewing things and trying to understand things is, in a sense, the world. This universe is trying to understand the universe itself. So, do you understand what I mean? That is what I think Dogen is saying. Water sees the water. That means this universe sees the universe through human beings.

[42:24]

But from human point of view, I see things. I see the universe and we separate as subject and universe as object. But when we go beyond, our realities already go beyond this dichotomy. So that means water being water, and human beings being human beings, and this entire universe being entire universe, that is the way, you know, the world sees the world, water sees the water, and human beings see human beings. I think that's what he's saying. Water practices and verifies water. Hence, there is a study of water, telling of water. So, only water. No dichotomy between self and the water, or observer and the water as observed.

[43:35]

That's how practice Water practices and verifies the water. And the self practices and verifies the self. And the entire world practices and verifies water. I mean the world. And we must bring to realization the road on which the self encounters the self. We must move back and forth along and spring off from the vital path on which the other studies and fully comprehend the other. So here he is saying there is a way we can comprehend ourselves and others can comprehend others.

[44:38]

You know, by just sitting. You know, by letting go of any dichotomy or any thought. You know, the self is just being the self. And a frog is just being a frog. And a wind is just being the wind. Water is just being the water. And this universe is just being the universe. That is the way we go beyond. We go beyond even the Buddha. And this reality of going beyond is the Buddha way. Do you have something to say? That was Dogen's question. I think, when he was 15 years old, why we have to practice from teachers.

[45:48]

And in order to understand why we have to study the teacher, he tried to find a teacher. And I think this process of having a question and trying to find the answer is a process

[46:08]

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