Is someone going to introduce me to people? Or shall I just start? You can begin. This is Sho Hako. And he's been a part of it for quite a while now. He comes from Japan and has trained there for a long time and is going to be leaving the Bay Area in another year. So we're very grateful that he's able to come and teach us. Good morning, everyone. I have been living at the city center for about two years. And I work for Soto Zen Education Center, which is located at Sokoji in Japan town.

[01:02]

Okay, I'll try. So, every day I walk from Zen Center to Sokoji in the morning and evening. That is kind of my job. I mean, San Francisco Zen Center was originally kind of a shared place with Sokoji, when Suzuki Roshi lived. And I think for 10 years, you know, Zen Center and Sokoji is one place. But I think in 1969, Zen Center independent and moved to Page Street. And since then, Sokoji and Zen Center didn't really have a lot of interaction. And now my job is to be a bridge.

[02:06]

Not simply between Sokoji and city center, but between American Soto Zen and Japanese tradition of Soto Zen. So this is not simply my job. But I think this is my practice or my mission as a Soto Zen practitioner, born and educated and trained in Japan, and practice and study with American people. And I have been working on translation of Dogen Zenji's writing and my teacher, Uchiyama Kosho Roshi's writing on Zen. And I know that there are many things that are kind of missed or lost in the process of translation. So when you try to understand Dōgen only through translation, you may miss many things.

[03:15]

And I think what I can do, and what I'd like to do, is to fill that gap. So that is kind of, you know, walking back and forth between Zen Center and Sokoji. Anyway, that is my job. Even though I have been living there, at the city center, I'm not really a part of that community. I simply rent one room and go back to sleep. I didn't really sit with that sangha, and I feel very sorry about that. And next month, in March, I have a Sesshin at the city center named Genzo-e Sesshin. This is my first Sesshin at the San Francisco Zen Center.

[04:20]

So I'm really kind of excited. This is a kind of a special Sesshin. I mean, the name Genzo-e means gathering. And genzo, of course, means the abbreviation of shobo genzo. That is the most important writing of Dogen. But Dogen's writing, especially shobo genzo, is not easy to understand. Not only American people, but also Japanese people. even the priest. So, since the beginning of the 20th century, actually 1905, at Eheiji, the monastery founded by Dogen, almost 800 years ago, started to have a kind of a gathering to study Shogo Genzo.

[05:36]

and it's open for the public. So people from all over Japan come to Eheiji and focus on studying Shogo Genzo. And one teacher is invited to be a lecturer. and people could stay for one month. So this genzoe lasts for one month. And the teacher gives lectures on certain volumes of shobo genzoe every day, twice a day. And this session in March, we only have one week But I'm going to give two lectures a day. Two 19-minute lectures. Yeah.

[06:38]

It's kind of a challenge to me, whether I have so many things to talk in English. And I'm going to, or we are going to study on Shobo Genzo Sansui Kyo. using Karl Wilhelm's translation. Sanseikyo literally means the mountains and waters sutra. It's a very difficult thing to read. So I'm pretty sure I have, you know, things to talk about for 14 lectures. And so, I have been studying on San Sui Kyo as a preparation for that session.

[07:41]

And this morning, I'd like to talk on one expression from San Sui Kyo. And I'm pretty sure it's more than one hour to talk about that one expression. because almost all expressions Dogen used has a kind of a source in Buddhist sutras or the Zen literatures or not even, not Zen literatures, in Chinese or Japanese classics. And Dogen often used the expressions or phrases twisted I mean, different meanings. Sometimes he used the word in completely opposite way. So, in order to study Dogen, Dogen's writing, we have to study the source of the expression.

[08:44]

That means we have to study a lot. He is really an intellectual person and he was really well-educated. He almost knows all the Chinese classics as well as, of course, Buddhist sutras and Zen literatures. And the expression I'd like to talk about this morning is a person in the mountain. This is a very simple expression. A person in a mountain. And in order to talk on this short expression, a person in a mountain, you know, I have to study so many things. The sentence Dogen used this expression, a person in a mountain, is as follows.

[09:50]

Let's see. In the Sanseikyo he wrote as this. I mean, in the Sanseikyo he made a comment on expression by a Chinese Zen master whose name was Fuyō Dōkai. This Zen master said, The Blue Mountain Walk. The Blue Mountain Walk. Dōgen made a comment on this expression, what this means, Blue Mountain Walk. And he said, When I start to talk on this expression, I don't have time to talk on the person in the mountain. This is a kind of preview of my lectures at the session.

[10:53]

So if you want to listen, please come to the session. The expression he used, the sentence he used, this expression, a person in the mountain, is as follows. He said, The walking of the blue mountains is faster than swift as the wind. Those in the mountains, this is a person or people in the mountains, those in the mountains do not sense this, do not know it, to be in the mountains. is a flower opening within the world. And he also says, those outside the mountains do not sense this, do not know it. Those without eyes to see the mountains do not sense, do not know, do not see, do not hear the reason for this.

[12:05]

So actually he is saying, whether a person is in the mountain or outside of the mountain, they don't see, even though mountains are walking actually. This is what he is saying. And my question was, what this means to be in the mountains and to be outside of the mountains. And in order to what Dogen meant by to be in the mountains, I need to study poetry, poems by a well-known Chinese poet, whose name is So Shoku in Japanese pronunciation, and Su Shi in Chinese pronunciation. And this person, Tsurushi, was a very well-known poet. He lived in the, I think, 10th to 11th century, so about 200 years before Dogen.

[13:14]

And one of the volumes or chapters of Shobo Genzo, he quotes this person's poems. The name of the volume is Keisei Sanshoku. The sound of a ballet string and the color of the mountain. So this volume and mountain and river sutra are very closely connected. And Dogen quoted this Sushi's poem that says... I think this is a very well-known poem, so maybe some of them

[14:20]

Some of you may know that poem. Sushi's poem in Keisei Sanshoku is as follows. The murmuring brook is the Buddha's long, blonde tongue. and is not thus shapely mountain, the body of purity. Through the night, I listen to 80,000 gathas. Gathas means poems. When dawn breaks, how will I explain it to the others? This is a translation in this book, titled Mountain Rue Revisited by Bita Grant.

[15:27]

I don't know this person. Anyway, it seems this is a good book to study about Soushoku or Sushi. And the poem about the person in the mountain by this person, Sushi or Soushoku, is as follows. Let's see. Oh, here it is. This is another poem on Mount Rue. So she wrote the poem about the sound of valley streams at Mount Rue. And this poem is also written at Mountain Rue.

[16:29]

And I think Lev Anderson went to China two years ago. And he wrote about that, his trip, in our newsletter from Sotozen Education Center, Darumai. And in this article, Rev Anderson wrote, he visited a Tong or Dongling Monastery and Sealing Monastery. And this poem, the poem I'm going to talk, is written at Si-Rin Monastery. Si-Rin means West Forest Monastery. So maybe some of you have been there. And this poem is very well known, not only by Zen Buddhists, but the people who like Chinese poems. The poem is as follows. I think this is a really interesting poem.

[17:33]

He says, so this is about Mount Lu, a mountain. He says, regarded from one side an entire range, from another a single peak. far, near, high, low, all its parts different from the others. If the true face of Mount Lu cannot be known, it is because the one looking at it is standing in its midst. You know, this mountain, depending upon where the person is looking, the shape looks different.

[18:38]

Not only the entire mountain, but each part of the mountain looks different. So it's kind of difficult to tell what is the true shape of this Mount Rue. And the Sushi is saying the reason why we cannot see or he couldn't see the true face of Mount Lu is he is inside the mountain. He is in the mountain. So what he is saying is to see the real face, the true face of Mount Rue if the person is in the mountain. Do you understand what I mean? Here, Mount Rue means this world, or our life, because we are born in this world.

[19:45]

and we are part of not only this universe or world, but we are part of a society. We are born inside the world and we grow up inside the world. And we can see the world only from inside. That is the reason we cannot see the total reality of this world. In order to see the total reality of this world, we have to be outside of the world and we have to be kind of a subject and seeing this world as an object. Then we can see the total reality of this world. But when we are inside the world, we cannot see the total picture of this world. I can see only this angle.

[20:49]

I don't see the back of myself, behind me. So the existence, the being of this person itself, hinders, prevents us from seeing the entire reality. we can see the world only from my point of view, my position, my karmic tendency. Not only the position, but also, in my case, I was born in Japan and educated in Japan. So I have to use Japanese language to think. And Japanese language itself has a kind of tendency to see the world from a certain point of view.

[21:53]

So we cannot be really objective. And it's not possible to think without using language for us. So language is only kind of a tool to see, not to see, but to see and to interpret, to understand the world. And when we use language, we use, of course, the concept. And the concept of certain, in certain languages, of course, came from the actual experiences of the within that culture. So when I talk about, you know, mother, mother in English, the English word mother is to me only a translation or equivalent of Japanese expression, haha, or okasan.

[23:02]

And when I talk about mother in I'm actually talking about my mother. It's not the mother in general, because I don't know other mothers. My mother is the only mother I know, I experienced. So when even I'm talking on the general word, mother, in general, still my concept of mother is influenced by my personal expression with my own mother. So even when I'm talking about mother in English, I don't know, but I'm talking about the same thing with the mother you are thinking about. So, you know, that is the point of this poem. As far as we are living within the mountain, we cannot see the mountain.

[24:04]

So I think this poem has really a deep meaning. This is a translation within this book. But I have a question about this translation. This is what I can do. I have a question. Because I read the poem in Chinese. I don't really read Chinese, but in Japan we have a tradition to read Chinese poems as Japanese. So my understanding of this poem is Japanese way of reading Chinese poems. So, you don't need to trust what I'm saying.

[25:13]

And especially, I'm talking from Dogen's point of view. So, I'm not sure whether what I'm talking, my understanding is really correct, right understanding of what Sushi is really saying. So, my talk is really biased. And that is a condition of all human beings. So you don't need to trust me. And I don't trust myself either. Anyway, I have a question about this translation. This translation, the point, the lines, I have a question is, if the true face of Mount Tudu cannot be known, it is because the one looking at it is standing in its midst.

[26:17]

This translator translated this as an if-clause. If the true face of Man cannot be known, I think this means At this time, Tsushi didn't know, didn't see the true face of Mantru, but someone else could see. And that is a kind of a, not only this translator, but kind of a traditional understanding in Japan, I mean in the world of Japanese Zen. And this poem is considered the poem Sushi written before he attained enlightenment. And the poem about the sound of a ballet stream is the poem of exactly when he attained enlightenment.

[27:23]

And there is another poem, another very famous poem, I couldn't find that translation, but I made a temporal translation by myself. This is a translation I made yesterday, so this is not a good translation, I'm sure. said, drizzling rain on Mount Rue, same mountain, and the waves of Tsue River. This is the name of a river, which is also famous of the beauty of the scenery. Before visiting there, I felt discontented in many ways. Having visited there and returned,

[28:28]

There is nothing special. Drizzling rain in Mount Rue, the waves of Tsue River. This poem is written after Tsuo-shi attained enlightenment. So those three poems are written before enlightenment and at the exact time of enlightenment and after enlightenment. This is a kind of a traditional, conventional understanding of those three poems. So in the case of this translation, of the poem, he couldn't really see the true face of Mantru because he was not enlightened yet.

[29:30]

But that is not my understanding. And that is not, I think, Dogen's understanding. That is the point I'd like to talk. So I don't think this is an if clause. But no one could see the true face of Mount Voo, whether they are enlightened or not. So it's not only... It doesn't depend on the condition of the person or any time. Because as far as we are human beings, using our intellection, we cannot get outside of the mountains. we are always inside the mountain. So, this if doesn't make sense to me. And this understanding came from Wanshi.

[30:34]

Wanshi is a very well-known Chinese Soto Zen master. pronunciation of his name is Fonzi, Fonzi, I cannot pronounce, Fonzi Zhengjie. If you are interested in this Zen master, Taigen Ranleyton made translation of some discourses and poems by this Zen master. Because I cannot pronounce his name correctly, let me use Japanese pronunciation. His name is Wanshi Shougaku in Japanese. And this Zen master is well known also by his poetry. And Dogen Zenji pretty much respected this master, Wanshi Shogaku, and he often quotes Wanshi's discourses or poetry.

[31:46]

And actually I'm now working on translation of Eihei Koroku. Eihei Koroku is a collection of Dogen's formal discourse at the Dharma Hall, recorded by his disciples in Chinese. It has 10 volumes. And part of this record, Ehe Korok, is a collection of Dogen's poems on 90, not 100, but 90 koans. And one of it is about Wanshi's saying on this expression, a person in the mountains.

[32:48]

Even though I have been working on this translation of Ehe Korok with Taigen, but now we are working on the Volume 7, and this is in Volume 9, so I don't have the translation yet, but temporarily I translated it yesterday. Let's see, where is it? Yeah, it says, this is also a poem by Wanshi. It says, coming and going, coming and going, coming and going, the person in the mountain, the person in the mountain, Temporarily I put this person in the mountain as I. I don't like, I don't think it's he or one or she, so I put it I. So this, the person in the mountain means one she himself.

[34:04]

I know I know that the Blue Mountain is my body. The Blue Mountain is my body and my body is myself. Where is, where is it possible, where can I, where can I stick, literally stick or put on The sense organs and their object. Sense organ is the part of our body and mind. And their object, in this case, means the mountains, actually. The shape and color of the mountain. In Wanshi's poem, he is saying whether we see the true face of Mantru or not is not a problem.

[35:07]

It's not a matter. Because, anyway, it's not possible. But he said he knows that the mountain is his body. And his body is himself. important point in our practice according to Wanshi is not to see the true face of this entire world, but to see that this world and myself is one thing. We are the part of the mountain. That is the point. And Dogen wrote about this Wanshi's poem. And it's kind of a subtle thing whether Dogen is saying about Wanshi and what Wanshi really said is the same or different.

[36:09]

This is a kind of a point Japanese Soto scholars are discussing now. Traditionally, we thought Dogen and Wanshi are exactly the same. Dogen is kind of expressing the same thing Wanshi did in his own way. But recently, some Japanese soto scholars think what Dogen is saying and what Wanshi said is different. The difference is very subtle. So we have to really deeply understand these two persons, Wanshi and Dogen's sayings. And that is what I'm trying to do now. Anyway, Dogen's poem on Wanshi's poem is as follows. The person in the mountain must be a person who loves the mountain.

[37:16]

He said, the person in the mountain must be a person who loves the mountain. Going and coming. Going and coming. So a person is going and coming, that is moving within the mountain. And also, you know, mountain is coming and going. So both ourselves and mountains are going together. We and the society, we are the world, and the world is working together. And the mountain is my body. The mountain is my body. So this part is the same as one sea. The mountain, this world, is my body actually. And yet, Dogen says, my body is not myself.

[38:19]

Once she said, the blue mountain is my body, and my body is myself. But Dogen is saying, the mountain is my body, and my body is not myself. Is this different or same? This is a very interesting point. He said, where can I find a single sense organ and its object? So, in the case of Wansi, he said, the mountain is my body, and my body is myself. But Dogen said, the mountain is my body, but my body is not myself. Do you understand the difference? When we say, this body is myself, it's a kind of a problem. Is this body... Maybe in this case, body includes body and mind.

[39:30]

Five skandhas. Or six sense organs. Eye, ears, nose, tongue, body and mind. Are these five skandhas myself or not? I think this is a very important point of Buddhist teaching. Is there anything called myself besides five skandhas? Of course, as you are familiar in the part of the Heart Sutra, the Buddha said only five skandhas are there. and there's no such thing as self-nature. If we think our body and mind is myself, what is this myself? This is the point. This is a very subtle point. In the case of oneshi, this body and mind, five skandhas, and the world, or mountain, is one thing.

[40:38]

And this one thing is myself. That is what oneshi is saying. But what Dogen is saying is, these five skandhas, as my body and mind, and Mount Lu, or this world, is one thing. But there is no such thing called I, or myself. Only five skandhas. Do you understand the difference? And whether this is a kind of a question to ask, whether what Sushi originally said, and what Wanshi said in his poem, and whether what Dogen is saying is the same or not. And there's no answer. We have to find the answer by ourselves. What is the best way to express that reality

[41:47]

of Mount Rū and the Self. From, you know, Su-shi is from his point, and Wan-shi is from position, and Dōgen expresses from his position. And from our, each one of us has our own position. We are all in Mount Rū. But the position we are seeing from is different. So how do you express this reality? We cannot imitate Sushi, or Wanshi, or Dogen. How can we express this very good question? I'm not ready to express, but for myself.

[42:53]

So I just raise a question to you today. And I think I have to express my own, not idea, my own understanding of this strange reality that we are part of the world and we are inside of the world. How can we express this? And this is a very strange thing to see the world from inside and try to explain or express it using words. Words means using concept and logic. When we study logics, we study some paradox. One of them I studied when I was a high school student.

[43:54]

A person from Crete said, all Cretans were liars. Do you understand what I'm saying? One Greek person said, a person from Crete, the name of the island, Read. OK. In Japanese, kureta. Said, all people from that island are liars. If the person is from that island, whether this statement is true or not, if the person, if his statement is true, then his statement is not right. because there is at least one person who says it's true.

[44:57]

But if this statement is true, this person is also a liar. So this statement cannot be true. That means people from this island are not liars. So it doesn't make any sense. And the problem comes from this person is from that island. This person is one of the people. If a Japanese person said, people on that island are liars, there's no problem. Whether this is right or wrong. Because I'm not one of the people from that island. But in that case, I'm one part of it. I'm saying especially something negative. It doesn't make any sense. I think almost all the logic came from this situation, that we are part of this world.

[45:59]

So, in a sense, this is, how can I say, the situation or condition of all human beings. How can we express the reality of our life in which we are part of the entire world? And what I can say today is, this is a question. And I have no answer. Thank you very much for listening.

[46:35]

@Text_v004
@Score_JJ