most kind of important point of Genjō-kōan, at least to me. And Senrei and Kyōgo's commentary on this section is almost completely different from my understanding or what I studied or learned from my teacher. Section 4 is as follows. Conveying oneself toward all things to carry out practice verification is delusion. All things coming and carrying out practice verification through the self is realization.

[01:05]

I think, you know, from Section 4 to the section, I don't remember the number in this version, but when Dogen discussed about firewood and ash, Dogen discussed what is delusion, what is enlightenment, what is Buddha, what is living being, and what is life and what is death. So this is the first section he discussed about fati's delusion and fati's enlightenment. And I think these two sentences is Dogen's definition of fati's delusion and fati's enlightenment. I mean, I translate as verification here. Maybe I need to explain why I translate show in verification.

[02:09]

Sometimes it's realization. Realization or practice enlightenment. So I have to make it clear, I think. Well, pause. in English Satori, Japanese word Satori is I think translated in many English words and I think Enlightenment is the most popular one but in Chinese or Japanese at least three Chinese characters are read as Satori and those three are sho, go, and ka. And those three are all read in Japanese way as satori.

[03:20]

You count three together, or each of them? Each of them. But these have different connotations. or different usage, sho, go, and kaku. Sho literally means proof, proof or evidence or witness. And this is used in, how can I say, as a pair with a shoe. So Fendogen says practice indictment are one. This indictment is show, not wo or tak. So show is together. with shu or practice.

[04:25]

This means this is a satori as a result of practice. And this shu and shou, Dogen said in his teaching, shu and shou is same as one, one and three. But as common practice, With this term, shu and shou is a kind of abbreviation of a loaner expression. That is, mom, she, and shu, shou. Mom is to listen, or to hear. And she is to think. You know, when we hear someone's teaching, we have to think whether this teaching might be true or not.

[05:27]

And when we think, it might sound like we put the teaching into practice. And when you practice, through your experience, what you have, from the certain teacher is true. That is show. So, this show is evidence or proof or witness of whether the teaching is true or not. And Fendogen says show and show are one. That means when we practice, the evidence or proof of the authenticity of the teaching is there. We don't need to wait until we finish practice. Practice, the proof is practice itself. That is what Dogen want to say when he say, practice and show and show alone.

[06:31]

And in the case of Go, Go is a care which is made. May go is used as compound. May. And this may means being lost. Being lost. It's like, you know, this part sounds like a, it's not true, but like an intersection. And this part means walking. You know, when we are starting intersection and when we don't know where we are going, which way we should go, then we are lost and we can't move. That is, I think that is the meaning of May. And this May is often translated as delusion. But it's not really delusion.

[07:34]

We have many ideas, too many ideas, and we don't know which idea is the right idea. So we cannot move. We start on one place, and we cannot see which way, which is the right direction. And the goal is the position of that condition. We know where we are going. This part is mind, and this part is self. So when we see where we should go, we know which way we should choose. That is go. And that is also called satori. So in this case, play is the condition we don't have right understanding. So in this case, this satori can be something rational.

[08:38]

Something what? Rational. Rational thinking. Rational. Interactional. Interactional. Understanding. It can be a part of this satori or goal. And this kapu literally means to awake. And this is the position of sleep or dream. When we are sleeping, we don't see the reality. So we are living within dream. Some kind of illusion create, made up our own mind. But in this case, this kaku wakes up from our dream or from sleeping.

[09:43]

Then we can see the reality clear. That is a connotation of kaku. And so in this translation, I tried to translate this show as verification. And Hifendogen used this word, go, or satori, I translate realization. And Hifendogen used this kanji, I try to translate as awakened. But sometimes in certain contexts, this doesn't work. So sometimes when you read my translation, you may don't understand what it means.

[10:45]

But when you find the word verify, It's still a translation of this kanji. And realization is a translation of go. And awakening is a translation of kaku. And those all three can be read in satori in Japanese. And this can be alternative in kind of a not, how can I say, academic, scholastic writings or talking. Is proof then the opposite of show? No, show is proof. Not opposite, but it's together with show, practice. In the bottom characters, you've used the awake person, And knowing where we're going versus not knowing where we're going.

[11:55]

Yeah, that is the goal or realization. But in the first, they seem to complement each other. Is that true? Yes, this is not opposition. In this case, the show is a result of shoot in common usage. Whereas in the bottom, it's the opposite. Yeah, they are open. But if you're not a Zen student, you might think of them as opposite. But because we're Zen students, we don't think of them as opposite. Okay. Please. Just what's the word here for the dreaming? For this one? Yeah. But in Japanese? Well, would it be in... It's literal dream. And this is literal awake. Wake up in the morning. Right. Yes. That's why here I translate shusho as practice verification.

[13:03]

So I think the first sentence is Dogen's definition of delusion, or mayoi. Conveying oneself toward all things to carry out practice verification is delusion. So convey ourselves toward all beings and carry out practice enlightenment and show, he said, is delusion. And all things... 10 million dharmas, million things coming toward the self, toward us, and carry out practice enlightenment is enlightenment. Or carry out practice verification is realization. Question? Please. Is this meant to be taken literally?

[14:20]

I mean, nothing in these poems is kind of literal the way we would understand it in English. Can you say a little bit about what's the difference between conveying oneself toward things and things conveying themselves toward one? Or how was I able to rephrase that? Okay, so before I talk about the commentary by Kyogo and Senrei, I took my understanding. Excuse me. Dogen is discussing about Fatih's enlightenment and Fatih's delusion. Relationship means self and all values, self and all these. Is the microphone working? No.

[15:20]

It might be recording, but it's not. There it goes. There's a difference between comparing yourself and everything you can do. Just for a moment, just to clarify what he's saying. In the first sentence, he's saying that carry oneself. word things to carry out show who it is. You may. Not may. May. Not dream. Oh, it's confusion. Hmm? Confusion. Confusion. He paused at the intersection.

[16:22]

Having too many ideas is confusion. Yes. Not expressing the original. I mean, usually we think sort of and all beings. Self is subject and this self sees everything as object. And we try to see what is reality of all beings. And when we have right understanding, when we can see the true reality of all things, then we ourselves become enlightened. The reason why we cannot see the reality of all things is in our common understanding.

[17:24]

We are deluded. And in the case of dogma, the common understanding is something like we have Buddha nature. But our Buddha nature, in our case, the nature is hidden or covered with delusion or discriminating mind. Usual understanding of practice and enlightenment in Zen is first we have to find our Buddha nature, but that is still covered with rock or dust. So our practice is to take the dust away and polish the Buddha nature like a diamond. Then diamond, you know,

[18:26]

become their diamond. That is the, I think, common understanding of our practice. So we think there's a call to the nature and cause of delusion, somehow, inside of ourselves. And then we take this out, then we can see the reality of all beings. And that is so-called enlightenment. Dogen Zenji, I think, Dogen Zenji wants to say this way of seeing and practice enlightenment is delusion. I think, I'm not sure whether my thinking is valid or not, but this is my thinking. But in the case of Dogen, self is not a subject which is separate from object, but self is a part of all beings.

[19:41]

Self is not outside of all beings, but self is part of all beings. It's kind of one knot of interdependent origination. There are so many connections. And we are living as, as I said yesterday, we are living as an individual person, other beings. And yet, we are living only within the connection or relations with others. So this being is independent and also interdependent. And within interdependence, independence and independence are there. I agree. And that is the core. That is the reality, according to Novi. And then we see this as core reality of our life, including individuality and universality.

[20:57]

To see The relationship with self and all beings in this way and practice and carry out practice enlightenment is based on basic delusion which doesn't see the reality or based on this reality. So our practice and realization or verification should be It's verified by all beings. We have to practice as a part of the network of all interdependent origination. In that case, our practice is not done by this person. Our practice is not a personal, can I say, attempt to make this person an actor.

[22:03]

But when we practice, when we act, not only my personal desire, but also as a public person, as a part of intergovernmental nation, Our practice is not my personal practice, but this practice is done by all beings through this person. And according to Dogen, that is . So these two, I think, are different. That is my understanding of these two sentences. And I have been studying and practicing the Zen according to my teacher Uchiyama Roshi's teaching and his teacher Sawaki Kodo Roshi's teaching.

[23:13]

I think their teaching is a kind of different from what Senrei and Kyogo is saying here about these two sentences. I think that is, how can I say, kind of a uniqueness of Sawaki Roshi and Uchiyama Roshi. But anyway, I want to read Senrei and Kyogo's commentary on these two sentences. I think it's kind of different from what I said. Kyogo says, Dogen Zenjutsu says, conveying oneself. This self is the self of when all things are the Buddhadharma.

[24:18]

Caring the self and caring the Buddha is the same thing. Caring points to the reality of the whole ten direction world is the self. For now, it says to convey, to say convey, because the self completely penetrates the Dharma world. Also, living beings and the self, living beings and the self refer to the same thing. For now, temporarily, we should understand this self is the single self on the ground of all things are the Buddhadharma. Self, myriad things, and delusion are simply the same thing.

[25:23]

The practice verification is also different from our usual understanding. After all, the reality of the self is called practice verification. And he says, commonly speaking, it seems Dogen Zenji is saying that, here my translation, something is missing. I think that maybe type of mistake. I think this is what he's saying is conveying the self toward myriad dharma is delusion and that myriad things come toward the self and carry out black wave verification is realization. Such understanding is not right. I don't understand. I think this is what Dogen is saying. But Kyogo is saying this is not what Dogen is saying.

[26:28]

That is kind of a difference between my understanding and their understanding. And their understanding is the authority of mainstream Soto school. Is that still the case? It's changing. You know, everything is changing. Please. Also, I think the focus on this section agrees with what you said. As I said, not they said. It does not agree with Senate. It says... Within these two sentences, it says to carry the self forward and illuminate the dharmas. This is to look for the dharma outside of the mind.

[27:31]

Self stays on one side while the second mind went out in the area, down to somewhere else, saying you want to be enlightened, you want to be a scholar, and so forth. Saying the self is looking outside. This is the domain of delusion. Well, Kyoho is saying, you know, delusion and realization are the same thing. I think this can be said on the basis of the second sentence of Gencho Koan. There's no delusion and no enlightenment, or realization is the same thing. And the problem... in the commentary of Senne and Kyogo, is their understanding about the first three sentences. Those first three sentences are the same, can be interchangeable.

[28:34]

But I don't think so. You know, in the first sentence, Dogen said, there are delusion and realization, Buddhas and living beings, and life and death. And in the second sentence, he said, they are not those things. And yesterday I said, these are two sides of the Dharma, Buddha-Dharma. And the third sentence is, as I said yesterday, is about our actual practice. It's not about the Dharma or the way things are, but how we should practice based on these two sides of the Dharma. And when I was in Japan, I had an experience to give a series of lectures on Shobo Genzo to Christian group.

[29:41]

And first, because the order of the Shobo Genzo, first I talked on Genzo call. And next, I talked on the Maka Hanya Haramitsu. That is the second chapter of Shogu Genzo. This Maka Hanya Haramitsu, or Maha Prajnaparamita, is Dogen's comment on the Heart Sutra. Since they are Christians, they don't know about Buddha's teaching. So in order to talk on Dogen's comment on the Heart Sutra, I had to talk on the Heart Sutra. In order to talk on the Heart Sutra, I had to talk on the Buddha's teaching. And, for example, Buddha taught Four Noble Truths. suffering, the cause of suffering, cessation of suffering, and the path toward the cessation of suffering.

[30:51]

And in the Heart Sutra, there's no suffering, no cause of suffering, no cessation of suffering, and no path to the suffering. I think, you know, Fat Dogen Zenji try to say in the first sentence of Genjo Koan, it's what Buddha taught. There's delusion and enlightenment, or suffering and nirvana, samsara and nirvana, so we have to practice. And I don't think I need to explain what the Heart Sutra says to you here, because we are not Christians. I think you understand what the Heart Sutra means. But the Heart Sutra says there are no such things. I think that is what Dogen said in the second sentence. So I think first sentence is what Buddha taught. And second sentence, how Mahayana Buddhism expressed Buddha's teaching using kind of a negative expressions.

[32:04]

I think that to become free from even Buddha's teaching. So in that sense, I think those first three sentences is a kind of a summary of Dogen's understanding of entire Buddhism. And in Dogen's commentary on the Heart Sutra, Dogen again said those four noble truths, suffering, cause of suffering, session of suffering, and path towards session of suffering are four instances of prajna. So he again, you know, twisted not only the Four Noble Truths, but five scandals too. In the Maha Prajnaparamita, in Shobo Genzo, he said, five skandhas are five pieces of prajna.

[33:12]

Those five skandhas, all beings, are prajna, because those are impermanent, those are egoless, not substantial, and those are within the network of interdependent ordination. So each and everything express Buddha's teaching of impermanence, egolessness, and interdependent origination. That's why I think Dogen said, five skandhas and one of truth are prajna. And I think that is Dogen's approach. So Dogen said in the third sentence, again, there are practice and enlightenment, and delusion and realization, and Buddhas and living beings. I think he really saying there are in our practice.

[34:21]

Sometimes we are really deluded. And sometimes, you know, we practice really on the basis of, you know, impermanence and eagernessness. So actually, there is delusion and enlightenment. And there are actually Buddhas and living beings. So, and yet, in the first sentence, first section, he says, those delusion and realization beyond abundance and deficiency. That means those are not relative each other. When we are deluded, we are completely, 100% deluded. This delusion in our actual practice, actual life, is not relative with enlightenment or realization.

[35:24]

And when we try to act on the basis of emptiness or reality of life, we are 100% carried out enlightenment. It's not relative with delusion. So it's kind of depending on our attitude, moment by moment. So I think rest of the Shobo Genzo, I mean, Genjo Koan, he's talking about delusion and enlightenment and living beings and Buddhas and life and death on the basis or in terms of Buddha way as our actual practice life. if we understand Kenjokuwa in that way, I think here Dogen is saying there is delusion and enlightenment or realization is based on our attitudes toward all beings, whether we think we are outside of the all beings.

[36:48]

and try to see the reality of all beings and make this person become enlightened. If we practice in that way, that is really delusion. And when we practice based on the interconnectedness with all beings, that is enlightenment. Even if we do the same thing depending upon our attitude, it can be perfect enlightenment or realization or perfect delusion. It's really up to our attitude toward all beings. So Sawakiroshi was very strict about this point. If we practice Zazen in order to get something, That's delusion. You know, one of the most famous sayings of Saga Kiroshi is, gaining is delusion, losing is enlightenment.

[37:57]

So if we practice in order to get something or with expectation to attain something, that's delusion. And if we practice in order to help others, try to be helpful to all beings, that is losing. We don't get anything. And that is enlightenment. So this distinction, I think, is important. Otherwise, we lose the sight. What is the point of our practice? If we say, as Kyogo is saying, delusion and enlightenment are the same thing, then finally we have to practice. It becomes very vague when we read this kind of comment. It seems his comment is talking about something very absolute. But when we try to understand Buddha's teaching or Dogen's teaching in such an absolute or ultimate way, beyond our day-to-day activities, we lose sight of the point.

[39:17]

What am I doing? How should I practice on a day-to-day basis? And another thing, Senrei and Kyogo, at the end of this writing commentary, Gosho, they wrote a commentary on the Dogen Zenjutsu Kyoju Kaimu. Kyoju Kaimu is Dogen's comment on the precept we receive. I think we recite Kyōjika-en at Uppōsata twice a month. And that commentary is very kind of difficult to understand. In our formal ceremony, that's what we read at the end when we go through the precepts.

[40:21]

It's a version of that. It's what the priest says, right? No, well, the priest says it's right. Dogen's very short comments on each precept. Right. And Senyan Kyogo wrote commentary on those precepts. And their commentary are very kind of confusing or difficult to understand. So I think 17th or 18th century master whose name is Banjin Doton devised their commentary and entitled it as Zenkai Sho. And that is the basic text of Zenkai Sho. on precept we receive in our tradition. But I have a kind of a question about their understanding of precept.

[41:23]

Their understanding of precept is pretty much kind of, you know, precept as ultimate reality. And often, you know, Soto masters, teachers said, we cannot kill life. We cannot kill life. When we talk about the first principle, not killing, we said there's nothing, there's no one who can kill something, or nothing who can be killed. There's no such distinction, subject and object. This kind of understanding about precept, doesn't work as precept, I think. You mean to say that it's not possible to kill isn't helpful? Pardon? Are you saying that that understanding to say, in essence, it's not possible to kill because there's nothing to kill and nothing to be killed is not helpful as a precept understanding?

[42:30]

Yeah. Actually, we kill. And as a reality, we cannot live without killing. You know, even when we eat vegetables, we kill vegetables. And if we try not really completely not killing, you know, we have to die. And this is another killing, killing ourselves. And I think Fat Dogen is saying in Kyōjū Kaimon is different. He answered your question. He disagreed with what you said. He said he agreed, but... So I think it's important to see the distinction here between Fatih's delusion and Fatih's enlightenment according to Dogen's writings.

[43:38]

Well, in the next page, Kyogo says, conveying oneself toward all things to practice and verify all things is conveying oneself toward the self to practice and verify the self. You know, it sounds wonderful. The myriad things come toward the self to practice and verify the self is. The myriad things come toward myriad things to practice and realize the myriad things. So actually, they are saying there's no subject and object. No delusion and realization are the same things or one thing. And It sounds nice. But if we understand Dogen's teaching only in that basis, then we don't know what to do.

[44:46]

Why we have to practice? Why we have to go to Zenbo every morning? Why we try not to kill, not to be harmful to others? So we need to really understand why we try not to kill. Why would he write all that? Why would he write all of this if he only had this one? Yes. So why do we try not to kill? If we can't live without killing, but we have to not kill, what's the second question? I think in Kyōjū Kaimon, Dōgen said, what did he say? I don't know. By not killing, we nurture the life. So for him, not killing is not a... I need to explain a little more broader perspective.

[45:54]

In the Mahayana precept, the basic precept is written in the or the Sutra of Brahmanet written, I think it's made in China, written maybe, I don't know, maybe fifth century or so, so already 1500 years ago. Anyway, we received the 10 major precepts from the Bon Mokyo. And in the Bon Mokyo, there's an explanation about each precept, not key. And when we did the sutra, those precepts are kind of a social moral or ethics. And in Soto tradition, when we discuss about the precept, we often use Bodhidharma's one-mind precept.

[47:11]

And in this one-mind precept, it said, you know, there's nothing. When we have an idea that we can kill something, is violation of this precept. That means we cannot kill anything. Life cannot be killed. But what Dogen is saying in the Kyōjū Kaimon is kind of different, kind of a middle path between those two. One is, you know, the precept as a social morality or ethics is kind of a relative or conventional. And often we may judge people whether these people are good person or not good person, or even this person is good or not, based on whether we keep the precept or not.

[48:21]

And that is a kind of a limitation of the idea of precept as ethics. It's kind of a dualistic. But if we say there's nothing to be killed, or no one who can kill, it's another extreme. But what Dogen is saying in Kyojyukai is, as our practice, when we aspire to walk the Buddha way, in order to nurture the life, we try not to kill. So that is our vow, not social moral of course we have to respect the social moral and also we have to see the absolute reality there's no subject and object but still we are kind of a living intersection of these two sides so the meaning of precept the receiving precept in my understanding is take a bow

[49:43]

whether it's possible or not. We try to not kill. We try to avoid being harmful to all beings, even though we do something harmful, mistakenly or sometimes intentionally. But in that case, we have to make repentance. So taking vow and repentance is important point of bodhisattva practice. So we need to take a vow not killing, but still we can't live without killing. So we need to make repentance. I think that is my understanding of precepts and Dogen's teaching about precepts. And here is the same thing. The first sentence is a kind of If we mistakenly or carelessly understand the first sentence of Genjo Koan, we become dualistic, or our practice becomes dualistic.

[50:59]

Delusion is something we don't want. Enlightenment or nirvana is something we want. So we escape from delusion or samsara and try to get to nirvana or attain enlightenment. This becomes a kind of a dualistic practice. But when we carelessly understand the second sentence, everything is okay. Why do we need to practice? I think that was the original question of Dogen. If everything is reality, why do we have to practice? And what Dogen wants to say in Genjo Koan is a kind of middle path between those two, to be dualistic and to be really, how can I say, absolute or ultimate. In either side, we create problems.

[52:07]

Problems is not in Buddha's teaching, but problems is created by our kind of a selfish idea toward Buddha's teaching. Sometimes we want to get something we want. Sometimes we feel everything is okay. But Dogen is always trying to show the middle path between these two. And that middle path is what he is saying in the third sentence, as Buddha way. And after this section, section four, is how we practice with this attitude. So he always says there is delusion and there is realization. But later he said our realization is not graspable.

[53:16]

If we think we are okay, we are not okay. Anyway, that is my understanding of this section. Any questions, please? Just a comment. Thank you for bringing the discussion of precepts in, because it sounded like you explained the precepts. Dogen takes on the precepts of Gekko Koan, the precepts themselves. I think so. I think precepts in Dogen's teaching, those ten precepts, is an expression of koan. So when we receive precepts and try to practice precepts, we're trying to gain your koan, to study and practice gain your koan.

[54:18]

That is my understanding. Okay. Next section. We should take a break. Okay. Ten minutes. Let's make this really ten minutes. And also, if you have questions about the Genjo Koan, which you've been saving, Get them ready.

[54:50]

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