most kind of important point of Genjo Koan, at least to me. And Senrei and Kyogo's commentary on this section is almost completely different from my understanding or what I studied or learned from my teacher. Section 4 is as follows. Conveying oneself toward all things to carry out practice verification is delusion. All things coming and carrying out practice verification through the self is realization.

[01:05]

I think, you know, from section 4 to section... the section, I don't remember the number in this version, but when Dogen discussed about fire and ash, Dogen discussed what is delusion, what is enlightenment, what is Buddha, what is living beings, and what is life, and what is death. So this is the first section he discussed about Fatih's delusion and Fatih's enlightenment. And I think these two sentences is Dogen's definition of Fatih's delusion and Fatih's enlightenment. I mean, I translate as verification here. Maybe I need to explain why I translate, show verification.

[02:09]

Sometimes it's realization. Realization or practice of enlightenment. So I have to make it clear, I think. In English, Satori, Japanese word Satori is, I think, translated in many, several English words. and I think Enlightenment is the most popular one. But in Chinese or Japanese, at least three Chinese characters are read as Satori. And those three are Sho, And those three are all read in Japanese way as Satori.

[03:20]

You mean all three together or each of them? Each of them. But these have different connotations or different usage. Shō, go, and kaku. Shō literally means proof. proof or evidence or witness. And this is used in, how can I say, as a pair with a shoe. So Fendogen says, practice enlightenment alone. This enlightenment is shown. It's not go or tak. So shu and shou is together with shu or practice.

[04:25]

This means this is satori as a result of practice. And this shu and shou, Dogen said in his teaching, shu and shou is one and the same. As a common Buddhist term, shu and shou is a kind of abbreviation of a longer expression. That is, mon, shi, and shu, shou. Mon means to listen or to hear, and shi is to think. When we hear someone's teaching, we have to think whether this teaching might be true or not.

[05:27]

And when we think this might sound right, we put the teaching into practice. And when you practice through your experience, what you have, from a certain teacher is true. That is SHO. So this SHO is evidence or proof or witness of whether the teaching is true or not. And Feng Dogen says SHU and SHO are one. That means Feng will practice. The evidence or proof of the authenticity of that teaching is there. We don't need to wait until we finish practice. The proof is practice itself. That is what Dogen wanted to say when he said, practice and show alone.

[06:31]

And in the case of go, go is a pair with main. Main go is used as a compound. Mei. And this Mei means being lost. Being lost. It's like when, you know, this part sounds like a, it's not true, but like an interception. And this part is walking. You know, when we are starting intersection, and when we don't know where we are going, which way we should go, then we are lost and we can't move. That is, I think that is the meaning of mei. And this mei is often translated as delusion. But it's not really delusion.

[07:34]

We have many ideas, too many ideas, and we don't know which idea is the right idea. We can see which way, which is the right direction. And go is the opposition of that condition. We know where we are going. This part is mind, and this part is self. So when we see where we should go, we know which way we should choose. That is go. And that is also called satori. So in this case, mei is the condition we don't have right understanding. So in this case, this satori can mean something rational.

[08:38]

Something what? Rational? Rational mind thinking. Intellectual. Intellectual understanding. And this cartoon literally means to awake. And this is the opposition of sleep or dream. When we are sleeping, we don't see the reality. So we are living with a dream, some kind of illusion, created by our own mind. But in this case, this kaku wakes up from our dream, or from sleeping.

[09:43]

Then we can see the reality clearly. That is the connotation of kaku. And so, in this translation, I'm trying to translate this show as verification. And when Dogen used this word, go, or satori, I translate realization. And when Dogen used I try to translate as awakening. But sometimes, in certain contexts, this doesn't work. So sometimes, when you read my translation, you may not understand what it means, but when you find the word verify,

[10:49]

translation of this kanji, and realization in translation of go, and awakening in translation of kaku. And those all three can be read subtly in Japanese, and this can be alternative in kind of a, not, how can I say, academic. In the bottom characters you used the awake versus the sleep. And knowing where we're going versus not knowing where we're going.

[11:54]

Yeah, that is the goal of our realization. But in the first, they seem to complement each other. Is that true? Yes, this is not oppositional. In this case, this show is a result of shoot in common usage. Whereas in the bottom, it's the opposite. Right. Yeah, this is open. But in this case, these are not open. This is a core result. But you might think of them as opposite. Because for Zen students, they were not thinking of them as opposite. OK. Just what's the word here for the dreaming? Put it in Japanese. What would it be in? Y-U-M-E. And this is literal awake. That's why here I translate shusho as practice verification.

[13:03]

So I think the first sentence is Dogen's definition of delusion, or mayoi. Conveying oneself toward all things to carry out practice verification is delusion. So convey ourselves toward all beings and carry out practice enlightenment, shu and shou, he said, is delusion. And all things Ten myriad dharmas, myriad things, coming toward the Self, toward us, and carry out practice enlightenment, is enlightenment. Or, carry out practice verification, is realization. Please. Is this meant to be taken literally?

[14:20]

I mean, nothing? in these poems is kind of literal, the way we would understand it in English. Can you say a little bit about what's the difference between conveying oneself toward things and things conveying themselves toward one? Or how would you rephrase that? OK. So before I talk about the commentary by Kyogo and Senne, I talk my understanding. Excuse me. Dogen is discussing about fati's enlightenment and fati's delusion. Relationship is between self and all dharmas, self and all beings. Is the microphone working? No. It might be recording, but it's not.

[15:27]

There it goes. There's a difference between conveying yourself and everything you convey. Usually we think that's senbu. Excuse me, just for a moment, just to clarify what he's saying. In the first sentence, he's saying that carrying oneself. One of the things to carry out shoushu is yumei. Not yumei, but mei. Mei. Not dream. Oh, it's confusion. Confusion. Confusion. Having too many ideas is confusion. Yes. That is basic delusion.

[16:27]

And usually we think self and all beings. Self is subject and this self sees all beings. as objects. And we try to see what is the reality of all beings. And when we have a right understanding, when we can see the true reality of all beings, then this self becomes enlightened. The reason why we cannot see the reality of all beings is in our common understanding we have delusion, we are deluded. And in the case of dogma, the common understanding is something like we have Buddha nature, but our Buddha nature in our case

[17:46]

Buddha nature is hidden or covered with delusion or discriminating mind. So, usual understanding of practice and enlightenment in Zen is first we have to find our Buddha nature. But that is still covered with rock or dust. So our practice is to take the dust away and polish the Buddha nature like a diamond. Then the diamond becomes a real diamond. That is, I think, a common understanding of our practice. So we think there is a Buddha nature and the cause of delusion. somehow, inside of ourselves.

[18:46]

And when we take this out, then we can see the reality of all beings. And that is so-called enlightenment. But Dogen Zenji, I think Dogen Zenji wants to say this way of seeing and practicing enlightenment is delusion. I think I'm not sure whether my thinking is right or not, but this is my thinking. But in the case of Dogen, self is not a subject which is separate from object, but self is a part of all beings. Self is not outside of all beings, but Self is part of all beings, with kind of one knot of interdependent origination.

[19:57]

There are so many connections. And we are living, as I said yesterday about ko and an, we are living as an individual person, not other beings. And yet, we are living only within the connection or relation with others. So, this being is independent and also interdependent. And within interdependence, dependence and independence are there. I include it. And that is the core. That is the reality according to Robin. And then we see this as the core reality of our life, including individuality and universality.

[20:59]

To see the relationship with self and all beings in this way and carry out the practice of enlightenment is based on basic delusion. which doesn't see the reality, or based on this reality. So, our practice and realization or amplification should be verified by all means. We have to practice as a part of the network of all interdependent organizations. In that case, our practice is not done by this person. Our practice is not a personal attempt to make this person enlightened.

[22:02]

But when we practice, when we act not only my personal desire, but also as a public person as a part of interdependent ordination. Our practice is not my personal practice, but this practice is done by all beings through this person. And according to Dogen, that is enlightenment. So these two, I think, are different. That is my understanding of these two sentences. I have been studying and practicing Zazen according to my teacher Uchiyama Roshi's teaching and his teacher Sawate Kodo Roshi's teaching.

[23:13]

I think their teaching is kind of different from what Senrei and Kyogo are saying here about these two sentences. I think that is... How can I say? Kind of a uniqueness of Sagaki Roshi and Uchiyama Roshi. But anyway, I want to read Senrei and Kyogo's commentary on these two sentences. I think it's kind of different from what I said now. Kyogo says, Dogen Zenji says, conveying oneself. This self is the self of when all things are the Buddhadharma.

[24:18]

Carrying the self and carrying the Buddha is the same thing. Carrying points to the reality of the whole ten direction world is the self. For now, it says to convey, to say convey, because the self completely penetrates the Dharma world. Also, living beings and the self, living beings and the self refers to the same thing. For now, temporally, we should understand This self is the single self on the ground of all things other than the Dharma. Self, myriad things, and delusion are simply the same thing.

[25:22]

The practice verification is also different from our usual understanding. After all, the reality of the self is called practice verification. And he says, commonly speaking, it seems Dogen Zenji is saying that here my translation, something is missing. I think maybe type of mistake. I think this is what he's saying is, conveying the self toward myriad dharma is delusion and that Mediate things come toward the self and carry out practical verification is realization. Such understanding is not right. I don't understand. I think this is what Dogen is saying. But Kyobo is saying this is not what Dogen is saying.

[26:29]

That is kind of difference between my understanding their understanding. And their understanding is the authority of mainstream Soto school. Is that still the case? It's changing. Everything is changing. Please. of what you're saying. As I said, not that they said. It does not agree with what you're saying. It says, within these two sentences, it says, to carry the self forward and illuminate the dharmas, this is to look for the dharma outside of the mind.

[27:31]

The self stays on one side while you let your mind run about in the myriad dharmas somewhere else. saying, you want to be enlightened, you want to be a scholar, and so forth. Saying, the self is looking outside. This is the domain of delusion. Well, Kyogo is saying, you know, delusion and realization are the same thing. I think this can be said on the basis of the second sentence of Genjo Koan. There's no delusion and no enlightenment. Or realization is the same thing. And the problem in the commentary of Senne and Kyogo is their understanding about the first three sentences. They think those first three sentences are the same, can be interchangeable.

[28:34]

But I don't think so. You know, in the first sentence, Dogen said, there are delusion and realization, Buddhas and living beings, and life and death. And in the second sentence, he said, there aren't those things. And yesterday I said, these are two sides of the Dharma, Buddha Dharma. And the third sentence is, as I said yesterday, is about our actual practice. It's not about the Dharma or the way things are, but how we should practice based on these two sides of the Dharma. When I was in Japan, I had an experience to give a series of lectures on Shobo Genzo to a Christian group.

[29:41]

And first, because of the order of the Shobo Genzo, first I talked on Genjo Koa, and next I talked Makahanya Haramitsu. That is the second chapter of Shobo Genzo. This Makahanya Haramitsu or Mahaprajna Paramita is kind of Dogen's comment on the Heart Sutra. Since they are Christians, they don't know about Buddha's teaching. So in order to talk on Dogen's comment on the Heart Sutra, I had to talk on the Heart Sutra. And in order to talk on the Heart Sutra, I had to talk on the Buddha's teachings. And, for example, Buddha taught four Noble Truths. Suffering, the cause of suffering, cessation of suffering, and the path toward the cessation of suffering.

[30:51]

And in the Heart Sutra, it says there is no suffering, cause of suffering, no cessation of suffering, and no path to the suffering. I think, you know, Dogen Zenji tried to say in the first sentence of Genjo Koan, what Buddha taught. There is delusion and enlightenment, or suffering and nirvana, samsara and nirvana. So we have to practice. I don't think I need to explain what the Heart Sutra says to you here, because we are not Christians. I think you understand what the Heart Sutra means. But the Heart Sutra says there are no such things. I think that is what Dogen said in the second sentence. So I think the first sentence is what the Buddha taught, and the second sentence is how

[31:54]

Mahayana Buddhism expressed Buddha's teaching using a kind of negative expression. I think that is in order to become free from even Buddha's teaching. So, in a sense, I think those first three sentences are kind of a summary of Dogen's understanding of entire Buddhism. And in the In Dogen's commentary on the Heart Sutra, Dogen again said, those four noble truths, suffering, cause of suffering, cessation of suffering, and path towards cessation of suffering, are four instances of plasma. So he again, you know, twisted, not only the Four Noble Truths, but five skandhas too.

[33:01]

In the Mahaprajna Paramita, in Shogo Genzo, he said, five skandhas are five pieces of prajna. Those five skandhas with all beings are prajna. Because those are impermanent. Those are egoless. not substantial, and those are within the network of interdependent origination. So each and everything expresses Buddha's teaching of impermanence, egolessness, and interdependent origination. That's why, I think, Dogen said, five skandhas and one of the truths are prajna. I think that is Dogen's approach. So, when Dogen says in the third sentence, again, there are practice and enlightenment, I mean, delusion and realization, Buddhas and living beings, I think he really is saying there are, in our practice, sometimes we are really deluded.

[34:24]

And sometimes we practice really on the basis of impermanence and egolessness. So actually there is delusion and enlightenment. And there are actually Buddhas and living beings. And yet in the first sentence, first section he says, delusion and realization are beyond abundance and deficiency. That means those are not relative to each other. When we are deluded, we are completely, 100% deluded. This delusion in our actual practice, actual life, is not relative with enlightenment or realization. And when we try to act on the basis of emptiness or a reality of life, we are 100% carried out enlightenment.

[35:35]

It's not relative with delusion. So it's kind of depending on our attitude, moment by moment. So I think the rest of the Shobo Genzo, I mean Genjo Koan, he's talking about delusion and enlightenment, and living beings and Buddhas. And life and death, on the basis or in terms of Buddha way as our actual practice life, If we understand Genjoku-wa in that way, I think here Dogen is saying there is delusion and enlightenment, or realization, is based on our attitudes toward all beings.

[36:40]

Whether we think we are outside of all beings and try to see the reality of all beings and make this person become enlightened. If we practice in that way, that is really delusion. And when we practice based on the interconnectedness with all beings, that is enlightenment. Even if we do the same thing, depending upon our attitude, it can be perfect enlightenment or realization or perfect delusion. It's really up to our attitude toward all beings. So, Sawaki Roshi was very strict about this point. I mean, if we practice Zazen in order to get something,

[37:45]

That's delusion. One of the most famous sayings of Sadakiroshi is, gaining is delusion, losing is enlightenment. So if we practice in order to get something, or with expectation to attain something, that's delusion. And if we practice in order to help others, try to be helpful to all beings, that is losing. we don't get anything. And that is enlightenment. So, this distinction, I think, is important. Otherwise, you know, we lose the practical point of our practice. I mean, if we say, as Kyobo is saying, delusion and enlightenment are the same thing, then why do we have to practice? You know, it becomes very kind of a vague thing. We read this kind of comment

[38:47]

It seems his comment is talking about something very absolute. But when we try to understand Buddha's teaching or Dogen's teaching in such an absolute or ultimate way, beyond our day-to-day activities, we lose sight of the point. What am I doing? How should I practice on a day-to-day basis? And another thing. Senrei and Kyogo, at the end of this writing commentary, Gosho, they wrote commentary on the Dogen Zenjutsu Kyoju Kaimon.

[39:53]

Kyoju Kaimon is Dogen's comment on the precept we receive. I think we recite Kyoju Kaimon at the Fusatsu or Uposata twice a month. And that commentary is very kind of difficult to understand. Well, in our four-moon ceremony, that's what we read at the end when we go through the precepts. It's a version of that. It's what the priest says, right? No, well, the priest says them. That's right. Dogen's very short comment on each precept. Right. And Senryan Kyogo wrote commentary on those precepts. Their commentaries are very confusing or difficult to understand. So I think 17th or 18th century master whose name is Banjin Dōtan revised their commentary and entitled it as Zenkaishō.

[41:03]

And that is the basic text of on precepts we receive in our tradition. But I have a kind of a question about their understanding of precepts. Their understanding of precepts is pretty much kind of, you know, precepts as ultimate reality. Often, you know, Soto Master's teachers said, we cannot kill life. We cannot kill life. You know, when we talk about the first precept, not killing, you know, we said there's nothing, there's no one who can kill something or nothing who can be killed. There's no such distinction, subject and object. You know, this kind of understanding about precept

[42:10]

It doesn't work as a precept, I think. You mean to say that it's not possible to kill isn't helpful? Pardon? Are you saying that that understanding to say in essence it's not possible to kill because there's nothing to kill and nothing to be killed is not helpful as a precept understanding? Yeah. Actually we kill. And as a reality we cannot live without killing. When we eat vegetables, we kill vegetables. And beef, we try not... really, completely not killing. You know, we have to die. And this is another killing. Killing ourselves. Right? And I think Fat Doggy is saying in Kyoji Kayama's... He answered your question. She disagreed with what you said.

[43:14]

He said he agreed, but... So I think it's important to see the distinction here between Papi's delusion and Papi's enlightenment according to Dogen's writing. Well, in the next page, Kyobo says, Conveying oneself toward all things to practice and verify all things is conveying oneself toward the self to practice and verify the self. You know, it sounds wonderful. The myriad things come toward the self to practice and verify the self is the myriad things come toward myriad things. to practice and realize familiar things.

[44:18]

So actually, they are saying there is no subject and object. No delusion and realization are the same thing, all one. All one thing. It sounds nice. But if we understand Dogen's teaching only in that basis, then we don't know what to do. Why we have to practice? Why we have to go to zendo every morning? Why we try not to kill, not to be harmful to others? So we need to really understand why we try not to kill. Why would he write all that? Pardon? Why would he write all of this? So why do we try not to kill? If we can't live without killing, but we have to not kill, what does that look like?

[45:23]

I think in Kyoju Kaimon, Dogen said, what did he say? By not killing, we nurture the life. So, for him, Not killing is not... I need to explain a little more for the perspective. In the Mahayana precept, the basic precept is written in the Bonmo Kyo or the Sutra of Brahmananda. I think it's made in China. It's maybe, I don't know, maybe 5th century or so. Already 1,500 years ago.

[46:26]

Anyway, we received the 10 major precepts from the Bonmokyo. And in the Bonmokyo, there is an explanation about each precept. Not key. And when we read the sutra, those precepts are kind of a social moral or ethics. And then, in Soto tradition, when we discuss about the precepts, we often use Bodhidharma's One-Mind Precept. And in this one-mind precept, it says, you know, there's nothing... When we have an idea that we can kill something, it's a violation of this precept.

[47:29]

That means we cannot kill anything. Life cannot be killed. But Dogen is saying in the Kyoju Kaemon is kind of different, kind of a middle path between those two. One is, you know, precept as a social morality or ethics is kind of a relative or conventional. And often we may judge people whether these people are good person or not or not, based on whether we keep the precept or not. That is a kind of a limitation of the idea of precept as ethics.

[48:34]

It's kind of a dualistic. But if we say there's nothing to be killed or no one who can kill, it's another extreme. But what Dogen is saying in Kyojo Kaimen is, as our practice, when we aspire to walk the Buddha way, in order to nurture the life, we try not to kill. So that is our vow. Not a... social moral. Of course, we have to respect the social moral and also we have to see the absolute reality. There's no subject and object. But still, we are kind of a living intersection of these two sides. So, the meaning of precept, the receiving precept, in my understanding, is take a vow.

[49:43]

whether it's possible or not. We try to not kill. We try to avoid being harmful to all beings, even though we do something harmful, mistakenly or sometimes intentionally. In that case, we have to make repentance. So, taking vow and repentance is important point of bodhisattva practice. So we need to take a vow not killing, but still we can't live without killing. So, yeah, we need to make repentance. I think that is my understanding of precept and Dogen's teaching about precept. And here is the same thing. You know, the first sentence is a kind of, you know, If we mistakenly or carelessly understand the first sentence of Genjokohan, we become dualistic or our practice becomes dualistic.

[50:59]

Delusion is something we don't want. Enlightenment or nirvana is something we want. So we escape from delusion or samsara and try to get to nirvana or attain enlightenment. This becomes a kind of a dualistic practice. But when we carelessly understand the second sentence, everything is OK. Why do we need to practice? I think that was the original question of Dogen. If everything is reality, why do we have to practice? And what Dogen wants to say in Genjo Koan is a kind of middle path between those two, to be dualistic and to be really, how can I say, absolute or ultimate. In either side, we create problems.

[52:06]

Problems is not in Buddha's teaching, but problems is created by our kind of selfish idea toward Buddha's teaching. We want to be... sometimes we want to get something we want. Sometimes we feel, you know, everything is okay. But Dogen is, I think, Dogen is always trying to show the middle path between these two. And that middle path is what he's saying in the third sentence, as Buddha went. And after this section, section four, is how we practice with this attitude. So he always says, you know, there is delusion and there is realization. But later he said, our realization is not graspable.

[53:16]

If we think we are OK, we are not OK. Anyway, that is my understanding of this section. Any questions? Just a comment. Thank you for bringing the discussion of the precepts in, because it sounded like you explained the precepts. So, I think so. I think precepts in Dogen's teaching, those ten precepts, is an expression of koan. So, when we receive precepts and try to practice precepts, is trying to genjo koan, to study and practice

[54:17]

Genjo Koan. That is my understanding. Okay. Next section. Okay. Ten minutes. Let's make this really ten minutes. And also, if you have questions about the Genjo Koan, which you've been saving. Get them ready.

[54:50]

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