If there is something, a fixed thing called suffering or pain, and there is a fixed thing called desire or delusion, how can we become free from them? We can become free from them because they are empty. Suffering is not really suffering. And delusion or desire is not really delusion or delusion. Desire or delusion, because they are empty. Empty means they don't have self-nature. And nirvana has also no self-nature. It's empty. And practice also has no self-nature. But if we think there is suffering, there is a nirvana and there is a path to reach to nirvana.

[01:04]

You know, this kind of practice, you know, still based on separation or dualistic view. That means we are we are in this shore, and Nirvana is on the other shore, so we don't like this, so we want to be there. This is, again, very dualistic and based on our illusion. You understand? This kind of separation itself is delusion. And desire to become free from suffering is our own personal desire. And the goal or object of desire is different.

[02:08]

And yet, things happening inside of ourselves are the same. I feel something lacking, so I want to get there. I want to be free from desire or delusion, so I want to practice this in order to become free from that. That is the goal. So, actual motivation and things happening inside of our mind is the same. You know, I'm poor and I don't like to be poor, so I want to be rich. That is my goal, so I work hard. You know, same thing. That means we work hard in order to gain something. And we are living and practicing on that basis. There is no time we can become free from this desire, this motivation, this way.

[03:11]

I practice or I work hard to get this. That caused, you know, our practice of Buddha teaching, that makes our practice of Buddha teaching sansara. Still it's sansara. You know, when we reach it, we feel we reach that, we feel we attain that stage, we feel happy. And when we feel, you know, we cannot, then it does cause another kind of suffering, pain. And I think almost all of us, it's not possible to be Buddha. So somehow we have to think, we have to find a way, you know, even become free from this kind of motivation or desire.

[04:15]

That is what Mahayana Buddhists as a Bodhisattva try to find. And their answer, I think, is to live together with all beings and try to be helpful for all beings is more important than to eliminate our delusion or desire even though we have delusion, desire, and even though we still have egocentricity, if we practice on the basis of reality in which everything is together, everything is interconnected, that is interdependent origination, even though we don't eliminate our delusion or desire, This practice itself is a manifestation of actual or ultimate reality that we are living together with all beings.

[05:24]

So, as far as we are trying to eliminate our delusion and desire that is the cause of suffering, there is no way we can become free from suffering. But, as I said, Even though there are delusions, desires, selfishness, or whatever, when we live with our vow to follow Buddha's teaching, that is, you know, four bodhisattva vows, then we are not becoming Buddha. But our action, our practice, is based on Buddha's teaching of non-duality. and no fixed nature of suffering or sansara or delusion or this egocentric self.

[06:28]

That idea or attitude or practice is based on a deep understanding of emptiness. Emptiness means non-duality. There is non-duality even between samsara and nirvana, delusion and enlightenment, or living beings and Buddha. I think that is the Heart Sutra. And Mahayana Buddhists are saying samsara and nirvana are one, actually. So, to me, the first sentence is Buddha's teaching. There are four noble truths. There is suffering, cause of suffering, and nirvana, and the path to the nirvana. And the second sentence is the teaching of Mahayana Buddhism. There are no such things. They are one. No distinction between delusion and enlightenment. No separation between Buddhas and living beings, and life and death.

[07:39]

In the first sentence and the second sentence, too, it starts out, when all dharmas are Buddha dharma. Does that imply that sometimes dharmas are not Buddha dharma? No. This means always. There is no time all dharmas are not Buddha dharma. And there is no time all dharmas are fixed self. How come you didn't say, like, there is illusion and realization? Why does it even begin? Well, that's the way Dogen expressed it. I'm sorry. And you translated the Buddha dharma as Buddhist teaching. Pardon me? Buddha Dharma as Buddha's teaching. You said, I think, when you accept Buddha's teaching.

[08:44]

Yes, I think in this case. And also Buddha's teaching means, of course, you know, teaching about the reality. So Dharma also means reality or truth. Dharma as teaching is a kind of an expression of truth with using language. So, actually, both are the same. Okay. Do you have some questions? I think maybe you answered it, but it relates to the question of effort. It seems that some people actually can achieve this kind of understanding with almost no effort, or no effort at all. I mean, there are phenomenal pieces, and other people have to endure a tremendous amount of effort.

[09:50]

Yes. How do you explain that? I think that's why Dogen Zenji is writing this chapter. In this whole Genjo Koan, that is practice. You know, in these three sentences, there is practice only in the first sentence. In the second and third, there is no practice. And in the case of the second sentence, because there is no practice, no way to practice, but in the third sentence, I think, that is what I am going to say, to talk, the third sentence, this sentence is about practice. So, he doesn't need to say, put practice in there. That means, since the Buddha way, by nature, goes beyond the dichotomy of abundance and deficiency. So, the first sentence is about Buddha Dharma, or Buddha's teaching, or the truth taught by Buddha.

[10:51]

Those are, so, those two, first two sentences are about Dharma. And second sentence, I mean, third sentence is about Buddha way. Way is, you know, not a teaching, but way is practice. You know, we have to walk with our own legs. So, in the first two sentences, Dogen is talking about Dharma, Buddha's teaching, and the reality which is expressed, showed through Buddha's teachings. sentence is about our actual practice and actual our life. That is effort. We have to make effort. We have to use our body and mind. Please. So, when, to pick up on that one, when did you give? I mean, in English, when did you give? If, or we can say because.

[11:54]

Well, let's say, yes. OK. OK. But actual words, Dogen, you said, ji-setsu. Ji-setsu both means time. Time. Yeah. Let's say you take the position that all dharmas... Yes. So, all dharmas are buddha-dharmas. You take that position. You're there. Then, there is delusion. And, let's say, yes. You take the position that all dharmas are buddha-dharmas. Then, therefore, these things... The second one, he says, but if you take the position that the dharmas have no fixed self, then therefore there's none of these things, because they're all empty. So, I mean, one way of saying it is like, you can say, if you take the position, then this happens, and if you take the other position, then that happens. But then in the third, he says, Then we all agree, we must agree here that the Buddha way by nature goes beyond.

[13:05]

We agree with this somehow, right? Yes. So Buddha nature, I mean Buddha way is the way we have to walk. We have to actually live out. So it's not a matter of whether or not. But if we are actually practicing, When we really understand the Buddha's teaching and Mahayana teaching, you know, as Dogen kind of summarized in the first and second sentence, we have to practice. We have to live based on those dharma, or truth. And when we actually walk on that way, Because that way is beyond the dichotomy of abundance and deficiency. Abundance and deficiency is something positive and something negative. That means dichotomy of delusion, realization, life, death, Buddha, Buddhas and living beings.

[14:10]

Because the way is beyond those dichotomies, it's a kind of a twist here, a logical twist. There is arising and perishing, delusion and realization, living beings and Buddhas. I mean, that means if the way is beyond those dichotomies, we can say there is no That's a more natural logic, I think. There's no arising and perishing because it's beyond the dichotomy. But I think it's a really important point to understand this point. I mean, his logic is not usually a common logic. That means when we actually live based on Buddha's teaching and Mahayana teaching.

[15:17]

You know, there are arising and perishing, life and death, and there are delusion and realization, and living beings and Buddhas, and yet they are not dichotomous. When we have pain or we are in samsara, we are 100% samsara. There is no way to compare this condition to nirvana. When we are doing something, we are 100% there. What we are doing is not in dichotomy with something else. So, we are practicing Zazen. We are 100% practicing Zazen. This is not the path to become free from samsara or suffering.

[16:18]

This is not a step to reach nirvana. But when we are sitting, we are 100% there. When we are free from suffering, we are 100% free from suffering. There is no suffering in that state, or in that time, or condition. But when we do something selfish, we are 100% selfish. When we do something without selfish desire, we are 100% selfish, being free from selfish. I mean, Sākirō said, we have, all of us have Buddha nature. And yet, all of us have, you know, thief nature. Two. And, when we steal something, then our thief nature manifested, then that makes, you know, we are 100% a thief.

[17:21]

But then, we do something according to Buddha's teaching, This action is 100% Buddha Dharma. It's not a matter of whether we are a thief or a Buddha. Within practice, within Buddha way, if we think, put them in a kind of an objective way and put, you know, a thief and Buddha and thief nature and Buddha nature and action, you know, or make decision to, you know, which way we should go, you know, we are already outside of the way and watching the way. Like we are outside of the world and watching the world. That is the way we think using our words or language. But when we are actually, really doing something, we are inside of the world.

[18:23]

We are in the world. We cannot see from outside. But when we think using language, somehow we have to be objective. And we think to be objective is better than to be subjective. But the way we see our life, the way we live this life is beyond the dichotomy of subject and object. We are always within that, within this world. We are already living, we are already being born in this world and living in this world. We cannot see this world from the outside. But when we think using our language and logic, we try to keep outside and to be objective. It's important not to be subjective, but to be objective causes another problem. That means we become a kind of object.

[19:28]

And subject. Our life is separated into two parts. Subject and object. We are always trying to check what we are doing. Evaluate what we are doing. Whether we are good boy or bad boy. But when we are doing something good, we are 100% good boy. And when we are doing something bad, we are 100% bad boy. There is no way to judge it. That is the way we are actually living. You understand what I mean? It's like when we use language, we're always... Yeah, like seeing the world from outside of the world, become objective, like God is watching us. You understand? But when we are sitting, not only sitting, but for example, when we are sitting, there's no way we observe ourselves.

[20:35]

We are sitting. And all of us are sitting. All life of us are sitting. There's no way, you know, I can judge or evaluate whether my zazen is good or bad, whether I am free from desire or not. But when we are being pulled by our desire, we are 100% being pulled by desire. So there's no excuse. But when we are, you know, even a small thing, even when we do something, being free from desire, our egocentric desire, even a small thing, there is you know, that is where the lotus flower, you know, blooms. And even if a small thing we do based on our selfishness, you know, samsara arises.

[21:39]

So it's just a matter of moment by moment. We cannot see, you know, our life or this world objectively in our practice. And the ground on which Dogen is talking about Genjo-Koan is on the ground of practice, actual life, actual living. Unless we really clearly understand that point, Genjo-Koan doesn't make sense, I guess. There are so many contradictions, so many paradoxes. But if we read and think, we have to think. Think as a person who is really practicing, really being in the world. within this life, I think, you know, but Dogen Zenji's writing makes sense.

[22:44]

So, the rest of Genjo Koan, Dogen Zenji is, you know, discussing about practice. You know, only in the first sentence he used the word writing of Genjoko, and he's talking about practice. Well, it's time to stop. Yes. Well, I think I finish talking three sentences. And we have one more session in the afternoon, right? Can I continue? And since then, my body has been constantly changing. For a certain period of time, I began, you know, grow, that means became, you know, bigger and bigger.

[23:51]

And at a certain point, it stopped. And keep in the same shape, and gradually, you know, shrinking again. And sometimes disappear. That is the reality of our life. So it's always changing. And my mind is also changing. You know, what I thought in my 20s and what I think in my 40s are different. The way I think is also different. And something I liked 20 years ago is not something I like now. So, you know, our body is changing and our mind is changing. But still we feel or we think or we assume there's something which doesn't change as, you know, this person.

[24:55]

Buddha's teaching, egolessness. means there's no such thing which doesn't change. And the ego, or atman, as a Buddhist term, means, a definition of ego in Buddhism is something which is permanent, something which doesn't change, and something which is only one. And something, jo ichi shu, something owns this body and mind. and something which controls this body and mind. And, you know, even though our body and mind are changing, body and mind mean five skandhas. You know, first one, rupa, or form, is body, in the case of this person. And other four are mind. So five skandhas are always changing. But still we think something exists which doesn't change, and which is only one. and which is the owner of this body and mind, and which operates this body and mind.

[26:05]

And what Buddha taught by the expression egolessness, or anatoma, means there is no such thing. Only a condition of body and mind which is constantly changing. That is the meaning of no self-nature. So, there's no self-nature within ourselves. No self-nature with glass, or paper, or book, or floor, or this house. That's why it can be changed, depending upon cause and conditions. Is that enough? Please. So each second, the thing is unique. Yes. Unique and fresh. Unique and fresh.

[27:08]

Always new. And yet, and also, like, we relate to things as though they are consistent. Well, we are, you know, in causality. Cause and effect, cause and effect. So there is some continuation. You know. So we are like a waterfall. river or waterfall, you know, it's always changing, always flowing. So we cannot say, you know, this is a waterfall. We cannot take something and call this is a waterfall. When we take some water from a waterfall and show it, it's not a waterfall anymore. And yet we cannot say waterfall doesn't exist. It's really there. But we cannot say a waterfall does exist. as a certain fixed thing. You understand? Of course, of course. There's some, you know, continuation as cause and effect.

[28:14]

So we are responsible for what we did yesterday. And yet we cannot say this is the same person. This is why we cannot say we don't exist, and we cannot say we exist. It's really, you know, how can I say, our life is really paradoxical. There's no way to fix and define whether this exists or not, whether this, you know, is all the same or different, you know. So, emptiness is really empty also. If we think there's something called emptiness exists, that's a mistake. So somehow, nothing is fixed, and yet there's something we have to be responsible.

[29:16]

That's why Buddha's teaching, or this reality of life, is called Wanderer's Dharma. That means we can't grasp with our mind, using our language and concept, you know, when we use our concept or language, we have to follow the rules of logics. And I think the basic rules of logics are, you know, logics doesn't like contradiction. You know, A must be A. So if I hear it, you know, if I'm listening to you, and I can't get it with my mind, it's just, I mean, if I hear it, and I can't, I know what you said, I read it. And I don't... I can't grasp it logically. Yes, logic doesn't work. That is the meaning of emptiness. That is another meaning of emptiness. Logic doesn't work, you know.

[30:19]

For example, there are three basic rules of logic. A must be A. And A cannot be non-A. And there is nothing between A and non-A. Right? For example, a baby. A baby cannot be a boy. Right? Because baby and boy are different. And yet, how can we explain a baby becoming a boy? Nagarjuna is good at this kind of discussion. In order to explain that, or to understand that, something A becomes non-A. In reality, a baby becomes a boy or a girl, or even an aged person. We think to be a baby is one condition of something which is not a baby.

[31:27]

You know, I was a boy and I was a, you know, I was a baby, I was a boy, I was a teenager, I was a young man. All of them. That is a kind of something we create through our mind in order to make reality understandable. but as a reality, just a baby, as a condition. And nothing which is a baby as a temporal condition. That is the meaning of emptiness, I think, according to my understanding. I'm not sure whether it makes sense or not. And yet, you know, as a kind of a habit, We think there is something which doesn't change, called ego. And that is the owner of this body and mind.

[32:33]

Because of that, this is the most important thing. So, in order to, you know... So, we try to protect this ego and make it powerful and rich, famous. I think, ideally, we think this is the most important thing for me. And we try to live based on this idea of ego. This is the most important thing. And that becomes the basis of our life. And in order to protect this ego, we try to gain something we like, and we try to reject something we don't like. That makes our life egocentric.

[33:36]

And according to Buddha, that is the cause of suffering. And our practice as Buddhists is how we can see inside, we have the insight that there is no such one thing that doesn't change, that doesn't exist. But everything that exists is just a collection of cause and conditions. That's how everything is connected. by something else, actually everything else. So this person is connected with everything, all the causes and conditions. That means this person is really supported by all beings. That is the meaning of emptiness and interdependent origination. So we are really connected with everything.

[34:41]

That is, I think, that is a positive aspect of emptiness. And when we use the word emptiness, it's kind of a negative connotation. That is, such things like ego or self-nature, which we want to, doesn't exist. So we have to somehow negate those things. So if I'm 58, and I want next year to be better for me, I want next year better. Because I think I'm going to be the same person next year. So would the Buddhist way of looking at it be I can do something and those causes will make me better next year?

[35:44]

Sure. Or is that kind of a thing? No. Our life is a continuation of cause and effect, cause and effect. So, what we do now, you know, brings about what will be next year. Okay, because it'll be a cause, not so much because I'm... Yeah. You know, so there's some continuation, you know. Okay? Good. I have a question that's following that question. I think cause and effect makes sense, you know, if we still think that this is my life, you know, like separate from everybody else. You know, like then it's like, what I do will change this life, you know, because it's just mine. Actually my life is also everybody else's life. So even if I make decisions to do

[36:48]

something that's good for me, still, my life is also made up of everyone else's life, so my life is not guaranteed to be good, you know, like, just because I make the right decision. Well, cause and effect is not something private. Yeah. So, you know, for example... Or, for example, you know, when someone, you know, do exercise, like jogging, in order to be healthy, But because of running on the street, the person may have an accident, and they may die. So, cause and effect are not something... cause and effect are not connected as we expect. When you run by the sidewalk, there is a possibility you know, have a car accident.

[37:50]

And we cannot say there is no cause and effect. There is another cause and effect. So, cause and effect is not so simple. There are so many kinds of relationships, so many different relationships we cannot see. So, it's not so simple. If we do something good now, we may have a... we have good, you know, future or not. It's not certain. But if we don't do, you know, good things, it's certain that good things can happen. So, there are always, there are both sides. Everything is impermanent, so we cannot, you know, predict. And yet, if we don't do certain things, there's no certain, you know, result. That's not true. There are many cases of people who've been doing very bad things, and their lives have been suddenly changed.

[38:54]

So... Suddenly changed? Changed for the good. We have stories, many stories. But not always. But you said, if we don't do good now, we know that in the future we won't have A positive response. I think that is true. I mean, in Buddhism there is a kind of a theory of cause and effect in three times. I don't want to bog us down in details, but we have stories of people hit by lightning. Yes, it's changed. But they didn't bring about that lightning. That lightning just hit them. And that changed their life. Of course. There's a cause and effect there. If they are not hit by lightning, they don't change.

[40:00]

But they hit by... that's the cause, right? Right, but they are their own actions. Of course, of course. So, what I said is cause and effect is not private, no personal one. Okay? But it's not true that we can't be doing bad things and then all of a sudden, I mean, it's by the same token of the point you were making, which is you could be doing very good things and end up in a very bad situation. Of course it's possible. Of course it's possible. Sure. Well. Part of your question? Oh, this could go on all day. Actually, I do have another question. There's a story, I think we've talked about this before, but maybe this story will relate. It's about a guy who was a murderer, in fact, and committed many, many, many crimes.

[41:03]

And he met the Buddha. And this is a person who was wearing a crown or a necklace made out of people's fingers that he had killed. And the Buddha somehow related to him in a way he felt like his life was worthwhile. What was that? Do you remember that story? Yes, that's a famous one. I think that story... Before we start to talk about that story, we have to talk about theory of cause and effect in Buddhism said there are... cause and effect is not... how can I say... effect or result from some cause doesn't take place right away. Sometimes it takes place right away. Or we can visible the connection of cause and effect. Like when we plant a

[42:07]

sunflower seed, we have sunflower in the summer. So we can see the cause is seed, or planting seed, and the effect is sunflower. If we don't plant sunflower seed, we cannot get sunflower seed. If we plant, you know, eggplant seed, we get eggplant seed. So there's, you know, certain cause and effect, and we can see this, you know, causality. or connection. But... It's said, you know, there are... Dogen Zenjo also wrote one chapter about these topics. But sometimes that cause and effect is not visible. When I do something, right now, the result will be maybe in 10 years later, or 20 years later, or even after my death. Or in Buddhism, you know, it says, you know, there's next life.

[43:08]

Or probably, you know, many lives later. You know, anyway, everything we do will have result. That is a principle of cause and effect. So it's not a matter of this time of the year. So, within this time of life, within this life, maybe even if we do something bad, we may have good fortune. But if we think in the long run, many lives, Actually, you know, we have bad result from bad deed. And good result, or not good and bad, but the word used in Buddhism is, how can I say, not good and bad, but bad deed cause suffering. Good deed cause peace or nirvana.

[44:15]

So causality, cause and effect, is not something we can really see with our eyes within this lifetime or within a certain period of time. It's really connected with beginningless beginning to the endless end. That is one thing, and about the story of the person whose name is Okutsumara, who killed 99 persons, or 999 persons. There are many, several variations of this story. Basically, the person killed so many people, and the hundredth or thousandth person was Buddha.

[45:22]

And sometimes this person was saved by Buddha, so he quit killing people and became Buddha's disciple. And after he became Buddha's disciple, Buddha told him that you should tell people that I never kill anyone. And that is a lie. That is not true. So that is a kind of violation of precept, not telling a lie, not telling a falsehood. But Buddha told him When people said, you know, you used to be a killer or murderer, you should say, I never killed any life. And yet, of course, you know, people, you know, remember what he did. So he, people, you know, throw the stones to him and attacked him.

[46:32]

And Buddha said, you should be patient. You should be really patient. Now you receive the result of what you did. And if you are patient at this moment, you will receive the result of this practice of patience. Does that make sense? Thinking of the story, I think I read where it's like, maybe karma is like a fan. and it's running, and we turn it off. Even though we turn the electricity off, the fan, the blades still rotate. So we do things, and even though we've stopped the cause, we still live with the effects. Yes, yes. We're stopped doing that thing. Yes, yes. And we have to be patient. That's the meaning of karma. So some result from my past life, in my past, in this life, was something my family did in the past could bring some result to me.

[47:45]

Or what human beings did in the past may affect the future of humankind. So, you know, causality or cause and effect is not a matter of one individual person, but humankind has its own, I think, cause and effect or karma. So, even though I didn't do something, you know, our descendants have some effect from what we are doing right now. meet ill fortune, then if we meet it with patience, that would mean that we could be changing. Yeah, we can change because, you know, there's no fixed self. Our life is really fresh each moment.

[48:45]

That's why, you know, even though, you know, we had a good and bad karma from the past, Still, you know, our life is always fresh, and it's always neutral. There's no good or bad person. Even though we have many good and bad karma, this person at this moment is neutral. Neither good nor bad. And there's really not much room for bitterness. For bitterness. Yes. Okay. May I go back to Kejogwa? Okay, section four. Let me read first. Therefore, flowers fall down even though we love them. Weeds grow even though we dislike them. Conveying oneself toward all things to carry out practice enlightenment is delusion.

[49:53]

All things coming and carrying out practice enlightenment through the Self is realization. Those who greatly realize delusion are Buddhas. Those who are greatly deluded in realization are living beings. Furthermore, there are those who attain realization beyond realization and those who are deluded within delusion. This is section four. Here, in the first three sentences, he picked up three kind of pairs, delusion, realization, life and death, buddhas and living beings. In this section he talks about fat is delusion, and fat is realization, and fat is Buddha, and fat is living beings.

[51:00]

So this is Dogen's definition of fat is delusion, fat is enlightenment, fat is Buddha, and fat is living beings. And in the section 8 he talks about life and death, or arising and perishing, Here, Dogen says... From here, he talks about Buddha way. That means when we are actually practicing or living within Buddha's way. Flowers fall down even though we love them. And weeds grow even though we dislike them. Flower is something we like. And weed is not something we don't like. We cannot have only flowers.

[52:01]

Even though we love flowers so much, flowers fall down. Even though we dislike weeds, weeds come up. That is the reality of our life. That is our actual life. So we cannot say there are no flowers and no weeds. There are flowers and weeds and we have to work on that. That means we have to work on the garden to weed. And weed means here, weed means our delusion or desires. And flowers means enlightenment or insight of impermanence and eagerness. and being compassionate to all beings. That is flowers. And, you know, flower doesn't exist as, you know, as a self-nature, as something fixed. And desires or delusions, you know, are always coming up.

[53:07]

They are actually living things. That is actually, you know, our life. So, you know, We have both weeds and flowers. In this case, dharma flowers. Or lotus flowers. Weeds always come up with ourselves. So we have to take care of them. Usually, or often, we think we need some chemicals to kill weeds and grow only flowers. That's the best way, most desirable way. And we think our practice is like applying chemicals. to kill weeds and grow only flowers.

[54:08]

But actually it doesn't work in that way. We have to pick weeds one by one. And there's no way we kill only weeds and grow only flowers. Flowers and weeds are always together. And so what we do is somehow we have to use weeds. to grow flowers, and it's possible. If we take, you know, pick up each weed and make a compost, then it helps to grow flowers. So, that is the way we practice. Our practice of zazen is, in a sense, picking each weed one by one. That means, you know, whenever come up inside of a... whenever, you know, small thoughts come up, we let go. By letting go, you know, we don't negate them, we don't kill them, but we somehow, in a sense, we accept them. But we are not being pulled by them.

[55:09]

That's the way, you know, weeds become compost or nutrition for us. And also, Uchamaro said, desires or delusions How can I say? Capital of capital? The money to open the business. What do you say? Capital? Desires or delusions are capital of bodhisattva. That's the money we can start to work, start business. That means, in order to help others, if we don't have desire or delusion, and we never make mistakes, there is no way to understand people who make mistakes. So, if we have illusion or delusion and desire, and make many mistakes, and we take care of our mistakes each time, then we understand how to get out of the problem.

[56:14]

and we can be helpful for the people who are in trouble. If we have a problem, we have the same experience. If we have no such experience and just enlightenment, no way to help others. We cannot understand why people are suffering, why people make mistakes. But because we have delusions, desires, and we make many mistakes and problems, and pain, we can make some advice to the people who have the same difficulty. In that sense, we are really important. Well, I don't have enough time to talk too much on one thing. So somehow, you know, flowers, in order to grow flowers, we have to pick weeds. We have to work with weeds.

[57:16]

And in that case, that is our practice. And when we practice, within practice, so what Dogen Zenji is saying here is when we are actually practicing, Please be careful about that point. Conveying oneself toward all things to carry out practice enlightenment is delusion. That means, conveying oneself means, you know, we take this, myself, this person, toward all things. That means he's talking about enlightenment and delusion in relationship with self and others. You know, as a kind of common sense, we think enlightenment is a condition where we have no delusion or no desires.

[58:25]

But according to Dogen, Enlightenment or delusion is not a matter of condition of our mind without relationship with others. But delusion and enlightenment or realization are only within the relationship with self and others. And when we take this self into other beings and try to carry out practice enlightenment, to do something actively, depending upon my idea, my opinion. my view, my aspiration. Of course, in this case, good aspiration. Even though we have good spirit, good motivation, if we, you know, take this person's idea or understanding or opinion to others and try to carry out practice enlightenment, then, he said, that is delusion.

[59:29]

Because still, you know, this person's idea, this person's understanding, this person's opinion. But he says, all things coming to us, all things, all beings, myriad dharma, come to this person, this self, and carry out, practice enlightenment through his enlightenment. Do you understand the difference? different. Even if when we do the same thing, you know, in the same zendo, if we practice based on ourselves, this individual self, and try to, you know, deal or handle, you know, all other things, that is delusion. But all beings, you know, coming towards this self, and carry out practice enlightenment, is enlightenment.

[60:37]

In that case, the subject which practice is all beings. And in the first case, the subject of practice is this person. I practice. I do this. Because I think this is good for them. That is delusion, according to Dogen. But all beings come toward this self and carry out practice enlightenment. In that case, all beings practice through this body and mind, through using this person. That's the difference. Could you relate this idea to the talk you gave the other night when you talked about shoshin, and in regards to all things coming and carrying out, practicing life through the self-realization, can you relate that to the idea of shoshin?

[61:40]

Shoshin, beginning of mind? Well, beginner's mind. The expression beginner's mind came out of Suzuki Roshi's book, Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind. And in Suzuki Roshi's teaching, beginner's mind is a really important thing. He said, the goal of our practice is to keep beginner's mind. I think that is what Suzuki Roshi said in the very beginning of the book. And I think beginner's mind is... Beginner, I think, means, you know, when we are beginner, we know nothing. So, our mind is empty. Our mind is fresh. So, we try to see and learn. You know? I think that is the way, you know, all things come towards me and make me practice, or allow me to practice. And yet when we think, you know, I'm an experienced person, or expert, you know, I think I know everything.

[62:48]

So I think, you know, this should be this way, that should be that way. And I deal with those things. In that case, this person is doing. I think that's an important point. That is an important point in our practice. So to keep or maintain, beginner's mind means to keep our mind empty and listen to all things, all beings, listen to media dharma, and further, you know, this body and mind in this state.

[63:25]

@Text_v004
@Score_JJ