If there is a fixed thing called suffering or pain, and there is a fixed thing called desire or delusion, how can we become free from them? We can become free from them because they are empty. suffering is not really suffering. And delusion or desire is not really delusion or delusion. Delusion, desire or delusion, because they are empty. Empty means they don't have self-nature. And nirvana has also no self-nature. It's empty. And practice is also, it has no self-nature. But if we think there is suffering, there is nirvana, and there is a path to reach to nirvana, this kind of practice still based on separation or dualistic view,

[01:21]

That means we are in this shore, and Nirvana is on the other shore, so we don't like this, so we want to be there. This is, again, very dualistic and based on our illusion. Do you understand? this kind of separation itself is delusion. And desire to become free from suffering is our own personal desire. And the goal or object of desire is different. And yet, things happening inside of ourselves are the same. I feel something lacking, so I want to get there. I want to be free from desire or delusion, so I want to practice this in order to become free from that.

[02:30]

That is the goal. So actual motivation and things happening inside of our mind is the same. I feel I'm poor and I don't like to be poor, so I want to be rich. That is my goal, so I work hard. Same thing. That means we work hard in order to gain something. And we are living and practicing on that basis. There is no time we can become free from this desire, this motivation, this way. I practice or I work hard to get this, That's called, you know, our practice of Buddha's teaching that makes our practice of Buddha's teaching sansara.

[03:34]

Still it's sansara. You know, when we did it, we feel we did that. We feel we attained that stage. We feel happy. And then we feel, you know, we cannot. that causes another kind of suffering, pain. And I think almost all of us, it's not possible to be Buddha. So somehow we have to think, we have to find a way, you know, even become free from this kind of motivation or desire. That is what Mahayana Buddhists and bodhisattva try to find. And their answer, I think, is to live together with all beings and try to be helpful for all beings is more important than to reduce or eliminate our delusion or desire.

[04:44]

even though we have delusion, desire, and even though we still have egocentricity, if we practice on the basis of reality in which everything is together, everything is interconnected, that is, interdependent origination, even though we don't eliminate our delusion or desire, this practice itself is a manifestation of actual or ultimate reality that we are living together with all beings. So as far as we are trying to eliminate our delusion and desire that is cause of suffering, there's no way we can become free from suffering. But when we, as I said, you know, about the Zen, even though there are delusions, desires, selfishness, or whatever, when we live with our vow to follow Buddha's teachings, that is, you know, for Bodhisattva vows,

[06:02]

then we are not become Buddha. But our action, our practice is based on Buddha's teaching of non-reality and no fixed nature of suffering or samsara or delusion or this egocentric self. That idea or attitude or practice is based on deep understanding of emptiness. Emptiness means non-duality. There is non-duality even between samsara and nirvana, delusion and enlightenment, or living beings and Buddha. I think that is what the Heart Sutra and Mahayana Buddhist is saying. Sansara and Nirvana are one, actually. So, to me, you know, the first sentence is Buddha's teaching.

[07:12]

There are vulnerable truths. There is suffering, cause of suffering and Nirvana and the path to the Nirvana. And second sentence is teaching of Mahayana Buddhism. There are no such things. They are one. No distinction between delusion and enlightenment. No separation between Buddhas and living beings, and life and death. Please. In the first sentence and the second sentence too, it starts out, when all dharmas are the Buddha dharma. Is that why that sometimes dharmas are not the Buddha dharma? No. This means always. There's no time all dharmas are not Buddha dharma. And there's no time all dharmas are fixed self. How come you didn't say that there is illusion and realization? Why did it even begin?

[08:13]

with Dharma, the Buddha Dharma. Well, that's the way Dogen expressed it. I'm sorry. Have you translated Buddha Dharma as Buddhist teaching? Buddha Dharma as Buddha's teaching, you still admit when you accept Buddha's teaching? Yes, I think in this case. And also Buddha's teaching means, of course, you know, teaching about the reality. So Dharma also means reality or truth. And dharma as teaching is a kind of expression of truth as with using language. So actually both are the same.

[09:14]

Okay. Do you have some question? I think maybe you answered it, but it's really about the question of effort. It seems that some people actually can achieve this kind of understanding with almost no effort, or no effort at all. I mean, there are phenomenal pieces, and other people have to exert tremendous amount of effort. Yes. How do you explain that? I think that's why Dogen Benji is writing this chapter. In this whole Genjo Koan, what is practice? In these three sentences, there's practice only in the first sentence. In the second sentence, there's no practice. And in the case of the second sentence, because there's no practice, no way to practice, but in the third sentence, I think that is what I'm going to say, the third sentence, this sentence is about practice.

[10:30]

So he doesn't need to say, put practice in there. That means, Since the Buddha Way by nature goes beyond the dichotomy of abundance and deficiency, so the first sentence is about Buddha Dharma, or Buddha's teaching, or the truth taught by Buddha. Those first two sentences are about Dharma. And the third sentence is about Buddha Way. Way is not a teaching, but way is practice. We have to walk with our own legs. So in the first two sentences, Dogen is talking about Dharma, Buddha's teaching, and the reality which is expressed, showed through Buddha's teachings. And the third sentence is about our actual practice and actual life.

[11:33]

That is effort. We have to make effort. We have to use our body and mind. Please. When all dharmas, just to pick up on that one, when did it get? You know, I mean, in English, mind the universe. If, or we can say because. Well, let's say it. Okay. Okay. But after what Dogen used, G said, G said both means time. Time. Yeah. Let's say you take the position that all dharmas. Yes. So, or, that means, yeah. Then, there is delusion, and then, therefore, the second one is, but if you take the position that the dharmas have no fixed self, then Therefore, they find these things, because they're all empty.

[12:40]

Right, right. So, I mean, one way of saying it is like you could say, if you take the deletion, that this happens, if you take the other deletion, then that happens. Yes. But then in the third, she says, then we all agree that we must agree to her that that the Buddha way by nature goes beyond. We agree with it now, right? Yes. So Buddha nature, I mean Buddha way, is the way we have to walk. We have to actually live out. So it's not a matter of whether or not. But when we are actually practicing, when we really understand Buddha's teaching and Mahayana teaching, You know, as Dogen kind of summarized in the first and second sentence, we have to practice. We have to live based on those dharma or truth.

[13:44]

And then we actually walk on that way. Because that way is beyond the dichotomy of abundance and deficiency. Abundance and deficiency is something positive and something negative. That means, you know, dichotomy of delusion, realization, life, death, Buddha, Buddhas, and living beings. Because the way is beyond those dichotomies. It's a kind of a twist here, a logical twist. There is arising and perishing. delusion and realization, living beings and Buddhas. I mean, that means if the way is beyond those dichotomies, we can say there is no, that's more natural . There's no arising and perishing because, you know, beyond, beyond the dichotomy.

[14:53]

But I think it's really important point to understand this point. I mean, his logic is not, you know, usual common logic. That means when we actually live based on Buddha's teaching and Mahaya teaching, You know, there are arising and perishing, life and death, and there are delusion and realization, and living beings and Buddha, and yet they are not dichotomy. You know, when we have pain, we are in samsara, we are 100% samsara. There is no way to compare this condition to nirvana. When we are doing something, we are 100% there.

[15:58]

In fact, we are doing it not in dichotomy with something else. So we are practicing Zazen. We are 100% practicing Zazen. This is not the path to become free from samsara or suffering. This is not a step to reach nirvana. But this is where we are sitting. We are 100% there. When we are free from suffering, we are 100% free from suffering. There is no suffering in that stage or in that time or condition. But when we do something selfish, we are 100% selfish. When we do something without selfish desire, we are 100% selfish, being free from selfishness. I mean, Sakyaroshi said, we have, all of us have Buddha nature, and yet all of us have, you know, thief nature, too.

[17:09]

And when we steal something, then our thief nature manifested, then that makes, you know, we are 100% a thief. But when we do something according to Buddha's teaching, This action is 100% the Dharma. It's not a matter of whether we are thief or Buddha. within practice, within Buddha way. If we think, you know, put them in a kind of an objective way and put, you know, thief and Buddha and thief nature and Buddha nature and action, you know, or make decision to, you know, which way we should go, you know, we are already outside of the way and watching the way. like we are outside of the world and watching the world.

[18:10]

That is the way we think using our words or language. But when we are actually really doing something, we are inside of the world. We are in the world. We cannot see from outside. But when we think using language, somehow we have to be objective. And we think to be objective is better than to be subjective. But the way we see our life, the way we live within this life is beyond dichotomy of subject and object. We are always within that, within this world. We are already living. We are already being born in this world and living in this world. We cannot see this world from the outside. But when we think using our language and logic, we try to keep outside and to be objective.

[19:13]

And it's important. not to be subjective, but to be objective cause another problem. That means we become a kind of an object and subject. Our life is separated into two parts, subject and object. We are always trying to check what we are doing, evaluate what we are doing, whether we are good boy or bad boy. But when we are doing something good, we are 100% good boy. And when we are doing something bad, we are 100% bad boy. There's no way to judge it. That is the way we are actually living. Do you understand what I mean? When we use language, we're always... Yeah, like seeing the world from outside of the world become objective like, you know, God is watching us.

[20:24]

Understand? But when we are sitting, not only sitting, but for example, when we are sitting, there's no way we observe ourselves. We are sitting, and all of us are sitting. All life of us are sitting. There's no way I can judge or evaluate whether my zazen is good or bad, whether I am free from desire or not. But when we are being pulled by our desire, we are 100% being pulled by desire. So there's no excuse. But then we are even a small thing. Even when we do something, being free from desire, our egocentric desire, even a small thing, that is where the lotus flower blooms. And even if a small thing we do based on our selfishness, you know, samsara arise.

[21:39]

So it's just a matter of moment by moment. We cannot see, you know, our life or this world objectively in our practice. And the ground on which Togen is talking about Genjo Koan is on the ground of practice, actual life, actual living. Unless we really clearly understand that point, Genjo Koan doesn't make sense, I guess. So much, you know, there are so much contradiction. There are so much paradox. But if we read and think, we have to think. Think as a person who is really practicing, really being in the world, within this life. I think, you know, that Dogen Zenji's writing makes sense.

[22:44]

So the rest of Genjo Koan, Dogen Zenji, is discussing about practice. Only in the first sentence he used the word practice because the rest of the writing of Genjo Koan, he's talking about practice. Where is the time to stop? Yes. Well, I think I finished talking three sentences. And we have one more session in the afternoon, right? Can I continue the talk? Yes, you're supposed to. Okay. And since then, my body has been constantly changing. For a certain period of time, I became, you know, grow.

[23:48]

That means became, you know, bigger and bigger. And at a certain point, it stopped and kept in the same shape and gradually, you know, shrinking again and sometimes disappear. That is the reality of our life. So it's always changing. And my mind is also changing. You know, what I thought in my twenties and what I think in my forties are different. The way I think is also different. And something I liked twenty years ago is not something I like now. So, you know, our body is changing and our mind is changing. But still we feel or we think or we assume there's something which doesn't change as, you know, this person.

[24:51]

Buddha's teaching, egolessness means there's no such things which doesn't change. And the ego or Atman as a Buddhist term means a definition of ego in Buddhism is something which is permanent, something which doesn't change, and something which is only one. And something, it's a shoe, something owns this body and mind. And something which controls this body and mind. And even though our body and mind are changing, body and mind mean five skandhas. First one, dupa, or form, is body, in the case of this person. And other four are mind. So five skandhas are always changing. But still we think something exists which doesn't change and which is only one and which is the owner of this body and mind and which operates this body and mind.

[26:06]

And what Buddha taught by the expression egolessness or anatoma means there is no such thing. Only a condition of body and mind which is constantly changing. That is a meaning of no self-nature. So there's no self-nature within ourselves. No self-nature with glass or paper or book or floor or this house. That's why it can be changed depending upon cause and conditions. Is that enough? Please. One is that, so each person, the thing is unique. Yes. Unique and fresh. Unique and fresh.

[27:08]

Always new. And also, it would be right to think as though they are characteristic. Well, we are in causality, cause and effect, cause and effect, so there's some continuation. So we are like a waterfall, river or a waterfall. you know, it's always changing, always flowing. So we cannot say, you know, this is waterfall. We cannot, you know, take something and call this is waterfall. When we take some water from waterfall and show it, it's not a waterfall anymore. And yet we cannot say waterfall doesn't there. It's really there. But we cannot say that waterfall does exist as a certain fixed thing. I understand, but we are responsible. Of course, of course. There's some continuation as cause and effect.

[28:14]

So we are responsible for what we did yesterday. And yet we cannot say this is the same person. This is why also we cannot say we don't exist and we cannot say we don't exist. It's really, you know, how can I say, our life is really paradoxical. There's no way to fix and define whether this exists or not, whether this, you know, is always same or different, you know. So emptiness is really empty also. If we think there's something called emptiness exists, that's a mistake. So somehow nothing is fixed, and yet there's something we have to be responsible for.

[29:17]

That was called, you know, that's fine, you know, Buddha's teaching or this reality of our life is called Wanderer's Dharma. That means we can't grasp with our mind, using our language and concept, you know, When we use our concept or language, we have to follow the rules of logics. And I think the basic rules of logics are, you know, logics doesn't like contradiction. You know, A must be A. I'm listening to you, and I can't get it with my mind. It's just, I mean... If I hear it and I know what you said, I read it, and I can't grasp it logically. Yes, logic doesn't work. That is the meaning of emptiness. That is another meaning of emptiness. Logic doesn't work. For example, there are rules of logic.

[30:29]

A must be A. And A cannot be non-A. And there's nothing between A and non-A. For example, a baby. A baby cannot be a boy. Because baby and boy are different. And yet then how can we explain, you know, a baby become a boy? You know, Nagarjuna are good at this kind of discussion. How, you know, in order to explain that or to understand that, you know, A, something A become non-A, you know, in reality, you know, baby become a boy or a girl or even an aged person. We think, you know, to be a baby is one condition of something which is not baby. You know, I was a boy and I was a, you know, I was a baby, I was a boy, I was a teenager, I was a... That is a kind of something we create through our mind.

[31:47]

in order to make reality understandable. But as a reality, just a baby as a condition, and nothing which is a baby as a temporal condition. That is the meaning of emptiness, I think, according to my understanding. I'm not sure whether it makes sense or not. And And yet, you know, as a kind of a habit, we think there's something which doesn't change called ego. And that is owner of this body and mind. Because of that, this is the most important thing. So in order to, you know, so we try to protect this ego and make it powerful and rich, famous, I think ideally we think this is the most important thing for me.

[33:00]

And we try to live based on this idea of ego. This is the most important thing. And that becomes the basis of our life. And in order to protect this ego, we try to gain something we like, and we try to reject something we don't like. That makes our life egocentric. And according to Buddha, that is a cause of suffering. and our practice as a buddhist is how we can see inside we have inside that there's no such you know one thing that will change doesn't exist but everything exists is just a collection of cause and conditions that's you know how you know everything are connected because you know this

[34:11]

by something else, actually everything else. So this person is connected with everything, all the causes, causes and conditions. That means this person is really supported by all beings. That is the meaning of emptiness and interdependent originations. So we are really connected with everything. That is, I think, that is positive. aspect of emptiness. And when we use the word emptiness, it's kind of a negative connotation that is such things like ego or self-nature, which we want to, doesn't exist. So we have to somehow negate those things. Do you understand?

[35:12]

Okay, okay. So if I'm 58, and I want next year to be better for me, I want next year better. Because I think I'm going to be a good person next year. So with the Buddhist way of looking at it, be uh i can do something and those causes will make me better next year sure that can you know our life is you know continuation of cause and effect cause and effect so uh what we do now you know bring about what will be next year Because it'll be a course, not so much because I'm... Yeah. You know, so there's some continuation, you know. Okay?

[36:15]

Good. Please. I have a question that is following that question. I think cause and effect makes sense if we still think that this is my life, separate from everybody else. Then it's like, what I do will change this life, because it's just mine. Actually, my life is also everybody else's life. So, even if I make decisions to do something that's good for me, still, my life is also made up of everyone else's life, so my life is not guaranteed to be good, you know? Like, just because I make the right decision. When cause and effect is not something private. Yeah. So, you know, for example... Or, for example, you know, someone, you know, do exercise, like jogging, in order to be healthy.

[37:18]

But because of, you know, running on the street, they may have, the person may have accident, car accident, and they may die. So the cause and the effect is not something, doesn't, you know, cause and effect doesn't connect connected as we expect you know when you run by the you know sidewalk there's possibility to you know have a you know a car accident and we cannot say there's no cause and effect there's another cause and effect So cause and effect is not so simple. There are so many kind of relationships, so many different relationships we cannot see. So it's not so simple. If we do something good now, we may have a... we have good, you know, future or not.

[38:22]

It's not certain. But if we don't do, you know, good things, it's certain that good things are going to happen. So there are always both sides. Everything is impermanent, so we cannot, you know, predict. And yet, if we don't do certain things, there are no certain, you know, results. That's not true. There are many cases of people who've been doing very bad things and then what has happened suddenly changed. So... Suddenly changed? Changed for the good. We have stories, many stories. But not always. But not always. But you said, if we don't do good now, we know that in the future we won't have a positive response? I think that, too. I mean, in Buddhism, there's a kind of a theory of cause and effect in three times.

[39:30]

I don't want to bog us down in the deep end, but we have stories of people bit by lightning. Okay? Phenomenal stories, right? Their life is changed. They've been terrible people. Yes, it's changed. But they didn't bring them out through the lightning, they just hit them. And that changed their life. Of course. There's a cause and effect there. If they are not hit by lightning, they don't change. But they hit, that's the cause, right? Right. Of course. Of course. So what I said is cause and effect is not private, no personal one. Okay? But it's not true that we can't be doing bad things and then all of a sudden, I mean, it's by the same token of the point you were making, just you couldn't be doing very good things and end up in a very bad situation. Oh, of course it's possible.

[40:31]

If we do very bad things, we end up in a good situation. Oh, of course it's possible. Sure. Well, what is your question? Oh, it's going to go on all day. Okay. Actually, I do have another question. There's a story, I think we talked about this before, but maybe this story will relate, is about a guy who was a murderer, in fact, and committed many, many, many crimes, and he met the Buddha. You know, this is a person who was wearing a crown, a necklace made out of people's fingers that he killed. And the Buddha somehow related to him in a way that he felt like his life was worthwhile. What was that? I mean, do you remember that story? Yes, that's famous one. Okay. I think that story... or people start to talk about that story, we have to talk about the theory of cause and effect in Buddhism.

[41:40]

Said there are cause and effect is not, how can I say, effect or result from some cause doesn't take place right away. Sometimes it takes place right away, or we can visible the connection of cause and effect. Like when we plant sunflower seed, we have sunflower in the summer. So we can see cause is seed, or planting seed, and effect is flower, sunflower. If we don't plant sunflower seed, we cannot get sunflower seed. If we plant eggplant seed, we get eggplant seed. So there's certain cause and effect, and we can see this causality or connection. It said, you know, there are... Dogen Benjo also wrote one chapter about these topics.

[42:47]

But sometimes that cause and effect is not visible. When I do something right now, result will be maybe in 10 years later or 20 years later or even after, you know, my death. Or in Buddhism, you know, it said, you know, there's next life. or probably many lives later. Anyway, everything we do will have result. That is a principle of cause and effect. So it's not a matter of this time of the year. So within this time of life, or within this life, maybe even if we do something bad, we may have good fortune. But if we think in the long run, many lives, actually will have a bad result from bad deed and good result, or not good and bad, but the word used in Buddhism is, how can I say, not good and bad, but bad deed cause suffering, good deed cause peace or nirvana.

[44:15]

So causality, cause and effect is not something we can really see with our eyes within this lifetime or within a certain period of time. It's really connected with beginningless beginning to the endless end. That is one thing, and about the story of the person whose name is Okutsumara who killed 99 persons or 999 persons. There are many, several variations of this story, but basically the person killed so many people, and the hundredth or one thousandth person was Buddha.

[45:22]

And sometimes This person was saved by Buddha, so he quit killing people and became Buddha's disciple. And after he became Buddha's disciple, Buddha told him that you should tell people that I never kill anyone. And that is a lie. That is not true. So that is kind of violation of precept, not telling a lie, not telling a falsehood. But Buddha told him, when people said, you know, you used to be a killer or murderer, you should say, I never killed any life. And yet, of course, you know, people, you know, remember what he did. So he, people, you know, throw the stones to him and attacked him.

[46:32]

And Buddha said, you should be patient. You should be really patient. Now you receive the result that you did. And if you be patient at this moment, you will receive the result of this practice of patience. That makes sense. I'm thinking of a story I think I read where it's like, maybe karma is like a fan, and it's running, and we turn it off, but even though we turn the electricity off, the fan, the blade's still rotating. So we do things, and even though we've stopped the cause, we still live with the effects. If we stop doing that thing, and we have to be patient... That's the meaning of karma. So some result from my past life, in my past, in this life, you know, something, you know, my family did in the past could, you know, bring some result to me.

[47:45]

Or what human beings did in the past may, you know, affect the future of humankind. So, you know, causality or cause and effect is not a matter of one individual persons, but humankind have its own, I think, cause and effect or karma. So even though I didn't do something, you know, our descendants have some effect from what we are doing right now. So when we meet our fortune, then if we meet it with patience, That would mean that we could be changing. Yeah, we can change because, you know, there's no fixed self. Our life is really fresh each moment.

[48:45]

That's why, you know, even though, you know, we had good and bad karma from the past, Still, you know, our life is always fresh, and it's always neutral. There's no good or bad person. Even though we had many good and bad karma, this person at this moment is neutral. Neither good nor bad. And there's really not much room for bitterness. Yes. Okay. May I go back to Kejokuwa? Okay, section four. Let me read first. Therefore, flowers fall down even though we love them. Weeds grow even though we dislike them. Conveying oneself toward all things to carry out practice enlightenment is delusion.

[49:53]

All things coming and carrying out practice enlightenment through the self is realization. Those who greatly realize delusion are Buddhas. Those who are greatly deluded in realization are living beings. Furthermore, there are those who attain realization beyond realization and those who are deluded within delusion. This is Section 4. Here, in the first three sentences, he picked up three kinds of pairs, delusion, realization, life and death, Buddhas and living beings. In this section he talks about what is delusion and what is realization, and what is Buddha and what is living beings.

[51:00]

So this is Dogen's definition of what is delusion, what is enlightenment, what is Buddhas, and what is living beings. And in the Section 8, he talks about life and death, or arising and perishing. So here, Dogen says, from here he talks about Buddha way. That means we are actually practicing or living within Buddha's way. Flowers fall down even though we love them, and weeds grow even though we dislike them. Flowers are something we like, and weeds are not something we don't like. So we cannot have only flowers.

[52:01]

Even though we love flowers so much, flowers fall down. Even though we dislike weeds, weeds come up. That is the reality of our life. That is our actual life. So we cannot say, you know, there's no flowers and no weeds. There are flowers and weeds, and we have to work on that. You know, that means we have to work on the garden to weed. And weed means, here weed means our delusion, our desires. And our flowers means enlightenment or insight of impermanence and egolessness and being compassionate to all beings. That is flowers. And flower doesn't exist as a self-nature, as something fixed. And desires or delusions are always coming up.

[53:07]

They are actually living things. That is actually our life. So we have both weeds and flowers. In this case, dharma flowers. or lotus flowers. We always come up with them ourselves, so we have to take care of them. Usually or often we think we need some chemicals to kill weeds and grow only flowers. That's the best way, most desirable way. And we think our practice is like applying chemicals to kill weeds and grow only flowers.

[54:08]

But actually it doesn't work in that way. We have to pick weeds one by one. And there's no way we kill only weeds and grow only flowers. Flowers and weeds are always together. And so what we do is somehow we have to use weeds to grow flowers, and it's possible. If we pick up each weed and make a compost, then it helps to grow flowers. So that is the way we practice. I think that our practice of zazen is, in a sense, picking each weed one by one. That means, you know, whenever come up inside of us, whenever, you know, small thoughts come up, we let go. By letting go, you know, we don't negate them, we don't kill them, but we somehow, in a sense, we accept them. But we are not being pulled by them.

[55:10]

That's the way, you know, greed becomes compost or nutrition for us. And also Uchamaro said, desires or delusions are, how can I say, a capital of capital, the money to open the business. How do you say? Capital? Desires or delusions are capital of bodhisattva. That's the money we can start to work, start business. That means in order to help others, if we don't have desire or delusion and we never make mistakes, there's no way to understand people who make mistakes. So if we have delusion and desire and make many mistakes and we take care of our mistakes each time, then we understand how to get out of the problem.

[56:14]

And we can be helpful for the people who are in trouble if we have the same experience. If we have no such experience and just enlightenment, no way to help others. We cannot understand why people are suffering, why people make mistakes, but because we have delusion. desired and we made many mistakes and problems and pain, we can make some advice to the people who have same difficulty. In that sense, we are really important. Well, I don't have enough time to talk too much on one thing. So somehow, you know, flowers, in order to grow flowers, we have to pick weeds. We have to work with weeds.

[57:16]

And in that case, that is our practice. And when we practice, within practice, so what Dogen Zenji is saying here is when we are actually practicing, He doesn't talk about people who don't practice. Please be careful about that point. Conveying oneself toward all things to carry out practice enlightenment is delusion. That means convey oneself means we take this person toward all things. That means he's talking about enlightenment and delusion in relationship with self and others. You know, as a kind of common sense, we think, you know, enlightenment is a condition where, you know, we have no delusion or no desire.

[58:25]

But according to Dogen, enlightenment or delusion is not a matter of condition of our mind without relationship with others. But delusion and enlightenment or realization are only within the relationship with self and others. And when we take this self into other being and try to carry out practice enlightenment, that means try to do something actively, depending upon my idea, opinion, my view, my aspiration, of course, in this case, good aspiration, even though we have good spirit, good motivation. If we take this person's idea or understanding or opinion to others and try to carry out practice, enlightenment, then he said that is delusion.

[59:30]

Because still, you know, this person's idea, this person's understanding, this person's opinion. But she says, all things coming to us, all things, all beings, myriad dharma, come to this person, this self, and carry out practice enlightenment through this enlightenment. Do you understand the difference? The direction is different. Even when we do the same thing in the same zendo, if we practice based on ourselves, this individual self, and try to deal or handle all other things, that is delusion. But all beings coming toward this self and carry out practice enlightenment is enlightenment.

[60:38]

In that case, the subject which practice is all beings. And in the first case, the subject of practice is this person. I practice. I do this. Because I know it is good for them. That is delusion, according to Dogen. But all beings come toward this self and carry out practice enlightenment. In that case, all beings practice through this body and mind, through using this person. That's the difference. Could you relate this idea to the talk you gave the other night? You talked about shoshin, and in regards to all things coming and carrying out, practice and light, give yourself with realization. Can you relate that to the idea of shoshin?

[61:40]

Shoshin, being that mind? where the expression beginner's mind came out of Circe Rossi's book, The Mind, Beginner's Mind. And in Suzuki Roshi's teaching, beginner's mind is a really important thing. He said, the goal of our practice is keep beginner's mind. I think that is what Suzuki Roshi said in the very beginning of the book. And I think beginner's mind is—beginner, I think, means when we are beginner, we know nothing. So our mind is empty, our mind is fresh. So we try to see and learn. I think that is the way all things come toward me and allow me to practice. And yet when we think, you know, I'm experienced person or expert, you know, I think I know everything.

[62:48]

So I think, you know, this should be this way, that should be that way. And I deal with those things. In that case, this person is doing. I think that, you know, important point, that is an important point in our practice. So to keep or maintain the inner mind means to keep our mind empty and listen to all things, all beings, listen to medial dharma and further, you know, this body and mind in this state.

[63:25]

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