I think so. I think so. I think the Koans try to say the same thing. Neither living nor dying, or neither alive nor dead. This one is, the master and the student went to a funeral of a certain lay person. And the student hit a cascade and asked the teacher, life or death, or living, or is this person alive or dead? And the master said, I don't... He said, I don't tell you. I don't tell you. I don't say.

[01:05]

Then the student became angry. He didn't teach me the truth. So, on their way back to the monastery, the teacher and the student asked, the teacher again, tell me. If you don't tell me, I will hit you. And still the teacher said, I don't say, I don't say. So the student actually hit him. That is a longer story, but that story I think shows the same thing. And this is Dogen's answer to that call. Section 9. When a person attains realization, it is like the moon reflecting on the water.

[02:09]

The moon never becomes wet. The water is never destroyed. Although it is a vast and great light, it reflects itself on a small amount of water. The whole moon and even the whole sky reflect on even a drop of dew on a blade of grass, or a single tiny drop of water. Enlightenment does not destroy the person as the moon does not make a hole in the water. The person does not obstruct realization as a drop of dew does not obstruct the moon in the sky. The depth is the same as the height. In order to investigate the significance of the length and shortness of time, we should consider whether the water is great or small and understand

[03:20]

the sight of the moon in the sky. He is talking about realization, or his word is satori, or enlightenment, same word. So this is his teaching, or at least opinion, is enlightenment, or satori. And he said, when a person attains realization, when a person realizes, attains satori, it is like the moon reflecting on the water. So he doesn't say there is no enlightenment, or there is no satori. He says there is satori, or enlightenment, and yet it is like The moon reflecting on the water.

[04:22]

Moon is, in this case, moon is a symbol of universal life. And water is a symbol of this individual person, which is really small and impermanent. The moon never becomes wet. So enlightenment, as he said or defined in the previous section, enlightenment is the way we practice and all beings come toward us and practice. carry out practice, enlightenment, through this body and mind. Through this. And so, when a person attains realization or enlightenment means when a person practices with that attitude with all beings.

[05:33]

It is like the moon reflecting on the water. So, moon is enlightenment. And the light of moon, moonlight is reflecting on this small water. And yet, the moon never becomes wet. And the water is never destroyed. We don't become, you know, a special person. We are just an ordinary person. And although it is a vast and great light, so when we live together with all beings, all beings come toward us and carry out the practice of enlightenment,

[06:36]

You know, we are really one with all beings. So, we are living out not this individual small life, but we are really living out the vast, boundless, universal life. And so, although it is a vast and great light, It reflects itself on a small amount of water like us. We are a very small amount of water. The whole moon and even the whole sky, the whole universe, reflects on even a drop of dew, or on a blade of grass, or a single tiny drop of water. A drop of dew on a blade of grass is a symbol of impermanence. It's only there in the morning.

[07:39]

When the sun rises, it disappears. So it's a symbol of impermanence. That is our life. We disappear. There are many analogies or symbols we use, like lightning. The universal, eternal life of Moon is reflected on impermanent, small beings like us. So, eternity and permanence, eternity and universality is really reflected on the water, like us, small, impermanent, and egolessness. Enlightenment does not destroy the person.

[08:46]

So even, you know, we practice in that way and we are, you know, enlightened actually, there is no way, you know, this person disappears. We are still an individual person. It's not really different. Still, we live on the basis of bodhisattva vow to live with all beings, try to be helpful, at least not harm other beings. We are really living together with all beings, because we are all interconnected with all beings. So we are not different. We don't become a different person or a formless person. We still have a form. We still have limitations. So the moon does not make a hole in the water.

[09:52]

So we don't disappear. The person does not obstruct realization. As a drop of dew does not obstruct the moon in the sky. So we don't change. We are still small living beings. And we are still selfish. We are still deluded. And yet this selfishness doesn't destroy the moon. still the moon is reflecting on each one of us. So it's not a matter of whether we are a great person or not, but even a smallest, slightest, smallest drop of water, the moon is reflected.

[10:53]

Yes, yes, yes. That is a koan of Sekito Kisen. Someone asked, well, I think we don't have time to talk about it. Do you have something to say? Okay. And in the last two sentences, Dogen Zenji says a very important point. The depth is the same as the height. That means depth of the water. That means depth of our practice. Depth of our life. Depth of our understanding is the same as the height. Height, in this case, height of the moon. That means, you know, the moon reflects on the water, and the depth of the water is the same as the depth or height of the moon.

[12:13]

That means we are not so small. We are really, you know, we as we are. not because we are enlightened or special person, people, but as we are, as ordinary human beings. We have really profound life, same as the moon is so high. And yet, we have to investigate it. In order to investigate the significance of the lens, and shortness of time, we should consider whether the water is great or small, and understand the sight of the moon in the sky. That means we have to deepen our understanding and experience and practice endlessly, deepen, and we should try to

[13:20]

make our mind, our understanding, you know, broader and deeper. So, that means... So, what Dogen Zenji is saying is that since even the moon is reflected on the small water, you know, we are already enlightened, so we don't need to do anything. You know, this is a kind of idea. We read Dogen Zenji's teaching carelessly. Since we are enlightened from the beginning, we don't need to practice. That is not a fat-dogging thing. A fat-dogging thing is when we are on a small amount of water, the formless and boundless universal moon is reflecting.

[14:25]

That's why we have to practice. We cannot avoid practice. We cannot avoid studying. If there's no separation between self and others, then when one person has realization, do all things have realization? That's what the Buddha said. He said he attained the Buddha way, or Buddhahood. All beings in this world, mountains, rivers, and everything attained the way at the same time. Simultaneously. Ask Catherine what that means. Next time. We have 21 minutes.

[15:29]

Maybe better to finish here. If you have questions or comments or whatever you want to say, please. It's time for you to speak. Please. I think everything. I think everything. That means, you know, everything, you know, working together. And so, everything here, everything. And there is no separation, you know, someone who is listening and someone who makes noise or sound.

[16:32]

But sound and hearing is one thing, actually. So there is no one who is listening. No one who is making sound, but we are actually giving together. Same as, you know, flowers and butterflies. When we think with words, you know, flowers and butterflies are two separate things. Or ourselves, or now in this situation, I'm speaking and you are listening. But actually, there's no separation between me and you. So actually I'm listening and you are speaking. Do you understand? So I'm listening. You are talking. Okay? I don't think it's okay. Anything else?

[17:39]

I'm really sorry I didn't have enough time to talk on the whole text of Genjo Koan, but I think it's too ambitious to study the whole writing in one day. So I hope we have another chance to continue to practice or study Genjo Koan sometime in the future. Even though you do not hear it, do not hinder that which hears it. Pardon me? Even though you do not hear it or you do not understand it, do not hinder it. Do not hinder? Hinder. Hears it. Do not obstruct. Is it a koan? Yeah. Yes, could you explain the koan? If sentient beings hear the dharma... If insentient beings hear the dharma... Oh, I've just known this koan for years.

[18:54]

You know, who's hearing it? And he said, if you're a... If you're a... If you're a sentient being, do insentient beings hear the dharma? And he said, if insentient beings didn't hear the dharma, I wouldn't believe you or something. Isn't that true? Ah, probably, or, insentient beings, or non-living beings, whether non-living beings preach Dharma or not. And someone asked, who listens to the preaching of insentient beings? And I forget the story. Do you remember? How did the Master say? I can't remember. Somewhere in there, Rinpoche translated a little bit, even though you do not hear it, do not hinder that which hears it.

[20:01]

So something in us is hearing, even though consciously. I'm sorry, but I don't remember the koan, so I cannot say anything. Please? There was a sentence that I didn't hear you talk about in the fourth part. There are two ways of interpretation of this sentence. One is, you know, Buddha is attaining realization beyond realization.

[21:06]

We go deeper and deeper into realization, like Buddha. And like us, sentient beings, we go deeper and deeper into delusion, even though we are living within enlightenment or realization. That is one understanding. So, we are like, you know, deluded within realization, but still we deeper and deeper into delusion. And Buddha is realized in delusion. And even delusion becomes a part of enlightenment. So they go deeper and deeper into realization. So there are two different ways.

[22:16]

One is how we live, and another is how Buddha teaches or practices. And I think another understanding is who are deluded within delusion is the best person. You understand? Those who are deluded within delusion is the, how can I say, deepest person. That is what I said. I don't know what that means. That means attain realization beyond realization. That is what, you know, Buddhas do. And deluded within delusion is like

[23:18]

expression in Zen, you know, mistake after mistake. One mistake to another mistake. That is the expression of awakening from, you know, how can I say, as the process of awakening. endless process, so there's no goal. And yet, later section he says about, you know, when we are sailing in the ocean on a boat, we only see the ocean is like a circle. And yet, he said, there are many characteristics in the ocean. It's not simply, the ocean is not simply a circle. And yet, as far as we can see with our human eye, it's only seen like a circle.

[24:22]

But we have to understand that the ocean is not simply a round thing. There are many other characteristics. So we have to inquire. are the numberless or limitless, boundless characteristics of ocean. So our insight becomes deeper and deeper or larger and larger. So we have to go beyond the idea or view of ocean is round. we have to make correction. So, when we see the ocean is not simply round or circle, you know, we see the ocean is circle or is kind of delusion or illusion. So, we, how can I say, have the deeper or broader understanding, still that is not final,

[25:28]

We have to keep working on seeing, inquiring what this life looks like. So, you know, in each moment we have a certain view, a certain understanding. And yet, we have to keep deepening and broadening our view. So, in each moment, the view I had perfect wisdom. So we try to go beyond that. That is the meaning of from one mistake to another. And we continue to practice in this way. Could mean in that way. Could understand in that way. Does that mean about everything? Yes.

[26:29]

What happened in Peru? Yes. You know, our understanding and information is always limited. So in order to real reality, we have to have more information, more knowledge, and more broader perspective. So, when we fix our view and claim this is true, then that is dead end. So we have to open our hand and try to investigate the reality more closer. That's the way we keep deepening our understanding and practice. I think... Enlightenment is limitless. If we make some kind of decision, that's it. It limits enlightenment.

[27:31]

But actually, what he is saying is, enlightenment is not some kind of limitless enlightenment. It is not enlightenment. Enlightenment is a process of deepening and broadening our views. Of course. So we keep studying and keep practicing. But even within this limited view and understanding, the boundless moon is reflected. So we should know both sides. Right. Yes. So our enlightenment practice and enlightenment process deepening and cultivating our way of doing things and opening our mind, our heart to all beings. And yet, even though we

[28:33]

cannot develop, you know, so much. Still, you know, already the moon is reflected on even the smallest amount of water. So there's two sides. You know, universal reality or enlightenment is already here. And yet we have to cultivate endlessly. You know. This is a stumbling piece of information. to take this in, and it seems as though the first thing that would come up is the one of enormous gratitude. Do you have a comment? Yeah, we have to be really grateful to everything. So we have to value and appreciate everything, because everything supports us. All beings really support this small being, even though we are so selfish and so small.

[29:41]

So, we really have to appreciate and to be grateful to all beings. And yet, as human beings, we use all beings to satisfy this egocentric, selfish desire and consume nature and destroy nature. I think this is a completely different direction. So, when we really see the reality of interconnectedness with all beings, We cannot be harmful to anyone, at least intentionally. Because of our ignorance we make many mistakes. But when we see that it's harmful, we should stop it. That is wisdom.

[30:43]

So, I think, yeah, gratefulness or gratitude is first. Gratitude toward all beings is the first, most important thing, you know, we have. You want to say? Okay, yes. I really think so. Other comments? I'm sorry. I hope so. I hope we have a chance to meet again. Yeah, almost half.

[31:51]

Thank you very much for listening.

[31:55]

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