I think so. I think so. I think the koans try to say the same thing. Neither living nor dying, or neither alive nor dead. This koan is the master and the student went to a funeral of a certain lay person. And the student hit the cascade and asked the teacher, life or death or living or is this person alive? We are alive or dead. And the master said, I don't, he said, I don't tell. I don't tell. I don't say. I don't say, yeah, I don't say.

[01:07]

Then the student became angry. She didn't teach me the truth. So on their way back to the monastery, the teacher and the student asked the teacher again, tell me. If you don't tell me, I will hit you. And still the teacher said, I don't say it. So the student actually didn't. There's a longer story, but that story, I think, shows the same thing. And this is Dogen's answer to that koan. Section 9. When a person attains realization, it is like the moon reflecting on the water.

[02:09]

The moon never becomes wet. The water is never destroyed. Although it is a vast and great light, it reflects itself on a small amount of water. The whole moon and even the whole sky reflect on even a drop of dew on a blade of grass or a single tiny drop of water. Enlightenment does not destroy the person as the moon does not make a hole in the water. The person does not obstruct realization as a drop of dew does not obstruct the moon in the sky. The depth is the same as the height. In order to investigate the significance of the length and shortness of time, we should consider whether the water is great or small and understand the size of the moon in the sky.

[03:23]

he's talking about realization or his word is satori, or enlightenment, same word. So this is his teaching or at least opinion about what is enlightenment or satori. And he said, when a person attains realization, when a person realizes, attains satori, it is like the moon reflecting on the water. So he doesn't say there's no enlightenment or there's no satori. He said there is satori or enlightenment, and yet it is like the moon reflecting on the water. Moon is, you know, in this case, moon is a symbol of, you know, universal life.

[04:32]

And water is a symbol of this individual person, which is really small and impermanent. The moon never becomes yet. So enlightenment, as she said or defined in the previous section, enlightenment is the way we practice and all beings come toward us and carry out practice, enlightenment through this body and mind. Through this body and mind. And when a person attains realization or enlightenment means when a person practices with that attitude with all beings. It is like the moon reflecting on the water.

[05:38]

So moon is enlightenment. And the light of moonlight is reflecting on this small water. And yet the moon never becomes wet. And the water is never destroyed. That means we didn't change. We are... We don't become, you know, a special ordinary person. And although it is a vast and great light, so when we live together with all beings, all beings come toward us and carry out practice enlightenment, You know, we are really one with all beings.

[06:40]

So we are living out not this individual small life, but we are really living out a vast, boundless, universal life. And so, although it is a vast and great light, it reflects itself on a small amount of water like us. We have a very small amount of water. The whole moon and even the whole sky, the whole universe, reflects on even a drop of dew, or on a blade of grass, or a single tiny drop of water. A drop of dew on a blade of grass is a symbol of impermanence. It's only there in the morning when the sun rises, it disappears. So it's a symbol of impermanence.

[07:44]

That is our life. We disappear. There are many analogies or symbols we use, like lightning. the universal, eternal life of moon is reflected on impermanent small beings like us. So eternity and permanence and eternity and universality is really reflecting on the water, like us, small, impermanent, and eagerness. Enlightenment does not destroy the person.

[08:47]

So even, you know, we practice in that way and we are, you know, enlightened, actually. There's no way, you know, this person disappears. we are still an individual person. It's not really different. Still, we live on the basis of Bodhisattva vow to live with all beings, try to be helpful, at least not harm other beings. We are really living together with all beings because we are all interconnected with all beings. So we are not different. We don't become a different person or a formless person. We still have a form. We still have limitations. So the moon does not make a hole in the water.

[09:52]

So we don't disappear. The person does not obstruct realization. as a drop of dew does not obstruct the moon in the sky. So we don't change. We are still small living beings. And yet we are still selfish. We are still deluded. And yet this selfishness doesn't destroy the moon. Still moon is reflecting on each one of us. So it's not a matter of whether we are a great person or not, but even a smallest, slightest, smallest drop of water, the moon is reflected.

[10:53]

It's the same if we hold the expensive sky, Yes. That is a koan or . Someone asked. Well, I think we don't have time to talk about it. Do you have something to say? OK. And in the last two sentences, Dogen Zenji says a very important point. The depth is the same as the height. That means depth of the water. That means depth of our practice, depth of our life, depth of our understanding is the same as the height.

[11:56]

Height in this case, height of the moon. That means the moon reflects on the water, and the depth of the water is the same as the height of the moon. That means we are not so small. We are really, you know, we as we are. Not because we are enlightened or special person, people, but as we are, as ordinary human beings. We have really profound life, same as the moon is so high. And yet, we have to investigate it. In order to investigate the significance of the length and shortness of time, we should consider whether the water is great or small and understand the size of the moon in the sky.

[13:04]

That means we have to deepen our understanding and experience and practice We should try to make our mind or understanding broader and deeper. So what Dogen Zenji is saying is that since even the moon is reflected on the small water, we are already enlightened, so we don't need to do anything. This is the kind of idea. We read Dogen Zenji's teaching carelessly. Since we are enlightened from beginning, we don't need to practice.

[14:06]

That is not fat-dogging thing. Fat-dogging thing, we are even on a small amount of water, the formless and boundless universal moon is deflecting. That's why we have to practice. We cannot avoid practice. We cannot avoid studying. Please. Is there some separation between self and others? When one person has realization to all things of realization, That's what the Buddha said. He said, you know, he attained the Buddha way or Buddhahood, you know, all beings in this world, you know, mountains, rivers, and everything attained the way at the same time, simultaneously. Ask Catherine about me next time.

[15:20]

Well, we have 21 minutes, maybe, that I have to finish here. And if we have questions or comments or whatever you want to say, please. It's time for you to speak. Please. Everything is about self. Who is it that fears and problems? I think everything. Anything? I think everything. That means, you know, everything, you know, working together. And so, everything here, everything. And there's no... Separation, you know, someone who is listening and someone who makes noise or sound.

[16:32]

But sound and hearing is one thing, actually. So there's no one who is listening, no one who is making sound, but we are actually living together, same as, you know, flowers and butterflies. When we think with words, you know, flowers and butterflies are two separate things. or ourselves, or now in this situation, I'm speaking and you are listening. But actually, there's no separation between me and you. So actually, I'm listening and you are speaking. Do you understand? So I'm listening. You are talking. Okay. I don't think it's okay. Anything else?

[17:33]

I'm really sorry I didn't have enough time to talk on the whole text of Genjo Koan, but I think it's too ambitious to study the whole writing in one day. So I hope we have another chance to continue to practice or study Genjo Koan sometime in the future. Though you do not hear it, do not hinder that which hears it. Pardon me? You do not hear it, or they do not understand it. Do not hinder. Do not hinder. Do not obstruct. Do not hinder. Really? Could you explain, like, why? You're in the dharma, in such a being as living in dharma.

[18:49]

Oh, I've just known this color from Venus, when I put this view in. Probably, or independent beings, or non-living beings. whether non-living beings preach dharma or not. And someone asked, who listened to the preaching of essential beings? And I forget the story. Do you remember? What did Zen Master say? If you could, if... I can't remember.

[19:53]

Somewhere in there, with the mercy, translate a little bit, even though you do not hear it, do not gender that which hears it. So it's not taking us to spirit, but to love, consciously. The question is about that. Well, I'm sorry, but I don't remember the koan, so I cannot say anything. Please? There was a sentence that I didn't hear you talk about in the fourth time. It was the last sentence, there are no such things as such as beyond this, such as beyond this, such as beyond this. Mm-hmm. There are two ways of interpretation of this sentence.

[20:57]

One is, you know, Buddha is attain realization beyond realization. go deeper and deeper into realization, like Buddha. And like us, sentient beings, we go deeper and deeper into delusion, even though we are living within enlightenment or realization. That is one understanding. So we are like, you know, deluded within realization. But still we deeper and deeper into delusion. And Buddha is realized delusion. And even delusion become a part of enlightenment.

[22:04]

they go deeper and deeper into realization. So there are two different ways. One is how we live, and another is how Buddha is, you know, teach or practice. And I think another understanding is who are deluded with delusion is the deepest person. Do you understand? But those who are deluded within delusion is the deepest person. That is what I said. I don't know what that means. That means attain realization beyond realization. That is what, you know, Buddhas do.

[23:13]

And deluded within delusion is like an expression in Zen, you know, mistake after mistake, one mistake to another mistake. That is the expression of awakening from you know, how can I say, as the process of awakening, endless process, so there's no goal. And yet later section he says about, you know, when we are sailing in the ocean on the boat, we only see the ocean is like a circle and yet she said there are many characteristics in ocean it's not simply a ocean it's not simply a circle so and yet as far as we can see with our you know human eye it only see like a circle but we have to understand that

[24:24]

Ocean is not simply a round thing. There are many other characteristics. So we have to inquire the numberless or limitless, boundless characteristic of ocean. So our insight become deeper and deeper or larger and larger. So then, you know, we have to go beyond, you know, the idea or view of ocean is round. We have to make correction. So when we see ocean is not simply round or a circle, you know, we see, you know, the ocean is circle or is kind of delusion or illusion. So we, how can I say, have the deeper or broader understanding. That is not final.

[25:29]

We have to keep working on seeing, inquire what this life is like. So, you know, in each moment we have certain view, certain understanding. And yet we have to keep deepening and broadening our view. So in each moment, the view I had before is illusion. We see this is not perfect wisdom. So we try to go beyond that. That is the meaning of from one mistake to another. And we continue to practice in this way. Could mean in that way. Could understand in that way. Please. Does that mean about everything? Yes. Yes.

[26:30]

The Peruvian? Pardon? What happened in Peru? Yes. You know, our understanding and information is always limited. So in order to be in reality, we have to have more information, more knowledge, and more broader perspective. So when we fix our view and bring it, this is true, then that is dead end. So we have to open our hand and try to investigate the reality more closer. That's the way we keep deepening our understanding and practice, I think. Actually, enlightenment is limited. If we may have some kind of declaration, that would limit the enlightenment.

[27:32]

Actually, you're going to say, hey, not enlightenment is that kind of disease. It's not enlightenment. Enlightenment is. It's a process of deepening and broadening our views. Of course. So we keep studying and keep practicing. But even within this limited view and understanding, the boundless moon is reflected. So we should know both sides, right? Yes, yes. So our enlightenment practice and enlightenment process of deepening and cultivating our real viewing things and opening our mind or our heart to all beings. And yet even though we cannot develop so much, still already the moon is reflected on even the smallest amount of water.

[28:45]

So there's two sides. Universal reality or enlightenment is already here, and yet we have to cultivate endlessly. This is a startling piece of information to take this in. And it seems as though the first thing that would come up is an honest gratitude. Yes. Do you have a comment? Yeah, we have to be very grateful. to everything. So we have to value and appreciate everything, because everything supports us. All beings really support this small being, even though we are so selfish and so small. So we really have to appreciate and to be grateful to all beings.

[29:53]

And yet, as human beings, we use all things to satisfy this ego-centric beneficial desire and consume nature and destroy the nature. I think this is a completely different direction. So when we really see the reality of interconnectedness with all beings, we cannot be harmful to anyone, at least intentionally. Because of our ignorance, we make many mistakes. But when we see that it's harmful, we should stop it. That is wisdom. So I think, yeah, gratitude is first gratitude toward all beings is the most important thing, you know, we have.

[31:06]

You want to say? Okay, yes. I really think so. I hope so. I hope we have chance to meet again. Yeah, almost half. Thank you very much for listening.

[32:04]

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