But we can just try to do it. If we think, you know, oh, I'm doing this way, so I'm doing okay, and now I'm doing with big mind, then it's a small mind. This is really very difficult point. You know, we have to do it, but there's no way we can judge ideally. Well, now I'm doing it. If we measure without how I'm doing, I'm acting, then there's separation between this person and my action, you know. So in that sense, our life or our practice is really a difficult thing. That is what Dogen said in the beginning of Vendôwa. He described all the merit of Zazen and he said, no practitioner can see it.

[01:06]

No practitioner can see it or measure it even with Buddha's wisdom. There is no way to measure the merit of the Zen. So what we can do is just do it. That is the meaning of just do it, just sit, shikantaza. You know, shikantaza doesn't mean we sit without using koan. But shikantaza means really just do it without evaluation, without watching it, without separation between person doing and person watching it. Okay? Can I have one follow-up? Sure, please. In the Zen tradition with teachers, there's a point where a disciple is told by a teacher, you're ready to become a teacher, right? There's a point where there's transmission, right? Is that correct? I mean... Well, in the Soto Zen, you can't really see transmission from Suzuki Roshi or something like that, right?

[02:18]

And then you say you can show your... I'm a little nervous. And what was implied is that someone's able to recognize, yes, you're coming from the right place, and we let you wear robes, and... Right? So there's someone able to measure this. What he said was that he was giving transmission on the basis of people's sort of sincerity of practice. And you could see that people were devoted to the practice. And that was all. He didn't say, OK, now you're finished. Go back and do that. Oh, OK. Something, something. I'm sorry. Yeah, it's different in each tradition. In our tradition, teacher doesn't measure student.

[03:39]

Teacher doesn't measure students or other kind of achievement or accomplishment. We are always incomplete, really. But I think the important point is whether we have, how can I say, by vow to walk toward that direction, the same direction with the teacher. So teacher is also not in the goal yet. Teacher is also still in the process, and student try to follow that same direction. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah, yeah. OK. I think I have to be in a hurry. And in that section, he also kind of made a definition about Buddha and living beings.

[04:59]

He said, those who greatly realize delusion are Buddhas. those who greatly realize delusion are Buddhas. And those who are greatly deluded in realization are living beings. We are, you know, we are living in the realization. That means we are living in the reality of interdependent origination. We are really, you know, living as empty living beings. Still we are deluded because we don't see it. We don't have insight to see that But Buddha is a person who realized that this reality of life, we are living together with all beings and yet we are self-centered. And in the fifth section, he said, when Buddhas are truly Buddhas,

[06:00]

They don't need to perceive that they are themselves Buddhas. However, they are enlightened Buddhas and they continue actualizing Buddha. In seeing color with body and mind and hearing sound with body and mind, although we perceive them intimately, it is not like reflection in a mirror or the moon in water. When one side is illuminated, the other side is dark. According to Dogen, Buddha is not someone who is in the goal. Buddhas are still practicing. Even become Buddha, Buddha have to practice, continue to practice. Dogen Zenji put emphasis on going beyond Buddha, ever going beyond Buddha.

[07:05]

So there's no fixed stage of being Buddha or some we are called Buddhahood. If we stay in one place, that's the end of practice. So we have to always go beyond, go beyond, go beyond. We have to always deepen our practice and understanding. So when Buddhas are truly Buddhas, they don't need to perceive that they are themselves Buddhas. Buddhas are practicing, and also when we are practicing, we don't know, there's no way, and we don't need to perceive that we are Buddhas. In order to perceive or conceive, we have to be an observer. But what we can do is just go ahead, go through, just sit.

[08:08]

Just, you know, when we are sitting, we cannot be an observer. We cannot, you know, measure how good we are sitting, you know, good or bad, or in whatever condition or situation. Sometimes our mind is really busy, really busy. I think you understand, you have experience. And yet we cannot say that is bad or doesn't. And sometimes our mind is really clear and peaceful. And sometimes we have really no thought come up. Still, we cannot say this is good Dazen. That is bad Dazen, this is good Dazen. It's a matter of discrimination. But in whatever situation, we keep sitting and letting go. Sometimes our mind is completely covered with clouds.

[09:10]

We see no blue sky. But sometimes we have completely no clouds and completely blue sky. But either is just a condition. So our purpose of our practice is not eliminate clouds and keep always blue sky. But blue sky or cloudy or rainy or even a storm is just a condition of our life. Or according to Ujjamaa, that's a scenery of our life. And the important point is keep same posture in whatever conditions. Just go through it. Good. So keep doing without measuring, without evaluating how good we are or how bad we are. Just keep this posture and go through difficulty, even in a difficult time, or sometimes we have good time, but in either condition, we just go through it.

[10:21]

That is our practice. That is the most stable and peaceful attitude or posture of our life. So our practice of Dazen teaches us what kind of posture we should maintain to live through good time and hard time. This is not a method to avoid bad time or difficult time and always have good time. But somehow good time and bad time come without, how can I say, as Dogen said, flowers bloom and weeds grow, and flowers fall down, and sometimes we don't have weed. In whatever condition, we keep practice with the same attitude. That is what Tozan said in the last line of Hokyo Zanmai, to attain continuation is essential.

[11:30]

So our practice teaches us the posture toward our life in any condition. So even though, you know, Buddhas don't think they are Buddhas, however, they are enlightened Buddhas and they continue actualizing Buddha. So practice is a real thing. And evaluation or think whether this is a good person or good practice is just a kind of matter of labor. And label and reality is not always together, always the same. You know, even there's a good label, the content, the inside can be, you know, become bad. Because our life is real reality, which is always changing. But label doesn't change. Label, label, label, label.

[12:33]

So Buddha or living beings are just a matter of label. Reality is, you know, practice. And Dogen called practice is Buddha. Reality is practice. Yes. So in seeing color with body and mind, and hearing sound with body and mind, this means when we hear something or we see something and we taste something, this is not only a matter of hearing and seeing, but we use five sense organs to interact with all other beings. We actually live together. But we think, you know, this is a person who tastes it, who hears it, who sees them, who sees objects. But seeing color with body and mind, we don't see color with only our eyes, but we see things with our whole body and mind.

[13:44]

So there's no separation. between eyes and rest of our body and also between ourselves and things within. This is In Dogen's expression, Zenki, that is total interpenetrating function or work. It's not my business, it's not my effort, it's not my action, but somehow, you know, self and others are interacting actually as one thing. In Ryokan's poem, it says, when flowers bloom, butterflies visit, come. And when butterflies come, flowers rise. It's the same thing, at the same time. and yet flowers or butterflies don't know.

[14:46]

But when flowers open and butterflies visit, there's a spring. This spring is a total penetrating function. It's not a matter of individual effort of flower, you know, blooming or butterfly, you know, collecting honey. But when flowers come, everything really, you know, taking place together. It's not a matter of personal effort. That is, you know, reality of our life. And we live out that life, not only, you know, flowers or butterflies, but we are the same. We are part of the nature. There's no separation between self and others, or self and mediated being. And section six, this is one of the most famous

[15:53]

sentences of Dogen Zenji. To practice Buddha Way is to practice the self. To practice the self is to forget the self. To forget the self is to be verified by all things. To be verified by all things is to let the body and mind of the self and body and mind of others drop off. There is a trace of realization that cannot be grasped. We endlessly keep expressing the ungraspable trace of realization. So to practice or to study Buddha Way is to practice or study the self. This self, not this self as a person or individuals, but this person, this body and mind, a collection of cause and conditions.

[16:59]

That means this person lives together with all beings. So to study the self is to study the whole universe, or to study the way all beings are, and to study the way how we can live together with all beings. So this self is not a fixed individual self, but this self is life living together with all beings. So sometimes this self is called selfless self. And to practice the self is to forget the self. So in order to practice or study this self, we have to forget the self. That means we have to see the all beings. We have to be one with all beings.

[18:01]

So we have to forget the self. And to forget the self is to be verified by all things. So all things, all dharmas come toward us and carry out practice enlightenment through this self. It's not my personal effort. Actually, it includes my personal effort. My personal, you know, effort is part of the whole nature. So, you know, this doesn't mean we don't need to do anything intentionally, but we have to intentionally doing practice, study and practice the Dharma and the way all beings are. not only in terms of Buddha's teaching, but to study science or to work with certain things is also the way to study the self and to study the all beings. And to be verified by all things is to let the body and mind of the self and the body and mind of others drop off.

[19:13]

This is one of the most important expressions of Dogen, dropping off body and mind, or shin-jin-datsu-raku. This is, you know, we grasp our body and mind as a self or ego, as myself, with our thought or with our, how can I say, definition or self-identity. We grasp this and cling to this. you know, to have self-identity is okay, you know, it's important. To have ego is also okay. I mean, ego doesn't exist, but to have kind of, you know, self-image as some self-identity, that means I am a Buddhist, I am a Buddhist priest, so I have to practice Zazen.

[20:14]

So, but this should not be clinging. But this should be vow and direction. So dropping off body and mind means open our hand. You know, we usually put ourselves into a kind of a cage as, you know, like a Buddhist or a priest or a teacher. So I have to behave in certain ways and I have to do certain responsibility. That is true. But by thinking, you know, I feel, you know, I'm a Buddhist teacher. I'm a Zazen practitioner, so I practice in this way, I live in that way, and this is the best way. And, you know, people who don't live in this way is, how can I say, strange.

[21:17]

Somehow this way of life is best or highest. So people who don't practice or live in this way are no good. If we define ourselves and we cling to self-identity, we easily start to think in that way. This was my very serious problem. When I was at the Valley of Zendo in Massachusetts, we practiced, as Catherine said, anti-style, so-called anti-style. That means we had a five-day session every month. And we sit 14, one period was 40 minutes, and we sat 14 hours a day for five days. And not many people could sit in that way. But somehow I thought this is the best way of practice.

[22:22]

This is the genuine way of Dogen's teaching. So practice people are doing in different Zen centers are not real practice. They are kind of fake Zen practitioners. We are real ones. I think what I did was not mistake, but this idea was mistake. If we grasp what we are doing is the best thing, or this is only true way, then we are kind of imprisoned within our idea. about our understanding of what is Dharma. So we have to really become free from even our understanding of Buddha Dharma. You know, that is dropping of body and mind. So in whatever situation or whatever idea, not only our stupid, you know, selfish idea, but even our idea or understanding of Buddha Dharma, we have to let go and just sit.

[23:31]

I think that is dropping off body and mind. And this doesn't mean we stop practice. You know, we keep practice. And yet we don't need to think this is the best way or this is a Buddha way. Other people are, you know, not good people. You know, if we think in that way, we are really out of the Dharma, out of the way. So we should practice. We should keep practicing without attachment or clinging to the way we do. We just practice, that's all. Whether other people do in the same way or not, it's okay. It doesn't matter. But we should keep practicing without thinking, this is the way, or this is the best way, or this is the way it should be, or all people should follow. If our practice is sitting five days, that's okay. But we should not think or say, only this is the true way.

[24:38]

Then we become non-Buddhist. This is something to do with the reason why Mahayana Buddhism, Buddhists, put no in front of almost all Buddha's teachings. We should do that. We should practice that. But we should not cling to that. In that way we become, we do, we actually live out Buddha's teaching and yet at the same time we become free from Buddha's teaching. That's the way we can live with people who are not Buddhist. That's the way we can be tolerant and flexible and compassionate to all beings. And so there is a trace of realization, but the trace of realization is not graspable. If we grasp, you know, this is that realization, then we often have muck.

[25:40]

So we have to open our hand and keep practice. That is, we endlessly keep expressing the ungraspable trace of realization. Without grasping, we keep practicing. You know, it's easy to say, but difficult to do. Really difficult. But that's the way, you know, Dogen Zenji are just to do, to practice. And section 7. It's time to stop. Where would you like to take a break? Well, we finished at 4.30. 4.30, so let's see. Why don't we have a break right now and start again? Yeah. Okay? Thank you.

[26:42]

I'm sorry, you know, there are so many things to talk about. I can read this section in two different ways. Seeing the color of the body and mind and hearing sounds of the body and mind, although we perceive them intimately, they are not like reflections in a mirror or the running water. When one side is eliminated, the other side is stuck. That second sentence, is that continuation of... Could you speak to that? Because my literal mind sees when one side is manifested, the other side isn't manifested.

[27:49]

Oh, I think. Okay. This means... This means, you know, we see a color and hear sound and taste and smell with our nose. But I think he's saying this is not an action of this part. we don't only see with our eyes, but we see with our whole body and mind. And also, this whole body and mind, this self, and the sound or color or shape or taste or smell are not two different things, as I said.

[28:50]

So when we call, you know, This, you know, things happening at night right here, when we see, try to express what's going on at this moment, you know, we say, you know, I'm tasting, I'm smelling, I'm hearing, I'm listening, or I'm seeing. But when we say, I am doing these things, this I or self is already one with all beings. So when we say self, all beings are already included with this self. So all things or myriad dharmas disappear. Only self. And then we say all beings are myriad dharmas.

[29:52]

You know, self is part of myriad dharma. There's no separation. All dharmas is not 99% of all beings, except this being. But this body and mind is really a part of all beings, or all dharmas. So when we say all dharmas, this self is already included. Do you understand? So, when we say this self, all beings are already there, so you know, there's no all beings. When we talk, we say all beings, the self is already there, so there's no self. So when we take this thing, other part, when we say, you know, this and other, our self and others,

[30:57]

One is in darkness. That means we cannot see it. It's disappeared because it's already included. That is my understanding. When we illuminate this self, all other beings already include this being. And when we illuminate all beings or even one being outside of ourselves, this self is already included in it. So this self is in the dark. That means we can see it. Does it make sense? That is my understanding of this sentence. sense organs, here are objects of sense organs, and there's some kind of interaction between sense organs and objects of sense organs.

[32:00]

That is our usual way, like something in front of a mirror is reflected on the mirror, and mirror and this object are different things, but there's some connection or relationship. But in the case of our life, our life includes the object. So actually, when we say the self, there is no object. When we say object, there is no self. I think that is the meaning of it. Yes, yes, exactly. Okay. Okay. Section 7. We have a long way to go, but we don't have much time. Section 7. When a person first seeks after the Dharma, the person becomes far from the boundary of the Dharma.

[33:08]

When the Dharma is correctly transmitted to the self, the person is immediately an original person. If a person riding in a boat watches the coast, the person mistakenly sees the coast as moving. If the person watches the coast, then the person notices that the boat is moving. Similarly, when we conceive our body and mind in a confused way and grasp all things with discriminating mind, we mistakenly think that the self-nature of our own mind is permanent. When we intimately practice and return right here, it is clear that all things have no fixed self. You know, as he said in the section four, enlightenment, delusion and enlightenment is only within relationship with self and others.

[34:23]

So he continued to discuss about relationship with self and others. And in the fifth section, he said there's no such two separate things, self and all beings. or self and environment, or this world. This world includes the self and self includes the world. So when first we see after the Dharma, we are far from the Dharma. Because even though these are not two things, but when we seek after, we are not there. We feel we are not there, even though we are already there. It's a kind of illusion. We are living right in the dharma, right in the way.

[35:25]

We are born and live and die within the dharma. within the way. We never get out of the way. And yet we think, we feel we are out of the way, so we seek after. We want to find the way. We try to seek the way. And this is necessary. We have to seek after the way, otherwise, you know, because we lose sight of the way. Even though we are inside of the way, we lose sight of the way. So we have to seek after the way. And yet even when we are seeking after the way, we are already in the way. It's a kind of, of course, contradiction. But still, you know, when we are looking for the way, you know, we lose the way. And when we are looking for dharma, we lose the dharma. Even though we are in the dharma, we are midst of dharma, and we are really inside of the way, we're still far from the way and far from the dharma.

[36:37]

And yet I think this process is really necessary. You know, we have to seek the way. That means we have to make mistake. Otherwise that making mistake to seek the way is only the way we can find the way. So important point is to see that this is a mistake. I mean, almost always when we start to practice or try to find a way, we have a problem or question or some difficulties in our lives. So we need to find the answer to the question or the way to get out of problems. or troubles or difficulties, that is usually our motivation to start to practice or seek some kind of way or teaching or religion. But, you know, this motivation itself is a problem in the case of Buddhadharma because this motivation still comes out of our ego.

[37:51]

And yet without this, you know, motivation, there's no way to start to practice. So somehow we have to practice with this motivation to seek after the way. And at that time we lose the way, and yet we are still in the way. It's really complicated things. And so somehow after we started to practice, we have to fix this contradiction. That means we really go beyond our motivation. That means, that is what he is saying here. We have to really understand that when we are seeking after the Dharma, we are get out of the Dharma. We are far from the boundary of Dharma. So in order to really be intimate or be one with Dharma, we have to let go of even our motivation to seek the way.

[38:56]

That is, as I said before, that is according in Dogen Zenji's expression, just do. Just sit means we should not cling to even our motivation, and it's really difficult or almost impossible. But that's the way Dogen Zenji asked us to practice. it's really difficult, so it's not possible to do it, you know, one moment. So we need to go through kind of a struggle. Without this motivation, we cannot practice. But as far as practice, keep practice with this motivation, our practice is far from Dharma. So what can we do? This is really a problem, really an essential problem for us who are practicing according to Dogen Zenji or Mahayana teaching.

[40:03]

And in my case, I had really faced this problem or difficulty when I went back to Japan from Valley Zendo. Until then, I was young, I was healthy, I was strong, so I could practice. As I mentioned before, it's kind of a very strong practice. And because of that, I felt I'm a good practitioner. I am practicing in the most genuine way, according to Dogen. But the reason why I went back to Japan was I had a physical problem. I had a pain on my neck, shoulder, elbow and knee because of too much physical work. I was 31 or 32 years old. And I have so much pain, so I couldn't sit, I couldn't sit so much as I did after, you know, past 10 years.

[41:15]

And I was alone. I had no sangha. I had no place to live. I had no job, no money. You know, I had nothing. And, you know, Dogen Zenji said, we should practice without any expectation, any gaining mind. And Sakyong said, gaining is delusion, losing is enlightenment. And also he said, zazen is good for nothing. And I knew those teachings from the very beginning, because when I was 17, I read Uchamurashi's book, and since then I practiced in that way. And I studied Dogen at university, so I knew all of those theories or teachings. And I thought I was really, you know, 100% devoted myself into that way.

[42:19]

And yet, you know, after 10 or 15 years, you know, I couldn't practice in that way. Then I had a problem, you know. Then now I'm not a good practitioner. I couldn't sit, I couldn't practice in that way. When I found that reality, I also found that my practice when I was young and healthy is not a real practice. I could just practice in that way because I was young and I was strong. And I actually, I rely on that condition. It's just a condition. Only young and strong person could do that. So even though I didn't expect any, you know, reward, still, you know, I would rely on that practice and that understanding and teaching.

[43:24]

So, you know, when I, you know, become physically weak, you know, I couldn't practice in that way and I was in trouble. I felt that, you know, I was really rely on that teaching of, you know, the Zen is good for nothing. And yet that means zazen was good for something for me. I was really on that teaching. That's why I became, you know, I was a program. If zazen is really good for nothing, you know, even I don't practice zazen, there must be no problem. But I felt my life was meaningful because I could practice in that way, practice without expectation. And I found that that is just kind of a, how can I say, another egocentric trip.

[44:35]

egocentric way of life. Only certain kind of person in certain condition can do that. So it's not a practice for all people. And I And when I practiced in that way, I really tried to put all my energy into sitting and working for Dharma. Still, I found that I had some competition with other people in the Sangha, and also competition within myself. I want to be a good student, good practitioner. I want to sit more than others. I want to study more. That kind of attitude is still seeking after something, really seek after something and compete with others and with ourselves.

[45:46]

Who I am and who I want to be is separate, so I try to make, you know, eliminate the gap. So I was always seeking after something, actually, even though I understand nothing is good for nothing, and we should practice without gaining mind. And when I couldn't practice in that way, and I had no sangha and no practice place, and my body was half broken, I really found, still, you know, still somehow I sit on the cushion in my apartment, not my apartment. I could stay in my brother's apartment. because he came to the United States for several months. I could stay in my brother's apartment and I did takuhatsu to support myself.

[46:49]

Even though, you know, I had that, you know, pain and difficulty. And since no one there, I really don't need to practice. I don't need to sit. But somehow, something, you know, made me to sit on a cushion. So there's no competition, no necessity, no merit actually. But somehow, when I sat on the cushion with a half-broken body where no one else was there, I really felt, you know, this is really just sitting. So I don't need to be a good practitioner of Dogen Zenji or a good disciple of Uchiyama Rose. But, you know, I'm just a young man. I don't need to really compete with who I want to be.

[47:51]

So just who I am, that's enough. And still, just who I am is on the cushion. sitting in this posture. And at that time I felt, how can I say, not felt, but I found a very deep peacefulness. I don't need to seek after anything anymore. I don't need, you know, sangha. I don't need to practice with other people. I don't need to be a good practitioner. I don't need to, you know, money or fame or whatever. But just be there without those, you know, things. Worry about those things. And just be right now, right here with this person who I am. That's enough. That's the most, I think, peaceful way of being. Just living. I felt, you know, that was the first time I felt that was the fact, you know, Dogen Zen stopped.

[48:59]

That was the fact, you know, Sakyoshi said, Dogen is good for nothing, and that's enough. So after that I stopped, you know, competing with others and competing with myself. I had to accept, you know, the situation or condition of myself. And that's okay. That's enough. I think that is when I really feel I'm already in the Dharma. I don't need to struggle to gain it or to keep it as I am a good practitioner. So I think that is the first time I could really open my hand. I think this teaching, when a person first seeks after the Dharma, the person becomes far from the boundary of the Dharma, is really important. And yet, as I said, it's really impossible to practice without seeking the Dharma.

[50:01]

So we have to seek after. And so there are certain, how can I say, struggles. with our motivation and the teaching. And there's certain time we have to really face with this problem and we should go through it. And even we understand that, we really see it. I didn't change, I'm just I am. That is, you know, when the Dharma is correctly transmitted to the self, the person is immediately an original person. Original person is not just something different, but being just an original person, just who I am. So that experience doesn't make me a great person or enlightened person.

[51:08]

I'm just I am. That's all, and that's enough. I think that's a very important and yet difficult point in our practice. And he is using an analogy of a boat sailing in the ocean. I think Dogen Zenji had this actual experience of sailing in the ocean when he went to China. As he said, when we see only outside, we don't see we ourselves are moving or changing or selfless or egoless. But when we only see outside, we see, you know, we are not change. We are subject. We are fixed. We are kind of out of the world and observing the world. But when we really see inside,

[52:11]

Dogen Zenji used the expression in Fukanzazengi, turn the light inward and illuminate yourself. Then we really see, we are changing, we are moving. That's the way all beings come to others and carry out practice enlightenment through this body and mind. And in Section 9, he talks about life and death, or arising and perishing. Firewood becomes ash. Ash cannot turn back into firewood again. However, we should not view ash as after and firewood as before. We should know that firewood dwells in the dharma position of firewood and it has its own before and after.

[53:24]

Although there is before and after, past and future are cut off. ash stayed at the position of ash, and it had its own before and after. As firewood never becomes firewood again after it is burned and becomes ash. After a person dies, there is no return to living. However, in Buddha Dharma, It is a never-changing tradition not to say that life becomes death. Therefore, we call it no arising. It is the laid-down way of Buddha's turning the Dharma wheel not to say that death becomes life. Therefore, we call it no perishing. Life is a position at one time. Death is also a position at one time.

[54:28]

For instance, this is like winter and spring. We don't think that winter becomes spring, and we don't say that spring becomes summer. So this is about life and death, arising and perishing, and also time. you know, common understanding or concept about time is time flows from past to the present and from present to the future. But Dogen Zenji's understanding about time is a little bit different. Time is, how can I say, you know, actually in a sense there's no time. Time is not existence.

[55:29]

Time doesn't exist. He said time and being are one thing. Time and existence are one thing. And we, in a sense, we create time. You know, we think there are three times, past, present, and future. But actually future, past doesn't exist because it's already gone. And the future doesn't exist because it's yet not coming. It's not reality yet. And then only present time is reality. But present time has no, how can I say, length. If there's even a slightest length, we can separate, cut it into two, and still past and future. So present moment has no rings, actually zero.

[56:34]

And this zero or actually emptiness, this zero is only reality. It's a very strange thing, but I think it's really true. And this moment, has no so no length and yet this moment uh so this moment is when in in dogon's analogy firewood is firewood and when this is firewood ash is still in the future so it's not reality only firewood and firewood used to be a tree And yet tree is already gone. So tree is not reality. Firewood is only reality. Then it become ash, you know. Firewood is already gone. So firewood is not reality anymore.

[57:36]

Ash is just ash. And yet within this reality of this moment, you know, whole past, from beginning to beginning, and the full future till the endless end is reflected on this moment which is zero or empty. It's really kind of, you know, wondrous thing. But that is reality of all beings and reality of our life, according to Dogen. You know, so reality is only present moment. So when we are living, there's no death. You know, living is just living. And living has no length. It's just really moment by moment. And we cannot measure the moment because it's zero.

[58:37]

So it's really wonderful thing and seeing all beings arising and perishing moment by moment. That means we actually die moment by moment and be born moment by moment. So we are always fresh, always new. That's why in Buddhism, especially Mahayana Buddhism, there's no arising and no perishing. only this moment. So his conclusion about life and death, arising and perishing, is no arising and no perishing, no life, no death. Well, life and death are one thing. When we are living, this is not reality. We never see death. We never experience death, because experience is in this side, in living. So we never experience dying or death.

[59:46]

And once we are dead, you know, living is not reality anymore. It's gone. So life and death never encounter each other, never meet each other. And yet life and death really always get together. Really, you know, how can I say, one thing, life and death are arising and perishing are really one thing. That is, I think, what he is saying here. So life and death are not dichotomy. But when we are living, we 100% live. And when we die, we are dead, 100% dead. So we don't need to worry about dying. And still we worry about it. And we have fear because that is a part of our life.

[60:47]

Because we can imagine how painful it is. Of course, when someone is dying, you know, we have sadness, pain and sadness. So we can imagine how sad and how painful I died. But it's still just an imagination. Take care of it. Even though it's not reality, it's just imagination still, the fact that we have ability to have such imagination is reality. So we have to take care of it. And the way we can take care of it is to really see the reality of moment by moment and reality of there's no arising and no perishing. That is the way Zen or Mahayana Buddhists see the reality. Emptiness, actually.

[61:49]

When we see emptiness, there's nothing arise, nothing perish. Only a cause and condition. Only cause and condition, moment by moment. So we gain nothing, we lose nothing. That is the basis of our peacefulness, or our, how can I say, peacefulness of our mind. Of course, as a feeling or emotion, we have fear and sadness. And yet, as reality, there's nothing arise, nothing perish. We don't, we lose anything. We gain anything, we gain nothing, but we lose nothing. It's just a matter of things, you know, is flowing. So we have to flow as things are flowing. That is, I think, the point or ground of peacefulness in our mind.

[62:54]

How to pacify our mind is go back to that reality. And in our thinking or feeling or emotion, we have always fear or anxiety because future is always uncertain. And we can think so many different possibilities, and not always the best thing occurs. So we have fear. It's a very natural thing.

[63:26]

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