Measure it. But we can just try to do it. If we think, you know, oh, I'm doing this way, so I'm doing okay, now I'm doing with big mind, then it's a small mind. This is really very difficult point. You know, we have to do it, but there's no way we can judge, I did it, or now I'm doing it. If we measure or observe how I'm doing, I'm acting, then there's separation between this person and my action. So, in that sense, our life, or our practice, is really a difficult thing. That is what Dogen said, you know, beginning of Vendova, he described all the merits of Zazen, and he said, no practitioner can see it.

[01:05]

No practitioner can see it or measure it. Even with Buddha's wisdom, there is no way to measure the merits of Zazen. So what we can do is just do it. That is the meaning of just do it, just see it, Shikantaza. Shikantada doesn't mean we sit without using koan. But shikantada means really just do it without evaluation, without watching it, without separation between person doing and person watching it. Okay? Can I ask one follow-up question? Sure, sure, please. In the Zen tradition with teachers, there's a point where a teacher or a disciple It's called, like, teacher, you're ready to become a teacher, right? There's a point where there's transmission. Right? Is that correct? I mean... First traditional Zen?

[02:10]

Well, in a Soto Zen, you know, you can't receive transmission from Suzuki Roshi or something like that, right? And then you say you're a teacher. And what was implied is that someone's able to recognize, yes, you're coming from the right place, and we're going to let you wear robes. Right? So there's someone able to measure this. What he said was that he was getting transmission on the basis of people's sincerity of practice. were devoted to the practice. And that was all. That's what it was. It didn't say, OK, now you're finished. Go out and do it. Oh, OK. And some people wanted to go out and felt ready to go out and do it.

[03:11]

And some people stayed inside. So transmission doesn't mean you suddenly go out in the future. It doesn't mean automatically. In our tradition. I'm sorry. Yeah, it's different in each tradition. In our tradition, teacher doesn't measure student. Teacher doesn't measure students or other kind of achievement or accomplishment. You know, we are always incomplete. really. But I think the important point is whether we have, you know, how can I say, giving by vow to walk towards that direction, in the same direction with the teacher.

[04:16]

So the teacher is also not in the goal yet. the teacher is also still in the process and the student tries to follow that same direction. Does it make sense? Well, I think I have to be in a hurry. And in that section he also kind of made a definition about Buddha and living beings. He said, those who greatly realize delusion are Buddhas. Those who greatly realize delusion are Buddhas. And those who are greatly deluded in realization are living beings. We are, you know, we are living in the realization. That means we are living in the reality of interdependent origination.

[05:23]

We are really, you know, living as empty living beings. Still we are deluded because we don't see it. We don't have insight to see that. But Buddha is a person who realized, you know, that this, you know, reality of life. We are living together with all beings and yet we are self-centered. And in the fifth section, he said, when Buddhas are truly Buddhas, they don't need to perceive that they are themselves Buddhas. However, they are enlightened Buddhas, and they continue actualizing Buddha. In seeing color with body and mind, and hearing sound with body and mind, although we perceive them intimately, it is not like reflection in a mirror or the moon in water.

[06:31]

When one side is illuminated, the other side is dark. According to Dogen, Buddha is not someone who is in the goal. But Buddhas are still practicing. Even become Buddha, Buddha have to practice, continue to practice. Dogen Zenji put emphasis on going beyond Buddha. ever going beyond Buddha. So there's no fixed stage of being Buddha or somewhere called Buddhahood. If we stay in one place, that's the end of practice. So we have to always go beyond, go beyond, go beyond. We have to always deepen our practice and understanding. So, When Buddhas are truly Buddhas, they don't need to perceive that they are themselves Buddhas.

[07:40]

When Buddhas are practicing, and also when we are practicing, we don't know, there's no way, and we don't need to perceive that we are Buddhas. In order to perceive or conceive, we have to be an observer. But what we can do is just go ahead, go through, just sit. Just, you know, when we are sitting, we cannot be an observer. We cannot, you know, measure how good we are sitting. You know, good or bad, or in whatever condition or situation, sometimes our mind is really busy. Really busy. I think you understand, you have experience. And yet we cannot say that is bad Dazen. And sometimes our mind is really clear and peaceful. And sometimes we have really no thought come up.

[08:44]

Still we cannot say this is good Dazen. That is bad Dazen, this is good Dazen. It's a matter of, you know, discrimination. But in whatever situation we keep sitting and letting go. You know, sometimes our mind is like, you know, completely covered with clouds. We see no blue sky, but sometimes we have completely no clouds and completely, you know, blue sky. But either is just a condition. So, the purpose of our practice is not to eliminate clouds and keep always blue sky. But blue sky, or cloudy, or rainy, or even a storm, is just a condition of our life. Or, according to Uchamara, it's not a scenery of our life.

[09:45]

And the important point is to keep the same posture in whatever conditions. Just go through it. Good. So, keep doing without measuring, without evaluation, without evaluating how good we are or how bad we are. Just keep this posture and go through difficulty, even in a difficult time or sometimes we have good time, but in either condition, we just go through it. That is, you know, our practice. That is the most stable and peaceful attitude or posture of our life. So our practice of Dazen teaches us what kind of posture we should maintain to live through good time and hard time. This is not a method to avoid bad time or difficult time and always have good time.

[10:50]

but somehow good time and bad time come without, how can I say, as Dogen said, flowers bloom and weeds grow, and flowers fall down, and sometimes we don't have weeds. In whatever condition, we keep practicing with the same attitude. That is what Prajna said in the last line of Hokyo Zanmai, to attain continuation is essential. So, our practice teaches us the posture toward our life in any condition. So, even though, you know, Buddhas don't think they are Buddhas, however, they are enlightened Buddhas, and they continue actualizing Buddha.

[11:54]

So, practice is a real thing. And evaluation, or think whether this is a good person or good practice, is just a matter of label. Label and reality are not always together, always the same. Even if there is a good label, the content, the insight can become bad. Because our life is a real reality which is always changing. But a label doesn't change. Label, label, label, label. So, Buddha or living beings are just a matter of label. Reality is, you know, practice. And Dogen called practice is Buddha. Reality is practice.

[12:57]

Yes. So, in seeing color with body and mind, and hearing sound with body and mind, this means When we hear something, or we see something, and we taste something, this is not only a matter of hearing and seeing, but we use five sense organs to interact with all other beings. We actually live together, but we think, you know, this is a person who tastes it, who hears it, who see them, who see objects. But in seeing color with body and mind, we don't see color with only our eyes, but we see things with our whole body and mind. So, there is no separation between eyes and the rest of our body, and also between ourselves and things we see.

[13:58]

This is, in Dogen's expression, Zenki, that is, total interpenetrating function or work. It's not my business, it's not my effort, it's not my action, but somehow, you know, self and others are interacting, actually, as one thing. You know, in Ryokan's poem, it says, when flowers bloom, you know, butterflies visit, come. And when butterflies come, the flowers bloom. It's the same thing. I mean, same time, at the same time. And yet, flowers or butterflies don't know. But when flowers open, and butterflies, you know, visit, there is a spring. This spring is a total penetrating function.

[15:01]

It's not a matter of individual effort of flower blooming or butterfly collecting honey. But when flowers come, everything really takes place together. It's not a matter of personal effort. That is the reality of our life, and we live out that life. Not only flowers or butterflies, but we are the same. We are part of nature. There is no separation between self and others, or self and myriad beings. And section six, This is one of the most famous sentences of Dogen Zenji. To practice Buddha way is to practice the self.

[16:02]

To practice the self is to forget the self. To forget the self is to be verified by all things. To be verified by all things is to let the body and mind of the self and body and mind of others drop off. There is a trace of realization that cannot be grasped. We endlessly keep expressing the ungraspable trace of realization. So, to practice or to study Buddha way is to practice or study the Self, this Self. not this self as a person or individuals, but this person, this body and mind are a collection of cause and conditions. That means this person lives together with all beings. So to study the self is to study the whole universe, or to study the way all beings are, and to study the way how we can live together with all beings.

[17:17]

So this self is not a fixed individual self, but this self is a life living together with all beings. So sometimes this self is called selfless self. And to practice the self is to forget the self. In order to practice or study this self, we have to forget the self. That means, you know, we have to see the all beings. We have to be one with all beings. So we have to forget the self. And to forget the self is to be verified by all things. So all things, all dharmas come towards us and carry out practice enlightenment through this self.

[18:20]

It's not my personal effort. Actually, it includes my personal effort. My personal effort is part of the whole nature. So, you know, this doesn't mean we don't need to do anything intentionally, but we have to intentionally doing practice, study and practice the Dharma and the way all beings are, not only in terms of Buddha's teaching, but to, you know, study science or to work with, you know, certain things. It's also the way to study the self and to study the all beings. And, to be verified by all things is to let the body and mind of the self and the body and mind of others drop off. This is one of the most important expressions of Dogen. Dropping off body and mind, or shin-jin-datsuraku.

[19:22]

This is, you know, we grasp our body and mind as a self, or ego, as myself. with our thought or with our, how can I say, definition or self-identity. We grasp this and cling to this. You know, to have self-identity is okay, you know, it's important. And to have ego is also okay. I mean, ego doesn't exist, have kind of a self-image, as some self-identity. That means, I am a Buddhist. I am a Buddhist priest. So I have to practice Zazen. But this should not be clinging. But this should be a vow and direction.

[20:23]

So, dropping off body and mind means open our hand. You know, we usually put ourselves into a kind of a cage, as you know, like a Buddhist, or a priest, or a teacher, so I have to behave in certain ways, and I have to do certain responsibility. That is true, but by thinking, you know, I feel, you know, I'm a Buddhist teacher, I'm a Zazen practitioner, so I practice in this way, I live in that way, and this is the best way. And, you know, people who don't live in this way is, how can I say, is strange. Somehow, this way of life is best or highest, so people who don't practice or live in this way are no good. If we define ourselves and we cling to self-identity, we easily start to think in that way.

[21:37]

This was my very serious problem. When I was at Valley Zen Do in Massachusetts, We practice, as Catherine said, anti-style, so-called anti-style. That means we sit, we have a five-day session every month and we sit 14, one period was 14 minutes and we sat, you know, 14 hours a day for five days and not many people could sit in that way. But somehow I thought this is the best way of practice. This is the genuine way of Dogen's teaching. So practice people are doing in different Zen centers are not real practice. They are kind of fake Zen practitioners. We are real ones.

[22:40]

I think what I did was not a mistake, but this idea was a mistake. If we grasp what we are doing is the best thing, or this is the only true way, then we are kind of imprisoned within our idea about our understanding of what is Dharma. So we have to really become free from it, our understanding of Buddhadharma. That is dropping off body and mind. So, in whatever situation or whatever idea, not only a stupid selfish idea, but even our idea or understanding of Buddhadharma, we have to let go and just sit. I think that is dropping off body and mind, And this doesn't mean we stop practice. You know, we keep practice.

[23:44]

And yet, we don't need to think this is the best way, or this is the Buddha way. Other people are, you know, not good people. You know, if we think in that way, we are really out of the Dharma, out of the way. So we should practice. We should keep practicing without attachment or clinging to the way we do. We just practice, that's all. Whether other people do in the same way or not, it's okay. It doesn't matter. But we should keep practice without thinking, this is Buddha way, or this is the best way, or this is the way it should be, or all people should follow. If our practice is sitting five days, that's OK. But we should not think or say only this is the true way. Then we become non-Buddhist. This is something to do with the reason why Mahayana Buddhism, Buddhists, put no in front of almost all Buddha's teachings.

[24:53]

We should do that. We should practice that. But we should not cling to that. In that way we become, we do, we actually live out Buddha's teachings and yet at the same time we become free from Buddha's teachings. That's the way we can live with people who are not Buddhist. That's the way we can be, you know, tolerant and flexible and compassionate to all beings. And, so, there is a trace of realization. But the trace of realization is not graspable. If we grasp, you know, this is a realization, then we often have a mark. So we have to open our hand and keep practice. That is, we endlessly keep expressing the ungraspable trace of realization. Without grasping, we keep practicing. You know.

[25:55]

It's easy to say, but difficult to do. Really difficult. But that's the way, you know, Dogen Zenji urges us to do, to practice. And section 7. It's time to stop. Just before 3 o'clock now, where would you like to take a break? Well, we finished at 4.30. 4.30, so let's see. Why don't we have a break right now and start? Okay? Yeah. Okay? Thank you. I'm sorry, you know, there are so many things to talk about. Please take a break.

[26:57]

Come back. In two different ways, in seeing color with body and mind, and hearing sounds with body and mind, although we perceive them intimately, it is not like reflections in a mirror, or the moon in water. When one side is illuminated, the other side is dark. That second sentence, is that continuation of... Could you speak to that? My literal mind sees when one side is manifested, the other side isn't manifested. Oh, I think. Okay. This means... This means, you know, we see colors, and hear sounds, and taste, and smell with our nose, but I think he's saying this is not an action of this part.

[28:26]

You know, we don't only see with our eyes, but we see with our whole body and mind. And also, this whole body and mind, this self, and the sound, or color, or shape, or taste, or smell, are not two different things. as I said. So, when we call, you know, this, you know, things happening right now, right here, when we see, try to express what's going on at this moment, you know, we say, you know, I'm tasting, I'm smelling, I'm hearing, I'm listening, I'm seeing, But when we say, I am doing these things, you know, this I, or self, is already one with all beings.

[29:32]

So, when we say self, all beings are already included with this self. So, all things, or myriad dharmas, disappear. Only self. And when we say all beings, or myriad dharmas, you know, self is part of myriad dharmas. There is no separation. All dharmas is not 99% of all beings, except this being. But this body and mind is really a part of all beings, or all dharmas. So, when we say all dharmas, this self is already included. You understand? So, you know, when we say this self, all beings are already there. So, you know,

[30:34]

there's no all beings. When we talk, we say all beings, the self is already there, so there's no self. So, when we take this thing, other path, when we say, you know, this and other, our self and others, one is in darkness, that means we cannot see it, it's disappeared because it's already included. That is my understanding. When we eliminate this self, all other beings are already included in this being. And when we eliminate all beings, or even one being, outside of our self, this self is already included in it. So, this self is in the dark, that means we can see it.

[31:37]

Does it make sense? That is my understanding of this sentence. Sense organs, here are objects of sense organs, and there is some kind of interaction between sense organs and objects of sense organs. That is our usual way, like something in front of mirror is reflected on the mirror. And mirror and this object is different thing. But there is some connection or relationship. But in the case of our life, our life includes the object. So, actually, when we say the self, there is no object. When we say object, there is no self. I think that is the meaning of it. It's like merging. Yes, yes, exactly. Okay? Okay.

[32:44]

Section 7. We have a long way to go. But we don't have much time. Section 7. When a person first seeks after the Dharma, the person becomes far from the boundary of the Dharma. When the Dharma is correctly transmitted to the self, the person is immediately an original person. If a person riding in a boat watches the coast, the person mistakenly sees the coast as moving, If the person watches the coast, then the person notices that the boat is moving. Similarly, when we conceive our body and mind in a confused way and grasp all things with discriminating mind, we mistakenly think that the self-nature of our own mind is permanent.

[33:55]

When we intimately practice and return right here, it is clear that all things have no fixed self. As he said in Section 4, delusion and enlightenment is only within relationship with self and others. So he continued to discuss about relationship with self and others. And in the fifth section, he said there is no such two separate things, self and all beings, or self and environment, or this world. This world includes the self, and self includes world. So, first, we seek after the Dharma.

[34:58]

We are far from the Dharma. Because even though these are not two things, but when we seek after, we are not there. We feel we are not there. even though we are already there. It's a kind of illusion. You know, we are living right in the Dharma, right in the way. We are born and live and die within the Dharma, within the way. We never get out of the way. And yet, we think, we feel we are out of the way, so we seek after, we want to find the way. we try to seek the way. And this is necessary. We have to seek after the way. Otherwise, you know, because we lose sight of the way, even though we are inside of the way, we lose sight of the way.

[36:01]

So we have to seek after the way. And yet, even when we are seeking after the way, we are already in the way. It's a kind of, of course, contradiction. But still, you know, when we are looking for the way, you know, we lose the way. And when we are looking for Dharma, we lose the Dharma. Even though we are in the Dharma, we are in the midst of Dharma, and we are really inside of the way, we are still far from the way, and far from the Dharma. And yet, I think this process is really necessary. We have to seek the way. That means we have to make mistakes. Otherwise, making mistakes to seek the way is the only way we can find the way. So, the important point is to see that this is a mistake.

[37:05]

almost always when we start to practice or try to find a way, we have a problem or a question or some difficulties in our lives. So we need to find the answer to the question or the way to get out of problems or troubles or difficulties. That is usually our motivation to start to practice or seek some kind of way or teaching or religion. But, you know, this motivation itself is a problem in the case of Buddhadharma. Because this motivation still comes out of our ego. And yet, without this motivation, there's no way to start to practice. So somehow we have to practice with this motivation to seek after the way. And at that time, we lose the way.

[38:08]

And yet, we are still in the way. It's really complicated things. And so, somehow, after we started to practice, we have to fix this contradiction. That means, we really go beyond our motivation. That means, that is what he is saying here. We have to really understand that when we are seeking after the Dharma, we get out of the Dharma. We are far from the boundary of Dharma. So, in order to really be intimate or be one with Dharma, we have to let go of even our motivation to seek the way. That is, as I said before, that is according to Dogen Zenji's expression, Just sit means we should not cling to even our motivation, and it's really difficult, or almost impossible.

[39:18]

But that's the way Dogen Zenji asked us to practice. It's really difficult, so it's not possible to do it in one moment, so we need to go through a kind of a struggle. You know, without this motivation, we cannot practice. But as far as, you know, practice, keep practice with this motivation, you know, our practice is far from Dharma. So, what can we do? This is really a problem, really an essential problem for us who are practicing according to Dogen Zenji or Mahayana teachings. And, in my case, I had really faced this problem or difficulty when I went back to Japan from Valezendo.

[40:21]

Until then, you know, I was young, I was healthy, I was strong, so, you know, I could practice, you know, As I mentioned before, it's kind of a very strong practice. And because of that, I felt, you know, I'm a good practitioner. I am practicing in the most genuine way, according to Dogen. But the reason why I went back to Japan was I had a physical problem. I had a pain on my neck, shoulder, elbow, and knee because of too much physical work. I was 31 or 32 years old and I had so much pain so I couldn't sit. I couldn't sit so much as I did in the past 10 years. I was alone. I had no sangha, I had no place to live, I had no job, no money, you know, I had nothing.

[41:27]

And, you know, Togen Zenji said we should practice without any expectation, in gaining mind. And Sakya said gaining is delusion, losing is enlightenment. Also, he said, Zazen is good for nothing. And I knew those teachings from the very beginning. Because, you know, from when I was 17, I read Uchiyama Roshi's book. And since then, I've practiced in that way. And I studied Dogen at university. So I knew all of those theories or teachings. And I thought I was really, you know, 100% devoted myself into that way. And yet, after 10 or 15 years, I couldn't practice in that way. Then I had a problem. Now I'm not a good practitioner.

[42:33]

I couldn't sit, I couldn't practice in that way. When I found that reality, I also found that My practice when I was young and healthy is not a real practice. I could just practice in that way because I was young and I was strong. And I actually rely on that condition. It's just a condition. Only young and strong person could do that. So, even though I didn't expect any reward, still I would rely on that practice and that understanding and teaching. So, when I became physically weak, I couldn't practice in that way, and I was in trouble.

[43:39]

I felt that I was really relying on that teaching of, you know, Zazen is good for nothing. And yet, that means Zazen was good for something for me. I was really relying on that teaching. That's why I became, you know, I was a problem. Zazen is really good for nothing. Even if I don't practice Zazen, there must be no problem. But I felt my life was meaningful because I could practice in that way. Practice without expectation. And I found that that is just kind of a... How can I say? Another, you know, egocentric trip, egocentric way of life. Only certain kind of person in certain condition can do that.

[44:47]

So it's not a practice for all people. And when I practice in that way, I really try to put all my energy into sitting and working dharma, still I found that I had some competition with other people in the sangha and also competition within myself. I want to be a good student, good practitioner. I want to, you know, sit more than others or I want to study more. That kind of attitude is still seeking after something, really seek after something and compete with others and with ourselves. A person who I am and who I want to be is separate, so I try to make, you know,

[45:53]

I can eliminate the gap. So I was always seeking after something, actually, even though I understand Dazen is good for nothing, and we should practice without gaining mind. And then I couldn't practice in that way, and I had no Sangha, and no practice place, and my body was half broken, I really found... still, you know, still somehow I sit on the cushion in my apartment. Not my apartment. I could stay in my brother's apartment. Because he went to or came to the United States for several months, I could stay in my brother's apartment and I did takuhatsu to support myself. Even though, you know, I had pain and difficulty, and since no one was there, I really didn't need to practice.

[47:04]

I didn't need to sit. But somehow, something made me sit on a cushion. So there was no competition, no necessity. no merit, actually. But somehow, when I sat on the cushion, with a half-broken body, where no one else was there, I really felt, you know, this is real just sitting. So, I don't need to be a good practitioner of Dogen Zenji, or a good disciple of Uchiyama Roshi, but, you know, I'm just I am. I don't need to really compete with who I want to be. So, just who I am, that's enough. And still, just who I am is on a cushion, sitting in this posture. And at that time I felt, how can I say, not felt, but I found a very deep peacefulness.

[48:15]

I don't need to seek after anything anymore. I don't need sangha. I don't need to practice with other people. I don't need to be a good practitioner. I don't need money or fame or whatever. But just be there without those things. Worry about those things. And just be right now, right here with this person who I am. That's enough. I think, a peaceful way of being, just living. I felt, you know, that was the first time I felt that was the fact Dogen Zenji taught. That was the fact Saki Yoshi said that Zen is good for nothing, and that's enough. So after that I stopped competing with others and compete with myself. I had to accept the situation or condition of myself. And that's okay.

[49:18]

That's enough. I think that is when I really feel I'm already in the Dharma. I don't need to struggle to gain it or to keep it. as, you know, I am a good practitioner. So, you know, I think that is the first time I could really open my hand. So, I think this, you know, teaching, when a person first seeks after the Dharma, the person becomes far from the boundary of the Dharma, is really important. And yet, As I said, it's really impossible to practice without seeking the Dharma. So we have to seek after. And so there's certain, you know, how can I say, struggle with our motivation and the teaching. And there's, how can I say, certain time we have to really face with this problem.

[50:26]

and we should go through it. And even, you know, we understand that, we really see it, you know, I didn't change, I'm just I am. So... That is, you know, when the Dharma is correctly transmitted to the self, the person is immediately an original person. Original person is not something different, but being just an original person, just who I am. So, you know, that experience doesn't make me, you know, a great person or enlightened person. I'm just I am. That's all. And that's enough. I think that's a very important and yet difficult point in our practice. He is using an analogy of a boat sailing in the ocean.

[51:30]

I think Dogen Zenji had this actual experience of sailing in the ocean when he went to China. As he said, when we see only outside, we don't see ourselves are moving, or changing, or selfless, or egoless. But when we only see outside, we see, you know, we are not changed, we are subject, we are fixed, we are kind of out of the world, and observing the world. But when we really see inside, Rogen Zenji used the expression in Fukanza Zengi, turn the light inward and eliminate the self. Then we really see, we are changing, we are moving. That's the way, you know, all beings come to others and carry out practice enlightenment through this body and mind.

[52:37]

And in Section 9, he talks about life and death, or arising and perishing. Firewood becomes ash. Ash cannot turn back into firewood again. However, we should not view ash as after and firewood as before. We should know that firewood dwells in the Dharma position of firewood and it has its own before and after. Although there is before and after, past and future are cut off. Ash stays at the position of ash and it has its own before and after. As firewood never becomes firewood again after it is burned and becomes ash.

[53:49]

After a person dies, there is no return to living. However, in Buddhadharma, It is a never-changing tradition not to say that life becomes death. Therefore, we call it no arising. It is the laid-down way of Buddha's turning the Dharma wheel not to say that death becomes life. Therefore, we call it no perishing. Life is a position at one time. Death is also a position at one time. For instance, this is like winter and spring. We don't think that winter becomes spring, and we don't say that spring becomes summer. So this is about life and death, arising and perishing, and also time. common understanding or concept about time.

[54:55]

Time flows from past to the present and from present to the future. But Dogen Zenji's understanding about time is a little bit different. Time is, how can I say, you know, actually, in a sense, there is no time. Time is not existence. Time doesn't exist. He said, time and being are one thing. Time and existence are one thing. And we, in a sense, we create time. You know, we think there are three times. past, present, and future. But actually future, past doesn't exist because it's already gone.

[55:57]

And the future doesn't exist because it's yet not coming. It's not reality yet. And then only present time is reality. But, you know, present time has no, how can I say, length. If there's even a slightest length, we can separate, cut it into two, and still, you know, past and future. So present moment has no length, actually zero. And this zero is actually emptiness. This zero is only reality. It's a really strange thing. But I think it's really true. And this moment has no length. And yet this moment... So this moment is... In Dogen's analogy, firewood is firewood.

[57:05]

And when this is firewood, ash is still in the future. So it's not reality. Only firewood. And firewood used to be a tree. And yet tree is already gone. So tree is not reality. Firewood is only reality. When it becomes ash, you know, firewood is already gone. So firewood is not reality anymore. Ash is just ash. And yet within this reality of this moment, you know, whole past, from beginningless beginning and the full future to the endless end is reflected on this moment which is zero or empty. It's really kind of, you know, a wondrous thing. But that is the reality of all beings and the reality of our life according to Dogen.

[58:09]

You know, so Reality is only present moment. So when we are living, there is no death. You know. Living is just living. And living has no length. It's just really moment by moment. And we cannot measure the moment because it's zero. So it's really wonderful thing. And seeing all beings are arising and perishing moment by moment. That means we actually die moment by moment and be born moment by moment. So we are always fresh, always new. That's why in Buddhism, especially Mahayana Buddhism, it says there is no arising and no perishing. Only this moment.

[59:13]

So, his conclusion about life and death, arising and perishing, is no arising and no perishing, no life, no death. Life and death are one thing. When we are living, this is not reality. We never see death. We never experience death. Because experience is in this side, in living. So, we never experience dying. or death. And once we are dead, you know, living is not reality anymore. It's gone. So, life and death never encounter each other, never meet each other. And yet, life and death really always get together. Really, you know, how can I say? One thing, life and death, arising and perishing are really one thing.

[60:14]

That is, I think, what he is saying here. So life and death are not a dichotomy. But when we are living, we 100% live. We are dead, 100% dead. So we don't need to worry about dying. And still we worry about it. And we have fear. Because that is a part of our life. Because we can imagine how painful it is. Of course, when someone is dying, you know, we have sadness, pain and sadness. So we can imagine how sad and how painful I died. But it's still just an imagination. So we have to take care of it. Even though it's not reality, it's just an imagination, still the fact that we have the ability to have such imagination is reality.

[61:27]

So we have to take care of it. And the way we can take care of it is to really see the reality of moment by moment and reality of there is no arising and no perishing. That is the way, you know, Zen or Mahayana Buddhist see the reality. Emptiness, actually. When we see emptiness, there is nothing arise, nothing perish. Only a cause and condition. Only cause and condition at moment by moment. So, we gain nothing, we lose nothing. That is the basis of our peacefulness, or our, how can I say, peacefulness of our mind. Of course, as a feeling or emotion, we have fear and sadness. And yet, as reality, there is nothing arise, nothing perish. We don't lose anything. We gain anything. We gain nothing, but we lose nothing.

[62:30]

It's just a matter of things flowing. So we have to flow as things are flowing. That is, I think, the point or ground of peacefulness in our mind. How to pacify our mind is to go back to that reality. And, you know, in our thinking or feeling or emotion, we have always, always, you know, fear or anxiety because, you know, future is always uncertain. And we have, we can think, you know, so many different possibilities. And not always, you know, best thing, you know, occurs. So we have fear. It's very, you know, natural thing.

[63:25]

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