Avaliho, avaliho, avali, avali, avaliho. Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare, A'udhu Billahi Minash Shaitanir Rajeem. Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem. Allah is the Greatest, [...]

[01:15]

Allahumma salli alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu. Bismillah ar-Rahman ar-Rahim. Allahumma salli alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu. Bismillah ar-Rahman ar-Rahim. Allahumma salli alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu. A'udhu Billahi Minash Shaitanir Rajeem Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem. Aum. Aum. Brother David of Mount Savior, introducing the last session of the symposium.

[02:42]

Last session of a meeting of this kind, if there is such a thing, is usually given to winding things up. Now, we definitely do not want to wind things up and wrap them up, by no means. I think that would betray the spirit of this whole symposium. We don't even want to talk about everything that happened here, not even here and now, because there are certain things that need not be talked about and should not be talked about. They just ought to be experienced. So what do we want to do? I think we want to get certain things into focus, into also an intellectual focus, simply for clarity. Pull things together, that's an entirely different thing from wrapping things up. Sister Jose wishes to speak. Not pulling it all together, but just a few reflections that I have might start out of my job next year.

[03:55]

Next year I'll be over in Montana on Fort Peck Indian Reservation, and I've been hired by the tribe. Interestingly, before I even got there, I got this job through my students. I was just going to go over to Montana to visit one of my friends down on the Crow Reservation, the one who made that triple bead work that I had this morning. And the students called ahead and told a couple of people on their reservation that they should check out with me because I was willing to work with the people and live with the people with no conveniences. That was kind of the thing. They've never been able to get anybody to go stay with them because people can't seem to manage without plumbing and electricity and things very well these days. And they have none to any extent on this reservation. So before they even got in touch with me they said, well now what kind of a person is this going to be? A social person or a spirit person? And they were looking for spirit person.

[04:58]

They've had a lot of social person. And so I'm just kind of trying to bring this back now as to what we've been doing here and what our emphasis is. Well, when I met with the tribal council, they said there are three things we would like for you to do if you stay with us a year. We'd like for all of your time to be here and then you can see if it would be helpful to stay on. My first work was teach us to pray. Will you share with us out of your experience of spirit life? Now, I just think that that's terribly significant when the first thought might be bread, plumbing, electricity, education, you know, everything that is truly just crying for attention there. And their first call was to come and be of the spirit with us. You know, help us. They've had a brush with Christianity, but also with other denominations, and have somehow found they don't want to let it all go.

[06:01]

They can't go anywhere with it. Now this is, when I say they, this is about 9,000 people spread out in a very large area, little clusters of maybe 18 shacks. here, 10 there, and then a little more substantial housing along the highway, wherever there are highways. It seems things are kept up a little better. But as you move back into the country, that's pretty much the situation. The second thing they were eager for me to help them do is to try to help the young people make transitions. The young people on our reservation graduate from high school with perhaps a fifth grade level education. And they flunk out of college and university as fast as they hit it. They can't manage anything. They've had such a poor readiness for this. So the whole thing was, is there anything you can do in a year with our people to get them ready to meet college life, University life, white upper middle class life, white intellectual society.

[07:03]

We know we're just as smart, but we don't have the equipment. Now this is where they have a terrific fatality rate among their youth. They go off to school and just can't swing it. And the whole sense of failure seems to keep climaxing after high school. So this whole area of help me make a transition, help our young people make that shift from an isolated, going nowhere kind of life for them personally. to a possible readying life to become their own man and their own woman. And the third job they asked me if I would consider would be, would you go from door to door and talk to our people and see if there's anything you can help us do to believe in the future? Is there any hope? Can you bring anything to us so that we don't have to just feel we might as well sit down and die.

[08:06]

Now I say this because I think it has real significance. Personally, I really believe we're responsible for the whole world. You know, my world, my world with you, my world in this room, the world that I move out to, the world across this country, the mess of the institutions, but the mess of myself. And so I would just kind of say that perspective and I'd like to just place those three things in front of you in terms of all we've been considering here of East and West and likenesses and differences and theological perspicacity. and genuine feeling in terms of our own emotional, traditional and possible future experience in the world of the deeply spiritual dimension of our being and the development and the expansion of that. There might be a real disorder right here in this hunk that is being reflected

[09:11]

that is being cyclically engendered, that goes right on as a source of the wrong kind of thing in society. And so with that, I think what we talked about yesterday that struck me is this real call to consider self-renewing reality. I can be good for a day. sometimes if it's, if I'm alone and there aren't too many forces. I think all of us know that we are truly good, occasionally at least. But is, I really wonder if we give genuine attention to what we need to renew within ourselves, within our situation in terms of atmosphere. Now I'm talking about all of us in the work a date, live a date, go about your business world. See, what is there in you this morning? when your wife and your child have gone west and you're going to Europe and you're not going to see them for a month. What is it now that calls you to live the reality you've got and to hold them in full love in your heart for life and yet not be withdrawing out of this world that you're given to meet?

[10:23]

See, what is it you call on? What do you turn to? How do you lift it up? What are your resurrection powers? How do you become really good news moment by moment? What is your understanding of what is for life right now? You know, in word and speech and look. So I would just kind of call to that. I'm about finished, brother. And really ask you to look at that in terms of what we've heard there. The power of self-renewing. If it's not in us, it's not going to be in our society or our systems or wherever we touch. It just won't be there. And then with this, basically your position toward life in others. You know, sometimes we only discover our own life when we recover from our own un-life. And it's mostly people who call us back to life, I think. Mostly people touch us for resurrection, I think. They un-bruise us from our own bruises and other people's. They look with us, not with the look that kills, but with the look that lives.

[11:29]

And I would really call you to look for this in your word, in your look, in the very way you stand with another person, in the way you hear and won't answer, or the way you answer and then never hear. I would really call for this kind of attention. for these fruits, which really I think we've plumbed deep and reached high, but I see nowhere that it can go if it doesn't go so profoundly in us that it has got to go out. And then with it I really must say I do not think we are real. Just we're not real if we're not with little people. If we don't get next to and love and live with the nobodies in this world who are just like us, We're going to walk around in such an idiotic, hypocritical, pharisaical, stupid plane. There is so much real, real, real pain. that we will walk around with our engendered artificialities if we don't love the little people who have nothing and nobody to lean on.

[12:38]

Seems to me that the real power of the East and West meeting here is that if I can survive and grow and be excited and beyond through this kind of a meeting, my God, I ought to be so much more able for people to lean on me. when I get beyond here and to lean more generously in trust on other people. And then with it, my final pitch goes back to what Father said the other day. I don't think this meeting is successful if we're not more foolish. I just think if anybody in here is saner when he walks out this door, when she walks out this door, it's been a colossal failure. I really feel that. I think we need a real genuine love and lunatic fringe in this world. And that's what I'd leave you with. Father Callistos has asked for the word next. Last Wednesday, the Roshi asked me how I saw the moment of this conference, and then I was not prepared to answer him, but I will try to answer him now.

[13:57]

And what I have to say must, I'm afraid, appear to many of you as a hard saying, but I must say it. And as in St. Paul's words, I speak as a fool. If you are going to have a real dialogue, you've got to start from where you and other people are. It's no good starting by telling people to change. Then you're not having a dialogue. You're preaching at them, and that's a monologue. I have been very disturbed at this conference by most of the statements from my fellow Christians because I have not felt that they presented the Christian faith as I believe in it. And as I see it, the tradition of the saints and holy men, martyrs and ascetics of the church have believed it.

[14:58]

They have believed that Jesus Christ is the one and unique incarnation of God. And if you take that away from Christianity, I think you have taken Christianity away. The Roshi spoke in terms that to me were extremely interesting about how he saw Christ, but that is not my Christ. I can see the way in which, in the Zen tradition and in Hinduism, Christ can be incorporated. But he is being incorporated, as far as I can see, without the Zen or Hindu tradition changing anything in its own framework. But if we accept that, we Christians, we are changing something that has been in our tradition as I see it from the very beginning.

[16:06]

And I cannot do that. People have spoken about, Alan Watts used the word emotional just now. Other people have talked in conversations that I've heard about the imperialism and aggression of Christianity. If you use those words, you are already begging the question. You are using emotionally loaded words. You are assuming the Christians have been wrong and they must change. And that is not a real dialogue. I do not therefore say that a meeting of this kind is of no value. To me it has been immensely valuable and I have learnt not only about the traditions of others but I have learnt in a new way about my own tradition. But it seems to me that this encounter that we are engaged in is supremely difficult and we must not

[17:12]

blind ourselves to the difficulties that exist. Thank you very much, Father, and I'm sure we all appreciate your words and also your courage, because it's not easy to say a thing like that without in any way trying to answer. This would neither be the place nor the possibility, time-wise. But I would just like to point out that we are all striving for the same thing, of which I'm sure you are aware. And that if tradition means anything, it means life. And that life implies that one changes. And there is a changing which does not imply that one has been wrong. One must continue to change, not from something that's wrong to something that's right, but that's just life, to constantly change. And we stand at different points in this change.

[18:14]

And of course, not every change is life. Some change is disease. And only time will show and we cannot solve this, the present moment. Professor Thomas Berry wishes to speak. First, as the moment when I must express my gratitude for you, for listening so patiently if the number of times I've been up here. And as regards to the question, I think that it is dominantly a question that we should have considered more extensively, but it's a very important question and it is the question of evil.

[19:15]

And Setsaka Roshi wishes to speak to that point and to some extent against the background of the Christian view of evil. So in two minutes, the Christian view of evil. Obviously it's a very sketchy thing, but hopefully it will mean something first. There are three things in context. The Christian world is a world of persons. Primary, absolute, the world of persons. Second thing is, in the Christian concept of evil, it must not in any way violate the goodness of God, so that God must in no manner or there must be no absolute principle, or God must in no manner be given responsibility for the evil. The third thing is, in the Christian world, is that it's a world of tragic, historical, redemptive drama.

[20:23]

Now those are three things to keep in mind as I make these following just a big kind of a list, but very brief. Evil in the Christian order of things derives from the sin of man. This brings about a three-fold alienation. An alienation, first of all, from God. Secondly, an alienation of man within himself, thirdly, an alienation of man with other men. Now, this evil is not subject to human remedy alone. It is remedied by the Son of God, Jesus, who came to suffer for the redemption of man. And the Christian, by faith in Christ and his redemptive suffering and participation in that suffering, attains the reconciliation of all the alienations, whereby he realizes his union with God,

[21:41]

his union within himself and his union with others. And the instrumentality of this redemption is the very evil that results from the original sin, that is the suffering. And in and through the suffering, man is transformed and becomes a part of this cosmic, historical, tragic, dramatical, triumphant sacrifice. Zen Master Suzuki Roshi with Kiyokanda as translator. The time to say goodbye is coming near. If we are really one, we are not really departing from each other.

[22:50]

We have been using the word togetherness, and if we are really truly together, there is no such a thing as departure. That is the one way. It is beyond comparison. It is not a comparable way. I repeat, that is the one way. And when it is the one way, it is truly beautiful. It is beautiful because we are... Roshi embraces someone near him. As many pointed out, as soon as we start conceptualizing or trying to express by words, then it is not that total experience itself anymore.

[23:54]

I'm always happy because I always feel I am manifesting the one way That is all. Suppose if Sister Hosea says that I have to follow your path, then that is the beginning of confliction because Paya has his way. It is important that religious leaders and practitioners would listen to others Because if you exclude even a hair of an ant from your love, then I cannot think that it is the love of Christ. As I mentioned, I think that the great religions have its basis,

[25:03]

universal and total experience of love as its foundation. But when you make religious tenets and doctrines out of it, that is the beginning of violence of religion. As I said, the reason I came here is because I believe that the prior of this monastery thought that in the past we have done that violence, And he wanted to see if there is any way that we can, any way to reflect upon and see the future on that violence and ending of that violence. Father Francis pointed out the humility.

[26:10]

I'm grateful for expressing that particular spirituality. I discussed this with Professor Berry, and we talked about the objectified religion, the evil and the violence of the objectified religions, doctrinally conceptualized religions. As I was pointed out by Father, What I'm saying about Christianity is certainly from my own position. And from my own, I'm sorry he used the word experience, from my own experience, I cannot believe the limit of the love of Christianity, and I cannot believe that the love of Christianity should not be universal.

[27:22]

I believe in chanting and the feeling that you are walking, the walking along the one way. What did you do when I was dancing? Sister Jose, what did you do if he falls down while dancing? Yeah, thank you. That's all there is to religion. at the moment of having this total experience, for example in dancing, and manifesting truly this totality through dancing, when she sees a person suffering, she would go to help.

[28:27]

And that is not really a break of that total experience. If one can manifest oneself in totality, it is a beautiful thing. Because truth is one, in that totality there is no total experience, there is no I and you and God, the realm of God or the realm of Buddha. The human relationship appears not through breaking the total experience, but as a part of it. It does not mean that the total unity or totality is thoroughly transcendental. Because you have that basis of experience, and because you have that experience of love,

[29:33]

Absolute love, that is the reason that she can see that one is suffering. We cannot have religion, and without religion we cannot have life. The religion and love which have that experience, universal experience, is absolute. I wanted to talk about sin. I believe many of you know the origin of sin. Sin appears when you are away or you are not aware of the universal love, that totality. I was told Jesus said that man is a man of sin. Without religious training and discipline, one just accepts whatever comes in front of you subjectively and objectively.

[30:46]

I understand the term Man is sinful as this, as follows. If we have our foundation, our consciousness, which is away from the total experience, our consciousness would not experience the totality, then we will stay as sinful forever. And with that understanding, I believe Christ said, one is sinful. Therefore, without realizing the absolute love of Christ, we cannot be sinless. Realization comes through comes through having faith in Jesus Christ.

[31:51]

I imagine through the history of Christian religion, there was a time that one would teach that this is the one way, this is the one way as a method of teaching. That one way is not necessarily the relative way. When the teacher imposes upon that way as the absolute, then that teacher would be giving a violence to one's own religion and to the people. And if we, therefore, if we can manifest ourselves in that totality, in absolute love, then that is the true religion. I do not know Christianity.

[32:57]

I do not know any tenets of Christianity. But I feel I have a power to believe in Christ, therefore I feel I'm a Christian. I'm grateful if you have understood part of what I have mentioned about the totality, total experience, love, and about sin. I, since I do not understand English, the point you have made is not really clear. I'd like to have a truly opportunity to talk and listen to him so that I would have understanding and I'm not saying I don't want to hear what others are saying.

[34:02]

When we are walking, one way, all is included in that. In this action, I am expressing the one way which is mine, therefore I do not have to seek anything else. If in that action you know that it is the expression of totality and the ultimate expression of totality, then you do not have to reject others. It is not the attitude which is rejecting others, but accepting others, or accepting the all. Therefore, the human relation takes place, which takes place in a subjective or objective way, but still as an expression of the totality, even in such a case as dancing and someone falling down.

[35:19]

I'd like to thank you for the invitation. I'd like to... I appreciate your patience and as I started with the footnote, I have made many, many mistakes in my translation. I really hope I did express the part of what he said at least. Thank you very much. Up here, Relayat Khan has asked for the word next. As we proceed from the serenity of this meeting to our various horizons, we shall probably be able to see in better perspective the miracle that has converged us

[36:24]

here into an experience of communion and joy and we shall realize possibly that that which has been happening to us in a very special way here is indeed something that is happening to each one of us in perhaps less intensive way in our ordinary walks of life because we are, especially those who are representatives of various religions, we are exposed to the influences coming from other traditions and the time has come when there seems to be a very strong wind blowing from the various directions of space And we seem to feel that the time has come to open the doors of our various traditions in order to find accommodation for these further reaches of the mind. And therefore, as Father Panagos said, we are called upon to possibly to renew our traditions by including in them the seed of the experience that has been

[37:39]

gathered together during days like these of an encounter of spirits with one another. We have and therefore we shall have to learn how to die to our isms and resurrect to that point of convergence that R.P. Thayer de Chardin speaks about, she called the point omega, the point of convergence of not just our minds but our souls. We have had the courage to face some very real problems like for example the problem of pain and of evil and we know that it's part of this dying and it bears within it the promise of resurrection. And here I would like to invoke the words of Al-Halaj whom I quoted during my lecture when he said, he has offered me to, he means God, has offered me to drink in the cup from which he drinks.

[38:46]

How could I refuse? God tests those whom he loves the most Is it possible that he has shown me by that the greatest of his gifts, the grace of his love? And this might help us to understand the meaning of suffering, which seems to be so very important in understanding the meaning of religion. When we look upon our lives with the perspective of those who have found detachment, It is possible that we shall realize how wonderful it is that things didn't happen the way we had planned them. And therefore we might understand that maybe in every suffering there was something that we had to learn. And therefore we should not consider suffering as something which happened fortuitously, but as an expression of the divine hand of God.

[39:53]

God bless you. Thank you. What you said, how wonderful that things did not happen the way we planned them, could be the motto of the whole conference. Stephen Durkee has a word. I was exactly to the point that the sister made, really. And my thing is just two things. She said that she went to visit these people, and they asked her about that praying thing. And I spent a lot of time with these people, and they taught me a lot about that praying thing. And they always said that when people were going to leave some place, that you should ask our Maker, our Father, that the way they journeyed, that they'd have safety, because I know we're all going to be on that highway or in the air or

[40:59]

However, we're all on a path, we're all going someplace. So I think, I'm not wanting to be the one who does it, but I think that before we end the meeting, we should have a prayer for that kind of safety for all travelers, and that they might get where they're going in a good way, have safety in front of them, behind them, to either side of them, above them, below them. They might find friends wherever they're going. And they always say, the people I know, they always say, I ask that in the name of Jesus. Amen. Brother Peter, Guest Master of Mount Savior. I don't wish to say that there is departure, but there is return. And Saint Benedict asked his monks to maintain rooms for the guests who are never locking in a monastery. And it's hard to say you're all welcome because I think probably you already know that.

[42:03]

That what you have brought to us monks is a very generous gift. Thank you for coming. And goodbye to you in the name of the community. O Lord, remember us when you went to your King of old. We'll never understand our Lord's spirit, what it meant since the King of old. Blessed are those on the street, O Lord, for they shall be loved by Him.

[43:09]

Blessed are those on the street, O Lord, for they shall be loved by Him. Blessed are you among earthers, and the church of the saints, for it shall ever be true. Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy. Blessed are the people of God, for they shall see God. Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be God's sons of God.

[44:19]

Blessed I trust in Satan, the worst executioner, For this is the King of Heaven. No, no, [...] For he taught me all his breaking and ending.

[45:04]

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