I said we would try to rethink some of the principles of our monastic life, which in thinking of the fundamental principles of the Christian life, which of course govern our whole life, I'd like now to consider more specifically the problems, if I may say so, of the monastic life, beginning with that of poverty. And to show you something of the complexity of the problems, perhaps I may tell you a story of my first experience in India, when I first went out in 1955. a gala monastery, we weren't able to stay there eventually, in a village outside Bangalore, South India, and I was with an Indian monk who was somewhat westernized in his habits, and we wanted simply to start a Benedictine monastery, with the normal Benedictine rule, and with the ordinary Benedictine office, and

[01:14]

But in general, we wanted to have the kind of simplicity of poverty with which I was accustomed, for instance, at my monastery at Greenwich. We thought we'd have a sort of basic simplicity of poverty. And I, in my innocence, imagined that there was a sort of general level which one could adopt. And so we bought this small bungalow and we put up some cells. And in my cell I had it just very much like the cell I have upstairs. As we all have, simply a bed, a wooden plane, wooden bed. and a plain wooden chair, a table, and something for some clothes, and I don't think there was anything else. And I thought this was basic quality and simplicity. And then I began to get to know some of the young men in this village. There were many young students at the University of Bangalore.

[02:19]

and they began coming up they spoke English of course then many of them became very friendly and we got to know them and they took us to their homes and then I began to discover that there were not more than half a dozen houses in all that village where such things as tables and chairs and beds were known at all What to us was the thought of basic poverty must have been rather luxurious innovation from the West. and the ordinary Indian household who simply, and this isn't only the very poor, these families, for instance this, my very particular friend who's kept very close touch with me ever since, he actually saw me off when I came from Madras this time, he's a Brahmin family and they have a rather wealth of food, his brother has a very good geometric engineering factory, they're well-to-do Brahmin family.

[03:23]

And now, they have outside a sort of parlor, and there was a table, and some chairs, and there was even a radio, and there they would receive me. But inside the house, where the women preside, the old mother, and I'm never allowed to go, There I know, as he tells me, and I know from the others, they keep simply the old Indian custom. You sit on the floor on very, very low sort of stools they sometimes have, but almost on the floor. Then you eat with your hands, and when you sleep you simply put a mat down. That is the norm in India. or rather it has been. Now Western customs are coming in, especially among Christians and Catholics in Kerala, the majority probably now have beds and many have tables and chairs, but still these are innovations and as I say they represent really a certain standard of luxury.

[04:28]

Well that was really quite a shock to me and it did make me realize how difficult this problem of poverty is, because poverty still counts for very much in India. I think it's one of the great problems of the Church. You see, we've come over in the wake of the colonial powers, first of all the Portuguese, who had a very great influence, and Almost invariably, we've introduced the customs of the West, so that in all our seminaries and in all our religious houses, our priests and religious live by Western standards. But you know, to Indian standards, this is very luxurious. And I know it has a very unfortunate effect on themselves. They often comment on it, They don't disapprove, exactly. I mean, they appreciate our schools and colleges, but to see Greece living as we do, and having the large meals which we do, and in the midst, of course, of very, very great poverty, people living absolutely on the, call it the,

[05:44]

where they use the poverty line, just on survival level, it does create rather strong feelings. And what is really serious is this, that there is practically no witness to the poverty of the gospel in India. There are exceptions, and I'm here to say it principally among monks. I think that we monks have had a conscience about it. The other orders, of course, you can understand, they are there on some practical mission, as most of them have schools, colleges and so on. And then you fall into, you know, having a Western education, and the whole standard tends to rise, and so it's very natural. But you can see the problem, that the Church appears as a great organization, and it does not appear as a place of holiness, nor does it appear as a place of prayer. They really don't know that we pray at all, for the most part.

[06:47]

They only see our priests in schools and out in the streets and so on. And even if they did penetrate in, I don't know that they'd be deeply impressed, first of all, with the litany of us who are outside of it. So you see, what an unfortunate impression the Church is making on these very, very religious people, because you see that behind all this modernization in India, there is this immense religious spirit and this immense demonstration for holiness. almost every Hindu, certainly everywhere you go, among Hindus, you find people with this desire for holiness, and with this generation for holiness, and respect for the holy man. And in their eyes, a holy man must be a poor man. And a poor man is a man who goes about with very simple clothing, as I mentioned instantly, mark of it, and we particularly, we wear this hand-woven cotton, it's very cheap, and of course Mahatma Gandhi gave it a great gold, it was a sign of being one of the villagers, you see, you're using their weavings.

[08:01]

And so this habit, this simplicity of life, we would normally go barefoot, as we do in the monastery, and to understand outside also, and he will just have his rice meal, and he will never normally eat meat. I mean, that to a Hindu is very sceptical. They cannot understand how a man who is really devoted to God can eat meat. There's something in it, you know, I think in India, in their primates and so on, meat isn't conducive to a fixed religious life. They have a theory, you know, certain foods are what they call sattvic, the three gunas, and sattva is the guna of purity, of serenity of mind. and of a puritive heart, you could say, and they think of certain foods or things, they agree with this way of life.

[09:09]

So that is an absolute rule. The ordinary Sannyasi will not eat meat, fish or eggs, except when he is very old, he will drink milk and he will have rice. and vegetables. Well, you see, these are externals, but they count for an immense amount in India. They are, in India, signs of a holy life. And if you accept these conditions, they treat you with the greatest respect. That has been a great discovery for us when we came to Going along we quite changed our plans and we tried to adapt ourselves in every way to the Hindu custom, sitting on the floor, eating with our hands, sleeping on mats, drinking with coffee, going barefoot, and leading the kind of ascetic life to which they've been accustomed for thousands of years. And immediately you fall into their perspective. They understand what we're doing and they have an almost unlimited respect for it.

[10:11]

Most Hindus today will not live these lives and they won't have the desire very much to do so, but they have this great respect for it. So you see, I feel that the monks in India, as I say, it's been rather promising that almost all nuns who have started it, and that has been rather recent, have been making stay on these lines, some in even greater sophistication than we have, so that We are, by falling in with their customs, we are making a witness to the poverty of Christ. And I think, surely for us as monks, that is something very fundamental. We can't eliminate that from our lives, right from the very beginning. To be a monk was to make this renunciation of the world and to live in poverty. Well now, that obviously produces great problems, particularly when you apply it to the situation in America today.

[11:20]

But actually the problems are not so different as you might think. Because, I don't know whether I mentioned this, the Hindu sannyasi today is very rarely content simply to live the holy life dedicated to God alone. It's very interesting to find that the majority, as far as I can discover, or certainly a very great number, know instead of it some kind of social work, some regard of the poor belongs to the sannyasi life. Astram Trivandrum, quite a typical one, where there was a Degtyar Sanyasi there. He'd been a general of a quite high rank in the army. He'd had a summoned call, and he'd given everything up to receiving this knife. But I found that he had, as usual, they have a a woman, in a Hindu ashram, you know, you may easily have married people, and children, and it's a terrible mix-up, but you are living a religious life, and this was very inclusive, you have strong meditations, and this

[12:33]

woman, who was a kind of devotee, and they had a little orphanage, and a dispensary, and several other works, which they were doing for the benefit of the poor. So I think we can say that into the Hindu idea, that this principle of concern for the poor has already entered in. There's a beautiful story of Mahatma Gandhi which I think is very significant and really perhaps shows you how India has taken this line. You know he said once that my one purpose in life is to realize God. That is what every Bodhindu really seeks, to realize God. That is to experience really the fullness of a life, a divine life as he perceives it in his own life. He said, my one purpose in life is to realize God. If I thought I could realize God, by going and living in a cave in the Himalayas, I would do so to meet him.

[13:38]

And I'm sure he was speaking the truth. And, ah, you know, good minutes, I guess, if you're in a cave in the Himalayas, and living on just wild fruits and things. But he said, I am convinced that I can only find God if I find Him in my neighbor, and as my neighbor is the poor man in India, therefore I devote my life to the service of the poor, but in order to realize God, you see. Well, I think that is very significant, and I think it it marks a tendency of our whole age that we don't find it possible now really to separate the service of God and complete dedication to God from this concern for our neighbor and particularly this concern for the poor. And so actually in our monastery we've simply been led to it. For some time we've had a small dispensary which actually It's been rather a trial. One of the Indian fathers turned out to be very good at dispensing medicine.

[14:42]

He's not studied it except by getting up in books, because he could have quite a tedious thought dispensing the right medicine. And in fact... What the heck are you talking about? We are growing longer. We begin to come from miles and miles away. Whenever you start anything in there, there's a trouble. If you start a little rice or milk, You have half a dozen people to begin with, and the next day there are a dozen, and the next day there are twenty, and if the news gets round, you have to live for eternity, don't you? It's quite pathetic, you know, this state of complete poverty. They're just living from day to day. They're not starving usually, just enough to carry on. But the moment you have something, we very often get American wheat or milk to go, then everybody comes to get it. So we started the dispensary, and soon we found one father and one brother were taking up the whole day, morning and afternoon. We thought this was a bit too much, and we had to cut it down. But still, we feel that is something which we have to do, and we will probably make arrangements for a proper dispensary later on.

[15:48]

But also we found that by undertaking the dairy farm, which we've done for our own support, we were doing something of real value for the whole neighborhood in which we are. This dairy farm, they might show me to it suddenly. Look how the lines are drawn, they're coming up gradually, and we're going to make it really good standard for art, we are working with the government, and we are really being able to take a positive part in this movement for the development of the villages in India, which is really fundamental. So that you see, living our contemplative lives, seeking this ideal of poverty, renunciation, and devotion to God, We're at the same time being drawn, quite spontaneously and naturally and rightly, I think, into this concern for the poor around us and into this general movement for raising the standard of life.

[16:57]

Well, now, I think that is unfortunate, because I don't honestly feel that a monk can or should try to separate himself from the world in that sense. I think there is a false idea of separation from the world. Sometimes we think that we live out in the country and we don't see a lot of people, and we are to some extent independent of the outside world, and we create an illusion that we're really independent, but of course we're actually depending on the world at every moment. our lighting and our daily posts and a million other things which were simply kind to the world. And I think it's very important that we should recognize that. And furthermore, doesn't it mean that the monastery and the church is always in intimate relation to the world? We can't really cut that bond.

[17:58]

And so, when we think of renunciation of the world and prophecy, I think we must relate it to the world in which we are living. Now, as I say, our world in India has these particular circumstances of poverty, and we must relate our monastic life to the poverty there. For us to live in the style in which we are living here would be positively wrong in India, because it wouldn't be related to the life of the people around about us. On the other hand, if you were here in America, you have to relate the poverty of your life to the general standard of America. And that obviously presents a different problem. But in each case, surely, we've got to be really sensitive to what the demands of poverty are. I mean, poverty isn't just a sort of abstraction, some particular rules which you can apply. It really is and ultimately, of course, a mortal antithesis, an interior disposition, but as far as expresses itself externally, it is a living relationship.

[19:07]

to the people and the circumstances in which we live. And that's why it must always be diversified, and why it's a matter of positive, creative understanding. I think that is what we have to achieve. And I must say, from what I see here, I do feel that you have created here a really positive form of poverty, of monastic observance. If it can't be at all easy, But in this world of great abundance, I think to have rights for living in simplicity, and in a real poverty, is a very, very important witness. And I think it would be a great pity if monks should fail in that witness. In America, as in India, we are witnesses to the poverty of Christ, and particularly to that simplicity of life. which goes with poverty and goes with poverty of spirit and poverty of thoughts.

[20:09]

There is our profit. We can't pretend that we're cut off from this civilization. And equally, don't forget, in India, the whole Indian economy will come to a stop. It's going to stay. It tells us that America will stop. India is simply depending on this American aid. And this building up of the village economy, of the standard of life that I was saying, it's part of this development taking place, which must take basic interests to survive. And therefore, we are involved in this whole movement of modern civilization, and it's foolish to pretend that we're not, or to deny it its proper value. And therefore, when we say we're renouncing the world, we want to, as I say, clearly what we really mean. Because I'm sure that it has a very deep and fundamental meaning in it. But it does not mean that we cut ourselves off from the fundamental relationship with the world, which really belongs to us as men and also as Christians.

[21:14]

We are in a necessary relation to it. And that, of course, brings the further problem that in the world today, and in the Church today especially, We are all very much aware of the need for the Christian to be, as they say, engaged, to be involved in the circumstances of his time, not to be building a car, not to be setting himself apart in a ghetto, but to be entering into the life of the people and actually transforming that life. And I'm very conscious of that in India, and I think we have a wonderful opportunity there to cooperate with this economic world, with this tremendous social movement, you know, this breaking down of caste, which is going on all the time, which is absolutely transforming society. It's very slow, and it's very difficult, and sometimes I'm afraid that Christians and Catholics don't give the best example, but all the same, that social revolution is taking place, and the church should be at the center of that revolution.

[22:17]

We have principles there, which the Hindus recognize to some extent, which are of incalculable value to them, so that we're engaged in the economic and the social movement which is going on, and even in the political movement. This democratic order is an order which enables us to live our life with the greatest degree of freedom. We can't be unresponsive to that. And so also, therefore, for you in America, you have to live a Benedictine life, a monastic life, on the traditional foundations, and yet in relation to this vastly complex civilization, this very high standard of life, this very interesting and profound social evolution which is taking place, and also political evolution. So that I feel as monks, we must be aware of our relationship to all this evolving world. We are in the center of this new world, which is really very, very exciting.

[23:21]

I'm sure you feel it. Perhaps you don't so much here, because it's all It's been going a long time, but when you see it getting underway in a country like India, when you see the invisible probably, I mean, don't forget this background of life you're seeing just next door to us, wherever you are, within a hundred yards or so, practically, you will find people living on a subsistence level, on subsistence level, that just surviving from day to day. And poverty is simply basic, not in the sense which I imagined when we made that monastery, but in the sense in which it has been throughout human history. A little hut with mud walls, with an earth floor, and with a farm leaf roof. That is the basic pattern throughout India. You know, 80% of the people are living in villages, and Well, I don't know, 80%, but 60% I should think of the houses and cottages in the villages are in that pattern still.

[24:23]

Simply a little mud hut with an earth floor and a palm leaf roof. And that is the utter simplicity, you see, the utter poverty of life. And that is the basis of the whole life, and that is what we have to keep in our minds related to. Well now, as I say, in America you've got to keep your relationship to this whole complex civilization. And yet we have in the midst of this, wherever we are, to make our witness to the poverty of Christ and to this great principle of renunciation of the world. And I do think that that should be really very fundamental in our lives. I think we all take as our captain in this the call of Abraham. That is really the basic call to get thee out of thy country, thy father's house, to the man that I will show thee.

[25:23]

In a sense, of course, that is a basic Christian call. There is a sense in which every Christian is called to renounce the world. After all, we made that pronunciation at baptism. This word, the world, of course, it is somewhat confusing. Mason Fall uses it, and in the New Testament generally they have this rather particular sense, just as with the flesh, they don't mean the body as God created it, so is the world, they don't mean human culture and civilization in itself, they always mean the world and the flesh as they are concretely under the dominion of sin. That is the sense in the New Testament, isn't it? So this renunciation of the world, this renunciation of this human order insofar as it is under the dominion of sin, which of course is very real and very deep. Wherever we look we see this dominion of sin going through human civilization.

[26:26]

and I mean to a appalling extent, materialism leading to atheism, which runs right through modern society and which extends wherever it goes, wherever you live, a big modern city, in Hongdae or Singapore or Hong Kong or Tokyo, the same effects immediately become apparent. People dragged away from their traditional religion, losing belief in God, losing belief in moral values, and giving way to this complete materialism, so the reign of sin is only too clear in the modern world. And yet, of course, we constantly renounce that world as a whole, and that is a kind of simplification which I think we're sometimes in danger. And the real difficulty is, isn't it, that life is never like that. It's never black and white. Whenever you are starting to condemn something, and this is positively evil, you immediately find some good in it. And whenever you are trying to say, now this is positively good, you immediately find some evil in it.

[27:28]

I mean, think sort of classic opposition of the church and communism. We would like to find that communism was wholly evil, and that communists were bad lips. But then we could think of them as the enemy and we could buy all the songs for them. But immediately we tried to do that, then we discovered, in general, in most of the world, the appalling fact that the Christians are so awful on the side of the rich, and are being positively refusing to accept that the elements of social justice and the communists are coming in, and are simply the only people who have any real concerns with social justice. That's a terrible fact. Can we add an example? I don't want to. take up too much of your time with stories, but perhaps it helps to give a human background to our retreat. We have a terrible example of that in our monastery. I won't mention names, but a very good Catholic landowner gave us the property of our monastery.

[28:35]

He was a very good friend to us, and in many ways he was a very nice man. and were very good friends. But he had about a thousand acres there, and he gave us a hundred, which was very generous of him. But he had three hundred acres under the tea, which is worked by coolies, that is, by labourers. And he's been cultivating this now for ten years, or maybe less, a good many years. and these people have been working for him. Well now, you know the daily wage of a labourer in a tea estate, it's a statutory wage, it's about, let's forget, two rupees a day, that's about 40 cents. That's about 40 cents a day. Now, that is a basic wage, and that is not a bad wage. He can live on that, particularly if the women work, and the children work, and the whole family can do fairly well on that.

[29:37]

But you know, this landowner never paid his coolies that minimum wage. He invariably gave them what is called store cash at the end of the week. He told them, I can't tell you, I'm afraid, but you give them just enough to buy provisions for the next week. And this went on from week to week, month to month, and year to year. By the time we came, he was owing those people several thousand rupees. There you have people on an absolutely subsistent level, as I say, with a minimum wage, and a very sincere Catholic, going to Mass every Sunday, and contributing to the funds of the Church, and giving up land for a monastery, and yet feeling himself perfectly justified. He never felt there was anything wrong with it. And I tried walking with him once, and he couldn't see anything wrong with it. He just said, I haven't got the money. Which is probably true, but to the extent at all, a lot of other things that she was more interested in. Now, this is the interesting fact. The only people who came to the rescue of those Kulits were the Communists.

[30:42]

The Communist MLA, the member of the Legislative Assembly, came down there, he studied their case, he took it to the court, and he brought the case against this man. He, of course, was a very influential person, and he was defending his case very strongly. He told me, I'm not going to let these fellows get the better of me, and he was determined to fight the case against them. But luckily, as a matter of fact, we were able to settle it. One of our little little fathers is an extremely good man. One of the best priests I've known, in his understanding of the kulis, particularly of communists, he's had a lot of experience. And these communists, you know, are perfectly simple, good men, and their only reason they're communists is because the communists are apartheid, and there's no ideology in it at all. And he had the confidence of these men, and we managed to get the son of Islam there alive. the common elite, the communist leader, and they get in our monastery and they get into an agreement and the money is now being paid.

[31:48]

Well, that was simply good fortune. We couldn't have done it without this particular father. That is an illustration of what is happening all over Canada. that you've got these rich landowners with no sense of justice, and the only people who will do anything on top of this. So as I say, as soon as we try and face a situation like that, and think, this is evil, this must be fought, this is the work of the devil, we immediately find something like that, you see. And on the other hand, when we think of the church, we think, Christ, this is where we can give our love and support, and we find the church in our representative, not only the laymen, but also priests and bishops, is on the other side. So the complexity always strikes me more and more, that this complexity of life and the necessity of making concrete judgments, not in abstractions, you see, communism, Catholicism, but the real situation of people here, and the factors involved in their lives.

[32:51]

So there I think is how we have to... face this modern civilization. You can't say it's good and you can't say it's bad. It's got this complex of very, very profound evil in it, whether it's communist or whether it's capitalist. There are tremendous forces of sin and of evil in it, and we should be deeply aware of that. At the same time, there are, you see it so extraordinarily in America, this mixture of more terrible evils than the most wonderful good. that marvelous forces of good can be released. So we have to place ourselves and our monastic life in this conflict setting of good and evil as we see it. And now, as I say, I'm fully convinced that in the midst of this world we have this witness-make of renunciation. Like Abraham, the Christian is called to renounce this world, powers of evil in this world which are continually shaping the whole destiny of the world, of the nation, these forces have to be relapsed.

[34:03]

And a monk is called to make this renunciation a very positive sense. There is for each of us, isn't there, really a conversion, a time when we do really turn against the world. And I would say at a certain stage we have to make a total conversion of God. And that means that the whole of this mixture of good and evil, with all its involves, we do at a certain stage, I think, renounce. We say, I give myself totally to God. And that perhaps is our next implication, is that we are trying to give ourselves totally to God, and then to renew our lives totally on that basis. So that in a sense the monastery, monastic life, it's a new beginning, it's a kind of re-creation of the world. And I think that perhaps we can define our position in the world today, that these forces that there are, forces of good and evil, the church has to get work in this ferment,

[35:06]

with the forces of good, really trying to bring the Christian level into the wholeness of modern life, but within the church there is a place of the monks of the monastery, and they're called for more profound renunciation and for more profound Beginning again, don't you think that there is in our lives something basic? We go back to the land. We go back to build up our life from its basis in the land. I mean, you here have had this experience with your farm, and you know what the labor and the trial and difficulty is involved in really trying to go back to basic things, to start your life from scratch. And I think that is a wonderful and asking experience. If we start off with everything provided and all the amenities of life, we don't have the real monastic experience. And that's why I'm eternally grateful for this experience in India.

[36:12]

It's a bit harassing sometimes, I'm sure you find the same. You're not prepared for all the all the demands made on you, and there were some of them, there was no road when we first came, we had to ford a stream and climb a hill to get to the monastery, and there was no means of carrying anything, except in the Indian way on our heads, and so we transported our whole library on our heads, once, about two miles away, across the stream and up the hill. So, there were many demands on us. And then again, you know, it's very interesting because the caste Hindu will never do work of that kind. And when they saw us carrying these things in our head, they said, oh father, you mustn't do this. It's a very short journey. and some of our Catholics were too. But we feel it's very necessary, and it's part of our monastification, to show that there's no work which we're not prepared to do.

[37:18]

And we work alongside the coolies. You see, in an ordinary establishment, you employ some coolies, and then you have a fast Hindu or a Christian, And he is in charge of them, but he doesn't do any work. He just sits at the fence by with a nice clean shirt and dirty umbrella for the rain, and he tells them what to do, and he sees that they do it, and he collects the money and pays them and so on. It's a very responsible job, and they often do it very well, but he doesn't have any work. I mean, he wouldn't be seen dirtying this. shirt or anything like that. And so it's a real revelation to them to see us, we all do from top to bottom, doing all the dirtiest work ourselves and keying out the cow shed and all that business. So I think that again it's a really important aspect of it. So, as I was saying, as monks, we are called to this kind of basic worth. We start from scratch again, we build up from, and I think a monastery has a necessary connection.

[38:22]

I don't know whether you agree with the land, that's a concept, that's universal, but in its tradition, surely, was the Benedict himself, and all the early spread of monasticism. It builds up from the land, from this basis, which to me is important in this relation to nature. You know, that there is a basic human relation to nature, as was seen in God, the being, the original plan of God. And I feel that in a thick civilization like America, which is tending to lose that, it's rather necessary that some people should be preserving it. You see, it isn't good when you simply begin to live in big cities and you lose this relationship to nature, upon which, awful, we all depend. We all have to come to ask for their milk and their bread and everything else that depends on what is there. So we do start from this basis, this fundamental simplicity of poverty and labor. You see, I think this is all a wonderful vocation in this present world.

[39:28]

that they should see people of all different kinds and classes and callings coming and sharing this work. And that is where, again, I think the Indoor Monastery is in mind, in England and also in India, this principle that we all share the work of life. It all comes to be amongst, whether we're priests or not, we take our part in the daily work. and share a life. I think all this is fundamental to our monastic calling and our witness. Now, that I think is the basic matter in poverty. I'd like to apply it a little to the detail of our own personal life. Obviously in this the important thing is to have this deep inner spirit of renunciation.

[40:34]

And I think when we come to the monastery, when we renounce the world, we have to make a very, very deep backbore detachment. I mean, it's quite true we know we're going to have the necessities of life normally. We're going to have even some of the amenities of life. But we do need to make that radical conversion, that real act of committing our lives to God. I think that's very important that God may provide. That is the principle of monastic life. We commit ourselves to God and we respect that God will provide. And, well, I expect you've experienced it, and most monasteries do in their early stages. You do depend very much on divine providence from day to day. I had a very interesting experience at a monastery in England in that way. where we were at the start, and we were building up, and we never, I think, the Divine Providence did it on purpose, we never seemed to have, we were always absolutely at the last limit each month, we just survived from month to month, and I remember one occasion when we were going to

[41:48]

We had a large overdraft on the bank, we had a lot of money, and we couldn't go beyond its limits, and things had practically reached the limit, and some good nun wrote to us from Africa, and said they urgently needed five pounds to buy a car. And I discussed it with the pastor, and we said, well now, we must trust in divine providence. We'll give it this five pounds today and see if God won't provide for us what they are at the end of the month. It's all in God's little money case. And again and again, once more, and I'm sure this is true, And if you trust in Divine Providence, you may be led through all sorts of straits and difficulties, but you do find that God provides for you in the end. And that's a very important lesson for the monastery, and I think, as I say, for the individual monk to have that sense of dependence on Divine Providence. and to be prepared for emergencies when one may be deprived of things. Michael Caine and Fr. Francis, for instance, in the war, his monastery was taken over by the Germans and they were simply dispersed.

[42:54]

I think they managed to get together in some place, but I mean, if these things do happen in the world today, then we should have that sense of dependence on Providence which will carry us through even extreme difficulties. And so then, with a basic sense of detachment, we have to bring it into our daily lives. And then, in the life of the monastery, we have to find each individual, and the monastery as a whole, that kind of property which is suited to our state, to our place in the world, and to our place in the monastery. in the matter of food, in the matter of dress, in the matter of furniture, in the matter, I think it's very important, of public buildings and of the church and so on. I think there's obviously very great scope for diversity, but surely a basic pattern of poverty Actually, your church is a mere model of that, really.

[43:57]

I mean, it's got a basic simplicity and poverty, but it must tell you one rather amusing story. My friend, Fr. Eltid Evans, a Dominican, he's very interested in church architecture, and he's on the brink of a modern strife. And, you know, the Archbishop of the Convent of Los Angeles is building a new cathedral. Eh, thank you, [...] thank you. I had a conversation with him, and the Archbishop asked him what he thought of his plan, and he put on the foil, you see, which he'd got, and for instance, he wanted to say, but I'm honest, he'd taken it all the other course. He said, well, I think there's simply a quarry. The Archbishop said, well, you know, I don't know anything about architects at all.

[44:58]

These have just been given me. You better tell me what you think. And the Father Bishop said, well, I think the principle on which you ought to build is that of holy poverty. And the Archbishop said, I've got $15 million for this cathedral. And in the end, he said, he, the other bishop of Serenius, seemed to be quite converted, and he even suggested an exception. extremely good architect, the one who built the church for the Priory of St. Julius. That's a very Japanese architect, so you may see something quite wonderful, right?

[46:01]

But you see the point, that there should be, in a church, an expression of this humblety, this simplicity, with the spirit, of course, of worship and of honouring God. And I think we're learning that. I mean, I think we now have a sense of wrongness or cheap display, and that the architecture of the church should show forth the real meaning of our Christian life and of our monastic life. And so also the monastic buildings, not the great ornate buildings, and particularly, I think, very high buildings. I like this idea of keeping things low. It's a good impression of humility actually. So there we are then, with our dress, with our food, with our clothing, our furniture, with our buildings and particularly with our church and our furniture and everything. This principle of poverty and of simplicity and of a dedication to God, you see, after all that is the fundamental thing, should be regulating everything.

[47:14]

And then, if we have that uneventful spirit of poverty, that we are dedicated to God, that we've really emptied ourselves, you see, that is the real basis of poverty. It's to be empty in one's own heart, in one's soul, so that God can fill it. You know, our host Eckhart speaks so wonderfully of this emptiness, this poverty of the soul, which, as long as you've got any possessions of your own, that God can't come in. Only when he sees you naked and empty and poor can God come and take his place in your heart. For so it is, if we have that basic simplicity of poverty, of spirit, and of heart, then it will express itself in our lives. We shall find the right way of doing things in the monastery, and it is our thoughts in our lives. And just to conclude, I think each one, each individual one, has to exercise its own spirit of poverty. You know, it's quite easy to collect things, and even without intention, simply by routine, things don't collect, and one gets exceptions of certain things and so on, and gradually one can find one is making a kind of

[48:32]

sort of separate place for oneself in the monastery. And that again, I think we can always beware of it. We used to, in our monastery, have to have a poverty list which we made out every year, that lent a little bit. Well, that gave it to me. That's good. But it certainly was a heck when you had to go round with furniture of your cell and to put down in writing what you'd got. It was extraordinary how many papers you were having to read. Yeah, and it was such an opportunity to get rid of the unnecessary. Though that kind of watchfulness I think we all have, I wouldn't say so. in our lives, what's literally called the vice of private ownership. It always, as I was saying, we copy vice, it's deep in our nature, and it's a very strong impulse in our nature, and we have continued to be on our guard against it. But if we have this basic state of poverty, if we're really seeking God in this emptiness of soul, in this real radical detachment from the world, so that in a very real sense, though we're

[49:44]

We're related to the world and we're prepared to play our part in the world, yet ultimately we don't depend on anyone or anything except God. I think that we must stay there. I've said all this about our relationship to the world and our need of recognizing it and playing our part, but in the ultimate ground of our soul we have to have this complete dependence on everybody and everything. We have to be simply naked before God alone, and as St Benedict says, and as all the teaching of the Church tells us, to be prepared at every moment for our death, where we are simply present with God. That surely must be basic in our lives, and if we have that, then, as I say, it will radiate into our the daily habits of life and of the monastery, and it will radiate from the monastery into the world. And I do think we have as Benedict in France a real vocation to transform society, as Benedict himself did, from this base of poverty, simplicity, dedication to God, that this should radiate out into America, into this modern civilization, and bring about that balance.

[51:00]

that harm to the image of the present it doesn't possess and which it needs really very very seriously and there is our positive contribution as monks to the life of the world.

[51:11]

@Transcribed_v004
@Text_v004
@Score_JJ