Good morning. This afternoon, we are going to have a priest ordination. Andrea Thatch, Ryu Shin, will be ordained as a priest. We don't have a priest ordination so often. We have lay ordinations more often, and every once in a while we'll have a priest ordination. So I want to talk about what is a priest and so forth.

[01:14]

Traditionally, in Buddhism, there are four classes of ordnice. There are practitioners, actually. monks and nuns and laymen and laywomen. Traditionally, monks and nuns are renunciates in the sense of being monastics. And for the most part, I think throughout Buddhist history there have been priests, but priest is more Chinese and Japanese way of thinking about ordinies.

[02:17]

Japan has their own distinctive way of thinking about priest practice and lay practice. and America certainly has its own distinctive way of thinking about priest practice and lay practice. But our practice basically is inherited from Japan and has a Japanese way of doing things, flavor, but also we have our own evolving way. everything is evolving. And the way we think about our practice, the way we think about laymen and laywomen and monks and nuns is a work in progress. So although we do have some traditional ways, we also have

[03:27]

different traditional ways and our own way, which is not yet a tradition, exactly. So we say that an ordained person is a left-home person and a lay person is an at-home person. But actually, a lay practitioner practices in a left home way in many ways. And a left-home person practices as like an at-home person in many ways. So there's a lot of crossing over and a lot of blurring of boundaries, not boundaries, but lines of definition.

[04:30]

So when we say, well, what is exactly a priest and what exactly is a lay person? It's not always definable. Matter of fact, what is a lay person is not definable. And what is a priest is not definable. So when we try to make definitions, we can do that to a certain extent. But there's a whole area that is non-defined. And that non-defined gives space for flexibility. given the conditions that we encounter in our environment and our time. So, when Suzuki Roshi came to America in 1959, He didn't have any idea what was going to happen.

[05:40]

And in the early 60s, many people came, a number of people, not so many, but a number of people came to sit with him at the old Sokoji Temple in Japantown, San Francisco. A number of people came to him who felt that they were on their way to Japan because they'd heard about Zen, they were interested in Zen, and Suzuki-ryo just seemed to be a stepping stone for them on their way to Japan to practice. They had no idea what they were doing. None of them had any idea what they were doing, exactly. Suzuki Roshi, there's a little bit, I'm not clear exactly, but he had somebody ordain a couple of people that went to Japan, but it didn't work out because they were not sincere enough.

[06:59]

And it was almost impossible to get through the Japanese system or get into that. And they didn't know the language, and it was just too complicated. And a lot of the teachers felt that those students, unless they committed themselves to a lifetime of practice, they weren't sincere. And then Suzuki Roshi started to ordain several people, and they all ran away. Eventually they all ran away. To where? One day somebody came up to me and said, you know, I was the first person that Suzuki Roshi ordained. Isn't it around somewhere? So, he ordained, I think I was the fifth person that he ordained.

[08:14]

There was no lay ordination. He didn't do, in 1961, I think it was, he had the bishop from Los Angeles. There's two head temples, two Japanese temples in California. One is Sokoji in San Francisco, the other is Zinshuji in Los Angeles. And Zinshuji is actually the head temple for the Japanese. And so the bishop lived at the head temple in Los Angeles. So Suzuki Roshi, in all humility, had the bishop come and give the ordination to, I think it was eight people, eight of his students. But there was no lay ordination after that until 1971, I think.

[09:16]

So I didn't have, I never had lay ordination, but I had been practicing with Suzuki Hiroshi for about three years. And one day he called me in and he said, I would like you to join our order. There were no other, there was only one or two other Zen priests that were around at that time. They were in Japan or someplace. And I was rather surprised because it was kind of out of the blue. And I said, oh, sure. The reason he asked me was because I was there every day. I was practicing every day. I had the same clothes on every day. One day he looked at my, I had a sweater that I used to wear to Zazen, and he said, this is your robe.

[10:24]

So I said, well, yeah, of course I'd like to do that, because this is what I was doing anyway. So I said, well, when, when do you want to do that? He said, when you're ready and when I'm ready. So two years later, he said, well, I think it's about time to do the ordination. I don't know whether to do it at Tassajara or in Berkeley, because by that time, we had started the Berkeley Zendo in 67. Matter of fact, I had already started the Berkeley Zendo in 67 after three years of practice. Can't believe it. And so 69, he said, I'll do it in Berkeley because he felt that that would be encouraging to the Sangha to have a priest. So we had the ordination in Berkeley, at the old Zendo, on Dwight Way.

[11:40]

So then I asked him, I said, well, what shall I do as a priest? And he said, I don't know. And I went to Katagiri sensei, who was Suzuki Roshi's assistant, and I said, What shall I do as a priest? He said, I don't know. And that was a wonderful koan for me. Suzuki Roshi always gave me koans like that, living koans. I don't know. To me that meant I had to find out what I was doing. You know, Linda gave a talk on a Monday morning, and she was talking about, she said, I don't know what I'm gonna, I haven't prepared this talk. I don't know what I'm gonna say. And she said, it reminds me of this saying from a koan, like reaching for your pillow in the night, not knowing where it is.

[12:46]

That's the key to our practice. reaching for your pillow, not knowing where it is, not knowing what you're going to do next, not having anything set out for you to do. So you have to find out what you're doing. You have to find out the meaning of what you're doing. It's true that there are, you know, when you become ordained, you take the precepts and we think, well, according to the precepts, tell us what to do. But there are living precepts and dead precepts. If you follow the precepts just by rote, as rules, that's dead precepts. Living precepts are how you respond with compassion and trying to understand every situation and responding to every situation from compassion and emptiness.

[13:57]

This is reaching for your pillow in the night. It's like the blind, you know, we say the blind leading the blind. But true blindness, there are five kinds of blindness. But the highest kind of blindness is not knowing anything, not being able to see anything, just responding from this moment. So when To me, that koan has been my kind of guiding light since 1969, when I was ordained. I used to just copy Suzuki Roshi, what he was doing. I would watch him and I would just do what he did.

[15:06]

He would do the service, and I would just watch him, and I would just do what he did. So, no one ever taught us how to do things. We just observed. And this is Japanese style, which is very hard for people. Japanese style is very hard for people because they don't tell you anything. Teachers don't tell you anything. You're expected to observe. and not know anything. So the only time they tell you anything is when you do something wrong. And this is the kind of problem that we have. Because somebody will come up and say, you never, the only time you ever talk to me is when I do something wrong. And I sympathize with that. You know, Suzuki Roshi said, a good teacher never tells the students everything.

[16:20]

And one famous teacher in China said, when a student asked him why he was bowing to his teacher who had died, he said, Is it because he gave you the dharma or something like that? He said, no, it's because he never revealed the thing to me. I had to find it for myself. So this is our practice, how to find our way by ourself, even though we do have guidance. It's not that we don't have guidance. We do have guidance, but we're not told everything. So, we have to find out for ourselves. This is the basis of Buddhadharma. There are all kinds of scriptures that tell you all about Buddhism, but basically, you have to find out for yourself.

[17:24]

That's one reason why many teachers don't allow their students to study. Because they don't want their students to feel that because they study and that they think they know something. And to rely on that information. So the teacher watches the student like a child. You know, finding their way. And if the child goes too far in some way, then the teacher pulls them back. Mother pulls the child back. Don't do that. But basically, you let the child find their way. But then, a little bit to the right or a little bit to the left. The less you interfere, the better. But at just the right moment,

[18:31]

The teacher should act. So when I ordain somebody myself, I have absorbed that kind of style. I absorbed Suzuki Roshi style. I had at least six Japanese teachers. when I was studying the first seven years. And each one was different. Each one had their own way, but it was all the same way, even though they were all completely different. Different personalities, different way of doing things, but something about it was all the same. all came from the same root. So, all their different ways have the same flavor.

[19:37]

Variations of the same flavor. So, I have a similar way, you know, of relating to my students and to priests, especially. Some teachers, when they ordain someone, they keep them very close for a long time. When I ordain somebody, I chase them away, mostly. When I ordain someone, I like them to do the monastic practice. They can't always do the monastic practice, but mostly, that's what I require, is that they do monastic practice, because monastic practice for a priest is essential.

[20:49]

Because in monastic practice, you do this, you're not, you have a very concentrated schedule and you really absorb the practice with your pores, through your pores. You don't even know how you're doing that. But it's not always possible. I usually wait five years before I'll consent to ordain someone. And when I do ordain someone, I feel that they are already practicing as a priest, even though they're not ordained, that they actually practice that way. So it's not like necessarily a big leap. into ordination is just more like a step. So I'm generally very careful about who I ordain and how much

[21:59]

experience they should have. One of the criteria for experience is that when we begin to practice, we have inspiration. And then our effort matches our inspiration. And then after a while, we get used to practice. And then, or something will come along and will say, geez, you know, like, this is boring. Or you run into some problem and you say, I can't take this anymore, or whatever. And then you work through that and you come back. So various things happen that will discourage you, but then something else will encourage you. Practice is not necessarily like this, it's more like this.

[23:02]

You go down, then you come back up, then you go down, you come back. So I want a person to have enough experience of going down and coming back up so that they know, oh yeah, I know, you come down, you go back up. And they know that that undulation is part of practice. And so when I ordain somebody, it's with a conviction that they will continue to practice for their whole life in that way, without being discouraged, without backsliding. So when someone is ordained, They're called an unsui. Unsui means cloud water. Un is a cloud and sui is water. Cloud, water person. Of course, clouds are water, right?

[24:06]

And water is clouds. Water is not necessarily clouds, but clouds are water. Vapor. So water, you know, is everywhere. and takes all shapes, has no shape of its own. Water has no shape of its own, but it becomes clouds, and clouds have a shape. And we read the shape into the cloud. We go, oh, there's an elephant. And then pretty soon, oh no, it's a kangaroo. No, it's a castle. So the unsui has no special shape or form. but responds to circumstances. You know, sometimes you initiate something, but what you initiate is for the sake of practice or for the sake of all beings. So, the other characteristic is renunciation.

[25:18]

So that's a big subject. What is the meaning of renunciation? So there's renunciation of material things, and there's renunciation of the sentient beings of our own mind. Material things are not as important, actually. Whether you have a lot of stuff or a little bit of stuff is not so important. It's very hard for us in this society to live with nothing, or almost nothing, unless we're supported by people. So usual monk practice or priest practice. In Buddhist practice, the monks are renunciates and they're supported by the lay people.

[26:33]

So they don't have to worry so much. They just go out and beg or food is brought to them. or their material needs are all taken care of, but that doesn't happen here. So priests have to go out and work or find some way to support themselves because there's not a supportive community, except in the monastic community. But the monastic community in America, say at Tassajara, both laypeople and priests practice as monks for the practice periods. And in the summer, the Tassajara practice is taking care of the guest season for four or five months. And that earns the students tuition, so to speak, for the monastic practice.

[27:42]

So the monks actually work for their practice periods in the summer. So that works. That's pretty good. And some begging. Begging is like asking for donations. So there's a little bit of that too, donations and work and so forth. In India, monks were not allowed to work. They were not allowed to own anything other than their bowls and their robes and so forth. But they were always supported by people. In China, when Buddhism came to China, the Chinese ethic was a work ethic. and a family ethic. So the people resented the monks begging for food or whatever.

[28:44]

And so eventually the monks had property, monastic property, and they worked in their fields. That was part of their practice, was work. Pai Chong, Master Pai Chong in China, had the famous saying, a day of no work is a day of no eating. The monks, when he got old, the monks hid his tools, but he went out there and worked anyway. So we may have some idea of what a priest is or what a priest's practice is, but we should be careful not to get attached to some particular way that it's supposed to be. And we have to adapt to the situation at hand. So sometimes people say, well, when you ordain priests, they don't look like the priests in India, to me, or the monks in India.

[29:49]

No, they are not like that. They're like the priests in America, working out how to make it happen, how to make that work. So it takes different forms, and there's experimentation. I don't like to use the word experimentation. It sounds like science. But it's more finding out what works and not being held back by some traditional idea. Also, priests are allowed to marry, which this began in Japan, a tradition of priests being married. You know, if there's the celibate tradition and then there's the family tradition, and either way, you have a problem.

[30:52]

I think that the Catholic Church should allow their priests to marry. If they don't get it by now, Anyway. So what's very important about becoming ordained as a priest is that this is the thing that you want to do more than anything else in the world. and that you don't have some other aspiration. If you have some other aspiration, that's what you should do. But when you have no other aspiration, and that's all you want to do, and you know that that's what you want to do, and that's not just an idea. Sometimes people have an idea.

[32:00]

Oh, I'd like to be ordained. their life is not really going that way. And there are many good practitioners whose practice is admirable, but being a priest is not right for that person. And there are some people who could be priests, But there's some problem that they have that, you know, they're not ready yet. So for me, it's very selective. It's not like I'm selecting people, but I have to be very careful because it has happened that someone will be ordained and it doesn't turn out so well.

[33:00]

The Japanese, in Japan, people are ordained much more easily than here in America. But the Japanese have a different system than we do. When the young men go into the monastery, or young women, go into the monastery for practice, they become ordained. Often they're ordained when they're just, you know, very young at their family temple. So it's more like spreading seeds, and some of them sprout and some of them don't. Some of them grow up and some of them, you know, that's their style more, but they have a Buddhist culture in which that can happen. I don't think that's something for us to do at all, because in the first place, so many people don't understand what it means to be a priest in the wrong sense. Not understanding in the right sense, and not understanding in the wrong sense.

[34:13]

Not understanding in the wrong sense means, oh, I'm a priest, so that must mean I'm a teacher, and then I'm gonna start, and they go out and they do some ridiculous thing, and proclaim themselves as enlightened or whatever. So we have to be very careful of that. Renunciation for a priest means humility. That's the main thing. What does humility mean? I've been talking about this quite a bit, I think. Some of you, oh no, I didn't hear you talk about this, but I have been talking about this. Humility means knowing exactly where you are. You may not know who you are, but you know that you don't think that you're more than you are, and you don't think that you're less than you are. and you don't put on airs, you're not arrogant, and you're not hiding somewhere.

[35:21]

It's just that you're right there in a balanced state. And and honest with yourself and true to yourself. That's humility. It's not feeling that you're lower than everybody else or something like that. It's that you know exactly where you are. In practice, we reach up to someone who we admire, who inspires us. we reach down to someone who we can help. That's knowing exactly where you are. So you're part of a interdependent entity.

[36:33]

You are one piece of an interdependent entity. and you know exactly what your part is in that interdependence. So you're creating harmony all the time by not doing anything special, just knowing where you are all the time, just being awake to where you are all the time, moment by moment, and finding your balance moment by moment. This is unsui, this is clouds and water, and this is humility. So, and it's also renunciation. Renunciation is letting go of whatever is not necessary.

[37:33]

It takes various forms depending on the system that you're working with. for some people, is giving up all your worldly goods. For someone else, it's simply letting go of greed, hate, and delusion. But if you have a million dollars, which isn't much money anymore, maybe a billion, Billionaires are what millionaires used to be. When I was a kid, a millionaire was really something. I mean, wow. Now your house is worth a million dollars. The one that you bought for $15,000 50 years ago. Anyway. It's okay to have all that money. It just depends on your attachment to it and what you do with it. If you do wonderful things with it and help people, that's good.

[38:51]

So there's nothing wrong with things. We live in a world of things, but we have to be able to live in the world of things without attachment. Otherwise, we get to easily get to the point where we think that nothing material is any good. and we shouldn't touch anything material, which is not right. We have to be able to use everything according to its function. And the way we relate to everything is what creates us. The way I relate to everything, it creates me. So, in this interdependent world, knowing how to function in harmony with things, that's renunciation.

[39:54]

I mean, giving up ego, giving up a sense of me, myself, and mine, in order to allow for that harmony. And it also means being turned by things and turning things. So it's not just being passive, it's also being active. Being active and knowing when to be active, to activate, and knowing when to be passive, to allow yourself to be turned. So turning and being turned is that little dance that we do with everything that we meet. That's called letting go. So... I want to invite all the members to come to our ordination ceremony.

[41:22]

It's always a wonderful event. And when the ordinee takes the precepts, we all take the precepts together again. We may think, well, I took the precepts once, but actually we take them over and over. And so it's We're ordaining one person, but we're all taking the precepts together. So it's not just something for that person, but it's something for all of us. Do you have any questions? Well, I haven't been a good boy, I think.

[42:37]

You know, when I first started this practice in Berkeley, I said, I'm just going to sit here. Every day I go to Zazen. If somebody comes, the door is open. If someone comes, that's fine, I'll sit with them. We can sit together. If someone doesn't come, it's okay because this is just what I do. So there's always been someone that came. I think one time only one person came and it was on the 4th of July when it was a holiday. And somehow, I sat and he sat. And he said, where is everybody? I said, well, it's the Fourth of July. But he was very angry and he left. But I stayed. So that's what I've done as a priest.

[43:46]

I stayed when he left. But I just always sit Zazen. I mean, as much as I can, you know. Always sit Zazen, but for many, many years, I said Zazen every afternoon, every morning, every morning, every afternoon. And that's all I've done, really. When you were talking about the difference Or you said there's some very admirable lay practitioners who either in some sense aren't ready to be a priest, or they have a problem that prevents them from becoming one. And I was thinking that, didn't you leave out some other possibility, which is that they could be in every way suitable and ready, but for some reason

[44:46]

choose to not enter that definition or wear that costume for whatever reason, maybe as part of their dedication to practice. Yeah, I think that's really admirable. As a matter of fact, when I first started ordaining people, When I became the abbot here, after being actually, you know, I started to practice 67, but I didn't become the abbot until 84, I think. And then my, the students that I felt were most models of lay practice wanted to be ordained. And I didn't want that. I thought, I don't want to ordain these people who are models of lay practice because the Sangha needs these exemplary models of lay practice as models for practice.

[45:59]

And I was kind of coerced into doing that, into ordaining somebody like that. I didn't really want to do it because I didn't want that person to be ordained because they were such a good model for lay practice. But as it happens, a lot of the people who are models for lay practice want to be ordained. So I can't not do that if it's appropriate. But I totally respect the lay practitioners and I don't think everybody that's a good lay practitioner should be a priest. You mentioned the issue of Catholic priests and marriage. Another issue that's swirling around in the Catholic world is gay priests.

[47:02]

Well, the reason you haven't heard the dialogue, according to my understanding, is because we don't make a distinction. It's not, it's not, it's not, we don't make a distinction on the basis of sexual orientation. And there are gay priests, there are many gay, so-called gay, funny word, I don't know what else to say. But, right here in this room. So, I think that because it's not an issue, it doesn't come up as an issue. Although, I remember my, when I was Abbot at San Francisco Zen Center, I had... I'm reluctant to talk about this at the moment, but... Maybe you should honor that.

[48:27]

Do what? Maybe you should honor that. What does that mean? It means it's after 11 and it's a big topic. Right. It's a big topic. But I have to say it was resolved. It was resolved and for and everything worked out very well. So it hasn't come up as a problem. Sometimes it comes up as a problem in various ways, in minor ways, but it's never come up as a problem in a major way that I know of. Someone may disagree with me, but we don't have time for that.

[49:18]

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