So I'll just read up to where we left off last time, and then continue. The teaching of thusness has been intimately communicated by Buddhas and ancestors. Now you have it, so keep it well. Filling a silver bowl with snow, hiding a heron in the moonlight. When you array them, they're not the same. And when you mix them, you know where they are. That's as far as we got, I believe. I mean, we may have got further. If not, tell me. When you mix them... I'm sorry. The meaning is not in the words. We didn't talk about that, did we? No. Okay. The meaning is not in the words, yet it responds to the inquiring impulse." Well, we know that the meaning is not in the words, but yet the meaning is also in the words.

[01:12]

Sekito, our ancestor Sekito, was enlightened when he was reading the Chao Lun. which by Kumarajiva was the famous translator who translated the sutras into Chinese. And his Seng Chao was his student. and Seng Chao wrote the Chao Lun, I think it's called, which is about this subject. And probably, I think the Chao Lun is probably one of the foundation texts for Sandokai. And Sikhito was enlightened when reading that.

[02:19]

So it's possible to be enlightened through a text. The only problem is that enlightenment is not enough. We have this idea when we read the texts about Buddhism that enlightenment is this great thing that we're supposed to reach, and it is. We should reach enlightenment, but enlightenment is not enough. Anyway, the meaning is not in the words. It's true, we have to experience the meaning through our But the words can help us. Suzuki Roshi used to say, as a teacher, we make a mistake on purpose. We know that the thing itself doesn't reside in the words, but we use words anyway, by mistake.

[03:34]

But we make that mistake on purpose. So we know what we're doing. So the meaning is not in the words. It's beyond words. It responds to the inquiring impulse, or it responds to the inquiring student. In other words, the response is through our practice. Right? We keep using the word it here all the time. You notice that in the heart suture we say mu. Heart suture is the suture of mu. Mu this, mu that, mu. Which means no, right? But it also is a koan. The heart suture, every line of the heart suture is a koan.

[04:38]

That's why people get disgusted with it. Because it doesn't jive with our logic. And this is the Sutra of It. It. We're only talking about It. It is like this. It is like that. So the meaning is not in the words, yet it responds to our inquiry, or it responds to our sincerity, or our sincerity to pursue it. Right? And then if you're excited, it becomes a pitfall.

[05:41]

Excited is a... there are a lot of different ways to say it, to express this sentence. Excited... Hasty action creates a pitfall, is the way we translated it. Hasty action. In other words, if you become too forceful in trying to grasp it, then it becomes a pitfall. You have a problem. Because you have to be ready to receive something. So our temperament has a lot to do with our ability to either learn something or to absorb something.

[06:55]

Our desire can be very strong and our desire can come from various places. If we want to gain something, then this is kind of like that excitement. I want to get enlightened. I want to have something. But what is the reason why we want to have something? So if our reasons are simply egotistical, I think this is the excitement aspect. We want to be enlightened in order to impress people. Or we feel that if we're enlightened, we won't make any more mistakes. Or if we're enlightened, we won't suffer anymore. So we have these various reasons.

[07:57]

We come to practice for all the wrong reasons. And then, in the course of practice, if we stay with practice, we find out, our desire becomes refined. And we realize what enlightenment is, we realize what practice is, we realize why we're doing something. So, practice is suicide. But we don't know that. It's like the death of our ego. Our ego brings us to practice in order to find its extermination. So if you're excited, it becomes a pitfall.

[08:58]

And if you miss it, you fall into retrospective hesitation. These words, to miss it is to linger in consideration. So if you go too fast, if you go too strongly, you go past it. And if you don't put yourself into it enough, then nothing happens. You just kind of think about it, right? So there are a lot of different ways to translate this. I want to, this is best, both of these lines, these four lines. If you're excited, it becomes a pitfall. If you miss it, you fall into retrospective hesitation. Turning away and touching are both wrong, for it is like a massive fire. Mass of fire, or massive fire. When we were working with the translation committee on this,

[10:03]

It came out as massive fire instead of a mass of fire. Anyway, Joshu said, what is the way? Nansen said, his teacher said, ordinary mind is the way. Nansen said, Joshu said, shall I seek for it? Nansen said, if you seek for it, you'll become separated from it. Joshu said, how can I know unless I go for it? Nansen said, it is not a matter of knowing or not knowing. Knowing is delusion, not knowing is confusion. When you know the way beyond doubt, you will find that it is as vast as space. How could it be talked about on the level of right and wrong? Joshu had a realization. So I like to think of this translation as if you seek for it, you stumble past.

[11:16]

And if you don't seek for it, you fall into retrospective hesitation. So seeking and not seeking are What's the middle way between seeking and not seeking? That's the point of this koan. What's the middle way between seeking and not seeking? You have to seek, and yet if you seek, you fall into a pitfall. Sheng Yen has a nice phrase which is, I'm trying to remember it, I left it at home.

[12:22]

We have to seek the precious mirror and yet the precious mirror is something that we cannot We have to seek the precious mirror through practice, but... I wish I could remember it. He says, the proper attitude is this, I need to practice to attain the precious mirror, although the precious mirror is not something that I attain through practice. I think that says it all, and we can all go back to the Zendong. If you have any questions, feel free to ask them.

[13:41]

Speak up so everybody can hear you. Okay, I wanted to ask if you could elaborate more on ego because last class you said... I said, yes, I really liked that when I was saying it. Thank you. So it's just a figure of speech to say get rid of ego, you know. If we know what it means, that ego, get rid of ego, means to put ego in the service of big mind. I always think offering up ego to Buddha and then letting Buddha tell ego what to do. So we're always making an offering of ego. I think that's the way to practice, is continually making an offering of ego to Buddha.

[14:55]

So we always ask ourselves, well, what shall I do? Well, asking what shall I do is how we offer ego up to Buddha. And then if we say, I don't know, that's even better, because then Buddha fills the space of I don't know. So I don't know is a very fundamental koan for us to ask all, but there's a problem with I don't know. you know, because we can lean on, I don't know. So not good to lean on, I don't know. But I don't know clears the space, it clears your head. And then what you do know actually comes up, gives the opportunity for true knowing to appear.

[16:02]

So that's a kind of offering. I don't know if it's a kind of offering of ego. So it's a dropping. Offering, it's seen as dropping. You say that there's a danger of leaning on, I don't know. Do you mean that there's a risk of giving up the inquiry? Yeah. It's like, don't depend on it too much. Don't depend on anything too much. If we read a lot, we depend on books. If we sit a lot, we depend on zazen. If we work a lot, we depend on work. So, although we do depend on these things, We should be careful not to be too dependent. There's a fascicle by Dogan in which he talks about when you fall down to the earth, he used the earth to help you back up.

[17:24]

That's great. The problem you have is the problem that helps you. But if you keep saying, well, I'll just keep falling down so that I can stand up, then you become too dependent on that as a crutch. So it's good to use something like that, but not to depend on it as a crutch. That's what I'm saying. In the beginning of the class you said enlightenment is not enough. I'm curious as to what you feel. Enlightenment, as I said before, enlightenment is the beginning of practice. Our actual engagement in practice is just as important.

[18:29]

You know, Dogen says, Some may realize it and some may not, but it doesn't matter. The main thing is to practice. So the main thing is actually to engage in practice. And the other main thing is to experience enlightenment. It's not that one is better than the other. It's like the light and its lamp. If you read the Platform Sutra of the Sixth Ancestor, it talks about prajna and samadhi. Some people talk about prajna, other people talk about samadhi. And even when you read He says samadhi is good, but it's not kind of secondary to prajna. The sixth ancestor says prajna and samadhi are like a lamp and its light.

[19:36]

Samadhi is the basis, and prajna is the activity. So without samadhi, prajna doesn't come up. And without prajna, samadhi is simply quietism. But they're inseparable. When there's samadhi, prajna comes up. So when there's practice, enlightenment practice, in zazen, zazen is samadhi. And prajna, is the light of Zazen. You experience that light in Zazen. So Pragya and Samadhi are one thing, but we talk about two different aspects of it. And so enlightenment and practice, practice is the basis for enlightenment, enlightenment is the fulfillment of practice.

[20:43]

So they reinforce each other, even though it's one thing. Speaker, please. Prajna. Prajna, yes. Well, I would say the basis rather than the quiet, because practice isn't just quiet. Practice is our activity, right? If realization doesn't arise, is it just quiet? When realization... If realization doesn't arise, is practice just quietness? No. Practice is great activity. Practice isn't just sitting, is it? But it's working in the kitchen, right? So prajna arises through activity in the kitchen.

[21:50]

You see all these wonderful lights moving in the kitchen, you call them people. And then he talks about, where am I here? So if you miss it, you fall into retrospective hesitation and turning away and touching are both wrong, for it is like a mass of fire, massive fire. It is like a fire. It is like a fire.

[22:54]

So, turning away and touching are both wrong. But it's like, how do you... Suzuki Roshi used to talk about a lamp, a smoky kerosene lamp, There's a good analogy when we had nothing but kerosene lamps here. The lamp has got a little button that you turn. So if you turn it too high, the lamp flames out and gets all black, starts smoking and stinking. So you have to know just how to adjust that little valve to have the light without burning up the lamp. So, that's our practice, actually, is to be able to adjust that little button so that the fire works for us.

[24:13]

So, we're always containing fire. We contain fire in the stove and in the lamp, but we also have to contain the fire within ourself. So, this is the biggest problem, is containing the fire within ourselves. So we get really heated up about things, and then we flame out, you know, or we don't have enough fire to really get going. So it's interesting, wherever you go, people have a slightly different way of practicing. So there are some teachers who turn the fire up really hot, and there are some teachers who turn the fire down very low. And there are some teachers who just look for how to make the fire work. in every situation. How do you keep adjusting it? Presets are designed to contain the fire.

[25:20]

That's one of the aspects of presets, is that, you know, don't kill, don't do all these things. Keep the fire working for you, instead of against you or other people. Don't burn yourself. is what precepts are about. So, refining the practice so that you have just the right amount of fire to take care of whatever is in front of us and to create a harmonious situation. So, sometimes the teacher will turn up the fire really high and burn out the students, or only those students that can survive will make it.

[26:24]

This is very common in certain Japanese monasteries, where the monks are very young. And so, since most of the monks are very young, they're kind of like just out of high school or just out of college, and they have a lot of energy, and they carry the kiyosaku, or the keisaku, and they just beat each other over the head, all over the body, while they're sitting zazen. And they try to see how many sticks they can break over each other. So this is like turning up the fire, you know. really high. And then there's some monasteries where nobody does much Zazen, you know, they just drink a lot of tea and... like Tassaha. Suzuki Roshi was always trying to maintain the mean, to enough pressure, enough fire, to make it uncomfortable enough

[27:36]

so that you don't fall into complacency. And yet, comfortable enough so that people could manage through their difficulties. You know, we have... People are always comparing different practices. And I remember when we were in the 70s, we turned the heat up really pretty high, because there was a kind of competition to see in, you know, like that place over there, they turn the heat up pretty high, so we have to turn the heat up high in order to be as good as they are, or better, right? So it becomes a kind of ego contest to see who can have the most macho practice. And this escalates.

[28:40]

When that begins, then it becomes a mode. And people are struggling as hard as they can. And then that's supposed to create a breakthrough. But is that really spiritual practice? Maybe. There's a practice to create spiritual virtuosos. And there are some spiritual virtuosos that are made through that practice. But is that really the goal of practice, is to create a few spiritual virtuosos? Maybe. I don't say it's wrong, but spiritual practice or religious practice should be for everybody.

[29:48]

So what happens is, in the beginning, Like in Buddha's time, it was somewhat ascetic, although Buddha himself discouraged asceticism. When there's a small group, there can be a very strong kind of practice. the religion becomes more popular, it gets more watered down, but it includes more people. So, as it becomes more popular and more people, it becomes more watered down, and even the reality or the truth of what's going on gets lost. And you can see how that gets lost in popular religion today, which is driving our country.

[30:52]

So how do you keep the correct practice and at the same time accommodate people so that they can practice without being discouraged? In these monasteries you were talking about, where the monks are like 18 to 25. You have to speak up. In these monasteries where it's a bunch of like really young men practicing together and they're beating each other with sticks and, you know, just making things really difficult, turning up the fire. It seems like it could be that anything less than that would be too easy for them. Maybe, but there aren't very many of them. You know, 10 or 12 in a monastery, big monastery, huge monastery, you know, 10 or 12 monks, 15 monks.

[31:58]

And they only last a couple of years. And then they don't continue practicing, mostly. So, but then they have a reputation. So in Japan, if you're traveling on the train and someone says, what are you? And you say, well, I'm a Zen monk. Oh, very difficult. That's the idea in the mind. Very hard, hard practice. So how do you find that means? Should the practice be Just under too hard? No, it should be hard. It should challenge you. Practice should challenge you. If it's not challenging you, it's not practice. So the teacher should challenge you, but also support you, right? Yes, and also support you. But that's a whole... I'll talk about that later in my Sashin lectures, about how students and teachers interact.

[33:07]

to drive you and support you. And then there's, you know, grasping and allowing. So there's holding tight and letting go. So yes, you know, Suzuki Roshi, when he talked about practice, said, when you begin to practice, you should stretch yourself totally in the beginning. In the beginning, you totally stretch yourself to the limit. And then you find the place where you can actually practice. It's like tuning a string. You wind it up and find the place where it's in tune. So actually, and this talks about being in tune. There'll be a line here where it talks about being in tune. How to be in tune. how to adjust the flame so that it does the right work, and how to keep things in tune and harmonious.

[34:21]

Anyway, yes? Is our lineage a lineage of spiritual virtuoso? No. That's more Rinzai Zen. Rinzai style is like a general leading his troops. Soto style is like a farmer cultivating his crops. So we're kind of like farmers cultivating our crops, which sometimes includes the other side. So, to be strict and at the same time gentle. But if you're only gentle and not strict, it doesn't work. You have to be strict and then gentle.

[35:29]

But if you're gentle first and then strict, it doesn't work. Because then people will say, oh, you're really coming down too hard on us. But if you're strict at first, and then are gentle, you'll say, oh, you're doing us a favor. I wonder if part of Judith's question for me was about the lineage, not in the broad sense, but just like the narrow lineage that we chant. It's easy in that to fall into How should we think of that, if not as the great ones of the line? What is the meaning of the morning chant if it's not acknowledging the ritual? The great ones of the past devoted their whole lives to practice and had a difficult time. Usually the people who have the most difficult time gain the most benefit. So if you have a difficult time practicing, that's good.

[36:35]

If you don't, maybe you should work harder. But that doesn't mean that you should flame out. You should know, you know, so when we honor those people, it's because of their practice, because of their hard practice. But hard practice means different, various things. Strictness means to mean various things. Strictness can mean strictly relaxing. Strictness can mean strictly relaxing. Regarding containing the fire, can you say something with the difference of containing the fire as opposed to negating or oppressing?

[37:59]

No, we don't want to put out the fire. It's containing the fire so that it works for you instead of burning you up or going out. So this is Controlling the fire is controlling yourself without exerting too much control. What is enlightenment? Enlightenment means just having the right amount of light. So you can see where you're going. It means being filled with light. Enlightenment means not burning up and not being dim. Yeah, right.

[39:10]

Like it's so much light. Yeah, that's right. It's like the sun, you know. The sun is like a big ball of fire. But we use that light, but we don't touch it directly. As a matter of fact, it bounces off the moon. And the moon is a symbol of enlightenment. So, We don't use the sun as a symbol of enlightenment. We use the moon because the moon is cool light and reflects a dew drop on the grass. And if you look at all the dew drops, all the dew drops are reflecting the moon the same way. And so The whole thing is reflected in a dewdrop on the ground. So the moon is enlightenment.

[40:15]

And sometimes it's called the hazy moon of enlightenment. But the sutra doesn't say it's like the moon. No, it says it is like a massive fire. So turning away and touching are both wrong. So it does have that quality. The basic nature has that quality, but its reflection is through the moon. So, to depict it in literary form is to relegate it to defilement.

[41:19]

In other words, fancy words just make it harder to... The problem is, once we understand words, we think that we have it. And this is the problem with explaining things. Sometimes people will come and they want an explanation. You know, what is Big Mind? What is, you know... And then you explain, well, a big mind is a, oh, I see. And then they think that they understand what a big mind is. So it's better not to say anything, but at the same time, to say something to help you to think about it more, or to deal with it more. Explanation is not good. If the teacher explains too much, this is one of the problems we have.

[42:26]

We want to explain something. Gee, I want to make this guy understand, you know. So starting to explain, then realizing, wait a minute. They're just handing somebody on a plate, cookie on a plate. to eat, but it's not good for them. And we have fancy words. The sixth ancestor, the platform sutra, the nice thing about the platform sutra is that before the sixth ancestor, when Bodhidharma came to China, then there were the five ancestors, and then Huindang was the sixth ancestor, Daikon Eno. And Daikon Eno is considered the Buddha, the first, the original Buddha in China, from China, because he took the teaching and made it Chinese.

[43:27]

It came from him instead of into him, and the fact that he was illiterate, whether he was or not, I don't know, but the story is he was illiterate. So his understanding didn't come from learning, it came intrinsically from himself. So when you read the Platform Sutra, all these difficult doctrines come up, and he just explains it in very simple terms. Like what is dharmakaya, sambhogakaya, nirmanakaya? If you read the sutras, there are these fancy, lofty explanations of what these three are. He says, dharmakaya is your nature. Sambhogakaya is your wisdom.

[44:31]

Nirmanakaya is your actions. That's all you have to know. Well, it's not all you have to know, but it just gives you the basis. It just takes all that stuff out. It gives you the essence. And it's not an explanation. It's a way for you to embody to say, oh, it's about me. It's not about all these celestial figures out there. This is about my own mind, my nature, my wisdom, my actions. So each one of us is the trikaya. And we embody the trikaya in our actions. So that's kind of what's going on here. Just to depict it in literary form is to relegate it to defilement. And then, it is bright just at midnight. It doesn't appear at dawn. So here we have it again.

[45:32]

And we're talking about the precious mirror. We're talking about light, right? It is bright just at midnight. It doesn't appear at dawn. What do you think that's about? Well, if you read the Sandokan, it is the way we perceive things. But how do we perceive them? Relative and ultimate. Relative and ultimate, yes. And? Meaning what? In relationship to each other. Yeah, in relationship to each other. Well, yeah. Darkness is what holds the light. Light fills the darkness, but you can't have the darkness to hold it.

[46:38]

I think he says, in the light there is darkness. And in the light there is darkness, kind of like, there's this really bright light and you're staring at the sun and you can't see anything. And in the dark there is light, that's... I'm not sure I quite understand that. But I always think, if you just identify with realization, then you're kind of lost in that. And you can't, like, do normal stuff. Like, decide which way to go. It makes me think of Dogen when he says... It makes me think of Dogen when he says, when Dharma fills your whole body and mind, You know, if you think you have something, it doesn't appear, it's gone. I'm thinking when you see things as separate, then you realize there are no things there, it's empty.

[47:47]

But when you're seeing the absolute, then things come forth again. Yeah. Oh, here. I always take that little couplet to mean that it isn't dependent on conditions. Like we normally think if it's midnight, well then it's dark out, and if it's dawn, well then it's getting light. So to say it's light just before midnight, and it doesn't appear at dawn, to me says it doesn't depend on things as we see them, or conditions that we're in. I wonder if the midnight might be I don't know, and the dawn is I know. Well, let's look at it just as what it says. Dark, in this case, means oneness. Dark, in the Sandokai, darkness means, in the dark you can't see the difference between things.

[48:54]

So in the darkness all is one. And in the light, everything appears. When you turn on the light, you see everybody. When you turn out the light, you don't see everybody. So it's kind of the opposite. It doesn't mean good and bad or right and wrong. Darkness means oneness. Everything disappears. All the differences disappear in oneness. And brightness means everything is revealed. So it's kind of an interesting expression. At midnight, it's bright. So this is... It's a mirror. The bright mirror shines in the dark or is revealed in the dark as oneness.

[50:05]

And at dawn, you can't see it because the light is shining on all the mirrored things. And so you don't see the oneness. You only see the difference. So right now, you know, we only see all of us as separate and the building and the people and all of the objects, but we don't see the oneness. We don't see the dark. We don't, you know, we don't see that. But at night, or, you know, if we turn down all the lights, it would be shining in the dark. But the mirror actually shines in both light and the dark. So we have to be able to see the oneness within the multiplicity. Is that probably why the moon is the symbol of enlightenment in the dark?

[51:12]

Because why? Because it's dark and yet there's light within the dark. Yeah, I think that's a good... That's a good analogy. The moon at midnight is shining. It's hard to see when it's really bright. It's hard to see when it's really bright, yeah, because the light blinds you. Blinding, yeah. And so multiplicity actually blinds us to oneness. Yeah. So maybe a way to say it would maybe be that in the context of emptiness, the mirror appears, so it's bright just at midnight. And then in a context of viewing myriad things, the mirror is not so evident. It's not so evident, but it's there. But there's also an element of dawn.

[52:13]

The poem didn't say it's bright But it's like, as the light... I wonder whether or not there's an element of the dawn... Subtlety of... I'm sorry? The subtlety of dawn is... when it's hard to be present with the mirror? Yeah. Also, it was written in writing compass. Need a good word? Dawn seems to be, daybreak, dawn, dawn, morning light.

[53:17]

Yeah, they are, it's... I like what he says. He says, In the light there is darkness. Where it operates, no traces remain. With the hundred grass tips in the busy marketplace, graciously share yourself. The grass tips is like forms, people, you know. That's a kind of term, Chinese term, old Chinese term, like grass tips, like people, things, multiplicity. So, when we study the five positions, I don't want to call them ranks anymore, because it's not really proper, five positionings, we'll talk more about that.

[54:28]

It'll come out, become more clear. So then it says, it acts as a guide for beings and its use removes all pain. So it's talking about the mirror, right? And then, although it is not fabricated, It is not without speech. Although it is not fabricated, it is not without... It is also translated as, it is not a way of action, or it is not created. It is not without speech. In other words, I think we talked about that before.

[55:32]

It's okay that it's something you can talk about. You have to talk about it. Our intellect needs something. But direct touching is interfered with by speech. Sorry. What do you think of that? Although its use removes all pains, it acts as a guide for beings. Its use removes all pains. Although it is not fabricated. The Chinese use the term vexation, that stuff that vexes us. And when we return to the calmness of our mind, when the vexations are gone, then we return to the calmness of our mind.

[56:46]

This is usual way of thinking. And it feels natural, you know, when all of our vexations are gone and those are like clouds covering our true mind, or the mirror, actually, clouds covering the mirror. But, you know, if we feel that we have to wait until we don't have any more vexations in order to practice or find composure, then no one would be able to practice. So, some people have an ability to not create bad karma.

[57:51]

or they have an ability to somehow not have vexations. But most of us have vexations, and we practice with our vexations. We practice with our shortcomings, and we practice with our difficulties, and we practice with are delusions. Delusions are the... I guess you'd say the compost for our energy. We're like compost bins. and water, you know, and turn it over, and, you know, and it becomes energy.

[58:52]

And then all these good things start growing out of it, you know. Yes. Darlene Cohen was here, did her Garmin transmission, and then she gave a talk, and she said, fish swim in the water, and the bird flies in the air, and us people, our medium is, we made an illusion. Yeah, medium. Three walks of great aid and delusion. And no matter how far... You can never leave. So goodbye to the kitchen. The translation we use in Berkeley says, although it is not constructed, it is not beyond words.

[60:00]

Yes, there are a lot of different... Although it is not fabricated, although it is not contrived, although not of the world, Blue Plane, it is not altogether done. And then one says, although not made by artifice, this truth can find expression in the words of those who teach truth in. That's kind of the explanation. Yes. This strikes me as really core Taoism, the great Tao, you know. Well, I think Tao is, at that time, I think the Tao and Buddhism were intertwining. The I Ching is a kind of Taoist text, and Tozan used the I Ching, stuff from the I Ching, and yeah, sometimes it sounds Confucian.

[61:20]

At the end of the Hokyo Zen Mayo, the child obeys the parent, that's very Confucian. So you have to realize that he was Chinese and Confucianism and Taoism were just like we use terms from psychology and Christianity, you know, and our local The thing about Buddhism, Buddhism is a religion of assimilation. And every place that Buddhism goes, every country, it's a traveling salesman. Every place that Buddhism goes, every country, it assimilates the local deities. So in Japan, a lot of the local deities are incorporated into Buddhism. And so Shinto and Buddhism were very much intertwined up to the Meiji period and even after.

[62:32]

And American Buddhism will be psychologized and contained. And when Buddhism came to China in the early days, because Chinese characters didn't jive with Sanskrit alphabet. One was alphabetical and the other was character-oriented. It was hard to translate one into the other. So the Chinese scholars used Taoist terms to explain Buddhism. There's a name for that, I can't remember what it's called. And they did that for several centuries. And so Daoism became kind of intertwined with Buddhism in that way. And then at some point the Buddhists said, wait a minute, you know, Daoism is not Buddhism.

[63:33]

And so they made an effort to, you know, make a separation between what is Daoism and what is Buddhism. And, you know, there's, I can't remember who it was, but at some point, Somebody made this painting of the Taoists and the Buddhists and the Confucianists, all in this happy triangle. Dogen didn't like that at all. But still, Zen, which became the most popular, the biggest school in China, eventually. It's infused with a lot of Taoist stuff, and also some Confucian stuff, which is not bad, you know. It's just that we should know this is Taoism, this is Buddhism.

[64:37]

The Sando Kai of Sekito was originally a title of a Taoist book. And Suzuki Roshi talked about that, and he said, well, there can be a book that the Buddhists say this is a Buddhist book, and the Taoists say this is a Taoist book. And so the Taoists see it as a Taoist book. The Buddhists see it as a Buddhist book. No problem. It's just the way you see things. So one time I brought a wonderful figure, which I think is Mount Jishui from China. And the only thing, and they sold it to me as a Taoist, as Lao Tzu. They said, this is Lao Tzu.

[65:39]

And I said, well, no, it's Manjushri. You know, sitting like this, and he has, you know, a coin in his diadem, in his headband. But the Taoists see him as Lao Tzu. And I see him as Manjushri. But it's okay if I see him as Lao Tzu. As long as he's got the mudra and he's sitting in full lotus, you know, I bow to him. I don't care who he is. Since he's exemplifying wisdom, prajna, I see him as Manjushri. So, you know, this whole thing, this whole poem, the meanings are really obscure.

[66:46]

And people who have done the translating and scholars say, you know, the Tokyosamai is supposedly written by Tozan, and there are many obscure passages. We just kind of have to glean the meaning, or kind of get at the meaning. So we try our best to get at the meaning. And so some people see different meanings. And in the translations, they are opposite. I mean, there's places where they're translated in opposite ways. And we can come to that at some point. So, oh my. We'll go a little longer. I want to go back up here.

[67:49]

to where it says, it responds to the inquiring impulse. Now, I stay here. Although it is not fabricated, it is not without speech. I'll use this here. There is no fixed way of teaching. I think that applies here. It does not, there is no, even though there are, it's not fabricated, it is not fabricated, but it's not without speech. But what is the speech? It's not doctrine, and it's not learning, and it's not teaching in some special way.

[69:09]

You know, sometimes people say, people get the idea that Zen center should have a kind of academic ambiance, like a university, you know, or a school, you know. And then five years you have this, and then 10 years, you know, And so it becomes a kind of systematic way of producing teachers or priests. But in reality, that can't happen. It's not like that. It's like somebody can be practicing for 40 years, and they just always remain a monk. And they won't necessarily be a teacher or whatever, which is fine. But it's not like after so you've learned these things, and then you become a teacher. It's more like a tree with fruit.

[70:17]

And when the fruit is ripe, it falls off the tree. Or you can feel when it's ripe. And that's when someone becomes a teacher. But that ripeness comes from the right kind of nurturing and the right kind of understanding. You can't, you know, every student has to be dealt with individually. It's not like you sit in a classroom and learn something and then everybody graduates. It's like, you know, each person has to be taught or dealt with according to who they are. So that's why a lot of teachers only have a few students. so they can practice with them individually and closely.

[71:19]

And it's not even teaching, really. It's just more like association. And there are opportunities where teaching happens, but they go for a long time. without that opportunity. But at the same time, just through constant practice, we absorb through the pores. So, this is a very important point. And I think that's also coming out in this expressed here. It says it responds to the inquiring impulse. Responding to the inquiring impulse means that when the student really makes this effort, then it's not like they learn something, but something comes out through their effort.

[72:31]

Like if you climb a mountain, And you're really working hard, you know, and you find yourself in difficulty. And then, you know, something comes up within you that pushes you to the top. And so it's not like you learn something. It's like you brought something out through your effort. And then the teacher kind of helps, put your foot there, you know, or something, you know. And helps you, but you're the one that does the work. Of course, the teacher also does the work, but it's different work. So there's no special way to teach. You just teach through what comes up. You just respond through what comes up. Well, I think this is probably a good time to stop.

[73:46]

I didn't get to the blackboard yet. But we will. Gives us something to do before class. That's right. But I'm going to leave right after Sashin. And when I come back, I'll have our study book all together. So it takes a while to make a study book for this many people and put it all together in time and so forth. So that's why we haven't done that so far. uh...

[74:57]

Your intention.

[75:32]

@Text_v004
@Score_JJ