Good morning. You may be familiar with Zen Master Dogen's last teaching, which he called the Eight Characteristics or aspects or maybe characteristics of the enlightened person, which was also supposed to have been the same last teaching of Shakyamuni Buddha. So I think the last time I spoke about this, maybe 25 years ago, doesn't seem that long.

[01:02]

But maybe not, maybe not that long. But these are very important and interesting aspects. Today, I just want to talk about the last one. But I'll read to you what those characteristics are. The first one is having few desires. The second one is knowing how to be satisfied. The third is enjoying serenity and tranquility. The fourth is exerting diligent effort. The fifth is not forgetting right thought. The sixth is practicing samadhi. The seventh is cultivating wisdom. And the eighth is avoiding idle talk.

[02:07]

It's interesting that the last one is avoiding idle talk. Avoiding idle talk is the product of wisdom. So it follows wisdom. So we're going to try to understand what is meant by idle talk. Speaking, you know, is communication. When we speak, it's from one to another or one to many. And then there's give and take. And speaking, of course, is a kind of imperfect way of communicating, of communication. But we do our best. So, idle talk has several meanings.

[03:13]

The usual way of thinking about idle talk is when we're just chattering. and it doesn't mean much. We just have something to say. Because there's silence, we feel that we have to fill it with speech. Did you ever come to the awkward moment when there's a group of people and everybody's chattering and suddenly there's a moment when everything comes to a halt and it's called the embarrassing silence. Why is that embarrassing? Because we suddenly got enlightened and we're embarrassed. It's true. We suddenly had realization, but we couldn't take it. So we had to keep talking in order to keep the movement going, in order to keep the cover going. Actually, if everybody just let the silence be,

[04:19]

participated in the silence as who they were, are, and just let the embarrassment be there, let the uneasiness be there, and just participate in that moment of no self. but we can't stand it, it's too pure. So we start talking again. And so we have this cover of speech which moves things along and continues in the dream, continues our life in the dream world. The dream world is the world that we make up in order to justify our existence and in order to interact in a way with each other so that we can feel safe or we can feel secure or we can communicate and so forth.

[05:41]

in the world of comparative values. But when that talk stops, the world of comparative values comes to an end and we don't know what to do. Fortunately, we know how to do this when we sit zazen. Zazen is to bring the realm of comparative values to a halt and just exist in emptiness. So, in our Buddhist values, we have the precepts, and we have the Eightfold Path, we have a number of lists in Buddhism, like this.

[06:44]

The Eight Aspects, the Eightfold Path, the Six Paramitas, and so forth. Buddhists love numbers. And ten seems to have been their favorite number, because there are all these lists of tens and eights. But In the Eightfold Path it's called right speech, correct speech. Right speech basically means speech which is not dualistic. All other speech is called idle chatter. Speech which is dualistic is called idle chatter. It doesn't lead anywhere. There is dualistic speaking but there's also dualistic speaking with a non-dualistic intent, which is right speech.

[07:47]

So even though speech is divisive and discriminating, we can speak in a way that doesn't divide subject from object and discriminate on the basis of ego. me and mine, you and me, so forth. So identifying with the person we're talking to, we say, I'm talking to you rather than I'm talking at you. Do you know sometimes people talk at you and you talk at them? rather than I talk to you and you talk to me, so that we are both included in the circle of speech. When we are both included in the circle of speech, this is non-dual speaking. But when we divide the subject, me, from the object, you, or when we objectify you

[08:56]

That's dualistic speech. So in the precepts, there are four precepts which are about speech. Out of 10, there are four about speech. One is don't lie. And another one is don't discuss the faults of others. And another is don't praise self at the expense of others. In other words, don't raise yourself up by lowering others down is very common. And don't disparage the three treasures. don't speak ill of the Buddha Dharma Saga. And another translation of no idle talk is no foolish babble.

[10:15]

Babble, I believe, comes from the word Babylon, which means confusion. The tower of babble is the tower of confusion. It's like when society grows so large and bureaucratic and self-centered and grasping and mean, people all speaking different languages, nobody understands each other. Guess where we are now? So babble, useless babble, just talk in order to gain advantage. So I've written down some

[11:22]

various kinds of speech, which I'll talk about. One is helpful words. What are helpful words? Words that actually help, how do we actually help people? We sometimes try to help people, and we can help people, but sometimes, We feel that we're helping people, but it's hard to know what help actually is. I think, for me, the best way to help people is to give them some way of helping themselves. This is actually our Zen practice. We actually kind of avoid helping people. in a sense of I am helping you. If we think I am helping you, that can easily become egotistical and we take great pride in the fact that I am helping you.

[12:36]

So how do we communicate in words something that is really helpful to people, helpful to someone? Sometimes, we may say something that doesn't seem helpful, but actually is helpful. Sometimes we say something that we feel is helpful, but isn't helpful. So, in order to give helpful words, we have to be very careful, very careful, and not just be a glib. because we may turn somebody in a way that we feel is good, but not so good. So sometimes the student will come to the teacher for some advice, some helpful words. Can you give me some helpful words?

[13:39]

But teacher has to be very careful not to tell the student what to do. The helpful words are to give the students some confidence that they can figure out what is helpful for themselves. That takes some sensitivity and skill. I don't know about skill, but sensitivity to say the right thing that is not me telling you what to do. We want to lean on somebody sometimes, you know, please help me. But suggestion, you know, or just a suggestion. Best way, I think, to help give helpful advice is to say something

[14:48]

that the person thinks that they thought of themselves. They didn't know that they were getting it from you. I think that's the most skillful and helpful. Then there are useful words, which are like, well, you know, if you do this, that will happen. That's the other side, you know. sometimes you can actually say something to somebody. Well, if you try this, you know, that might work for you. So that's useful words. Then there are gentle words, like how the tone of voice that one uses in communicating and how you're a person's energy force in saying something.

[15:49]

There's also distance. The kind of energy force between two people where there's the right distance between two people that communicates. If it's too close, things become uneasy. There's a kind of uneasiness when there's too close. And when it's too far, it's like, that's not right either because the energy is not flowing. So what's the exact right space between two people to communicate something? That's very important. So gentle words. are far more effective. Although, when you read the literature, Master Rinzai shouts at the student, ah! But you shouldn't do that.

[16:52]

If you mimic Master Rinzai, it's just a charade. The best way to influence people is with a gentle voice. Sometimes people really need to be, you know, smacked with your voice. That's true. But that's exceptional. It's not, you know, sometimes that's necessary. Sometimes it's good. Sometimes it really snaps a person out of their stuff. Stops the mind. When Master Rinzai met Wong Po, Wong Po gave him a big shout, which meant he couldn't hear for three days after that. But don't do that. And also I said so and so, as soon as I slapped the monk, you know, and the monk slapped him, don't do that. So gentle words are really effective

[18:04]

because they go into a person, and you can accept them. When there's too much force in what you say, then there's a barrier. But a person puts up a barrier, and it doesn't penetrate, because what they feel is your ego. They don't want to take in your ego. They only want to take in your... Buddha nature, your communicating spirit. So too forceful an appearance, a posturing, puts people off. Even though you may be right, what you say is the right thing, but it doesn't penetrate because it bounces off. Too much of a force bounces off and comes back to you. He said, how come they didn't understand me? How come they didn't follow what I said?

[19:05]

So, you know, people shout at their dogs, you know, I'm a rover, come on. And the dog, okay. But all you have to do is talk gently to the dog. Whisper. Do you ever hear horse whispers? You just talk gently to the horse and the horse does whatever they want. These other guys are beating the horse to get in the truck, you know, and the horse is resisting. So then there are harmonious words. Harmonious words brings everything together. Harmonious words settles a person. And you feel like you are in the same space. And you don't have to say much because body language works. And communication just flows without and trying without thinking.

[20:06]

So this is a wonderful way to communicate is harmonious words, words that match each other and you bring each other into a sync. They can also be seductive. So that's a problem. The near enemy of harmonious words is seductive words because that becomes egotistical. And it means that somebody wants something. So when you feel that words communicate desire, that's when you have to be very careful. But to create a harmonious situation. Then there are careful words, words which are spoken thoughtfully, carefully, so that they communicate exactly what you want to say.

[21:08]

Well-chosen words. Master Hua, when he did his translation, translations in the 60s, 70s of the sutras, set out this prologue to the sutras in which he said, he said, the sutras, you have to explain every single word, what every single word means in the sutra. You can't just translate the sutra according to your idea, but you have to explain Each word, so the title, in the title, every single word is explained exactly according to what it means because it can mean different things. Words mean different things to different people. So this is what this word means, this is what this word means, this is what this word means.

[22:15]

It's throughout the whole sutra. So that's carefully selecting the meaning of your words so that there's no ambiguity and no way to mistake what a person is saying. And then there are compassionate words. Compassionate words, you know, mean that you understand the feeling that you're communicating to the person and how it's going to affect the person that you're talking to. So you may have, you may be correcting somebody. You may be, angry. You may be trying to make somebody understand what you mean that's so dense. At the same time, you have to have compassion for the person and not just get angry and abandon the person.

[23:21]

When you just get angry or when you're just trying to get something over, then you're objectifying the person. And nobody wants to be objectified. It's subject to subject. And where both meet is in the subjective realm. And that's compassion because you're taking into account how this is going to affect the person and what your main purpose is, is to connect. We want to correct. but actually to connect is the way to correct. You can't correct. You can try to correct somebody, and they'll try to be corrected, but it's not the same as connecting. When the person is connecting with you, then they will come of their own accord to find the correction, rather than you correcting them.

[24:22]

So this is compassionate words. You always have compassion or try to understand the position of the person and put yourself in the place of the person that you're talking to. And then there are penetrating words. Penetrating words are words that go right to the heart. They bypass all the stuff and just go, right, boom, and then, oh, okay. And then there are truthful words. Words that express the truth without equivocation. Truthful words are words that are grounded in reality and not just ideas or opinions. So all of this kind of, these examples are examples of words which are, which further the dharma.

[25:48]

You know, idle words are words that don't further the dharma. They just further our delusions. So we have to think, when we speak to somebody, when we, or when we talk at all, Is this, how is this furthering the dharma? How is this furthering our understanding of dharma? How is this in accord with dharma? How is this in accord with reality and with truth? We don't always have to be serious. Sounds like it would be very serious in the dharma, but that also leaves room for play. Playful words, you know, are also dharma, but they're not egotistical and they're not, they're words that are free. And within that freedom, there's a lot of play and a lot of creativity.

[26:54]

You know, when you read all the literature, the Zen literature, these guys are always playing with each other. What seems like serious talk is actually a lot of it is just play. And in that play comes the reality and the truth. So when our speech is not dualistic or egotistical, then idle chatter becomes the dharma. Silliness becomes the dharma. But even though when it's silly, at the drop of a hat, one becomes serious. And within the silliness is serious. Do you have any questions?

[28:18]

Mark? An example of saying words that make someone else feel as though they thought of the words. Well, you know, if you don't tell them to do something, but you maybe use yourself as an example. Instead of saying, what I think you should do is, gee, you know, what I did one day was da, [...] and then they say, oh yeah, I can do that. So it's good to use yourself as an example of, problematic behavior. Because when you do that, you put yourself on the level with the person and the person can identify with you.

[29:23]

And then they feel that they find their way by themselves that way. So your identification with the person is a big relief to them, and they feel confident in you. They can reveal themselves to you, and they can reveal themselves to themselves. So to intuit where a person is and to allow yourself to say, oh yeah, I have that problem too, or I've had that problem, or I'm a bad guy too. Then they feel identity with you, and then that helps them to, find their own way, because you found your way, but they didn't do it in their way. They're not doing it in your way, they're doing it in their own way. So they may or may not realize that that's what's happening, may or may not. Catherine?

[30:25]

Thanks for all the wisdom about all the good kinds of words. and think, gee, I'm going to aim for this and this and this, but that's not what makes those words arise for me. I don't know if you could talk about the causes and conditions that allow those words to come. Well, I think that the main thing, right, you don't think about the precepts when you're doing stuff, right, but the precepts are in the background of your mind. to the general tonality is compassion. You always have compassion. You never not have compassion. Dogen's list says nothing about compassion explicitly.

[31:33]

He says nothing about compassion? Explicitly at least. We're in here? So, the whole thing is about compassion. He doesn't have to say that. These are the eight aspects, but compassion is the underlying principle, but, you know, We didn't talk about all the others. He talks about wisdom, right? But the seventh one is wisdom. The activity of wisdom is compassion. So when he talks about wisdom, he talks about the activity of wisdom, which is compassion. the fruit of wisdom, I mean, it's compassion.

[32:35]

Can you tell me the name of the book? Say it, please, speak up louder. Can you tell me the name of the book and the translator or editor? Of this book? Yes. Oh, this book was printed by the Los Angeles Zen Center in 19-something. Oh, five. I don't know if it's still in print. There were three, a series of three books, it's called The Hazy Moon of Enlightenment. It's probably out of print, but if you look in a bookstore, used bookstore, you can probably find it. It's very good, The Hazy Moon of Enlightenment. Yes? Hi, thank you very much for a really valuable talk. I specifically came here this morning in memory of Judith Stoner. I have posted a social awareness on the social awareness part of the board, a nonviolent communication as modeled by Marsha Rosenberg for the Zen Center and for Quaker people, and it's at the Berkeley Friends meeting in Berkeley, obviously.

[33:56]

It's January 8th, and I think it really relates to this this conversation, and it really is about that we learn to look at each other's need and be that one isn't more of less than the other, that there's never a place where we get to talk somebody and leave them abandoned or in shame or humiliated or feeling, you know, attacked or not heard, really, not heard. Both people need to be heard and be mindful of that. And there's something I just remembered in my 12-step program, which I don't go to very often, but that we don't take one another's inventory, that we work on our own. We always are working from our own place. Thank you. Yeah, well, that's a good point, actually. Dogen talks about identity action. which means you identify with the person that you're talking to, or that's talking to you.

[35:08]

And when you identify, then you're really talking to yourself, in a sense, because you're not objectifying the person. And you're not speaking from a higher position or from an authoritative position, even though you have authority and you have position, you're not using position and you're not using authority. And you're simply flowing together and you don't have, you actually let go of position because so that you can be flexible enough to take any position that you need to take. But at the same time, you don't lose your position.

[36:12]

It seems like another aspect of avoiding idle talk that I think about is the time aspect, where even though you might not be saying something that's particularly hurtful or damaging, you're just wasting your precious life. Trivial nonsense that you could be doing something more meaningful. And that's the kind of thing to keep in mind for me. Well, that's true. Think about the time we're wasting. But if we think of wasting time, then that puts us in a kind of funny position. It's like, God, I wasted that time, now what am I going to do about that? It's gone. But I think that you're right to not get into that in the first place. I think the word idle kind of points to that. Idle, yeah, you know.

[37:17]

Once in a while, I'll just sit down on the couch or chair, you know, and just not do anything. And my wife will come up, she'll say, what are you doing? And I'll say, I'm not doing anything. It's okay. I'm just wasting time. Yes. In the book that the San Francisco Zen Center published that commemorated Suzuki Ueshiba's you talked about turning words. About? Turning words. Turning words, oh yes. In my mind I thought of it as a magic moment when someone's words struck me and turned me in a particular way, like the blade of an oar in a current that turns you in a rapid that gets you to another place. That's right. I was wondering if you could say something about the composition of that moment.

[38:24]

Well, turning words are very important And it often happens, it sometimes happens with a student and a teacher, but often it just happens, you know, you're taken unawares by what somebody says, either to you or to somebody else. Like for Dogen, Dogen's most significant turning words were words that were spoken to the person next to him when he was sitting in Rujing's community, sitting zazen, and Ren Jing used to come up, you know, and hit monks with his slipper, you know, to wake them up. And he came up behind this monk next to Dogen, and he hit him with his slipper, and he said, because the monk was dozing off, he said something like, the matter of birth and death is the most important thing, what are you doing sleeping?

[39:27]

That totally turned him around. So, you know, I had significant things happen to me. I was, yesterday, when Catherine was giving, after Catherine's talk yesterday afternoon, I remembered that I was up in Yosemite one time, just climbing up to the falls, and there was some people there, and we were talking to them, this woman said, you know, every time you talk, you talk as if you're teaching somebody something or something like that. And I thought, whoa. And that was a turning word for me. It's like, what am I doing with my speech? Because I think I'm supposed to be teaching, but I'm doing that all the time. And so that made me realize that be careful how I talk, actually. and not give people the impression that I'm always giving them some wonderful words, you know.

[40:41]

So, Charlie? Or someone who has always believed in truth, beauty, and justice. You know, so it's not the person who is speaking, but rather this, you know, quality that is unassailable. That's right. I didn't say that as a Zen master, but somehow that was in my conditioning, even though I didn't say that.

[41:46]

But people tend to introduce themselves in some sort of self-characterized way I've had this. As an ex-New Yorker. 50 years. And I wanted to share something which I found, finally, really helpful, which is literally to watch my always have it there when you're not eating or talking or kissing.

[43:17]

But, you know, I find if I make a practice of keeping my tongue there all the time, and you know, just like when meditating, very lightly, checking in what my tongue feels like before I say something. Because usually if there's ego and I'm sort of pushing at it, the tongue's tight. I mean, it starts pushing. And if I'm not mindful, the tongue's sort of flopping around. But if it's just, yeah, wacky. Then, when the words come out, it's easier to not speak when it's better not to speak and to speak when it is a good time to speak.

[44:25]

I've just found that physical practice is very helpful. There's an old saying, you know, that you should let moss grow over your mouth. And before you say something, you should think three times if this is worth saying. As a recovering gossiper, I was really gossiping a lot as a young person. It's one of the most fun things I did with my girlfriend. It was very hard to give it up because it was a way I related to girlfriends, you know, it's like girlfriend talk. So what I found helpful is that I kind of imagined someone was going to overhear me and how would I feel saying this if someone overheard it. What if you were on candid camera? Would this be okay?

[45:27]

Well, gossip. I didn't talk about that. But it's probably the most important thing. Don't do it. Andrea? I mean, Becca. Yeah, how do you communicate warmth and friendliness without it being mistaken for some, or inviting something that you don't want? That's your go on. I wish I could tell you. But that's the problem. How are you, you know, how can you be, Well, I think you have to know how to adjust the control.

[46:34]

There is a control called warmth control. And some people, you can turn it up high. And with some people, you have to turn it on way low. Well, this person, okay, this one right here is good. And this person down here is good. Because you don't want to attract any more, you don't want to attract something to yourself by being warm, because warmth is attractive. Cold is repulsive. So you don't want to be repulsive But you want to be attractive, I mean, you want to be friendly enough so that you're not cold and you're not too hot. And that's a good place to be, actually. It's like HB in pencils. Not too soft and not too hard.

[47:38]

And to find that place which is not too soft and not too hard, so that you can go either way, but you're safe, that's the safe place. You're always safe there. Because sometimes you have to be a little cold because you don't want, just in order to not be too attractive. But... If by being in the middle, you're straight with yourself, and that's the main thing. If you're straight with yourself, then you know where you are all the time, and then you can do something about whatever happens. That's really helpful, and maybe that was my true question, but actually, What I thought I was asking was, that was really good, though. That was what?

[48:42]

Really good. Wanting to communicate was, if we're not having idle chatter and such, how do we communicate friendliness? If we don't say, hi, how you doing? You know what we always did before, bow. That's all you have to do. We've lost that in our kind of secular Zen. But in the monastery, every time you meet somebody, you bow. Every single time you meet somebody, you bow. And so you don't have to say anything. It's all communicated through body language. It doesn't mean you don't talk, but there are appropriate times to talk. you always acknowledge everyone. Everyone's always acknowledged. You don't pass somebody without acknowledging them. So we can do that. You don't have to say anything. All you have to do is just bow to people.

[49:42]

And you can do that. Nobody goes by unacknowledged. And when you do that, even though you're not feeling good about a person, when you do bow, it helps because you're able to be compassionate without losing, you know, without compromising yourself. A few years ago you told a story about going to Tassajara with Suzuki Roshi and stopping somewhere along the coast at some cafe. The buzz in. The buzz in, that's it. And what I remember was you said how he went in and was able to just kind of chew the fat with the locals. So that came to mind because I thought you can get so particular about talking or not talking, but it's really important to be able to connect with perfect strangers or common people or high society people or people who have

[50:58]

opposing political views. That's right. You should be able to be nobody so you can communicate with everybody. Or anybody. Yeah, that's the criteria for a Zen teacher. You're nobody. As soon as you're somebody, you're no longer the teacher. And then you can communicate with everybody in some way. in a good way, in a right way. Should be able to meet everybody in some way and deal with that without getting pulled off into self-centeredness. It's not always easy and there's a big failure rate. But that's what it's about.

[51:57]

@Text_v004
@Score_JJ