Bye. You probably heard this story before about when Suzuki Roshi was at Tassajara in early 60s, no, 67 or 68, just after we had opened Tassajara. He was swimming, or I mean he couldn't swim, but he was in the water at what we called the Narrows, a place down the creek, a swimming hole, where students like to go skinny dipping.

[01:13]

They still do, mostly the guests though. And so he says, my practice of shikantaza or zazen changed about two years ago after I almost drowned. I don't know if I didn't talk about shikantaza so much. We used to talk about it a lot, but you get tired of talking about the same thing over and over again. But Shikantaza, as you know, is our practice. Hopefully. Just doing. Just doing something without being caught by it. So I wanted to cross the creek at Tassajara. I cannot actually swim, but the students were enjoying the water so much, I thought I would join them.

[02:19]

There were many beautiful girls over there, so I tried to go over there, forgetting that I couldn't swim, and I almost drowned. But I knew I would not die. I knew I would not drown because there were many students and someone would help me, so I was not so serious. But the feeling was pretty bad. I was swallowing water. So I stretched out my arms, hoping that someone would catch me, but no one helped me. I decided to go to the bottom to walk, but that was not possible either. So I couldn't reach the bottom and I couldn't get above the surface. What I saw was the legs of beautiful girls, but I could not take hold of their legs and I was rather scared. He couldn't take care of them because, he couldn't take hold of them because they were either too far away or it wouldn't feel very good for him, I mean it wouldn't look very good for him to take hold of their legs under the water.

[03:27]

He'd be sending the wrong message. At that time, I realized that we never have good practice until we become quite serious Because I knew that I was not dying, I was not so serious. And because I was not so serious, I had a very difficult time. If I knew I was dying, I would not have struggled anymore. I would have stayed still. Because I thought I had another moment, I did not become serious. Since then, my practice has improved. Now I have confidence in my practice, so I have been telling you how I sit in Shikantaza. I think, you know, here is... I don't know what he learned, actually, that he didn't actually know before.

[04:37]

You know, he said, when I came to America, my practice became different than in Japan. Because in Japan, he said, although I did Zazen, I was not so serious. But after I came to America, my Zazen really improved because I started practicing Shikantaza in a true sense. because I had to be truthful to my students. And I had to really get serious with my practice. So he says, now I have confidence in my practice.

[05:42]

I think confidence is another word for faith. So I think he's saying it really affirmed my faith in practice in what I was doing. When you have a critical moment, where you're looking death in the face, then things happen. Serious things happen. You become, you don't fool yourself anymore. Sometimes people ask me, Where did you get so much, how come you have so much faith in practice? Where did that, you know, where did that come from? That you, your practice is so steady and you don't seem to be, have doubts about it. I think it was because practice became a matter of life and death for me.

[06:56]

I had such a hard time in Zazen that it was like facing... it was like a matter of life and death. And I realized I had to deal with it on that level. I remember when we used to have our first Sashins at Sokoji, And Suzuki Roshi had a couple of signs up, one on the stairs and one in the hallway, I think it said, it's a matter of life and death. And I looked at that sign and I thought, whoa! And it was, you know. I'm either gonna See this thing through or die on the cushion That kind of attitude and I went through a lot of Painful deaths before I actually died So

[08:20]

He says, you know, if I knew I was going to die, I would just have been still. And that's how you die in the cushion, you just let go of everything. But until that time, you struggle like crazy. I can remember You know, going through these long sessions, struggling, and I would say, oh there, the sharks are eating my legs now. Or, what am I going to do? Maybe if I pray to God that will help. That didn't help. You go through the whole litany. of everything that you rely on, and none of it works. Nothing works until I just let go. So it was a very interesting experience.

[09:27]

I was among beautiful girls, but the beautiful girls could not save me. And as you know, I am dying because of my sickness, not because of the water. At that time, He knew that he was sick. He didn't know he had cancer, though. And when I am dying, various demons, as well as beautiful women, will be happy to be with me. And I will be very happy to be with them. I think he means here, I'll just be with people, and they'll be happy to be with me, and I won't expect anything of them, and they won't expect anything of me. And it would just be nice to just be with people without any expectation, just enjoying each other. Everything is with us, and without being disturbed, we are happy to be with everything.

[10:31]

Usually it is difficult to feel that way because we are involved in gaining ideas, expecting some improvements in the future, or expecting something of each other. It's very interesting when in the vitality of life we do expect things of ourselves and of each other and there's the future and we're working towards something and When you know that you're going to die, you just let go of all that. And then suddenly, things become very calm and large and a kind of relief in a way. And you realize a lot of the stuff, the arguments, the contentions, the expectations just kind of drop away, and there's a kind of quiet moment, hopefully.

[11:41]

So, when you are not thinking that you have another moment, then naturally you can accept things as they are. You can see things as they are. You will have perfect wisdom at that time. When you are able to sit experiencing Shikantaza, then the meaning of your everyday life will be completely different. You will have freedom from everything. That is the main point. Usually, you have no freedom from the things you have or see, but when you experience Shikantaza, you will have freedom from things and you will truly enjoy your life because you are not attached to anything. You know, the Sixth Patriarch, Hui Neng, says non-attachment is our basic mode. But, you know, we are attached to things.

[12:49]

People say, well, should I be attached to my family? Should I be attached to my husband or wife? Or should I be attached to my my home or should I be attached to my relatives or my friends or my teacher or you know attachment our life is changing all the time continuously changing and we are continually interacting and interweaving and dancing with the people and the things around us. This life is a movement, a dance. And sometimes it's harmonious and sometimes it's not harmonious.

[13:50]

But we create relationships. And we create relationships where relationships are created continuously. And so we come together with things, and we move with things, and we create vortexes and dance, and then we move on. And there's really nothing to hang on to. So a vital relationship is one that's always moving. and that's always changing and that where the whoever is involved in the relationship is continually changing and noticing how the other elements of the relationship are changing. You know when we have a relationship with somebody that person has a background and you have a background

[14:58]

And you're coming from these two backgrounds, and you're already involved in various relationships and attachments, and then you meet in some way. And you see each other face to face, but you don't always see what's behind the face. And the older you are when you have a relationship, the more stuff you have behind the face. That's why most cultures, people get married young, before they have a lot of karma, karmic problems, or before they're fixed in some way, before their ideas are fixed so they can mold easily together. And when you get older, there are parts of you that work, but not all of it. Anyway, so we come together, but people are moving, and they're going this way.

[16:07]

But they also come together and do this at the same time that they're going this way. So it can get very complicated. Because, well, I thought we were going this way. No, I thought we were going that way. And then we get divorced. because the impetus is too strong, you know. So, a relationship, there's attachment in the sense of engagement. So sometimes we mistake engagement for attachment. Engagement is the dance. And attachment is like sticking to some idea of what the dance is. We make rules for the dances, but we can't always abide by the rules, so the rules also have to change when we see that the old rules don't really work so well.

[17:13]

flexibility and space and openness is the key to relationship without attachment. So attachment, that engagement is a kind of attachment. And as long as it works, it's fine, but it's the same with people who are engaged with each other in serious relationships or casual relationships. And same with a teacher and a student. Teacher and a student are engaged with each other and there's a certain kind of attachment but it's not a real attachment because the student is independent and the teacher is independent and the spouses should be, can be independent and when they bring that independence to each other then something vital can happen without

[18:24]

the attachment, because the relationship is dependent on choice every moment. Every moment you choose to be in that relationship. It's not like, now that we made this vow, we're stuck. The vow should be a way to open up a relationship, not a way to bind it. It's like precepts. We have 10 precepts. Monks in the old days had 250 precepts. 10 is enough. Actually 16, but the precepts are to help us to practice. ways to help us to live our life, not ways to bind us in some way. And vows, marriage vows, should be the same, a way to help you to relate.

[19:28]

And also a commitment. So commitments are important in relationship. Still, there has to be space, and there has to be non-attachment, as well as engagement. And the non-attachment is what keeps the relationship alive, because even though there is a vow, it's choice. You're actually making a choice, moment to moment, to work in the relationship. So we get stuck in our attachment. And we also have to remember that every relationship comes apart. Physically it comes apart. It may not come apart emotionally or spiritually, but physically it comes apart.

[20:35]

There are kind of mundane attachments, and then there are lofty attachments. So, when I think about, was I attached to my teacher? Well, you know, I was independent of my teacher, but totally engaged with my teacher. Totally engaged. And I'm totally engaged with him now, but not with his body. He talks to me all the time when I read these lectures. It's like, you know, I not only recall, but I internalize the teaching so that it comes from me. But it's not an attachment. I have the freedom to do that. be independent and to engage in that way.

[21:45]

So teacher and student should engage, but each should be independent, and each should recognize the other's independence. And Sugiyoshi made me independent, made me feel independent, and I understood that very well. So he says, usually you have no freedom from the things you have or see, but when you experience Shikantaza, you will have freedom from things. You will truly enjoy your life because you are not attached to anything. You become really happy and that happiness will continue, which is what we mean by non-attachment. Most of the happiness you have is the kind you later regret losing.

[22:50]

Oh, at that time I was happy, but now I'm not so happy. But real happiness will always be with you and will encourage you in both your adversity and your happiness. So, this is what we learn in Zazen. When happiness, you may feel wonderful, exalted, joyful in Zazen, and you may feel terrible and miserable and painful, but you enjoy both sides because you're not attached to either one. When happiness comes, fine. When unhappiness comes, that's okay, too. You know, it's important to be able to be with your unhappiness. Because being unhappy helps us to be happy.

[23:51]

When you are successful, you will enjoy the success. And when you fail, you will also be okay. Failure is very important. You can enjoy feelings of failure. Oh, it is pretty good. It's not so bad as I thought. You will always have enough and you won't want too much as you did before. You know, sometimes, which is very common, is you'll be very successful at first. You know, when we come to practice at first, we have open mind and everything is new and Although we have difficulty, it arouses our way-seeking mind and we have some inspiration. But then at some point it becomes usual. And then, why am I doing this?

[25:04]

What am I doing here? I can't understand it. And you have this kind of fallow period. The fallow period is very important, not just in the practice, but in any undertaking that you have. You will come to a point where there's a gap, and you have some doubt, and you have some, you know, you won't know which way to go. But that is a very important point, because you have to make some effort to find out how to reconnect. And that effort to find out how to reconnect puts you on the next stage. And while we have this kind of fallow time or this gap, subconsciously the question that we have or the doubts that we have are being taken care of in our subconscious mind. Our subconscious mind works on this stuff and then at some point it presents us with an answer and then we have an enlightenment experience.

[26:11]

Got it now. You know, if you've done some kind of work and you come to an impasse where it just, you know, it doesn't work anymore. You can't, you know, like if you play, playing music is a good example. You come to a point where there's just this, you know, stuff you can't do. And so you just let it go. And then a month later, you pick up your instrument, and it just all comes out real easy. Nothing to it. And this happens in all of our endeavors. Because we come to a point where things get bunched up, and then there has to be a release. And then it rejuvenates itself, or it comes to the next level. presents itself on a new level. So every time we get stopped like that, we should realize this is an important place.

[27:16]

It's not like, well, maybe I should do something else. This is where you have to remember that this is important for your continuation to have this depression or follow time or gap in whatever you're doing. That if you stay with the program, it will develop on the next level, because it's stopping on this level and needs to find the next level, but you can't do it because everything's come together and bunched up and needs to open up by itself. You can't open it up. It's got to open up by itself, by letting go of it, forgetting it. It's like when you want to remember somebody's name, Oh well, it'll come to me." So you let it go, and then, oh yeah, his name was John blah blah blah. Because you let, your mind became very tight. Then you open your mind and it comes up.

[28:20]

He said, if you come to a great difficulty, like a big mountain, in Nepal that looks like it has no passageway, you will know there is a way to get through if you practice Shikhandaza. Even a hundred days of Shinda will not be difficult. Even though you die, nothing happens. It's okay. So you are always happy and you will not be discouraged. And the kind of life you choose will be different. Because before you have right practice, you may want something big and beautiful, like the number one Zen practice monastery in the United States, in the world, even better than Japan. But afterwards, the things you choose and the way of life you follow will be different. I remember Suzuki Roshi talking about we should not be chauvinistic for Zen center.

[29:31]

You know, the Zen Center is this wonderful big place and we should preserve it and make it into something grand. That's not... we have to be very careful because he saw that happen in Japan. They have these big, wonderful museums. They have a practice in Japan that are okay, but often there's no real practice happening. They're just preserving something. So he much preferred some smaller practice place, but he couldn't help, you know, having Zen Center be created around him. He did not create Zen Center. He just did his practice. He just went to Zazen every day and gave talks and encouraged the students. He did not build Zen Center. But it built up around him. So he wanted people to be careful. Very interesting. He just kind of walked through Zen Center.

[30:34]

It didn't change him a bit. It didn't change him at all. And if he had not been there, he would have been someplace else, exactly the same person. It almost had no effect on him at all. So wherever you are, that's the place to practice. He used to say, hell is just another practice place. As we know. He says, sometimes I give pretty serious lectures. I put emphasis on difficult, hard practice. Don't expect the next moment. Don't move. He used to say that. He used to say, At the end of Zazen, when everybody was waiting for the bell, he would say, we will sit 10 minutes more.

[31:40]

But sometimes in the early days, people would sit and he'd ring the bell and then he'd walk out of the room. People would say, when is he coming back? And sometimes he would come back in time and ring the bell, just in time. And sometimes he wouldn't. Sometimes he'd come and people would maybe hear him talking, you know, in the hallway and think, is he going to remember to come back and ring the bell? All this stuff, you know. He was a very good psychologist. So, I'm sorry, but I have to say this because your practice looks so weak and I want to make you stronger. Actually, it is okay that your practice is not so good. But if you are not strict enough with yourself, and if you lack confidence, then zazen cannot be zazen.

[32:41]

It doesn't work. What makes your practice go deeper and deeper is the day-by-day effort of sitting. In China and Japan, there are many stories of teachers who attained enlightenment suddenly like this. That's what it says, U-M-P-H, or like this. You may think it was sudden, but actually it was the result of many years of practice and of failing many times. Gogen Zenji's famous words concerning this are, hitting the mark is the result of 99 failures. The last arrow hit the mark, but only after 99 failures. So failure is actually okay. Very important, actually. Each time you shoot, shoot with confidence. Then you are sure to hit the mark. 99 failures are okay. I will continue to try to hit the mark. That's what I'm supposed to be saying. Each time you sit, do your best. You may think that Zazen is crossing your legs for 40 minutes. But the most important point is to put all your effort, physical and spiritual, into it.

[33:47]

So whether you're sitting, you may just be sitting. Sometimes a lot of you are sitting, but you're not doing zazen. Without the effort, it's not zazen. Sometimes people look like they're sitting, and they can sit very well. without much effort, but it's not a matter of... and they look very successful and someone else is struggling and they can't keep their legs crossed and they're moaning and groaning, and it looks like one is successful and the other is not, but actually the effort of the person who can't keep their legs crossed is moaning and groaning. Their zazen is more authentic than the person who can sit well easily and doesn't put effort into what they're doing. So it's really hard to judge Zazen, whether it's good or bad.

[34:53]

We don't do that. But the sincere effort of someone who is working really hard is the true Zazen. So, concentrate on your breath. When your breathing is not appropriate, it is hard to do any physical work. Even when you sow, your breathing should follow your activity. When you lift something heavy, your breathing should be completely harmonized, or else you can't lift it. It's not so easy to have good breathing. You will need good posture and a good mudra, because your mudra is a symbol of your mental state. If your spine is not straight, your breathing will not be deep enough. Of course, it takes time to develop all of your mental and physical effort. You know, the mudra should be held very lightly, and the thumbs barely touching.

[35:58]

When the thumbs become, fall apart, it means that your effort is slacking. And when your thumbs are pressing too hard against each other, it means that there's a lot of tension in your body and you should let go of it. So, keeping the thumbs very lightly together in the mudra in a good, relaxed state is an indicator of the temperament of your zazen. This fly is trying to bite my... But I won't let him disturb my equanimity. You should have gotten used to that. I remember at Tassajara, the flies, and I remember letting the fly walk on my cheek, you know, and feeling the bottom of his feet, you know, and concentrating on the bottom of his feet.

[37:08]

This guy, it really tickles. Enlightenment does not come until your mind and body are in perfect accord. If you cannot accept your experience as it is, you won't feel you have enlightenment. In other words, when your mind and body are completely one, then enlightenment is there. So that's what Zazen is, to bring the body and mind, body-breath-mind, in harmony. as one with the universe. That's enlightenment. In other words, when your mind and body are completely one, then enlightenment is there. Whatever you hear, whatever you think, that is enlightenment at that time. So it is not the sound of a stone hitting bamboo or the color of plum blossoms that makes people enlightened. It is their practice. in your everyday life, you always have opportunities for enlightenment.

[38:13]

If you go to the restroom, there is a chance to attain enlightenment. If you cook, there's a chance to attain enlightenment. When you clean the floor, there's a chance to attain enlightenment. When you ring the bell, there's a chance to attain enlightenment. When you do the Mukugyo, there's a chance to attain enlightenment. When you ring the bell, There's just this bell, and that this bell, this one sound, covers everything. That's all there is in the whole universe. And then there's the next bell. If you think that there's a next bell when you hit this one, then you've lost yourself. If you anticipate, you're out of yourself. So to be totally settled on yourself, totally settled with the sound, with the one sound, and then with the rhythm, going to the next sound, which is now this sound, is to express yourself fully.

[39:29]

Often we're going into the next thing without really completing this moment. We're going into the next moment's activity without completing this moment's activity. Shikantaza is to be totally in this moment's activity without anticipating the next moment's activity. We have one foot out the door and one foot in the door. Just be on this side of the door completely, then be on that side of the door completely. When you are on this side of the door completely, that side of the door is not present. When you are on that side of the door, you totally leave this side of the door. When you take this breath, that's all there is.

[40:36]

There's no other breath. But magically, the next breath occurs. You don't have anything to do with it. It's really not your problem. You know, the breath comes and goes, so to speak. You just allow this to happen. Don't interfere with it. But this breath is this breath. That's all you have to be concerned about. And when you have difficulty, he says, when you have difficulty, that's when your practice becomes serious. And we find that in Sashin, right? Sometimes, painfulness is so great that we can't let go of it. We can't deal with it. All we can do is take a breath, focus on the breath. That's when your practice gets serious. So inhaling, then exhaling, then inhaling, and just totally be one with that breath.

[41:42]

One breath at a time, moment to moment. So that's the practice, living your life from one moment, one moment at a time, thoroughly. That's what Shikantaza is. That's what it means, just doing. Living your life completely on this moment, burning yourself up, doesn't mean, you know, letting it match. It simply means without splitting your, without dividing your activity, to just be totally on this moment with this activity. and one breath at a time is about where you get down to the nitty gritty. So whatever you do, just do it without expecting anyone's help.

[42:47]

Don't spoil your effort by seeking for escape. Take care of yourself and grow upright to the sky, that's all. That's all, but it's a little bit unusual, isn't it? Maybe we're crazy. Some people say, or some people may think that we're crazy, and we may think that they're crazy. It's okay. We will find out pretty soon who is crazy. Do you have one question? Yeah, Mark? You went through the same experience like Suzuki Roshi did when you became a teacher, that your practice became more serious or you felt some teaching in your practice because of responsibility to your students. Do you understand the question?

[43:49]

I do understand the question. I think though that my attitude has always been the same. But I don't say that there haven't been changes or development, you know, developed. But I think that my basic attitude has always been the same. When I was here for up until 1984, I hesitated to call myself a teacher, even though in de facto I was. But I didn't refer to myself as a teacher. And if people say, will you be my teacher? I say, well, if I'm teaching you something, then I'm your teacher. As long as you feel that I'm teaching you something, then I'm your teacher. But I don't claim to be a teacher. And I think my attitude has always been to

[44:50]

respond to people the way I respond to myself. I would never tell anybody to do something that I wouldn't do myself or that I wouldn't. So I always have to come back to what my bottom line for myself is. And then if I realize that there's something these people should do, somebody should do, and I can't do, then I had better find out how to do that myself before I, you know, so that I'm always being truthful to myself. When you said it was life or death, did you mean life or death? Yes. Did you mean, I have to do this? Because if I don't do this, then I'm going to die? Yeah.

[45:55]

It's like... This is the only thing there is to do, and you understood that. It's like, life and death means to give myself totally. Make my total effort. No matter, you know, even if I die making the effort, to make my total effort. And I remember, I would say, I'm going to die on the cushion. I'm either going to do this or die on the cushion. For some people it's not that hard. What was hard? What was hard? Well, sitting through those long sessions without uncrossing my legs. you know, without giving in to, and then finding a way to get through. You come to the Himalaya, you come to this big mountain in Nepal, and there's no passageway, but you will find a way to go through it, to get over the mountain.

[47:03]

That's my attitude. For some people, you know, it's not so hard. Nowadays, Sashin is pretty easy for people, right? In those days it was harder because people couldn't, there weren't so many people who could sit Zazen easily, more easily. I don't know why that is exactly, but it's because so many people sit well, so the atmosphere in the Zendo is more, it makes it easier for something. Or maybe our Sashins are not as tough as they used to be. No, that's right. That's right. They all sat in chairs. You said earlier that the development of Zen Center didn't change Suzuki at all.

[48:06]

And I'm wondering if he were here now, would he change Zen Center? Would I change Zen Center? If you were here, would he want to change? No. I remember him saying that his dream was to retire to Berkeley and have a small... So he'd move here? Maybe. Probably, possibly. A small place where people could come and he could sit Zazen and talk with people as a, you know, scholars and people, you know, who are interested in Buddhism. And have a kind of nice, you know, place where he could interact with people on a kind of easy level. I don't think he wanted, although he appreciated Zen Center and Sasahara and all that, he didn't want things to grow up into such a big monolith because it's harder to practice that way.

[49:30]

The best, nicest way to practice is in a small place with some good teachers and where people have contact with each other on a personal level. Russ. When Fran Tribe's memorial stone was installed and I heard that there were no longer any ashes for the stone, I was a little sad that I wanted some piece of her buried in the ground. When I came back from my trip, I saw the stone and heard about the ceremony. And quite mysteriously, it's a really powerful mirror and her memory and all. And I realized that, well, the ashes were just my attachment to her body.

[50:33]

And I just started thinking, I guess it's my attachment to wanting them to persist. They do persist, but not in the form that I had anticipated. Yeah, they do continue through their teaching and their spirit. And that's one reason why we recite the names of the ancestors every day, is to keep that spirit of the ancestors with us, alive, and invite them to join our practice.

[51:44]

When we offer incense, we invite them to join our practice. That's what offering incense is. We invite the spirit of Avalokiteśvara, the spirit of Manjushri, the spirit of the ancestors to come and join with us when we do this. It's not like some spirit comes, but it's evoked from us. People like to have relics. All over the world people are claiming, this is the relic of the Buddha. They need something tangible. But I don't need something tangible. Who knows whether it's... It is the relic of the Buddha. Everything is a relic of the Buddha. Because everything has Buddha nature. So you can make a little stupa

[52:48]

without putting anything in it, you know, say, this is a relic of the Buddha. Actually, a lot of the stupas in India had sutras in them. That's a relic of the Buddha. You put a sutra in, because that's the Sambhogakaya Buddha. It's the sutra. And you put a sutra in there. And that's Buddha's words. So that's good enough. You don't need his ashes. As a matter of fact, his ashes just pick up a pinch of earth and there's Buddha's ashes. You said enlightenment is mind and body. No, I didn't say that. I said mind and body harmonized is enlightenment.

[53:50]

I didn't say what enlightenment was. Okay. So, from Ross's question, I was wondering if you have to have a body to practice? You have to have a body to practice. So, mind only, some kind of body? No, there has to be a body, otherwise there's no mind. So, mind and body are already one. It's not like you're putting two things together. It's already one. It's simply not creating a duality between body and mind. It's what it means. when body and mind are harmonized. It simply means letting go of the duality of body-mind, so that when the thought and the activity are the same, so in zazen you're not thinking about something.

[55:00]

The thought that you're thinking is the thought of zazen. It's not about zazen. That's why You know, stop thinking doesn't mean that the thought stops. It simply means that you're not thinking about something. But there's a thought, and the thought is the activity. The activity is the thought. So there's no dualistic thinking going on. I mean, of course there is, but we keep returning to the non-duality of body-mind. So that's returning over and over again, the practice of recollection. Can I ask another thing? You said a matter of life and death, and then you told the story of Tsukimoshi, who actually felt his practice was deepened by a literal experience of almost literally dying.

[56:14]

We don't believe we're literally dying. That's right. How can we bring that to our ordinary practice? Well, you know, when you do have an experience that gives you that feeling, you should remember it. Also, you don't have to so much have a feeling of going to die, but you die when you do something completely. If you face a challenge and you say, well, it's either do or die, then that gives you a feeling for that.

[57:20]

and not attachment. Is that also shikantaza? Is that shikantaza? The relationship isn't shikantaza. Shikantaza is your way of dealing or your way of acting on each moment. Engagement without attachment and sincerity and letting go of engaging each moment and letting go of the past moment so that you're totally in this moment, which includes the past. but is not bound by the past. This is why, this means, although there's some karmic activity, the karma is not binding you.

[59:02]

So there's no compulsive activity, it's simply choice. This is going to be the last question. You were talking and you said that we're talking about the fallow spot or the gap and the mudra, you know, some things that you need, the straight spine and to sit still and hold the mudra. Are there other, I don't know, things that are important when that gap presents itself? I mean... Patience. Patience. Patience to just be with the way it is. Not patience to wait for something, but patience to simply be with the way this is, knowing with faith that, well, maybe, you know, maybe nothing will happen, and being okay with that.

[60:20]

But even though if we have the patience to be where we are, even without expectation that something will happen, something will happen.

[60:35]

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