Good morning. This morning I want to talk about children's practice or adults practicing with children. Zen practice traditionally has been the practice of adults because the core of Zen practice historically was based on monastic practice. But In Japan, especially in the last few hundred years, during the Meiji era, the priesthood was, the priests were pretty powerful and the emperor decided to

[01:24]

make them all become married in order to reduce their power. And so there became a tradition, not completely, but a tradition in Japan of priests with wives and families. And that tradition continued. especially in the Soto Zen tradition. So the tradition that comes to us through Suzuki Roshi is a tradition of married priests who have temples and families. The tradition of Zen in America from other teachers, from Japan also, is mostly through married priests and with families.

[02:45]

So there's a kind of combination of a basis of monastic practice with a kind of dovetailing like this of family practice. But the basis or the main practice that was transmitted to us was practice of zazen as the recognizable form of practice and the main focus for practice. So it's a monastic for family people, a strange kind of hybrid. Although the practice also, in our particular tradition in America, has appealed to both single people and family people, together, kind of equally.

[04:02]

And when we were in the 60s and 70s, there were a lot of hippies who started to practice, were drawn to the practice, looking for a real discipline that they could believe in. Most disciplines, were not something that people, young American searchers were looking for. Most disciplines were anathema to the young people at that time. But the teachers, the Zen teachers had a way of presenting the practice which young people trusted.

[05:12]

You could sit Zazen and nobody was telling you what it was about. No one was telling you what to believe in. So the discipline was the practice. Very simple. And those people who were really interested in practice, changed their life and started to practice the discipline. And it gave them some real direction. Most of them were single people, but not necessarily. And as time went on, people became ordained as priests and ordained as laypeople. And after 10 or 15 years, there's a whole body of people who were practicing and getting married and having children.

[06:19]

And the practice ignored the family side because we were trying to establish practice based on zazen and discipline of the practice, the family side just kind of got ignored. And children grew up with their parents as Zen students, either knowing something or not knowing something, they're kind of out of it. And quite often, I remember seeing children going through stages. When they were pretty young, they resented their parents going to Zendo to sit Zazen. And then they'd come to another stage where they rejected everything completely. And then they went through another stage where they got older, maybe when they graduated from high school or around that time, when they started

[07:30]

creating a little interest in zazen and trying it out. And many children eventually started practicing themselves. Interesting kind of turnaround. But it was only when they could decide for themselves, make up their own mind, when they were in the position old enough to do that, that they turned themselves around and followed in their parents' footsteps. It's interesting how, what an influence parents have on their children just by what they do. And there was never any attempt to try to educate the children. I remember at Sokoji, which was the old first Zen center on Bush Street, which was a Japanese temple. That's where we had our first Zen center.

[08:33]

We had, Suzuki Roshi and Katagiri Roshi had a Sunday school. And the little kids, mostly Japanese, but some Americans, would come to Sunday school and they'd read stories and tell stories. sitting little Zazen. And I remember these little teeny Zafus. But it didn't work very well. They were trying to mold it on a kind of Western Sunday school. And something too formal about it, too... It was a good idea, A little too formal. Children will respond to that kind of formality, but not in their heart.

[09:35]

They'll go through it, but it leaves a lot of doubt in their heart. So, that whole area has been rather neglected And as the parents get older and their children, there are more children that become immature and people have to start paying more attention to their family life and to their children. It becomes necessary to Of course it's necessary from the beginning, but it's necessary to sanction that as an extension of practice. So I feel very concerned about how to include children

[10:38]

in practice as an extension, not even an extension, but to include what's there in our practice. I'm a little hesitant to think about, to use a Sunday school role model. I think that It has its advantages to teach some kind of doctrine and let people know what, let children know what Buddhism is about. But I'm a little hesitant to teach doctrine to children because children grow up learning doctrine by rote. And if they never get beyond that point, then they think, or they get discouraged.

[11:44]

Or they, like most people who leave their religions, they learn enough, just enough about their religion to not know anything. And then they leave it. By that I mean, they learn something very superficial and forget it. So I'm more interested in helping children in a more vital way. So that rather than teaching doctrine, to help them find out something by themselves. In the same way that we teach Zen in our practice. To teach them how to investigate. rather than to fill them with facts or ideas. It's maybe more difficult to teach them how to investigate, just like it's difficult to teach Zen students how to investigate.

[12:56]

We all want something that we can hold on to. If a child asks you, What does it mean to die? You can look in the book, or you can say something that somebody told you, or you can say the accepted thing to say. But what does it mean to die? What will you tell a child when they ask? So children's practice can really help us because you have to be pretty direct with children. And if you say something that doesn't go down, they'll let you know. And a child's question always throws us back on ourselves.

[14:03]

If we don't resort to clichés or doctrines, then a child's question really throws us back on ourself and helps us to practice. So, practicing with children is the same as practicing with anyone else in the world. And we practice along with them, all together. And so the problem is how, if the problem is how to include children in the practice, it means that there's a child and then there's us with a practice. We separate the child and us in our practice. But truly there's no separation between the child's practice and our practice together.

[15:05]

We all practice together. And to include the child in our practice, that's our challenge. So there's really no separation between the child's practice and our practice. It's all one practice, all practicing the same together. We all have the same questions. As an adult, we're supposed to know the answers to the questions. So, in order to be an adult, if we don't know the answer, where are we? The child asks the question, and we don't know the answer, what does that mean? Is that good or bad? Should we cling to some answer, give them something to, sometimes we give children an answer.

[16:08]

It's like in order to stop them from crying, or in order to kind of calm them down, we give them an answer. But if we do give them an answer, we should know, this is just to stop you crying. Best answer for, what's the best answer for, what is death? Is it? Is it? Maybe, nobody knows. Nobody knows.

[17:10]

When my wife was in Los Angeles, she was driving with my son, who's three and a half, and they ran over a cat. And cat. And so ever since, Daniel's been saying, the cat died down. The cat died down. And his grandmother died. Yeah, grandma died down. Grandma died down and the cat died down. But he hasn't asked any questions about what does it mean. Somehow he just accepts it. But there's a little puzzlement in his mind because he doesn't really know what it means. And I can see when he says that, the puzzle in his mind.

[18:24]

But he's not ready to ask the question, what does it mean? So I'm curious to see what he'll say when he asks the question. And I'm curious to know what my response will be when he asks the question. But whatever my response is, I can always rely on nobody knows. Everybody has some answer. Even Buddhists have an answer. Pretty good answer too. In Soto Zen tradition, Dogen Zenji says, birth and death itself is nirvana.

[19:36]

right within birth and death is nirvana. So without trying to get out of birth and death, and without trying to seek nirvana, right there is no birth, no death. This is what we need to understand in our practice. It's actually what our practice is about. But I can't tell that to my three and a half year old son. But even though I know that, even though I know that, know that, and even though I believe that, doesn't mean that I understand. because we want to have some certainty.

[20:50]

Religion is based on, usually, religion is based on some kind of security. If you believe in God or Jesus or Buddha, you have some kind of religious security. But Even though we have some security, still there is some doubt, some insecurity. But the insecurity is not so bad. We have to be able to live with the insecurity that even though I know, I really don't know. It's faith and doubt together.

[21:56]

The other side of faith is doubt. Faith is in Soto Zen doctrine. We have to have faith, I am Buddha. But the other side of that is What do you mean, I am Buddha? I'm just this person with many faults and ignorant, stupid. That's the other side. I am Buddha. But wait a minute. What do you mean? So on one side, we have certainty. I am Buddha. On the other side, wait a minute, you know, just a moment.

[22:57]

And they go together, hand in hand. There are two sides of Buddha, two sides of our reality. So on one hand we know, on the other hand we don't know. Know and don't know. And this dynamic is what makes our practice and our life vital. and constitutes the essence of our practice. Knowing and not knowing at the same time. So I think we need to give our children some opportunity.

[24:23]

Mostly they learn from our example. They also learn from what we teach them. But so much they learn from our example. So two sides. One is learning from our example. The other side is teaching. And they are the two legs. But first is example. Primary way is example. And secondary way is teaching. But the teaching supports it. we can teach them the Eightfold Path and the Six Paramitas in some way that they can understand it. And if we do that, it helps us to understand.

[25:29]

Every time you teach, you have to present something in a way that you understand yourself. So it's very good to teach. That's really what teaching is about, is helping You help someone to understand, but you also help yourself to understand what it is that you're teaching. We may feel we know what we're teaching, but there's no end to our understanding. And the simpler and the more we have to think about it and deal with it and make it understandable, the more we can understand ourself. Because when you give it to a child, you have to refine it in some way. That makes it very concise and simple. So I see this as a new stage in our Zen practice.

[26:39]

Not just here, but all over the country. This is coming up. Do you have any questions about that? In most cases, both parents tend to share the same religion or lack of religion at this stage. But I think because of the way our practice has developed, it's pretty rare that you have a married couple where both parents practice with equal strength and equal interest.

[27:46]

Or the same religion. The attitude of the other parent may be anything from, Well, it's a good question. When you focus on the child, the children, then the whole household has to become part of that. And it doesn't matter so much where you start, I think. You can start with the parents, or you can start with the child. But as long as everyone comes into sync with where you focus,

[28:47]

I think it's okay. Just makes, you know, if one parent is aware and the other parent isn't, by focusing on the child, the other parent comes into the picture, or could, should, could come into the picture. And has to, because it's a challenge to that person, and they have to deal with it some way. There's also the problem of the child that comes into contact with some other religious people from other religious backgrounds. Kids, when they go to school, they're many different religious backgrounds. So, I think it's important to teach children to be very tolerant. Not just tolerant, but open to other people's way and different ways of understanding. That's really important.

[29:51]

That's maybe one of the most important things, rather than to defend themselves, defend their religion, which causes the other person to defend theirs. Pretty soon they're all fighting each other. But to try and find what is the vital element. If you can teach children to find what is the vital element rather than depending on some doctrine, then they can see into other people's very easily, into other ways, and see what is compatible, rather than just defending a set of doctrines. If you teach your children about Buddhism, They'll come home and they'll say, what about God? All the other kids talk about God.

[30:54]

What do we do with that? So if you get caught up in terms, names, if you keep feeding your child names and terms to hold on to, then they'll start to defend them. And they won't be able to see through them. So it's quite a challenge, very interesting, because the whole world is in, you know, what a community, the situation of a community is the same as the situation of the whole world. Someone, my wife went to the hospital and she said, when I went there, there was She did a series of tests, and the person that was doing one of the tests was Indonesian, and the person doing another test was Japanese, and the person doing another test was black, and the person doing another test was something else, Indian.

[32:04]

So, this whole amalgamation of people with different belief systems, coming together is what's happening more and more. So how to create harmonious situation in the world, that's the most important thing. And some real religion will arise out of that. So we shouldn't be, I think, attached too much to Buddhism. We should find out what Buddhism is.

[33:11]

But not attached to it. Not attached to some idea about it. and not attached to our own ideas, just open. If we have a good understanding of Buddhadharma, then we can stand pretty firmly in that and accept other people, other people's ways, without trying to tear them down or criticize them, and make some effort to find out what they really mean. I think the reason, I think a lot of people leave their religious background, Christians and Jews,

[34:18]

because they don't understand the real essence. They're brought up in some superficial way with the religion and it doesn't mean much to them or they hate it or something because they never were taught in a way that they got to the root or essence. And Sometimes, quite often, people come to Buddhism or Zen, having left their background, and it gives them some perspective on their former religion. And then they can go back to their former religion and practice it with a new perspective. I think that's a wonderful thing. It's not so good to proselytize Buddhism. Everybody should stop their religion and practice Buddhism.

[35:21]

But if, by studying Buddhadharma, they can revitalize their own religion through this practice, it's pretty good. We don't need to have big sangha. our big Sangha includes other religions and other people. So there are two kinds of Zen, two levels. One is Zen which you can talk about as Buddhist practice. Then there is Zen, which is the basis for any practice, beyond any kind of philosophy or doctrine, just before religion arises, before religious practice arises.

[36:36]

Both levels are necessary. But we have to, not have to, but it's good to be able to see the real essence of other religions. Not the superficial essence, but the real essence. What it really is. I remember when I was a little kid, I was in kindergarten, it was the first grade, and this old friend of mine and I, we were both Jewish, and we were walking, we were in front of our school, and these two Catholic kids came by, and they said, are you Jewish?

[37:50]

I said, yeah. They said, don't you know that Jews killed Christ? and we're gonna beat you up. I remember that very well. That was 50 years ago. And I didn't really, I didn't know what Christians, that taught me a little bit of something about Christianity. It made me conscious of Christianity. But I don't think I was particularly resentful, I was kind of scared. And I wondered, well, what are they talking about? That's a kind of, when people don't understand the essence of their religion, then they act like that. So it's good, you know, people really, you can help them to

[38:58]

learn something real about that religion, because that's not the essence of Catholicism. The essence of Catholicism is quite different than that. So anyway, who am I? That's a big question. So if we can help our children to investigate, who am I? I think that's pretty good. Do you have any other questions? Well, this goes back to what you were just saying about the essence, the essence of religion before the practice. Because I think it's just part of a healthy child's parents most effectively tune in is just to notice the child's own practice as it comes up.

[40:18]

And it always comes up. Children always have their own way of finding a practice. And then the parent just notices that. It helps them to develop it. Every Sunday, we did something different. A lot of times, we'd actually be studying more different religions than whatever Unitarianism was about. But we made God's eyes. And one time, we'd do a Jewish service. The next time, we'd do something to do with Christianity. So it does, it broadens your perspective on other people. And it gives you a chance to choose what you want to do with your life, or what it feels to you. I like this. Yes, that's a very good idea.

[41:41]

A couple of weeks ago in Tucson, I was invited to come to a vacation Bible school that the church is having sometimes, because they're studying different cultural groups around the world, and this time it was Asia, so I came. I borrowed the case from Brother Luzendo, the Mokupio, and I brought my sutra books from Japan that opened the accordion folds, and the Zahu, and some other things. And there were little kids, mostly minority kids, black and Hispanic kids, from 4 to 12 years old. And I told them a few little Buddhist children's stories. And then I put out all of this stuff, and they had the best time. A lot of them tried out the Zaku, and then they'd ring the bell, you know, and they'd be looking at the books. And for about an hour and a half, those kids really got involved in it. You know, they'd ask a few little questions, but they mostly, I can say, mostly had fun. You know, it was just really hands-on. I had a good time.

[43:07]

It was cute. We should do the same thing when we have our service. We should have fun, too. It seems that the incorporation of family practices Because it seems that the way it has been, for example, like what you said in Japan, was more circumstantial, that monks got married, or they were even forced to do it. But it wasn't something that came out of the depth of the practice. Right. Now, in Shinran, you know, in the 13th century, Shinran was the pure land

[44:08]

priest. And he did get, he got married voluntarily and then all of the pure land people, that was the tradition. Zen, a little different, was different. But there is a tradition for those people being married, having families. But it's a different tradition than the Zen tradition. Do you know why he did it? Yeah, he said In this degenerate age of Buddhism, there's no way that practice will help you. So, you just give yourself over to Amida Buddha, and you'll be saved by the grace of Amida Buddha. So don't try to do anything. Don't try to practice. Why did he get married though? Well, because he couldn't help himself. Oh. That's sort of the same issue. So the point is, you know, how do we sanctify that or legitimize, make it something

[45:14]

How do you make... See, there's still a problem. There's always been a problem with that. There's still a problem. And I think that we have to solve that problem, deal with that problem. That's kind of one of our... It's still not solved yet. The thing is, when you start putting emphasis on zazen, everybody's going to zazen. every day, then you neglect the family practice to some extent. And then when you start putting emphasis on the family practice, you neglect the zazen. So where do you find the balance? Because if you don't really think about maintaining that balance, then the balance just shifts. So it's a big problem. It's a problem. I don't know what the answer is exactly.

[46:41]

We don't know that. But it's a problem that we have. It's not a bad problem. It's a good problem. But it's a difficult problem. And something will come out of that. something right will come out of that. If we continue to practice with the problem, it will evolve. So we have a certain kind of evolution process in our practice here in America. It's good if we know what the problems are that we're dealing with. And simple, easy solutions, there are easy solutions, you know, you just separate things. But how do you do it with everything together?

[47:44]

And you wonder why didn't Buddha stay in the palace and I guess at that time you needed to do that. Right. It's also the reason I guess I don't know what to call it, the concept of Buddhism, of holy family, like you have in the Western tradition. A family is more like a holy samsara, something you need to free yourself from. Well all of those archetypal events, you know, leaving home and doing practice, those are all still quite valid. But so is the lay practice also valid. There have been so many developments in Buddhism, you know, in 2,500 years.

[48:52]

And That's why it's good to know something about history. The Mahayana was a reaction to the monks' practice. The monks had the practice all sewed up, and the Mahayana opened it up. Wait a minute, that's not the only way to practice. We still go through all of the cycles that people have gone through in all the centuries. We still go through all that. in a different way maybe, but the problems are still the same. We just find our own solutions to them depending on our particular circumstances and who we are. So right now, this is the problem, the way we're dealing with this ancient problem. We're dealing with it this way because of the circumstances of our lives.

[49:53]

We don't want to divide it into two, even though the two still exist, you know, the big body of it is. We want to bring it all together. So if we want to bring it all together, we have to deal with the problem. We have to be willing to accept the problem, because we want to have our cake and eat it too. So I hope we can continue to deal with problems and not fall off. Thank you.

[50:57]

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