I couldn't finish the paragraph 27. I talked until one, two, third sentence from the bottom of page 19. So let me start from there. Let me read the rest of this paragraph and I'll go further. there is the radiant light that does not obstruct taking hold and letting go. It is the monk's hall, the Buddha hall, the kitchen, and the three temple gates. Further, there is the radiant light that is neither taking hold nor letting go.

[01:02]

It is the monk's hall, the Buddha hall, the kitchen, or the three temple gates. Also, there is the I that penetrates the ten directions. There is the I that completely embraces the great earth. There is the moment before the mind, and there is the moment after the mind. Because, I'm sorry, if you are not here yesterday afternoon, please delight the translation of the next sentence, because this is Nishijima's translation. I didn't, I forget to type my own translation. Excuse me.

[02:04]

My translation of this sentence is, because such virtue of the radiant light, comma, in eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body, and mind. comma, is vigorous, comma. There are all Buddhas of the three times who are maintaining not knowing, comma. And there are cats and white oxen which throw themselves into knowing. OK? Shall I read it again? Okay. Because such virtue of the radiant light in eyes, nose, I'm sorry, eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body, and mind is vigorous.

[03:17]

There are all Buddhas of the three times. who are maintaining not knowing. And there are cats and white oxen which throw themselves into knowing. Okay. The final sentence of this paragraph. When this nose rings, present and this Dharma I is present the Dharma expound practice Buddha and the Dharma listen to practice Buddha that's the end of this paragraph this expression

[04:21]

the sentence, there is the radiant light that does not obstruct taking hold and letting go. It is the monk's hall, the Buddha hall, the kitchen, and the three temple gates. This expression came from a poem or sayings of Unmon. In Chinese, this is Yun Men. He is a founder of one of the five Chinese Zen schools named Unmonshu. So he's a very well-known Zen master. And in Shōbōgenzo Kōmyō,

[05:25]

Yesterday afternoon, I introduced one saying of Master Choza about the entire ten directions is the monk's eye, and so on. And also, the entire ten directions is the radiant light. Komyo is radiant light. Radiant. light of the self. This entire ten-direction world is the radiant light of the self. That saying is by Chōsa Keishin. He was the disciple of Basowa Mazu. And Dogen Zenji quote in the same chapter of Shōbō Genzō, entitled Komyo or Radiant Light, he quotes these sayings by Unmon.

[06:35]

And what Unmon said is, excuse me, each and every person has the radiant light. All people, each and every person has this radiant light mentioned by the Master Chosa. This entire ten-direction world is itself the radiant light of the self. And Unmon followed this expression and said, each and every one of us has this radiant But he said, when we try to see it, we cannot. When we try to see that radiant light of each and every one of us, we cannot see it.

[07:40]

And he said, ang kong kong, that means it is complete darkness, complete darkness. Then he asked to his monks in his assembly, what is the radiant light? What is the radiant light all people have, all of us have? What is that radiant light? When we try to see it, we cannot see. And he asked the monks, tell me, what is that light? looks like. If you see it, if you try to see it, you can't see it. Then how can you express this radiant light of the self? Then no one say anything. So they just kept silence.

[08:44]

And this silence can be interpreted in two ways. You know, common understanding, they didn't know what to say at all. They didn't really understand. And more often, Dogen interprets this silence as that is the complete, perfect expression of this radiant light. So we can interpret in whatever way we want. Anyway, so no one say anything. So Unmon, the abbot, said for the sake of the monks. And that saying is the monk's hall, the Buddha hall, the kitchen, and the temple gate. Of course, monk's hall is so dark. And buddha hall is butsu-den.

[09:54]

And the kitchen is chuko, zuku. And sanmon. Commonly, the monastery had seven basic buildings, usually more than that, but those seven are very basic facilities a monastery needs to have. One is a sodo, monk's hall, where monks sleep. and practice zazen, or meditation, and eat. This is monk's hall, or sangha hall.

[11:09]

And here is dharma hall, that is hatto, or dharma hall, and butsuden, buddha hall. And across to the monk's hall is zuku, uh this is not only the kitchen but all the uh temple offices are in this building this is called zuku or kuri and d is this word this chinese character and uh temple gate someone uh now The word Dogenrot is san. This san means three. So I translate three gates. But this might be just one gate. Sanmon is a name of one temple gate.

[12:14]

And sometimes this is written as this kanji, san. This san means mountain. So sometimes we call the gate as a mountain gate. Mountain refers to this temple. But this gate was called sanmon, three gates. The temple might have three gates, the front gate, middle gate, and inner gate. But it also said sanmon is an abbreviation of san-ge-zatsu-mon. San-ge-zatsu-mon. And ge-zatsu means liberation or emancipation. So this gate is a gate toward the emancipation or liberation.

[13:27]

Those are one, two, three, four, five. And there is a and is a toilet. And is a bathroom. Those are seven basic facilities in a typical Zen monastery. And what Unmo is saying here is monks hall, Buddha hall, and kitchen, or building, all the temple offices are there. And also this temple gate. This means, of course, these are the places monks practice in different ways. And people are coming and going. Excuse me.

[14:30]

So what Unmo mentioned about this radiant light of all each and every one of us is practice actual concrete practice at each of the buildings in a temple monastery. So this is teaching for the monks, of course. Please. So there is radiant light that does not obstruct taking hold and letting go. Is that the same as the wound and the water in Genzo Koan's wounds? does not obstruct the water, the moon does not break the water, the water does not get the moon wet? I think so, but this grasping and letting go, you know, what Dogen several times mentioned in Jobutsuigi, that is what I think it meant. That means When monks or we practice at this monastery, Dogen said there are two sides.

[15:37]

One is grasping or taking hold. Another is letting go. I think that is what Dogen mentioned. Was grasping and letting go different than the karmic activity of holding on and pushing away? I think same. This is how we use our life to study the Dharma and to practice the Dharma. We have to use two sides. Taking hold means we try to understand what this is and how we should practice. And letting go means we just do it. just practice using our body and mind without thinking, letting go of that kind of understanding, but just do it.

[16:37]

And yet, on the other hand, we have to really study in detail, as Dogen has been saying. These are two sides of our practice. So that is what Dogen is saying here, when he says, They are the radiant light that does not obstruct taking hold. So we have to understand what we should do at the monk's hall. We practice Dazen. We have Oryoki Meds. Monks sleep. There are 13 where your manners or dignified conduct within monks' hall. And at the Buddha hall, we do certain things like doing service.

[17:39]

Or at the Dharma hall, we study Dharma. And at the temple offices, each monk work, you know, they are depending upon their position, they do different things. So there are certain things we have to study and understand what this means. And when we actually do the practice, do each and everything we do, we let go of that kind of understanding and just do it. That is two sides of our practice. I think that is what Dogen is saying here. So the monastery, the practice place, does not obstruct either grasping and letting go.

[18:40]

And next sentence he said, there are those places or facilities That is neither taking hold nor letting go. That means that is how we use this place to study ourselves, to practice Dharma. But from that place that is from our from our side this is a practice place but from that place it has nothing to do with taking hold or letting go that is what we are doing but this is just uh in a sense buddha's land purely you know this is you know like a skavati the pure land only, you know, Buddha practice, Buddha's practice.

[19:45]

So this is not like a school to educate monks. From one side, this is a school or a practice center. We study and practice. But from other side, this is just as they are. Please. But there is no radiant light outside of taking hold and letting go. Yes, of course. So this is two sides of seeing one reality. It's not two separate things. OK. And next he said, also there is the I that penetrates the ten directions. This is same as what Choza said. This entire ten-direction world is nothing other than monk's eye.

[20:47]

So this entire network of interdependent origination in which we are just one knot of this net, this is nothing other than one single eye of a monk. So this entire world is one I. So there is the I that penetrates the ten directions. This reality itself is I, Buddha's I, or monk's I, or Dharma I. And there is the I that completely embraces the great us. This is the same I. completely embrace the great us. I mean, within this network, there are many different things, you know, mountains, rivers, oceans, and forests, and all living beings.

[21:54]

I embrace all those individual things, all these knots in the entire net. That is the radiant light. of each and every being. So each and every being has radiant light and also divinity. Because everything is connected and being as one. And this oneness of the reality is Buddha's Dharma body. So we are the part of the Dharma body of Buddha. That is the source of divinity and beauty of each and every being, including ourselves. And I don't really understand the next sentence. It says, there is a moment before the mind and there is a moment after the mind. This moment is my addition.

[22:59]

What he wrote is there is before of this sin and there is after of this sin. So I don't understand what this means. I think this is a capital M mind. And there is something before this capital A mind and something after this mind. I'm not sure he is saying about the time or not, but I temporarily put moment. That means I try to read this as a time. He's talking about time. This is entire network. of interdependent origination. And as Dogen said in the Shôbōgenzō Sansuikyō, you know, this is also called a mountain, and this mountain works.

[24:08]

That is what Dogen discussed about Sansuikyō or mountains and water sutra. So this mountain is not a fixed mountain. This is working within time. And it might be there is a before and after. And yet maybe he didn't say, but he said in Genjo Koan, this before and after is cut off. Maybe that is what he tried to say, but I am not sure. Excuse me. If this is not about the time, I don't really understand what this sentence means, the before and the after of this mind. What is that? It's really a mystery to me.

[25:12]

Please. Is it possible that the before and after are adjectives for the mind? So that you're talking about the before mind and the after mind? What does that mean? The state of the mind before and the state of the mind after. Oh, the condition of our mind? In that case, this is not a big M mind, but a small M mind. Is that a movement of our psychological mind? Is that what you are trying to say? I'm not sure. Yeah, I'm not sure. He didn't say. So we have to interpret. That is a problem or a difficulty when we read Dogen's writing. He just expresses. He doesn't explain. That's a problem. Please. I wonder if it might be like a way of saying there is also no mind. Like there is before the mind that he's, you know, taking the dispatch.

[26:18]

There's also after it. Well, because Dogen said nothing, so we have, we can, we have authority to interpret whatever we want, whatever way we want. But this is one of the interpretation, possible, I think, possible interpretation from my understanding. Please. Yershi, did Dogen's disciples, As far as we know, the folks that actually heard him give these Dharma talks, did his disciples write commentaries? Yes, one of them. Unfortunately, only one of them. One of the disciples of Dogen was Senne. Senne. After Dogen Zenji died, Senne left Eheiji and returned to Kyoto.

[27:20]

And he founded a small temple named Yokoji. Yokoji. And Senne and his disciple was Kyogo. Kyogo. Those two people, Dogenzen's disciple Senne was considered to be one of his Dogen's Dharma heirs. And his disciple Kyogo, it said when he was young, very young, he practiced with Dogen Zenji before he died. And both of them wrote, made a commentary on 75 chapters of Shogogenzo. and it's still available so this this they are they are commentaries called uh commonly called gosho gosho and their commentaries as difficult as dogans writing

[28:31]

No, I made only their commentary on Genjo Koan only. And once I had a class here about their commentary on Genjo Koan. So if you want, I can give my translation to you. Yes, so there is one, but it's not so helpful to us. Is there any way of knowing if Dogen's disciples understood what he was saying? I think so, at least in their ways. Whether what Dogen wanted to say and what his disciples understood might be, I don't know, whether they are completely the same or different. There's no guarantee. So it won't be... Do you notice that Ejo took note of what Dogen said?

[29:46]

Zuimonki is a record of Dogen's informal talk to his monks, so it's not a commentary. But I think at least Ejo understood what Dogen taught. the oldest disciple of Dogen and success. He was the second abbot of Eiheiji. So Eijo took over Dogen's position after Fendogen died. And I think Eijo devoted his entire life after Dogen's death to keep Shobo Genzo without losing anything. So he copied and compiled. So we have to really appreciate Ejo's effort to keep Dogen's writings.

[30:50]

And yet Ejo himself was a very quiet person. He wrote only one writing in his entire lifetime. He lived until 84 or 85. So he lived much longer than Dogen Zenji, 20, more than, I think, about 30 years after Dogen Zenji's death. So we need to really appreciate Eijo's devotion to keep Dogen Zenji's writings. But he himself wrote only one writing. And interesting, the title of his only one writing is Koumyou. or Kōmyōzōzanmai. Dogiven's corpse is as another Jijōyūzanmai.

[31:57]

but Kong Ejo called the same practice as Ho-myo-zo-zen-mai, the samadhi of the treasury of this radiant light. I'm not sure there's an English translation or not. Do you? Mind? Ho? Ho? I didn't know that. Thank you. So if you are interested, please read that book. So, of course, Ezio Zenji's understanding of practice is from Dogen Zenji's. And the main point is this radiant light. You know, each one of us has radiant light that has very entire ten directions. And that is our zazen.

[32:59]

So this is the very same idea with Dogen Zenji's Jijo-Zanmai. When we sit, this entire ten-direction world becomes enlightenment. So the self and this entire universe are connected and one. penetrate each other. Excuse me. And next sentence, my translation is as I said, because such virtue of the radiant light, this ko-myo, the virtue of the radiant light in eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body, and mind. Those are, of course, six sense organs of our body.

[34:02]

Right? So our body emits this radiant light. And this light is vigorous. That means vital, vivid. It's living. It's not a dead light, but it's a burning light. He said, there are all Buddhas over three times. That means within the practice using these six sense organs, using this entire body and mind. There are all Buddhas over three times within our practice using our body and mind. And those Buddhas are maintaining not knowing.

[35:08]

Not knowing is And then he said, there are cats and white oxen which throw themselves into knowing. This knowing is . Kyaku chi u. Fu chi u is not no, and u is being or is.

[36:13]

And kyaku is rather, and chi is same chi and same u. Of course, probably many of you know this expression. This is from the saying of Nansen Fugan. Do you know Nansen? Nanchuan. He was another very famous and important Zen master in China who was the disciple of Baso or Mazu. His saying, I think, appeared in the Shoryo-roku, case 69 69 the main case is his statement nonsense saying not so long it's quite short said all buddhas over three times do not know it is

[37:21]

do not know it is it is it translation this and rather rather cats and white oxen know it is no it it is that's all nothing said All Buddhas in the three times do not know it is. And rather, cats and the white oxen knows it is. And this expression, according to Dogenzen's biography, when Dogenzen was a teenager, A few years after he became a monk in Tendai tradition, he had a question, a very basic question.

[38:30]

If all of us are already enlightened or have Buddha nature, why all Buddhas have to go through difficult practice, study and practice? Why Buddhas allow the body, mind and practice and attain awakening. That was according to his biography. Now many scholars doubt he had such a question when he was a teenager. Excuse me. And it said Dogen Zenji visited many teachers in Tendai school and also outside of Tendai school. And one of the teachers he visited me there recommended him to visit Eisai. That was the first time Dogen Zenji visited Eisai.

[39:32]

Eisai was the first Japanese master who went to China and transmitted Chinese Zen to Japan. And he founded a first Zen monastery in Japan named Keninji. So the biography, Dogen Zenji's biography said, when Dogen Zenji was 15 years old, he visited Eisai and gave that question. And the biography said, Eisai's answer is this nonsense saying to his question, why Buddhas and ancestors? to allow the bodhicitta practice and attain enlightenment or awakening. The Zen Master Eisai said, all Buddhas of three times know it is, and rather, I'm sorry, don't know it is.

[40:40]

Rather, cats and white oxen, the animals, knows what it is. That was Eisai's answer to Dogen's question. And many scholars, again, doubt this encountering. Because when Dogen was 15, that was 1215. And that was the year Eisai died. And many scholars think he died not in Kyoto, but in Kamakura. so he couldn't be in Kyoto, so Dogen Zenji couldn't meet him. So we don't know. Anyway, so this saying has something to do with Dogen Zenji's life. Anyway, the meaning is, you know, All Buddhas in three times do not know it is.

[41:43]

It's the same as Dogen Zenji said in Genjo Koan. When Buddhas are truly Buddhas, they don't know whether they are Buddhas or not. But they are Buddhas, so they keep actualizing or verifying Buddha. So when they are Buddha, they don't know that they are Buddha. But they keep practicing Buddha, keep practicing as Buddha. So Buddha's conduct is what this means. So Buddha naturally practice Buddha's conduct without knowing that they are Buddhas. Please. So is the corollary of that, the corollary of what you just said, If I know that I'm a Buddha, if I know, oh, I'm a Buddha... Then you are not Buddha. Right.

[42:44]

That is cats or white oxen. Cats and white oxen refer to karmic self. You know, we know, we want to know and we know what we are doing. That is one side of our practice as a human being, to grasp, to take hold. and we try to know what i'm doing and where we are but according to this expression that is the practice of cat and white oxen that is a karmic side of ourselves and as a buddha we don't know please so then joshua asked when he is a student that how do I know it's the way? Joshu said, I think in that, Joshu was the student and Joshu asked to Nansen, Nansen, right?

[44:00]

Nansen, his teacher. And Nansen said the way had nothing to do with knowing or not knowing. Right? Yes. I think so. So please. Just to clarify, do the scholars doubt that Yogan and Nephi ever met at all? No. No. No, they don't doubt? Many of the scholars think they never meet each other. They didn't have chance. Traditionally, Dogen met Eisai when he was 15. That was one year after he became a monk. No, two years. He became a monk when he was 13. And traditionally, after Dogen met Eisai, he started to practice Zen at Kenrinji.

[45:01]

But these days, scholars think Dogen Zen stayed at Mount Hiei until he was 17 or 18. He started to practice with Myozen when he was 18. So there's no evidence, but from reading many different manuscripts about his life, Currently scholars think Dogen never met Eisai, but he started to practice with Myozen when he was 18. So he practiced and studied Tendai teaching for four years instead of two years. Okay. So, Fat, your question. What does it mean when Nansen said it is not a matter of knowing or not knowing.

[46:03]

What do you think that means? I think it's the same as it does not obstruct taking hold and letting go. Taking hold is to know, and letting go is not knowing. But in our case, as Fath Dogain is saying in this sentence is, You know, within this gyōbutsu, our practice, within our practice as gyōbutsu, there are two sides, and both, all of us, over three times, and cats and white oxen are there. So from one side, we try to know, and from another side, you know, never know. But in the case of nonsense, answer I think knowing delusion and not knowing is something like blank the mind doesn't work so neither both are not not positive in the case of nonsense answer that means this

[47:25]

the total reality of the Ten Direction world has nothing to do with knowing or not knowing. I think that is the meaning of Nansen's saying. But in the case of Gyōbutsu in Dogen's teaching, we have both sides, not knowing and knowing. So I think that is the difference between Nansen's answer and what Dogen Zenji is saying in this text as a practitioner, which has both Buddha nature and karmic nature, and both are 100 percent. Please. Does that feel very much like the Sandokai? Sandokai. Which part of Sandokai? I'm just wondering if the phrase, cats and white option, is that related to the line that said, because there are house, cat, and cow?

[48:34]

Is that what it refers to here? Fatt is a word in Sandokai. Do you know? Oh, . Yeah, same thing. Yes. That means a karmic side of our life as a particular person, limited within time and space, and with this condition of these five skandhas. That is, you know, entirety of our life. But this life is directly connected with this, you know, ten-direction world. In that sense, we are part of this dharma body of Buddha. So Dogen is always talking from this side and this side. And within our practice we have both sides. And both sides are 100 percent.

[49:41]

So this is not really side. Both are 100 percent. So we are both completely one. and yet completely separate. That is what he wants to say throughout this writing. Buddha nature and karmic nature are completely same, and yet because they are completely the same thing, they never meet each other. So from one side, our practice is entirely Shohaku's practice using Shohaku's body and mind. But from other side, there's no such things called shōhaku or shōhaku's body and mind. So it is a practice of Buddha. Please. But we can't know that side. We can never experience it or know. If we know, that knowing is this side.

[50:45]

So what we are doing is trying to understand both sides from this side. That is what we do when we study the text. And when we really sit in the zendo, we forget all these words and just sit. Okay? And that sitting is a manifestation of, you know, all Buddhas in three times and also, you know, this cat and hoid, oxen, at the same time. Just to go a little further with what Ed said, so it is nothing in our experience that is the other side.

[51:47]

Because the other side is outside of our experience. Anything in our experience is this side, is this place. Well, I think all experience is that side. And our thinking or memory or whatever, oh, I have that experience. Now I'm experiencing it. That is thinking. And that thinking is this side. And when the person who is thinking and the person who is experiencing is separate, then Buddha disappeared. This is a function of our karma, a function of our five senses. So we cannot, we can never grasp it and say, I experience. I believe that was what Joshu was asking when he said, how do we know it's the way, or how do we know it's the way? He was referring to how can we understand, how do we know what the way is, if the way is, by definition, outside of anything we can say about it or know about it?

[53:02]

So Nansen's answer is there's no way to know. Practice Buddha. Yeah, it's there, but we cannot know. When we try to know, we lose it. But when we just do it, then it's completely there. The problem, how did he know that? That is my question. That is my question. Right. Yeah. So that is a very good koan, how he knew it. Fear is it? Okay. You know, I want to be like the generation. I don't know. I know. I want to be... Yeah, somehow it came up from my life force. And I don't know where that desire or wish or vow came from.

[54:08]

We really don't know. And as our expression, which I'm going to say, that is from the bottom of our life force, as like all the plants try to grow toward the sun. Before thinking, we have energy to grow toward the sun, to the healthy way, I think. Please. I was wondering what that you're pointing to, and it feels like transmission. Mm-hmm. Yeah, this student and teacher and student, and what is and why that kind of thing can be transmitted. Yeah, that is a very good question. OK. Last sentence of this paragraph is, when this nose ring is present, nose ring is a hubby.

[55:18]

This is a kind of a common expression in Zen literature. A hobby is, you know, when farmers use a white oxen or cow, made a hole on their nose and put a ring here to, you know, pull the cow. So that is something that allow or make the cow walk in certain way. That is something which leads our direction. That is nose ring is present and this dharma eye is present. So he said, habi and ganzei. Ganzei is another expression of eyes. The Dharma expounds the practice of Buddha, and the Dharma listens to the practice of Buddha. The practice of Buddha means our practice, and Dharma means the million dharmas.

[56:44]

So when we practice, the Dharma expounds the practice of Buddha, and the practice of Buddha Dharma expound practice Buddha to practice Buddha, to the practitioner. And Dharma listen to practice Buddha means practice Buddha expound Dharma and Dharma listen to it. So when we practice understanding this no-doing, this means that direction we should go. And ganze means dharma eye, to see this structure of our life. That is a combination of individuality and universality, where moment by moment thing and eternity are really one thing or connected.

[57:46]

And those two sides are expressed within one practice at one moment, right now, right here. if we know that structure of our life, then Dharma and Buddha are expanding each other, supporting each other. That is what Dogen Zenji really wants to say. So I think this is a conclusion of this writing, Gyōbutsu Igi. Gyōbutsu, our practice expanding Dharma, and all dharmas expanding this practice Buddha together, each other. What the verb here is, to listen? Dharma listen to, yes. So expanding or speaking and listening. There are two sides. And the rest of this writing is Dogen Zenji's, how can I say,

[58:52]

comments, he quotes three Zen masters saying about frame and Dharma or Buddha. And he analyzed these three people's sayings as evidence of what he's saying in this sentence. Dharma expound Buddha, and Buddha expound Dharma. It's 11.05, so I don't think I have time to complete, finish this writing, but maybe I have time to introduce and speak a little bit of those three people's sayings and an important part of Dogenzen's comment on those three people's sayings.

[59:53]

So let me read the next three paragraphs. First, Dogenzen's quote, setpo gison, Maybe I don't need to write. Zen Master Zhuang Zhuang of Mount Shufen. This is seppō. Shufen is seppō in Japanese. To the assembly. All Buddhas in the three times are abiding within the frames and turning the great Dharma wheel. And next. Great Master Zhou Yi of Xuansha Monastery. This person is usually called Gensha. Xuansha is a Chinese translation for this Japanese pronunciation, Gensha.

[60:59]

Genshashibi. And this is the master whose said, you know, the entire Ten Direction world is one piece of bright jewel. And Dogen Zenji respected Gensha, and his teacher was Seppo, or Shofen. And from Shofen's lineage, two schools of Chinese Zen appeared. One is Unmon, Another is Hōgen, Hōgenshū. So Seppo was a really important Zen master in the history of Chinese Zen. And Gensha was Seppo's disciple. And what Gensha said is, excuse me, While the frames are expanding the Dharma to all Buddhas in the three times, all Buddhas in the three times are standing on the ground and listening to the Dharma.

[62:18]

In the case of Seppo, he said, all Buddhas in the three times are expanding Dharma within the frame. And Gensha said, the flames are expanding Dharma to all Buddhas in the three times. Then all Buddhas are standing on the ground and listening to the Dharma talk by this flame. And third is Engo, Zen Master Yuan Wu. Yuan Wu is a Chinese pronunciation for Engo. And his name was Kokugon, Engo Kokugon. This is a very well-known Rinzai Zen master in Song China. And this is a person who compiled the Hekiganroku, or Blue Cliff Record.

[63:30]

So he is a Rinzai Zen master, and yet Dogen Zenji very much respected Engo. And Engo was one of the Zen masters Dogen Zenji called with the, not the title, but expression, Ancient Buddha or Kobutsu. And these three statements appeared in the record of Engo Kokugon's sayings. In the Keitoku Dentoroku or the record of Dharma Lamp, the story is really different. Gensha said something different. And Unmon said what Gensha is saying in this story. So we don't know which is original. Anyway, Dogen Zenji used the version from Engo's record.

[64:34]

So this person, Engo, said, he said about these two state sayings by Seppo and Gensha, I thought this person was Hou Bai in Chinese and in Japanese Kōhaku. But there was another person who is Hou Hei or Kōhaku. Excuse me. They expounded Dharma one after another. Gods appeared and demons vanished. Blazing flame covers the entire sky. The Buddhas are expanding the Dharma. The entire sky is in the blazing flames.

[65:40]

The Dharma is expanding the Buddha. Before the wind blows, The nest of entanglement has been cut off. With one single word, Vimalakirti was examined and defeated. This is the comment, Ngo's comment on these two Zen masters' sayings about frame and Buddha. So the first original person was Xu Feng or Seppo. He said this on the occasion of the day, the first day of the winter. On that day, in the monks' hall, they first set a furnace.

[66:43]

That is usually a square box filled with ash, and they put some charcoal on it to heat the zendo. And that is the first day of tenth month. First day of tenth month in lunar calendar is about beginning of November in solar calendar. So it was quite cold. So until then, no matter how cold it was, they sat without any heating. So when the furnace was set, the monks in the monks' hall were kind of released. And that was the day also. During the summer, the entrance of Zendo is screened.

[67:50]

Screened? So the wind can come in. But after this day, they put the entrance of zendo, something like a curtain, to keep the warm air inside the zendo. So they thought something about, you know, to make the environment of sitting, not only sitting, but for monks, sleeping and eating there. So on this day, I think monks were very happy. And that was the occasion this Seppo, the Master Seppo, said this saying. So this frame is not something abstract, but the fire in the furnace, in the dendro. So this is something very close and familiar with the monks, this very concrete thing.

[68:58]

that you know that seppo is talking about he's not talking about some uh philosophy of course in the in the buddhist philosophy fire can make can differ two or three important things one first one might be uh the fire on the burning house of three world from the lotus sutra I think the third chapter of the Lotus Sutra, there's a story. In a very old house, children are praying, and a father went somewhere. And when he returned, he found that huge old house was burning, but the children are enjoying themselves with some toys. And even when the father asked them to get out, they didn't get out.

[70:00]

That is the parable of the people in the three worlds. Even though the entire house is burning, somehow we enjoy it within the three worlds, world of desire. When we get something that fulfills our desire, we feel so happy. and we don't want to get out of that realm. So this fire could refer to the three worlds, the fire that is burning the three worlds. And this burning also means impermanence. And another way this fire or flame is used in Buddhist teaching is a fire of prajna. That means the prajna burns all our desires and delusions.

[71:06]

And this fire is mentioned in Hokkyo Zenmai, the Song of Jewel Mirror Samadhi. You know, this massive, that is a saying. So this is one mass of the fire. This means this entire ten-directional world is a fire. We cannot touch this because we are inside of it, and we cannot get out of this. We cannot leave the fire. We cannot do anything because this is where we live, and this is our life. So that is another meaning of this fire could mean. So I think these are the same fire, the fire burning the three worlds, and the fire of the prajna and the fire of this entire ten directions is the same fire.

[72:11]

Please. Could it be even a thousand years later that we could understand Shui Fung as Not exactly joking, but kind of. It's a very intimate comment. Everybody's freezing. Yeah. And then there's this stone. They are released. The stone. Right. So I think the monks were very happy about that saying. So this is not our... Yeah. So fire is also a Buddha's compassion. Help us to sit in the cold air, please. So you refer to the mind example as bio-divermier in talking about chromium? Yeah, this can mean anything. I mean, as I said, he doesn't explain, so we can interpret in any way.

[73:19]

whether it's right or wrong. So in a simple thing, you know, this fire in the fireplace in the monk's hall, expounding the Dharma. I mean, all the Buddhas in the three times are expounding the Dharma within this frame. And what Dogen is saying in his comment is, uh sepo is saying the place the place where three all buddhas are expanding dharma but the place and the and the dharma and buddhas are all same thing so it there is only this mass of the fire and within this one seamless mass of the fire there is a buddha Dharma and Buddha and Dharma.

[74:23]

So, fire and Buddha and Dharma, those three are one and the same thing. That is how Dogen interprets this saying of Seppo. And hearing this, I think Gensha was in Seppo's assembly. So he heard this statement by Seppo and Gensha said, excuse me, while the flames are expounding the Dharma to all Buddhas in the three times. All Buddhas in the three times are standing on the ground and listening to the Dharma. So what Gensha is saying is frame, this frame is expanding Dharma for the sake of all Buddhas in the Three Times.

[75:30]

And all Buddhas in the Three Times are standing on the ground. This is, you know, in the Dharma Hall, when the abbot ascend the altar, like a new abbot does at the Mountain City ceremony. So the abbot is on the altar, and all the monks are standing on the ground. So this is about the scenery, how monks here the Dharma discourse by the avat. So in this case, you know, the fire, the flames are on the altar, and all the Buddhas are on the ground, and the fire expounding Dharma, and all the Buddhas are standing on the ground and listening to the Dharma, to the teaching, Dharma teaching,

[76:45]

by the firewood, by the fire. This is what literally this means. So in this case, there is a person who is our frame that is expanding Dharma. And there are people who are listening to that Dharma. So there is a subject and object. Now I'm talking and you are listening. But in the statement of Shepo, he only said, within the fire, all Buddhas are expanding Dharma. That's all. He didn't mention if someone is listening or not. So Gensha's saying means, even though this is frame, and Buddha and Dharma are one thing.

[77:47]

There are someone, our frame is expanding, and all Buddhas are listening. There are interactions, speaking and listening. So this is a kind of a separation. Within oneness there are two sides. Someone is talking and someone is listening. That is the difference between Seppo and Gensha's saying. So in the case of Seppo's saying, this is only one reality without any separation or division. But in the case of Gensha, even though this is one seamless reality, someone is talking, someone is listening. There are two sides. That is the difference between Seppo's saying and Gensha's saying. And next, Fatengo said in his comment on these two sayings is, I thought this person was Houbei, Houbai.

[79:01]

Houbai, or in Japanese, Kohaku. And another one, kouhei, in Japanese, ko, senko, and koku, right? First kohaku, second koku. Haku is white, and koku is black. And there are two... are two ways of interpretations. One is these are the names of thieves, legendary thieves, thieves, people who steal.

[80:05]

And another is this core, white and black, this core refer to a monkey, monkey. In that case, when we put this part in this kanji, this means monkey or big monkey, like a chimpanzee. But in Dogen's text, this is not there. So I'm not sure if it is right. But if this is two legendary thieves, I think it's more interesting. They are both thieves, and they share this part the same, but difference is first person is white, next is black.

[81:12]

And these two legendary thieves appear in a Chinese classic text. And it said Kouhaku was a man, Koukoku was a woman. So man, male thief, and female thief. Excuse me. And the story was kind of interesting, but not so meaningful. When the first one, white, called Haku, was walking by a well in the town, by a well, this woman, Koukoku, was standing. And it seems she was in trouble. So the male thief asked what was the problem. Then the Koukoku said,

[82:16]

I lost a jewel, and the jewel fell into the well. So if you can go down to the well and get it, I will pay half of the price of that jewel. Then the male thief thought, well, after I get it, I just, you know, keep it and escape. So I can get not half of the price, but I can get this jewel." So he took off all of his clothings and possessions by the well, and he get into the well. And then the woman thief take all those Closing his possessions and disappeared. And this Kohaku couldn't get out of the well.

[83:20]

That was the story. So both are thieves, but the woman thief is more smarter. So better thief than the first. But they are both same kind of people. That is the point of this saying by Engo. He says, Engo mentioned, says, Seppo and Gensha are same as these two thieves. So he said, I thought this person was Kōhaku or Houwai, but there was another person who is Houhei or Kōhaku. That means he thought Seppo was a very skillful thief, but there was another much more skillful thief named Gensha.

[84:32]

That was what this thing means. So the Engō praise these two masters' sayings. They expounded Dharma one after another, and gods appear and demons vanish. This is a common expression in Chinese and Japanese that some person like a thief appears suddenly and disappear suddenly without leaving any trace. So appearing and disappearing, you know, suddenly appearing, suddenly disappearing without leaving any trace. So these two themes and these two Zen masters appear and disappear. This also means when In the case of Seppo's saying, this entire oneness of frame and Buddha is mentioned.

[85:41]

So that side, oneness, appeared, and two sides disappeared. But in the case of Gensha's saying, two sides appeared and one side disappeared. So these gods and demons differ to oneness and trueness, who are difference and unity. One appears in Seppo's saying, and another is disappeared. And one side appeared in Gensha's saying, and another is disappeared. And yet both, because both are same thing, completely same thing, You know, this appear and disappear is just a matter of our way of thinking. As a real reality, beyond taking hold and letting go, both are completely there without being hidden.

[86:46]

Please. Do you have something? Of who? Of you. It is gods appearing and demons are disappearing? No. In this case, god and demon doesn't refer to good and bad. In the case of Chinese culture, People who had a happy dying, happy death, became gods. So gods is not gods, but human spirit. So when people died in a good condition, became gods. And people died in a very difficult conditions, became demons.

[87:48]

So that is only the difference. Excuse me. So, and next he said, blazing flame, blazing flame covers the entire sky, covers, means covers entire ten-direction world, blazing flame. Then the Buddha are expounding Dharma. This refers to a supposed thing. And the entire sky is embracing frames. So Engo just changed the order of the words. The entire sky is embracing frames. The Dharma is expounding the Buddha. So Buddha and Dharma are expounding each other

[88:50]

each things so same thing but different direction before the wind blows the nest of entanglement has been cut off this entanglement is a expression i mentioned i don't know when that is cut tall entanglement cut is a Fuzu and To is wisteria. And as I said, in Shôbōgen's or Kattō, he used this expression in a positive way. But here Dōgen uses it as a common usage, as a negative entanglement of delusion or thinking, dualistic thinking. So within He said, the nest of entanglement has been cut off, and I'm not sure what before the wind blows means.

[90:00]

Wind can defer to our thinking, our discrimination. Sometimes wind, you know, the ocean is like Buddha nature, but when wind blow, ocean made waves. In this case, this wind refer to ignorance. So, one possible interpretation is before the wind blows, before our life is influenced by ignorance, the entanglement has been cut off, our entanglement of our thinking. Then, with one single word, Vimalakirti was examined and defeated.

[91:03]

This means in the Vimalakirti Sutra there are many discussions about non-duality. And finally, Manjushri, the bodhisattva of wisdom said, the reality of non-reality cannot be explained or expressed by using words. And Manjushri asked to Vimalakirti, what is your opinion? Then Vimalakirti kept silent. This is a very famous story. So Vimalakirti's silence is a symbol of non-duality beyond discrimination. But here, Engo is saying, with these two, the Master's sayings, even the Vimalakirti's silence is defeated. Because using words, they express the exact reality of both duality and beyond duality.

[92:17]

I think that is what Engo is saying about these two Zen masters' sayings. And the rest of these writings, we don't have time anymore. Dogen Zenji made very in-detail comments on those three people's sayings. So by reading this, we can understand how Dogen Zenji studied koans, used koans as a text of studying reality of all beings. But he didn't add any you know, anything new, anything he didn't write in his writings before this section. So I think you can read and understand how Dogen Zenji analyzed this kind of a very simple statement.

[93:25]

But he sees this statement from many different angles and tries to examine what this reality is. And the last thing I would like to mention as a kind of a conclusion of Dogen Zenji is paragraph 44 from page 23. It's at 29. Dogen then said, in the beginning, the top of page 29, he said, we should be delighted that although this king bug was born far from where the sage lived, and the time, I think this I am should be we are.

[94:28]

The time we are living in is a long time apart from the stage lived. We still can hear the transformative guidance of the entire sky. Although we have heard that the Buddha expound Dharma, we did not know that the Dharma expound the Buddha for many years. Next paragraph. Therefore, all Buddhas in the three times have been expounded by the Dharma in the three times. And the Dharma in the three times have been expounded by all Buddhas in the three times. So this means, as I said in the first lecture, At the time of Dogen, many of Japanese Buddhists think they lived in the degenerate age of final dharma, so it doesn't work to practice anything.

[95:40]

There's no way to attain enlightenment, because we are far from where Buddha lived, and we are much later than the time Buddha lived. But here Dogen Zenji wants to say, basically wants to say in this entire writing, and not only this writing, but his entire life, is because Dharma is expanding Buddha, and Buddha is expanding Dharma. When our eyes are open, we can still hear Buddha's message, Buddha's teaching, if we have eyes and ears to see the Dharma. and to hear the dharma buddha is still alive within our practice if we practice buddha and dharma is already there so uh what he want to say in this writing and also in entire life life what he said is it up to us whether uh dharma can

[96:55]

you know, manifests itself, our dharma is over, or disappeared, or dies away. It's up to us whether we study and practice dharma, and we open our eyes and open our ears to that dharma. Then, within our activities, Buddha appeared and dharma appeared. And each and every action we practice using our body and mind with wholehearted attitude, that is Buddha. I think that is what Dogen wants to say. And I think it's time to stop talking. I'm sorry I couldn't finish this text, but, you know, everything has ended, so we have to end.

[97:58]

I really appreciate your practice and patience of listening my poor English. And I appreciate also my effort this time. And I'm sorry I made so much noise in the zendo and during my talk. And I hope this is not the last time to meet and share studying and practice. I hope we can meet again and practice together. I know this is a very busy time at this Zen Center, but I really appreciate your help and accommodation. Thank you very much.

[98:50]

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