Good afternoon. This afternoon I'm going to talk on Section 11, that starts page 88, the bottom of page 88. This section is a little longer than before, so I first read the original story, Koan's story, and later I'm going to talk paragraph by paragraph. Page 88. Huan Po is Obaku in Japanese pronunciation. Obaku is Hyakujo's disciple, therefore Isanreyu, the person who said no Buddha natures, Dharma brother.

[01:07]

And also he was a teacher of Rinzai. began the founder of Rinzai School in China. So Huan-po, or Obaku, was sitting in Nanchuan's tea room. Nanchuan is Nansen, and Nansen is Sakujo's Dharma brother, so Obaku's Dharma uncle. So it seems Obaku was practicing with his teacher's Dharma brother. So he was sitting in Nanchuan's tea room, not in the zendo, but in the tea room. Nansen, let me use Japanese pronunciation, Nansen said, Practicing Dhyana and Prajna equally, you clearly see the Buddha nature.

[02:15]

That is the essence of that teaching. Huan-po said, or Obak said, The essence is attained, saying you are not depending on a single thing without the 24 hours. Nansen said, Elder, Elder Monk, isn't that the attainment you yourself have achieved? Obak said, No, not at all. Nansen said, Forget everything. for now about the cost of the food and drink you have had here? Who is going to pay for those so thunderous of yours?" With that, Obaku abandoned the conversation. This is the story.

[03:18]

Do you understand? This saying, Obaku, not Obaku, but Nansen quote and asks to Obaku in this translation, is it? Practicing Dhyana and Prajna equally, you clearly see the Buddha nature," is another quotation from the Parinirvana Sutra. The expression is, E To Gaku Nyo Ken Bushi Sho Joe E To Gaku Nyo Ken

[04:50]

Jo in this translation is translated as dhyana. Dhyana is zen or chan in Sanskrit. But usually this jo is a translation of samadhi, not dhyana. And e is wisdom or prajna in Sanskrit. To is equal, or equal the study or practice. Myo is clearly, ken is see, Buddha, nature. So this means if. When you or we study Samadhi and wisdom equally, you will see the Buddha nature clearly.

[05:58]

That's the translation of this quotation. Nansen's question is, what is the essence of the original word is 理? 理 is reason or principle. So what is the principle of this saying, this teaching, is Nansen's question. in the Parinibbana Sutra when the sutra discussed about the Buddha nature. That is a chapter of Shishiku, chapter of Lion's Roar. In order to see the Buddha nature, the sutra discussed the practice of samadhi and prajna.

[07:06]

And according to, I think it's kind of unusual, but according to the sutra, what the sutra is saying, this samadhi means shamatha, and this wisdom means vipassana. Shamatha is she in Chinese or Japanese, and vipassana is come. She and come is the translation of shamatha and vipassana. And she, Chinese character, seems to stop. And kan is to see. So sometimes this shikan translates as stopping and seeing. And according to the sutra, samadhi means we don't take the shape or color of the object, and we don't make any discrimination.

[08:28]

So stop making discrimination is shamatha, or stopping. So this is no discrimination. And vipassana, or wisdom, is to see the object clearly and make distinction. That is jo and e, samatha and vipassana. Usually, especially in Mahayana Buddhism, prajna is defined as no discriminating wisdom, wisdom beyond discrimination. It seems, at least according to this Parinirvana Sutra, that wisdom, samadhi is no discrimination.

[09:29]

And wisdom means discrimination beyond non-discrimination. Does it make sense? You know, discrimination, usually our human discrimination is delusion or based on right and dislike or preference. and practice of vipassana, you know, samatha, is to stop that, stop discrimination, and just calm down. So no discrimination. But Buddha's wisdom is not that condition of stopping. But somehow Buddha stood up from the sitting and walk to the beer park to teach. And in order to teach, he again had to use the wisdom.

[10:33]

And in order to talk, of course, I think Buddha need to make discrimination or distinction. And also, when someone asks a question, in order to understand the person's question, Buddha needs a discriminating mind. In order to understand the problems or suffering, Buddha needs to make separation. That's wisdom, or separation, or discriminating wisdom. is beyond discrimination. I think that is the idea. And that's what it says. How can I say?

[11:40]

It's not three steps, but Joe A. and Char. Char, as a Chinese character, literally means to throw away, give up. But sometimes, as a Buddhist term, sha is used as a neutral, like as a sensation, present, unpresent, and neutral. This neutral is sha. Present is rak, and unpresent is ku. And neutral is sha. So ku rak sha is three kinds of sensations we receive. But here, sha means to be equal.

[12:45]

And to be equal here means to be well-balanced. That means jo and e need to be equal and well-balanced. That means non-discrimination and discrimination should be well-balanced. That's what this jo e tōgaku means. So this tō means sha. Jo and e should be well-balanced. Then, what is that? And it said, some people are good at practice or cultivate samadhi, no discrimination. And some people are good at cultivating wisdom, discrimination. But the people who are good at practicing or cultivating samadhi should learn wisdom.

[13:56]

And people who are good at wisdom need to cultivate samadhi. That is how these two, jo and e, can be well balanced. And the sutra says both sattvas are usually good at wisdom. In the Mahayana Sutra, the prajna is the most important thing. That's why the first important Mahayana Sutra is Prajnaparamita Sutra. That means within six parameters, prajnaparamita is most important primary practice. So Bodhisattva cultivate wisdom or prajna. And yet the sutra says, Shravaka and Pratyekabuddhas cultivate

[15:05]

more samadhi than wisdom. So Pratyekabuddha, Sri Lanka and Pratyekabuddha doesn't see clearly. But bodhisattva is not good at cultivating samadhi, so they make distinction. And so those are not well balanced. But it said the Buddha, all Buddhas, Buddhas and World Honored Ones, can, not can, but do equally study Joe and A, Samadhi and Windom. So Buddha can see the Buddha nature clearly.

[16:07]

That is what this Sutra is saying. So in this Sutra, Samadhi, that is no discrimination. that no discrimination means everything is one thing, no separation. And discrimination means everything has its own unique nature, and nature, form, body, energy, and function. You know, first five of the ten suchness I talked from the Lotus Sutra. So maybe we can say A is aspect of U Buddha nature and Jho is aspect of Mu Buddha nature.

[17:14]

And we need to use both equally in order to see the Buddha nature. That is the meaning of the quote in this sutra. And this Zōe Tōgaku, we should equally study Samadhi and Prajñā, is one of the important teachings of the platform sutra of the Shuinan, or the Sixth Ancestor. The Platon Sutra, we can find such teaching as follows. N.O. Washuinan said, Good friends, my teaching of the Dharma takes meditation, here meditation is jaw or samadhi, and wisdom.

[18:20]

as its basis. So samadhi and wisdom is a base of Shuinan's teaching. And he said, never under any circumstances say mistakenly that meditation and wisdom, jo and e, are different. they are unity, not two things. So in the sutra, in the case of Parinirvana Sutra, these are two things, and we need to study and practice both equally. So if we sit two hours, we have to study two hours. That's the idea. But Huinan said, Jho and e, or samadhi and meditation, are one and the same thing.

[19:26]

It's not a matter of well-balanced. Meditation itself is the substance of wisdom. This substance is Thai. or same as the body in that kensachiness. And meditation itself is a substance of wisdom, and wisdom itself is a function of meditation. Function is you. Tai and you are two very important concepts In Chinese philosophy, not only Buddhism, but also Taoism too. Tai is the thing itself, and yu is that function.

[20:28]

You know, in the Lao Tzu, do-toku, or virtue of the Tao, it's the same thing. Tao is Tai, and toku or virtue is yu. So anything has its own substance or tie and its function. So samadhi and wisdom are one and the same thing, and samadhi is tie or substance, right? Meditation is a substance of wisdom, and wisdom or discrimination make distinction is a function of samadhi. So, no discrimination and discrimination should be one, and the substance is no discrimination. And this no discrimination function within our daily lives as a discriminating wisdom, as a

[21:35]

And at the very moment when there is wisdom, if there is wisdom, then meditation or samadhi exists in wisdom. At the very moment when there is meditation, then wisdom exists in meditation. So meditation is itself samadhi. meditation is itself wisdom, and wisdom is itself samadhi. So it's not two, samatha and vipassana are not two separate things we have to equally study. But then we have, we practice, cultivate samatha, wisdom is already there, or vipassana is already there. Then we practice vipassana, samatha is already there. That is... Huinan's teaching.

[22:43]

So it's kind of different, a little different from the Paramindana Sutras. And good friends, this means that meditation and wisdom are alike, same thing. Students, be careful not to say that meditation give rise to wisdom. Meditation give rise to wisdom is a kind of a common understanding, you know. Dhyana, Dhinaya, Samadhi, and Wisdom are called three basic studies. And a common understanding of those three basic studies is Of course, when we become a Buddhist monk, we need to receive Vinaya Precept. That is the way we regulate and harmonize our daily lives.

[23:48]

That is a preparation to study Samadhi or meditation. When our daily lives are not well organized, it's not possible to sit quietly. If we have so many confusion and problems and competition in our daily lives and pain, we try to sit quietly. It's very difficult at all. I mean, at least. So in order to sit quietly in peace, we need to pacify or organize our life. And that is why we need to keep the precepts. And, you know, calm down our mind is shamatha or meditation. And when we calm down, our mind calm down and become clear, then we can see things clearly as wisdom.

[24:57]

Then we have to see the reality of each and everything. That is the basic idea. of three basic studies, ginaya, samadhi, and wisdom. But what Shuinan is saying here is we should not say that meditation gives rise to wisdom. So this is not a kind of a step. In this Joe, samadhi is not a preparation to study wisdom. Or that wisdom gives rise to meditation. So these two are not a matter of cause and result. These two are not true, but one and same thing. Or that meditation and wisdom are different from each other.

[26:02]

To hold this view implies that things have duality. If good is spoken while the mind is not good, meditation and wisdom will not be alike. If mind and speech are both good, then the internal and the external are the same, and meditation and wisdom are alike. The practice of self-awakening does not lie in verbal argument. verbal argument using words and concepts. If you argue which comes first, meditation or wisdom, you are derided people. So it's not a matter of which is first. These two are at the same time. you want to be able to settle the argument and instead will cling to objective things and will never escape from the false state of phenomena anyway.

[27:10]

So, as Shuina said, Joe and A are one and the same thing. It's not a matter of well-balanced or not. And Of course, Joe Nansen is a third generation from the sixth patriarch, I mean, Hunan. So he must know, I mean, Nansen must know this teaching of Hunan. And that is the question Nansen gave to his... I think at that time, Obaku was studying in his assembly, so he was a student of Nansen. To me, it's kind of difficult to understand what this story means, so I try to

[28:17]

find out about the relationship between Nan-sen and Obaku. And I tried to find the stories, other stories, between about Nansen and Obaku, and in the Record of Dharma Lamp, or Keitoku Dentoroku, I found three stories, and the third one is this one, this story. But in the first one, it was, to me, it's interesting, and it has some connection with this story, that is, The story says Nansen, the abbot of the monastery, holding a ryōki and enter the monk's hall, that means to have meals. Then somehow at the highest seat, Obako was sitting.

[29:22]

the story said it's the Dai Ichiza. Dai Ichiza means first seat. And Dai Ichiza first seat usually means the seat for shuso or head monk. But it seems he was not, Obaku was not head monk. So that was not his seat. But somehow Obaku was sitting in the highest seat And I'm not sure whether this is a chiseled seat or not. It seems that that seat was for Nansen, the abbot, but somehow over-quad sitting on that seat. Then Nansen come in. So the abbot had no seat to sit. And what is the story? Oh, and even when Odaku saw the adult comes in, he didn't move.

[30:41]

Then Nansen asked, The literal translation is called Choro. Choro literally means elder. In what era or age did you practice? I think it means how long have you been practicing? How long have you been practicing? That means you are still junior. and avatars coming, but you don't move, you don't offer that seed. How long have you been practicing?" Then Aobaku said, I have been practicing since the time of Kuo, this is the name of Buddha.

[31:45]

Kuo literally means empty king, empty king Buddha. That means before anything happens. So this thing is something like I have been practicing since Big Bang. But Nansen said, if so, you are still my Dharma grandson. That means Nansen is saying, I am practicing longer than that. So he said, so move. That's the story. Can you move? That story doesn't say. I guess so. Otherwise, no later stories.

[32:50]

I think it means Obaku was still very young. And yet he thought he attained something called enlightenment. So I don't care anything. You know, the seniority or the orders in the monastery or rules, regulations, all those are all conventional things. I don't care. That kind of, I think, attitude. And many of the so-called half-baked Zen practitioners are like that. I think that was the stage of Obaku. So he was pretty much a happiness, if I think about it. because of his understanding and practice and maybe his grasping to his so-called enlightenment. And in that case, that is kind of a sickness of them, means, I don't care anything.

[34:03]

no discrimination, no separation, no conventional thing. I see the absolute truth. I think Nansen saw the that sickness of overku through his attitude. So I think this story is a continuation of that incident. So he's asking, you know, if you really see the Buddha nature or true reality, you have to practice jo and e, which means Discrimination and non-discrimination should be together, but you ignore discrimination and only see beyond discrimination. and that is not complete.

[35:08]

So you should see the discrimination again. That means your practice is not yet complete. So I think that is the meaning of his question. What is the explicit proof of this teaching, Cho and E? Samadhi and wisdom, or discrimination and non-discrimination. Then Obako's answer is probably as Nansen expected. The essence or principle of this teaching is attained When you are not depending on a single thing throughout the 24 hours, that means I don't depend on anything. I'm me. That's it. I have no interdependent origination with others.

[36:12]

I'm perfect, complete. This is a kind of delusive, absolute truth. And this is also a kind of an ignorance of interdependent origination. That's why Nansen said, Elder monk, isn't that the attainment you yourself have achieved? That means that you are still your own personal... in this translation, attainment, but the original word used in Chinese is kensho. Kensho is view. So isn't it your own personal view? And Auerbach said, no, not at all.

[37:20]

No, not at all means yes, it is. Dogen explained this expression later. Then Nansen said, forget for now about the cost of the food and drink you've had here. Who's going to pay for those thorough sandals of yours? That means in order to attain or gain such views, you have been practicing many years. and who pay the food and drink, and who pay for the school funders to travel to visit teachers to practice. That means even though you have such a view that I'm independent, still, you know, you could practice in that way from the help or support of many people.

[38:24]

If your view is such a kind of one-sided, the person doesn't see interdependence, relationship with others, connection with others, if your view is still such a limited, how can you return the money for the food you receive? and for the strong standards you are offered when you travel to practice. That means, you know, you have been practicing in this way and you have such a view, and yet you are still supported by so many people. How can you return that kind of debt of kindness to those people? I think that is the meaning of this original story.

[39:28]

This is my own personal view. So maybe it's not correct, but this is my understanding. So then with that, Huan-po or Obaku abandoned the conversation. He became quiet. He stopped talking. I think that is the meaning of this story. But as usual, Dogen Zenji interprets this story in a completely different way. Now Dogen starts to talk. The essential meaning of practicing Dhyana or Samadhi and Prajna equally, Jowei Togaku, is not.

[40:37]

Since the practice of Dhyana does not infringe on the practice of Prajna, You clearly see the Buddha nature when both are practiced equally. This is what the Parinibbana Sutra is saying. If we study Joe and A equally, then we can see the Buddha nature clearly. But Dogen said, this does not mean that. So in that sense, dogma is closer to the human's understanding. Rather, it is clearly seeing the Buddha nature is a practice in which dhyana and prajna or samadhi and prajna are in equal balance. That means seeing the clear seeing of Buddha nature.

[41:42]

is the in a sense uh basic thing because of this we can practice equally joe and a that means uh discrimination and non-discrimination because only because we can see that only because only when we see the good nature clearly we can use discrimination and no discrimination equally. I think that is what Dogen is saying. It's not a matter of as a result of practicing those two equally, you can see the Buddha nature clearly. But this should be the first. And Nansen is articulating what is the meaning of that.

[42:46]

So Dogen, again, doesn't read Nansen's question in the story as a question, but he read as a statement. What is the meaning of that? means this fat is again the word which point out the thusness, same as ka, fat. So fat, this fat, the reality beyond any fat. I forget. any definition or naming, is the meaning of this teaching, meaning or principle of this teaching. And he is, in effect, saying that by saying, what is the meaning of that?

[43:57]

This is nothing statement. Clearly seeing the Buddha nature is the act of who. Who is the person without definition, without condition, unconditioned person, and that is Buddha nature. So clearly seeing Buddha nature is the act of Buddha nature. That means Buddha-nature clearly sees the Buddha-nature. It's not a matter of this deluded person. If I practice Joe and A equaling, I can see Buddha-nature. If we interpret this in this way, this is still subject, object, and some kind of happening between or within the encountering between subject and object. But Dogen said that is not the case.

[45:01]

He said Buddha nature is clearly seeing the Buddha nature. And because of that, we can practice both samadhi and wisdom or we can use discrimination and non-discrimination equally. And this discrimination and non-discrimination can be in other words, thinking and not thinking. And this Buddha-nature, this Buddha-nature, seeing the Buddha-nature is hisiryo, or beyond thinking. Thinking, not thinking, beyond thinking. So this, according to Dogen, this is a description of our zazen, what is happening. practice dhyana or samadhi and wisdom, or thinking and not thinking, or not thinking and thinking.

[46:13]

The Buddha nature, So this is not really to see something, subject, see object. But according to Dogen, this ken is the same as gen, gen in genjo koan. That means manifestation. So Buddha nature manifests itself as a form of thinking and not thinking. I think that is how Dogen Denji read this conversation. Yeah. [...] Within letting go, this is happening. Letting go means I don't control. I don't. I don't chase after our thinking.

[47:22]

At that time, the nama rupa seems to be a nama rupa. Then each and every thing appears as they are. I think that is how Buddha Nature sees the Buddha Nature clearly, how Buddha Nature manifests Buddha Nature itself. So this is a description of the Jiyu Zanmai or Awaza Zen. OK? To say if you practice Buddha and nature equally, you will clearly see the Buddha nature. I don't agree with this translation. But the original sentence is, instead of ,, instead of ,, put . And that's why this translates, I think, Buddha and the soul, Buddha and nature equally studying.

[48:43]

Then clearly see Buddha nature. But I don't think that's what Dogen meant. means this Buddha nature equally study. Equally study means use both and . and wisdom, or thinking and not thinking. That is the way Buddha nature clearly sees the Buddha nature. And what is the meaning of that? What is the meaning of that? So this is, again, not a question. It is also an authentic utterance of truth. So this is a description of reality of our Zazen. And Huanpo said, or Obaku said, when you are not depending on a single thing throughout the 24 hours, essentially this means even though the 24 hours exist within the 24 hours,

[49:58]

of each day, they are non-dependent. This statement by Dogen has something to do with what he discussed in Uji, being time. And in the Uji, he discussed two, not kind or type, but two kinds of time. One is time within each day. You know, for example, we wake up at 4.30 during this retreat, and we sit from 5 to 4, 15 minutes, and we practice Qijin for 10 minutes, and we sit again, and after that we have breakfast. That is how we think the time is, and we try to follow that schedule. That is a kind of a time in our common sense.

[51:04]

But in Shodo Genzo Uji, he discussed, this is not only time we experience. There's another, I don't know the word, type or kind or layer or whatever, the time which doesn't move, the time which doesn't pass. The time is always there, always this moment. And from the time of Big Bang and until the endless end, this is one moment. The right time using the length such as one year, one day, or one minute, one second is our convention. It's not real time. It's our human-made convention. Actual time doesn't really move, doesn't pass.

[52:06]

There's no such separation. So in our conventional idea of time, depending upon what time Is it, you know, we sit in the Zen and we stand up and do qi xing, and because this is a time of lecture, I have to give a talk, even though I don't want to. This is depending on the time, depending on the time and the conditions. We try to think what is the best thing to do, what is my responsibility, what is my duty. But he said, I mean, Dogen's interpretation of what Hwanto is saying is that, for 24 hours, I never depend on anything.

[53:10]

This time, And this being is not an individual, particular person within particular time, within the conventional flow of time. But this one moment from the big bang to the endless end, this is one time. And this one time does not depend on anything. There's no foundation beyond that. And within this time, things are interdependent and changing. But the entirety of that moment depends on nothing. That's it.

[54:13]

I think that is Dogen's interpretation of this So Dogen doesn't understand Obaku's thing as his arrogance, but I am alone. I can't stand by myself. I don't rely on anything. But he interpreted this thing of Obaku as the expression of the absolute reality on which things are coming and going and always changing, interdependent, still the totality of this interdependent origination depends on nothing. And because not depending on a single thing is within the 24 hours, it is

[55:20]

The Buddha nature clearly seen. That's how Buddha nature clearly seen the Buddha nature. So the reality itself, it's not a matter of I can't see it or I can't live without relying on others. As for the 24 hours, phone is not the time of their arrival. That means, this is what Dogen said in Uji and also in previously in this writing, Buddha Nature, when he discuss about when we, in order to see Buddha Nature, we have to see temporal conditions. I think in section two. So time has always arrived. That means this is only time we can live, we can see, we can practice.

[56:25]

In the time, in what land does their arrival not occur? That means everywhere, all over, everywhere this present moment has arrived. And that is only time that exists. Are the 24 hours referred to here, 24 hours in the human world? Are they 24 hours somewhere else? Or is this the temporary arrival of 24 hours in a land of white silver, land of white silver refer to the land of Samantabhadra Bodhisattva. Anyway, somewhere else, other Buddha land. But wherever it is, the present moment is only present moment.

[57:32]

And time is always alive. That is this moment. And whatever the case, whether it is our own world or another world, like a world of Amitabha Buddha or Samantabhadra Bodhisattva, it is non-dependent. The totality of this universe does not depend on anything. In fact, this lies within the 24 hours and can be non-dependent. So Dogen Zenji interpret over this thing, you know, completely different way. And no one besides Dogen could think this way. It's really amazing.

[58:36]

Elder monk, isn't that the attainment you yourself have achieved? This is an ancient question to Obaku. Is the same as saying, isn't that the Buddha nature clearly seen? So this means, is this your view? Is this Buddha nature seeing the Buddha nature or not? Even though Nansen makes this utterance about it being Obaku's attainment, Obaku must not turn his head as if it referred to him. That means this elder monk does not necessarily mean Obaku as an individual person, but elder monk, the same as Buddha or Buddha nature. entirety of reality itself so this is the view or a thing of buddha nature although it may apply very well to shuampu or ovaku it does not refer to ovaku ovaku certainly is not necessarily only himself because our masters

[60:11]

Masters is the same as Elder Monk. Way of attainment or view is utterly undestricted and all-pervading. So this is the description of entirety of network of interdependent origination. And Huan Po said, no, not at all. And Dogen explains what this means in Chinese language. In Song China, when a person is asked about some talent or ability he may possess, even if he wishes to acknowledge the ability, he answers, no, not at all. It's kind of a humble way of saying, yes, I am.

[61:13]

And in Japanese, we have the similar expression. We say or something like that. Even when we do our best and people praise, we say . Anyway, that same idea. So that means that the meaning of the word and the person's mind or what that person is trying to say are different. So hence the words, no, not at all, do not literally mean no, not at all. They are not to be taken at face value. As for the mode of understanding of a Zen master, even though he is a master or even though he is a hyuanto or obaku, when he speaks, he has no choice but to say, no, not at all.

[62:22]

That means obaku as an individual is also Buddha nature, all-pervading. That means connected with everything. So, no, not at all is kind of a humble thing of, yes, I am. But this no, not at all is also a saying or utterance of the Buddha nature, although that was spoken through Obaku's mouth. It was Buddha nature expressed, Buddha nature itself. That's why Dogen said, when a water buffalo appears, it can only say, wong, wong. That means there's no way to say water buffalo can only say this thing.

[63:27]

That means the Buddha nature can only say in this way. This kind of utterance is authentic. So this is Buddha-nature talking about Buddha-nature, or Buddha-nature expressing Buddha-nature. Try to utter the essential meaning of his utterance. Make an utterance on his utterance. So he's asking us, to us, we should express the same thing as Auvak did, or as Nansen did. And Nansen said, forget for now about the cost of the food and drink. You've had here who is going to pay for those thorough standards of yours.

[64:29]

Dogen said, you should commit yourself for many lifetimes to probing the meaning of this utterance. And there are several different interpretation of this thing and in the comment of Dogen. But what Dogen said is, you should concentrate your mind and study deliberately why it is he does not concern himself with the cost of the food and drink. The reason he is so concerned about the straw sandals is because he assumes that in the years of pilgrimage, many pairs of them must have been worn out. Some people interpret this as the difference between the cost of food and drink and the cost of straw sandals.

[65:44]

And they think the cost of food and drink is enlightenment, and the cost of thunder is practice. So practice and enlightenment. So your attainment is okay, but to whom should we return the cost of practice? That means now you have this kind of clear thing because of your practice, but while you are practicing, you receive many help from all beings. How will you return this? Another interpretation, I like that one better, is these two are not two separate things, like enlightenment and practice, but these two are both for the nature. you know, food and drink and so on are all necessary things to practice. So both are practice, and practice and enlightenment are one thing.

[66:49]

But one side we should be concerned, that means we have to think, and we have to deal, we have to control. And on another side, We don't need to be and we cannot be concerned, we cannot control. So even though, you know, these food and drink and sorrow, thunder are the same thing, practice and enlightenment, that is Buddha nature. But one side, we have to be concerned. That means we need to think and we need to make distinction and discrimination. And another side, we don't need to be care. That means we don't need to make any discrimination. So one side, we have to grasp. Another side, we have to open our hand.

[67:55]

So grasping and ungrasping, these are two sides of the practice of Buddha nature. I think that is, to me, how can I say, this is my discrimination, but I like this better. Anyway, the wind continues. Here, one must say, if I couldn't pay for the thunders, I wouldn't put them on to begin with. That means I will walk without thunders. Barefoot. That means there's no way we can repay the gratitude, the debt of gratitude.

[69:03]

So I have to practice with barefoot. That can be one expression from this reality. That means we have to... simply be gratitude to the offering from all beings within the network of interdependent origination. If we need to pay, you know, from the beginning, we cannot put on the sundry. We cannot practice. We can practice because of the support of all beings. So there's no way we can repay. So the only thing we can be is be grateful. Again, one must say, or two or three prayers,

[70:11]

That means, you know, we don't need so many pairs of sandals for now. So, day by day, or two or three, maybe one week, two weeks, three weeks, for a while, you know, we receive the sandals and continue to practice. Moment by moment, day after day, week after week, For a while we practice this way and that's all we can say. It has to be utterances like those. It has to have that kind of essential significance. Then, with that, Hionpo or Obaku abandoned the conversation. That means he quit saying anything. And this means that he cut the conversation off, but it was not because he did not accept Nansen's response.

[71:33]

I think this translation is not complete. But for Dogenstein, Obak stopped the conversation. But the reason why he stopped talking is because he... Ko is to affirm. So Fukuo is not affirmed, so dismissed. So Obaku stopped talking not because he was dismissed by Obaku or by Nansen, or he dismissed what Nansen said. So neither, either. But that means this stop talking is Obaku's expression of his gratitude or understanding or awakening.

[72:54]

Or within this silence, you know, both jo and e are included. Thinking and not thinking is there. with priest of the true stamp, that could never occur. So this is not, you know, he didn't agree with Nansen or Nansen didn't agree with him, so they stopped discussion. But you have to realize that the words in their silence, the words in their silence are the same as a razor on a knife. Laser on a lap is another Zen expression from another koan. But this means within silence or within laughing or smiling, there is a sword to cut off delusion or cut off that person's delusion.

[74:02]

So this sword is a sword of Manjushri. So smiling or laughing or silence does not mean lack of saying something. But silence can be a very precise expression of that reality itself. And this silence is, it is the Buddha nature clearly seen And rice gruel and rice in inexhaustible abundance. Rice gruel is kayu or shuku and rice is ham. So shuku and ham. And shuku ham means breakfast and lunch. In Buddhist monastery, they only eat two meals.

[75:04]

The monasteries in China only had two meals, breakfast and lunch. And breakfast is always, every day, rice gruel. In Japanese nursery too. And lunch, we eat rice. So rice gruel and rice means breakfast and lunch. And this means we have enough food to survive day after day. That means because of seeing Buddha nature clearly, Buddha nature, we can live, survive, be alive as a part of this network of interdependent ordination. Dogen Zenji introduced another conversation between Isan and Gyo-san.

[76:08]

Isan is Ōbaku's dharma brother, and Gyo-san is Isan's dharma heir. They discussed about this conversation between Ōbaku and Nansen. Let's see. A question is Isan brought this episode up with Yangshan or Jyosan, his disciple. He said, Nansen was too slippery for Huanpo or Obaku, wasn't he? That means Isan said Obaku didn't understand Nansen. Nansen Obaku is not mature enough to understand Nansen's teaching. That is what Isan said about this conversation. But his disciple, Gyo-san or Yanshan, didn't agree with his teacher.

[77:21]

And he said, you must understand that Huanpo Obaku has a capacity that subdues tigers. tiger refer to Nansen. So instead, Obaku catch the tiger. Obaku catch or caught the Nansen. So these two people's opinion completely opposite. Isan said Obak didn't understand Nansen, but Gyōsan said Obak grasped or caught Nansen. And Tōgenzenji disagrees both. It's not a matter of who wins.

[78:24]

and who lose. That is Dogen's saying. But both together, the two of them together, express Buddha nature, clearly seeing the Buddha nature. That is what Dogen wants to say. Anyway, when Isam, the teacher, said, there is such mastery in the way you see things, said the question, So Isan praised his disciples. First question what Isan means is, Xuampo or Baku could not trap Nansen that time, could he? This is what Isan said in the conversation with Gyosan. And Gyosan said, Xuampo had a capacity that subdued tigers. So not its opposite, but Obaku subdue Nansen.

[79:38]

Then Dogen presents his understanding. Once he, he means Obaku, once Obaku has caught one, that is caught Nansen, He scratched it behind the ears. You know, this, it is nothing but tiger. So when Obaku caught the tiger, just caught up is, just catch is not enough. But Dogen said it should be scratched it behind the ears, mean to pet it. You understand? Not only catch it, but also, how can I say, take care of it. And Auberge did. That is what Dogen is saying. So not only catch the Nansen, but Auberge scratch, petting the Nansen too.

[80:44]

And catching a tiger, seems like a poem, a four-line poem. Catching a tiger, scratching it behind the ears. Catching means merely catching or grasping. And scratching it behind the ears is to take care of it. So catching a tiger, scratching it behind the ears. Going among different creatures. Going among different creatures is a translation of i-rui-kyu-gyo. And this is a kind of important expression in Zen. And there are two possible understandings of this expression. Yi, Rui, Shu, Jyo.

[81:53]

Yi is difference. Rui is like a kind or a category. Kind or category. And this could also mean means within the same category, that means sameness. And chū is in or within or middle. And jō is to go. One possible interpretation of this expression is going within. different kinds. That means as a bodhisattva we need to go to anyone, any different kinds of people or creatures or living beings to express the Dharma and try to help those people.

[83:08]

That is one possible interpretation of this expression. This touching the tiger and scratching it behind the ears is the methods to go into that various different kind of living beings to help. And another is Yi and Rui are two things. Yi is difference and Rui is a faintness. And Chu is middle. So we should go in the middle of difference and thinness. I think that is closer to what Dogen is saying here. So this translation, going among different creatures, might be not the right translation. So, and clearly seeing Buddha nature, opening the eye, opening the eye is wisdom to see the difference.

[84:17]

And Buddha nature clearly seeing, same thing but opposite order, losing the eye, losing the eye is go beyond discrimination. So, opening the eye is wisdom and losing the eye is samadhi. So within the Buddha-nature, seeing clearly the Buddha-nature itself, or Buddha-nature manifests itself. And within that moment, both wisdom that is opening the eye and samadhi that's closing the eye, thinking and not thinking, are included. So we have to open the eye and yet we have to lose the eyes at the same time. And Harry quickly says something. So this is what Dogen said to us.

[85:22]

Say something. On the basis of thinking and not thinking, or discrimination and not thinking, you have to say something. And this same something is our practice based on this reality and based on discrimination and non-discrimination, thinking and not thinking. What do you say? Buddha nature sees things with great mastery. She paraphrased what Isan said to his disciple Josan. So Buddha nature sees actually Buddha nature itself with great mastery. Hence for a thing or even half a thing, there is never depending.

[86:29]

So there's no depending actually. And yet, a hundred things, a thousand things, all are undepending. A hundred times, a thousand times, all are undepending. That is, this totality of interdependence of the nation does not depend on anything. It's there. That's all. Please. African means something that's already been apprehended, that was trafficking in English. Well, in Tenzo Kyokun, Fendōgen describes how Tenzo calculates the number of people and how much food the Tenzo has to deliver to different places in the monastery. He describes half a grain, one grain, half a grain, and many grains.

[87:31]

That means Sometimes we have to cut off this one grain into half. That means one entire reality into half. This is discrimination, I think. And finally he said, that is why it is said, one universal weaker trap at all hours. Depending, non-depending. So we are depending and at the same time non-depending. Like vine on a tree. Vine on a tree. Vine and vine depend on the tree. But if we see vine and tree as one thing, it's bad to, you know, depend on anything. They are being there together, that's all.

[88:34]

Throughout heaven, over all heaven, after that, no words remain. After that, no words remain. So any thinking or discrimination or expression remains. That means We just, you know, as Katharine Ross said, shut your mouth and just sit. Okay. Any questions? No questions. Good. So next we just sit. Thank you.

[89:28]

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