Good morning, everyone. This morning, I'm going to talk on the news section about U Mon's saying. Page 12, the second paragraph from the bottom, right side. The great master Yumen, Kuan Zui, has said, the East Mountain moves over the water. Let me read one more paragraph. The important of this expression is that all mountains are the East Mountain. and all these East Mountains are moving over the water. Therefore, Mount Sumeru and the other nine mountains are all appearing, are all practicing and verifying the Buddhadharma.

[01:15]

This is called the East Mountain. But how could Unlen himself be liberated from the skin, flesh, bones, and marrow of the East Mountain and its life of practice and verification. So Dogen comments on U Mon's saying. This is also very short. the East Mountain moves over the water. This is U Mon's answer to a question from a monk. And this question and answer is from U Mon's record. If you are familiar with this book, Master U Mon,

[02:17]

yun-men, or un-mon in Japanese. The question and answer is in this book. The question is, according to this translation, this is by Ursap. Someone asked, What is the place from whence all the Buddhas come? What is the place from whence all the Buddhas come? And Master Unmen said, Where the east mountains walk on the river. So this statement is the answer to the question, Where is the place from whence all the Buddhas come? So where are all Buddhas from? And women said, the east mountains walk on the river.

[03:25]

I have a question about this translation. You know, the answer is OK, but the question, the meaning of the question, in Chinese, His question is, where is the Shobutsu Shusshin no Tokoro? Shobutsu is all Buddhas. The place, and this is Shusshin in Japanese pronunciation. So the point is what this shushin means. Shutsu means to exit. Shin is body.

[04:35]

Exit or get out. And in this translation, he translated this phrase as a place from where Buddha came. So, where is the place Buddha is from? So Buddha is now here. And he came somewhere. And the meaning of the question is, where is that place Buddha is from I think that is the meaning according to this translation but I don't know I don't agree with this translation because of the meaning of this shusshin actually as a common or even in modern Japanese this shusshin means where are you from so

[05:40]

it's not mistaken as a literal translation. For example, I'm from Osaka, and so I say, I am, how can I say, my shushin is Osaka. So, in that sense, this translation is not mistaken. But as a meaning, or at least Dogen's usage of this word, sometimes Dogen twists the meaning of the word, so I am not sure what Unmen or the monk who asked Unmen meant. But when we study Dogen, we have to interpret the word Dogen used according to his understanding. And this word is used in Fukanda Zengi. In this translation of Kansa Zengi, the last part of the first paragraph of Kansa Zengi, he says, suppose you are confident in your understanding and rich in enlightenment, gaining

[07:12]

the wisdom that knows at a glance, attaining the way and clarifying the mind, allowing an aspiration to reach for the heavens. You are praying in the entrance way, but you are still short of the vital path of emancipation. I think all of you are familiar with this part of Kansa Zengi. And in the last sentence, you are praying in the entrance way, but you are still short of the vital path of emancipation. In this sentence, entrance way is a translation of Nitto, Ni means to enter.

[08:19]

To is head. And a vital path of emancipation is a shusshin no katsuro. Katsuro is vital path or vital way of emancipation. This emancipation is a translation of this word shusshin. And so, this shushin and this nyutto are corresponding. So, you know, even what Dogen is saying is, suppose you are confident in your understanding and rich in enlightenment, gaining the wisdom that knows utter grants, Attaining the way and clarifying the mind. Allowing an aspiration to reach for the heavens.

[09:23]

You know, this is almost like enlightenment or enlightened. But he says this is still just such a person still praying in the entrance way. Nitto no... original word is henryo, means the border, just the entrance. So that means just your head is in that border of the, maybe, Buddhahood. You are just... only your head is getting to the barrier of the Buddhahood. and still the lack of vital path of emancipation. So this vital path of emancipation means our body should get out. Get out of the Buddha way.

[10:26]

I mean, Buddhahood. That is very important thing in Dogen's teaching. We should get out of the border of the Buddhahood. just to get into the Buddhahood is not enough. We should go out. Our body should be completely get out of the Buddhahood. That is a dogma called, the matter of going beyond Buddha. So, we cannot stay in the Buddhahood, but we have to go beyond Buddhahood. That means, Buddha is still walking. Buddha food is not somewhere we can stay. Like Dogen said in Shobo Gendo Uji, now you are staying in a barbarian palace as a Buddha and just sitting quietly.

[11:28]

But Buddha has to go out. of the Buddhahood and come to the samsara and teach others and help others. That is, you know, butsu kojoji, the matter of going beyond the Buddha. So, that, I think, that is the meaning of this word, shusshin. So, the meaning of this monk's question is not fear the Buddha is from, But I think this question means what is the place where Buddha is free from Buddhahood? How does Buddha work in the world? How does Buddha continue to practice in the world, in samsara, with all living beings? So I think the meaning of the question is opposite.

[12:30]

And if the meaning of the question is, where is the place Buddha is from, then that is somewhere else. But here, this monk is asking, where is the Buddha is working right now? He came from the Buddhahood. at least this moment, right now, right here, or Ni Kon, the first word Dogen wrote in Sansui Cho, the mountains and waters at the present, so this present moment. And what Gunmon said is, East mountains walk over the water. So the mountain is Buddha, in this case.

[13:34]

Mountain is walking. That is, Buddha is still walking on the mountains and rivers, crossing over. So Buddhahood is not our goal. Buddhahood should be right now, right here. Buddha should work with all beings and walk through rivers and mountains. together with all living beings. I think that is the meaning of this, at least my interpretation of this question and answer. And, according to Ursupa, this woman's answer is from a verse by Chinese kind of a rei zen master or zen adept, whose name was Fu, Reiman Fu.

[14:40]

He is, according to the Keitokuden Toroku, or Record of Transmission of Lamp, he is the contemporary of Bodhidharma. And he was not a Buddhist monk, but he was a lay person. But somehow he practiced with his family. And it's said that he was the first person who built the, how do you say, storage of sutras, called hozo. And at the storage of sutra or library in the monastery, this person is enshrined. And if you go to Japanese temples, Japanese Zen temples, and if you find a person sitting on the chair and holding his hand like this, it's that person.

[15:49]

I don't know why he holds his hand like this. I don't quite remember, but if my memory was correct, he was looking that Bodhidharma is coming from the West. I'm not sure if it's true or not. But anyway, the verse by this person, Raymond Hu, in his translation is as follows. The East Mountains. So here, East Mountains are plural. East Mountains float on the river. And the West Mountains. Here's another. You know, West Mountains too. And the West Mountains wander on and on. So both East Mountains and West Mountains are walking.

[16:53]

And in the realm of this world, beneath the great deepa, the stars in the north, just there is the place of genuine emancipation. So this has connected with this monk's question. This is the place of genuine emancipation, freedom, liberation. And maybe the third sentence is not clear in this translation. The Great Dipper in the original verse is Hokuto. This is a Chinese or Japanese name for Great Dipper. Hokuto means, I don't know what Fato means, but Hok means north.

[17:55]

And the real name of this word is a translation of Enbu. Enbu is an abbreviation of Nan Enbu Dai. Nan Enbu Dai, I forget the Sanskrit word, is the name of this continent south of the Sumer. So, jump? I cannot pronounce. Anyway, enbudai in Japanese pronunciation. So, in the name of this, there is a word, nang, means south. So, in this verse, you know, Lei Man Foo is talking about east, west, north and south. That means all over. So, what he is saying is, all over, wherever we are, in this ten direction world, is the place of genuine emancipation.

[19:05]

So, this is the place of emancipation, or shusshin. Actually, Reiman Fu didn't use the word shushin, but he used gedatsu. But the meaning is the same. Gedatsu is liberation or emancipation. So, what Ume is saying is, I think, is the same as what Reiman Fu is saying. That is, the place of emancipation of all Buddhas is not somewhere else, but this world of samsara. And the next paragraph is Dogen's comment.

[20:31]

Dogen doesn't make much comment on this koan, but he criticizes the understanding or sayings of some people at the time of Dogen about this thing. So his comment on this thing is very short. George just says, the importance of this expression is that all mountains are the East Mountain. So East Mountain is not one particular mountain. But he is saying all mountains are East Mountains. There is not such a place called East. You know, we say Asia is East and America and Europe are West, but actually America is the East of Japan.

[21:34]

There is not such a place called East and not such a place called West. When we walk around the world, we go back to the original place. So, in that sense, everywhere is East, and everywhere is West, and everywhere is South or North. So, there is no such particular place called East, West, North or South. Wherever we are, we are the center of the world, as I said before, I mean yesterday. So, when Unmong is talking about East mountain, that means all mountains, all mountains are walking over the water. And that is the way Buddha express, or Buddhas express their emancipation, their liberation.

[22:35]

If Buddha or the mountain have to stay one place on the lotus seed, then this Buddha is not really liberated from the Buddhahood. So Buddha should stand up from the plaster and start to walk. And Fatoumo is saying that Buddha is really walking. And the way Buddha walks is the way we practice. So within our practice, Buddha is walking. That is what Dogen really wants to say in this San Sui Kyo. And therefore, Mount Sumeru and the other nine mountains are all appearing, are all practicing and verifying the Buddha Dharma.

[23:40]

Mount Sumeru is the center of this entire universe in the Indian or Buddhist cosmology. And there are nine, how can I say, it's not a circle but a square of the mountains. Well, I checked a Buddhist cosmology book and I found an illustration of this world. According to Buddhist cosmology described in Abhidharmakosha, our world is like this. It's too small, but on the top of this... How do you call this shape?

[24:49]

Cylinder? There is a mountain here. The center of the world is Mount Sumeru. And there are... Maybe you can take a look at it later, but around Mount Sumeru there are nine square of mountains. And our continent, Jambudvipa, is south of the Sumeru. And underneath this ocean and earth, there is a golden earth layer. That is Earth. And below the Earth there is a water circle. And below that water circle there is a wind circle.

[25:51]

So according to Abhidharma Kosha, this world is supported by the wind, wind circle. And later Dogen mentioned about this water circle and wind circle in this writing. Anyway, so, he said, all the mountains in this world, in this universe, are the East Mountain. And all mountains, without any exception, are appearing and all practicing and verifying the Buddhadharma, all mountains, not only those, you know, mountains such as Usmeru or other nine mountains or Mount Fuji or Mount Everest or, for example, mountains.

[26:53]

Actually, we are the top of the mountains. We are the mountains, as I said before. And this mountain is walking. And this walking of mountain is Practice and Enlightenment. Practicing and Verifying is a translation of Shu Sho. Shu and Sho. And Dogen's basic teaching is this shu and this shou as together as a compound, one thing. But usually shu and shou are two separate things in our common sense or in our common understanding of Buddhism.

[28:00]

Because shu is a cause. And show is the result. So, you know, as I said maybe yesterday, we, as a bodhisattva, we allow body-mind and start to practice. And through our practice we attain enlightenment or awakening and we become Buddha billions of years later. this becoming Buddha is shou or awakening shou. And this shou literally means verification or proof or evidence. But Dogen said shou, our practice, and shou, the result of practice, are one thing. So within this, within our practice in this moment,

[29:05]

show or result is already here because show is a seed of lotus and actually, you know, the lotus flower is used as a metaphor or symbol of wondrous dharma because within the flower seed is already there That is one of the meanings of the metaphor of the lotus flower. So, you know, the walking of mountains or practicing of each one of us, within this practice, within this walking, Buddha is you know, manifesting itself. So our practice, moment by moment, is an intersection of our process of our practicing, studying and deepening our understanding and experience, and also the process of Buddha's walk in this world.

[30:21]

Do you understand what I mean? That is our practice. I hope you understand. So, everything is practicing. All mountains are practicing. And Dogen said, this is called the mountain. This, you know, constant walk of mountain is the East Mountain. And from the next paragraph, Dogen criticizes people at his time about the understanding of this saying of umon.

[31:24]

Let me read two paragraphs. At the present time, in the land of the Great Song, Song is the name of the dynasty when Dogen visited China. So, land of Great Song means China. There is a certain bunch of illiterates, who have formed such a crowd that they cannot be overcome by the few real students. They maintain that, they maintain that thing, that thing, that thing such as this. East mountain moving over the water, or are non-quants or nonsensical, are incomprehensible talk.

[32:36]

Their idea is that any saying that is involved with thought is not a Zen saying of the Buddhas and ancestors. It is incomprehensible sayings that are the sayings of Buddhas and Ancestors. Consequently, they hold that Xuan Bo's stick and Linji's roar because they are difficult to comprehend. and cannot be grasped by thought, represent the great awakening preceding the time before the germination of any subtle sign. The tangle-cutting phrases, often used as devices by earlier worldies, are, they say, incomprehensible.

[33:41]

Those who talk in this way... This is Dogen's criticism against those people. Those who talk in this way have never met a true teacher and lack the eye of study. They are worthless little fools. There have been many such sons of Mara Mara means demon, and a gang of six, shaped in the land of Song for the last two or three hundred years. This is truly regrettable, for it presents the decline of the great way of the Buddhas and ancestors. Their understanding is inferior to that of the Hinayana Shravakas, more foolish than that even of non-Buddhists.

[34:54]

They are not laymen. They are not monks. They are not humans. They are not gods. They are dumber than beasts that study the way of the Buddha. What you shavings call incomprehensible saying is incomprehensible only to you. Not to the Buddhas and ancestors. Simply because you yourself do not comprehend. the sayings is no reason for you not to study the path comprehended by the Buddhas and ancestors. Even granted that Zen teachings were, in the end, incomprehensible, this comprehension of yours would also be wrong.

[36:05]

Such types are common throughout all quarters of the state of song. I have seen them with my own eyes. They are to be pitied. They do not know that thought is words. Thought is words. They do not know that words are liberated from thought. When I was in the song, I made fun of them, but they never had an explanation, never a word to say for themselves, just this false notion of theirs about incomprehensibility. Who could have taught you this? Though you have no natural teacher, you are natural little non-Buddhist. This is Dogen. I'd like to introduce one of his dharma, I mean, informal talk before San Sui Kyo.

[37:18]

at Koshoji, recorded in Shobo Genzo Zuimonki. Zuimonki is a collection of Dogen's informal talk at Koshoji. It's section 5-7. Dogen says, There is an old saying which goes, although the power of a wise man exceeds that of an ox, he does not fight with the ox. Now, students, even if you think that your wisdom and knowledge is superior to others, you should not be fond of arguing with them. This is Dogen's teaching to his students.

[38:30]

Don't argue. Moreover, you should not abuse others with violent words or glare at others angrily. Despite having been given great wealth and receiving the favor of some person, people in this age definitely have negative feelings if the donor were to display anger and slander them with harsh words. So Dogen said we should not use harsh words. Once Zen master Shinjo Kokubun, this is a Chinese Zen master, told his students, in former times, I practiced together with Seppo, or Shuufen. Once, Seppo was discussing the Dharma loudly with another student in the monk's dormitory.

[39:38]

Eventually, they began to argue using harsh words and, in the end, wound up quarreling with each other. After the argument was over, Seppo said to me, you and I are close friends, practicing together with one mind. Our friendship is not shallow. Why didn't you help me when I was arguing with that man? So friends should be helpful. Friends. I think that is true. But at that time, I could do nothing but feel small, holding my hands and bowing my head. So he couldn't apologize that he didn't help him in his friend's argument.

[40:42]

And later, Seppo became an eminent master, and I, too, I'm now a nabot. What I thought at the time was that suppose discussion of the Dharma was ultimately meaningless. Needless to say, quarreling was wrong. Since I thought it was useless to fight, I kept silent. This is the Master Shinjo Kokubun's saying about his experiences, which is one of his friends who was arguing with other people. And student of this, this is Dogen, student of the way, you also should consider this thoroughly. As long as you aspire to make diligent effort

[41:46]

in learning the way, you must be begrudging with your time. So we have no time to waste in argument. When do you have time to argue with others? Ultimately, it brings about no benefit to you or to others. This is so even in the case of arguing about the Dharma. much more about worldly affairs. Even though the power of a wise man is stronger than that of an ox, he does not fight with the ox. Even if you think that you understand the Dharma more deeply than others, do not argue, criticize, or try to defeat them. If there is a sincere student who asked you about the Dharma, you should not begrudge telling him about it.

[43:00]

You should explain it to him. However, even in such a case, before responding, wait until Responding, wait until you have been asked three times. Neither speak too much, nor talk about meaningless matters. After reading these words of Shinjo, I thought that I myself had this fault. So he knew. He knew he had this fault. After reading these words of Shinjo, I thought that I myself had this fault and that he was admonishing me.

[44:07]

I have subsequently never argued about the Dharma with others. This is what he is saying. when he was, I think, 36 years old. And when he wrote Sansuikyo, he was 40. You know, in Shobo Gendoshi Shobo, he said, one thing which is most difficult to change is people's mind. And I think this is one of the evidence. He was really very intellectual and I think also very argumentative. He was good at argument, I think, since he was very young. I talked about 75 volumes of Shobo Genzo and 60 volumes of Shobo Genzo.

[45:25]

And 60 volumes of Shobo Genzo were made by Gi-un, the fifth abbot of Eheiji. scholar monks in the 17th century, so that Gion selected those 60 volumes. and select out other things. And one of the standards of Gion's selection is he tried to, how can I say, hide that chapter's slogan, used a hush criticism toward a boss. And I think I'm happy to read Sansuikyo. But we must be very careful.

[46:31]

This is Dogen's karma, I think. And he didn't hide. I think that is another important point. And also, many scholars discuss why Dogen had to say in this way. such a strong, harsh, how can I say, criticism toward others. One of the reasons scholars think is this is not the criticism actually toward the people in China or toward people in Rinzai tradition. but toward his own students. Because, you know, his own students, many of Dogen's own students came from one of the early Zen movements in Japan.

[47:43]

And that school was called Nihon Darumashu. the school of Japanese Dharma. This is one school of Zen, kind of a new movement of Zen before Dogen. You know, Eisai was the first Japanese priest who went to China. and transmitted Zen to Japan and established Kenrin-ji. And that was where Dogen practiced with his teacher, Myojo, I mean Myozen. But at the same time, as a contemporary of Eisai, there was another Japanese Zen teacher whose name was Dainichi Nonin. This person practiced Zen by himself, without any teacher, because there was no Zen teacher there at that time.

[48:50]

And he thought he attained enlightenment. And he started to teach. So he was a kind of a self-made Zen teacher. But after Eisai came back from China, people started to kind of criticize this person's Zen because this person has no transmission from teacher. So, what this person, Dainichi Noin, did was he sent two of his students to China with his letter about his understanding of Dharma. And those two of his Dainichi Noin's disciples visited Zen Master in China, whose name was Setsuan Tokko. Setsuan Tokko was a teacher of Musai Ryokan, who was the abbot of Tien-tung Monastery, and Dogen practiced.

[49:56]

Anyway, this Chinese Zen Master recognized this Dainichi Nonin's enlightenment. and through letter he received transmission. But still people around him thought that was not a genuine transmission. Anyway, this Dainichi Noin was very popular Zen Master and he had many students. But, Dainichi Nonin was killed by his nephew. He was a samurai. Anyway, and Dainichi Nonin's disciple was Kakuan.

[51:00]

And Kakuan also received transmission from Dainichi Nonin. And Kakuan's students were... Kakuan also had many students. And one of them was Ejo. Ejo was Dogen's dharma successor. But Ejo was first disciple of this person, Kakuan. And when Dogen came back from China and stayed at Kenrin-ji, Ejo visited Dogen, not to study with him, to argue, to check what Dogen brought back from China. Ejo thought he had already attained enlightenment, so he wanted to check what is new from China. And he visited Dogen and kind of had a dharma discussion for three days.

[52:08]

And Dogen's biography written by Keizan said, A few days later, Dogen agreed to whatever Ejo said. As Dogen said in Zuimonki, he didn't argue. But after a few days, Dogen started to talk about different things. When he really talked with, encountered with people, I think he didn't say in this way. I think he knows how to speak. Anyway, and Ejo found Dogen's teaching was much, much profounder than his own understanding. So, Ejo wanted to become his disciple. But, you know, because at that time Dogen didn't have his own monastery, you know, he couldn't take his students.

[53:12]

So, Ejo left. And, after Dogen founded his own monastery, Koshoji, Ejo came and joined Dogen Sanga. That was 1235. So, actually, Ejo was a student who was from that school called Nihon Darumashu. And, after Ejo, another student of Kakuan, whose name was Ekan. This person, Ekan, already had his own students. So, this person was already a teacher. But this person and his students joined Dogen Sanga. And those students, such as Gikai, Gi-en, Gi-in. All those people have Gi in their names.

[54:15]

And, you know, those people, the disciples of Ekan, were a major part of Dogen's Sangha. And they succeeded Dogen's teachings. And they formed the Arisoto tradition. So, when those people became Dogen's students, they had already certain understanding and certain style of practice they transmitted from Dainichi Nonin. So, Dogen had to kind of transform their understanding and practice into his own Dogen's you know, way. So, in order to do so, this is a scholar's guess. Togen needs to use a very strong statement.

[55:18]

Otherwise, his own student doesn't, you know, understand what Togen really wants. And some scholars think this is not really Chinese Zen practitioners problem, but this is a problem his student had. That was one of the kind of excuse of Dogen to use such a strong message. So, this message is not to Chinese people or not to, you know, Rinzai people, because there are not many Rinzai people at the time of Dogen. So, this message, this kind of a very harsh criticism toward this kind of attitude is not toward people outside of his Sangha, but toward his own students.

[56:24]

Please. There is a sentence in here that I think is very important. They do not know that thought is Okay, so I don't want to about his hush words, but I'd like to talk about the point of his Dogen criticism. What is the point? I don't want to talk about his hush words. So, the point of these people or these people's saying, Dogen is trying to criticize, is the part of

[57:34]

Each mountain moving over the water was Nansen's sickle. Do you know the koan of Nansen's sickle? No. One day, Nansen was walking on the mountain, maybe cutting grass with a sickle. And a traveling monk visiting Nansen came there, passed by Nansen, and asked Nansen, which person I should take to go to Nansen. And that person is Nansen. And Nansen said, I bought this sickle with, I don't know, three dollars or 13 cents or whatever, the cost of the sickle. I bought this, you know, maybe, I think it's cheap one. I bought this cheap. And the monk asked, I don't ask about the sickle. I don't ask about the price of the sickle, but I want to know how to go to Nansen."

[58:41]

And Nansen said, this sickle is very sharp. I could cut grass very well. That's the end of the story. You know, there are many of this kind of story in Zen koans. And people, certain Zen students, think these koans, like Joshu's Mu, or Joshu's Ti, or Joshu's Cypress Trees, don't make any sense. And, you know, the East Mountain Walk Over the Water is the same kind of koan, according to these people. The point of this kind of a nonsense koan is, as these people think, negation of thought, or discriminating thought.

[59:45]

So, enlightenment is, or the reality of all beings is beyond discriminating thought. So, in order to see that reality beyond thinking, we have to cut off all the thought. In order to allow students to see that reality beyond thinking, those Zen masters use this kind of nonsense koan. So, when we study koan, we should stop thinking. Anyway, we cannot comprehend these things, these expressions. That is those Zen masters' intention. not to allow people to think. So, you know, we are deluded because of our thinking. So, when we cut off the thinking, that means not thinking, then we see the reality.

[60:47]

I mean, this is one understanding of Zen, I think. One understanding of Zen practice, you know, thinking, any thought, cut off all the thought, then you will see reality. Please. Because I'm a student of Dogen, my practice is not for cut off my thought. I never cut off my thought. In Rinzai practice, one year before I came to this country, in 1993, I lived in a Catholic monastery, not a monastery, but a Catholic nunnery in Kyoto, because I left the temple.

[61:52]

And because I had to support my family, I needed a kind of a job. and a friend of mine who is working for a Buddhist publisher gave me a transcription work and he asked me to transcribe a Japanese rei rinzai master's teisho. So, I transcribed 24 tapes, one hour each. So, he explained his practice. Since I have no experience of Rinzai Zen or Koan Zen, this is only source of my understanding of Koan practice. This person, his name is Tsuji Soume. He was not a priest, but he was a lay master of Rinzai.

[62:57]

And he said, in Rinzai practice, you know, especially in the beginning, Rinzai teacher didn't recommend students to read any Buddhist texts. Because, he said, because those are just obstacles. Until you attain Kensho. All knowledge before... attaining Kensho is just an obstacle. One funny thing I heard from an American who practiced in Rinzai Monastery was only books they were allowed to read in Rinzai Monastery are comic books. No Buddhist books. And beginners of Rinzai practitioners were requested to just work with koan of Mu, or sound of one hand, clapping.

[64:16]

And he described his own experience of this practice, focused on counting breath, or just move. And whatever miscellaneous destructive thought comes up, he just stops it and focuses on this move, or sound of one hand, or counting breath. When he really concentrated, it took him a long time, many years, but when he really, really completely focused on that move, no thought really came up. He was really free from everything. I cannot talk about this because this is not my own personal experience, but he said, once you

[65:23]

attain or such an experience, then you understand Zen teaching or Buddhist text. So, according to this teacher, Kensho is not the end of their practice, but that is a kind of a start point, beginning of their practice. After they have such an experience, you know, they have to study many other koans. In order to study Koan, they have to read many texts. They have to understand many Buddhist teachings. But some Rinzai practitioners thought that is the purpose, that is the end or goal of their practice, to eliminate all thoughts. I think, you know, this kind of understanding that when we eliminate all thought, we experience that kind of condition of our mind, you know, we are really liberated and we don't need to do anything else.

[66:40]

We are happy the rest of our life. I think that is the kind of a misunderstanding, I think, even in Rinzai practice. So, that is the point, I think, Dogen tried to caution to his own student, to eliminate your thought and just be as you are. And no thinking is not enlightenment. That is not our goal. You know, I have been practicing Zazen for 30 years. So I had experienced many different conditions. And sometimes, you know, I had the experience of no thought. Actually, no thought come up. Just be there. It was very pleasant.

[67:42]

But because from the beginning of my practice, I thought any condition, you know, is in the scenery of the Zen, so I don't feel that is a good part of the Zen. And sometimes I have... my mind is so busy, so destructive, but still that is part of my Zen, so I don't care. And when my mind is busy, I try to sit. upright and breathe deeply and smoothly and keep my eyes open and whenever I find salt is there, I try to let go. Sometimes my mind is like a cloudy day.

[68:44]

You know, the entire sky is covered with clouds. Sometimes I have beautiful clouds, like in the spring. And sometimes my mind can be completely blue without any thought. That is OK. But whatever condition of our mind, that is a scenery of our zazen, or a scenery of our life. So we don't, at least, I don't cling to any condition of my mind. If we think this is a favorable condition, and this is an unfavorable condition, then we create samsara in our Zazen. I want to get there. I want to experience this more often, or longer. Yeah.

[70:01]

Yeah. I think so too. So even in Rinzai practice, you know, eliminating thought is not the goal, as I said. That is a kind of a preparation to study Dharma. But some students think that is a goal. I think that is a point Togen tried to say. Please. Body. Body. To aware of sensation of your body.

[71:12]

That is what I think also another style of meditation practice. But at least what I learned from my teacher, you know, whether mind or mental and physical, any condition is just a condition. So, in my practice, the most important thing is just keep the upright posture. Breathe deeply from my abdomen and keep our eyes open. and let go whatever coming up from my consciousness. That's all I do. And I try to keep this posture in any conditions. So, you know, to create certain condition of our mind, our awareness, our physical

[72:15]

you know, state, is not the purpose of this sitting. But, I don't like the word purpose, but the point of this practice, sitting practice, is to keep the upright posture. Not only physical posture, but upright posture and awareness or awakening to whatever is going on within and without So, in our Zazen, I think we are like the blue sky. And so many things are coming and going. Like a cloud somehow appears and stays for a while and goes away. And we don't control clouds because it's not possible and it's not necessary. But just, you know, let any cloud come up and go away. So in our Zazen, we are like a sky, like a blue sky.

[73:20]

And depending upon the condition we are in, many different scenarios come up and go away. And we don't control anything. But even when our mind is completely covered with clouds, or even when we have a storm, Sometimes we have storm. I think... Important point, I think, is kind of a faith or trust that above the clouds, there is always blue sky. Always sun is shining. But I think that is one of the important points in our practice. That is, we are already in the mountain. And also, another point is we cannot live above the clouds.

[74:23]

So we are always conditioned. But if we only see below the clouds, we are moved and overwhelmed by each condition we are in. So we need trust or faith that blue sky and shining sun is always there, above the clouds, even though we cannot see it. I think that is our faith or trust. I don't have much time to talk on Dogen's point. want to say here is to eliminate the thought is not our practice, is not enlightenment. And what he's saying is, you know, since, you know, as human beings we have ability to think, so cut off this ability of thinking does not make us a better person.

[75:37]

We have to use how to we need to understand how to use this ability of thinking as a tool to see the reality, to understand the reality more deeply or more closely. And I think, this is my thought, our thought is just like an incomplete map, incomplete copy of reality. So, if we think this thinking, my thinking is always right, this thinking is reality itself, we usually do, then we are deluded. We miss the reality beyond thinking. But, you know, our map is, as I said,

[76:39]

yesterday, our map is always incomplete. Because the reality has three dimensions, but our map has only two dimensions. So whatever way we make map or atlas, something is distorted. And the center of the map is usually ourselves. And so the places, part of the map near the center is relatively correct or accurate. But the edges of the world is distorted. Like, you know, Greenland is bigger than the United States in certain maps. Or something we like, seems bigger than it is. And something we hate also looks much bigger than as it is.

[77:45]

And something we are not care, or we are not interested in, seems much smaller than as it is. So, the way we see the world, or things, is not really, not exact scenery of the reality. but somehow our world is distorted. So the most important thing for me to see is our map is distorted. Then we are free from our map. And our Zazen is not a method to correct the distortion of our map, but our Zazen is How can I say? Place or put our entire body on the earth. Not on the map. On the ground, on the ground of reality.

[78:48]

But usually we put our life on the map. That is our thinking. So, our way of practice, our Dazen practice is not collection of maps. And also, our practice is not to throw the map away. We sit with this map, this distorted map. So, all different kinds of thoughts come up. That is the result of our karma. But, when we see this map is not complete, perfect, then we have a kind of a revelation from our own system of value or our own opinion. This little revelation, I think, makes our way of life different, changes.

[79:54]

I think this is a very important point. As Sarakuro said, it's good for nothing. Which doesn't make our map more accurate. Our map is still distorted. Like as Dogen said, even though we are on the ocean bottom, still we are a frog. And we have to practice with this frog that is coming. limited. But in our Zazen, you know, we put our entire beings not in the well, but in the ocean. And I think that is the way we are liberated from our karmic consciousness. And not only that, but we use this karmic consciousness or distorted map

[80:58]

for the sake of the Dharma, for the sake of this entire interpenetrated reality of life. I think that is the point of our practice. That is what Phat Dogen wanted to teach, but probably many of his students Zen is a certain method to stop thinking. So this is a kind of extreme. Because another extreme is grasping our thought, our opinion, our understanding. And this is another extreme that we have to give up any thought, any opinion, anything. But Dogen wants to show the middle path between those two.

[82:04]

And that is the point. And that is what he is saying, as you said. They do not know that thought is words. Thought is words. Thought is, in this case, thinking. Or discrimination is words. So words came from our discrimination, our thoughts. our distorted map. But, he said, they do not know that words are liberated from thought. Words are liberated from thought. I think this is a very wonderful teaching. Even though words came from thought, but words are liberated from thought. How can we speak or express or write any word which is liberated from thought.

[83:10]

This is really important. Then our words can be expression of Dharma, not expression of this person's karmic consciousness or desire. Anyway, that is what I have to say. Please. Yes. Yes. So, his word is very free. Free from even the grammar. Even the logic.

[84:17]

He is free from grammar or logic. That's why his writing is so difficult. Full of paradox and contradiction. And which makes us suffer. And that is a good, you know, practice for us to be free from our thoughts. Let me read one last sentence of this section because I'd like to start this afternoon from the next section. We should realize that this teaching of the East Mountain moving over the water is the very bones and marrow of the Buddhas and ancestors. This is very important. All the waters are appearing at the foot of the East Mountain, and therefore the mountains mount the clouds and stride through the heavens. The mountains are the peaks of the waters, and in both ascending and descending, their walk is over the water.

[85:29]

The tips of the mountain's feet walk across the waters, setting them dancing. Therefore, their walking is seven high and eight across, and their practice and verification are not non-existent. The expression seven high and eight across means free, very freely. So his usage of words is very free, and his way of life is also liberated from his own understanding. But still he's writing in this way, these kind of harsh words. But in this comment, Fatty's water is not clear. I think in the next section, he discussed about the water.

[86:35]

That's why he didn't explain what is the water here. OK, please. I just want to understand how you have a word for that pause. It's not in the teaching of the appropriate response. Appropriate response. Oh, this sentence is kind of difficult to understand. I mean, it sounds like, on the surface, it sounds like Dogen is criticizing umu. He is saying umu is not liberated from this work of skin, flesh, bone and marrow of this walking.

[87:43]

But, I don't think this is a criticism. You know, not liberated here, I think, means the Unmong is really walking with the East Mountain. But some scholars or commentators had a doubt about this sentence. And this should not be woman, but this should be people, not woman. OK, thank you very much.

[88:29]

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