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2002.03.13-serial.00069
This talk delves into Master Unmon's (Yunmen) saying, "The East Mountain moves over the water," exploring its significance in Zen teachings. The discussion critiques modern interpretations of Zen that favor incomprehensibility and argues that enlightenment involves actively transcending Buddhahood. It emphasizes Dogen's stance that practice and enlightenment should occur simultaneously and that understanding arises not from eliminating thought but from integrating it within practice and liberation.
- Unmon's Saying: Discussed as a metaphor for the dynamic activity of Buddhist practice and the embodiment of enlightenment within the world.
- Dogen's Teachings: Explored in relation to the interpretation of Unmon's saying, emphasizing unity of practice (shu) and realization (sho) instead of static enlightenment.
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Kansazengi and Fukanzazengi: Used to challenge literal translations and to argue that actual practice involves transcending the traditional confines of Buddhahood.
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Referenced Works:
- "Fukanzazengi" by Dogen: This work highlights the notion of transcending traditional Enlightenment, suggesting that entering Buddhahood is not an endpoint but part of a dynamic practice.
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"Shobo Genzo" by Dogen: Frequently referenced in terms of its critique of understanding enlightenment as merely analytical or comprehension-based.
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Critical Discussions and Commentators:
- Ulsop's Translation: Critiqued for potentially misrepresenting the question about the source of Buddhahood.
- Leman Fu’s Verse: Analyzed to support the idea that enlightenment is found in the worldly, tangible practices, indicating genuine emancipation is not a distant or unreachable concept.
AI Suggested Title: Mountain and Water: Zen's Living Enlightenment
Good morning, everyone. This morning, I'm going to talk on the news section about Umon's saying. Page 12, the second paragraph from the bottom, right side. The great master Yunmeng, Quanzhen, has said, the East Mountain moves over the water. Let me read one more paragraph. The importance of this expression is that all mountains are the East Mountain. and all these east mountains are moving over the water. Therefore, Mount Sumeru and the other nine mountains are all appearing, are all practicing and verifying the Buddhadharma.
[01:15]
This is called the east mountain. But how could Unmen himself be liberated from the skin, flesh, bones, and marrow of the East Mountain and its life of practice and verification? So Dogen comments on Unmen's saying, which is also very short. The East Mountain Moves Over the Water. This is Umon's answer to a question from a monk. And this question and answer is from Umon's record. If you are familiar with this book, Master Umen,
[02:17]
yunmen, or unmon in Japanese. The question and answer is in this book. The question is, according to this translation, this is by Ulthap. Someone asked, what is the place from whence all the Buddhas come? what is the place from whence all the Buddhas come? And Master Unmen said, where the east mountains walk on the river. So this statement is the answer to the question, where is the place from whence all the Buddhas come? So where are all the Buddhas from? And the woman said, the east mountains walk on the river.
[03:25]
I have a question about this translation. You know, the answer is okay, but the question, the meaning of the question, in Chinese his question is here is the shobutsu shushin no tokoro shobutsu is all buddhas the place And this is shushin in Japanese pronunciation. So the point is what this shushin means. Shutsu means to exit. Shin is body.
[04:35]
Exit or get out. And in this translation, he translated this phrase as a place from where Buddha come. So this here is a place Buddha is from. So Buddha is now here, and he came somewhere and the meaning of the question, where is that place Buddha is from? I think that is the meaning according to this translation. But I don't know, I don't agree with this translation because of the meaning of this shushin. actually as a common or even in modern Japanese, this shushin means, where are you from?
[05:40]
So it's not mistaken as a literal translation. For example, I'm from Osaka and so I said, I am, how can I say, Shushin is Osaka. So in that sense, this translation is not mistaken, but as a meaning or at least Dogen's usage of this word. Sometimes Dogen twist the meaning of the words, so I'm not sure whether what Unmen or the monk who asked Unmen meant, But when we study Dogen, we have to interpret the word Dogen used according to his understanding. And this word is used in Fukanda Zenki.
[06:40]
In this translation, of Kansazengi, the last part of the first paragraph of Kansazengi, he says, "'Suppose you are confident in your understanding and reach in enlightenment, gaining the wisdom that knows at a glance, attaining the way and clarifying the mind, arousing an aspiration to reach for the heavens. you are praying in the entrance way, but you are still short of the vital path of emancipation. I think all of you are familiar with this part of Fukanzazengi.
[07:49]
And in the last sentence, you are praying in the entrance way, but you are still short of the vital path of emancipation. In this sentence, entrance way is a translation of ni-to. Ni means to enter. To is head. And vital path of emancipation is shushin no katsuro. Katsuro is vital path or vital way of emancipation. This emancipation is a translation of this word shushin. And so this shushin and this nytto are corresponding.
[08:51]
So even what Dogen is saying is, suppose you are confident in your understanding and rich in enlightenment, gaining the wisdom that knows at a glance, attaining the way and clarifying the mind. Allowing an aspiration to reach for the heavens. You know, this is almost like enlightenment or enlightened. But he says, this is still just such a person, still praying in the entrance way, nitto no original word is henryo, means the border, just the entrance. So that means that your head is in that border.
[09:57]
to of the maybe Buddhahood. You are just, only your head is getting to the more barrier of the Buddhahood. And still the lack of vital way, vital path of emancipation. So this vital path of emancipation means we should, our body should get out, get out of the Buddhahood. That is very important thing in Dogen's teaching. We should get out of the border of the Buddhahood. Just get into the Buddhahood is not enough. We should go out. Our body should be completely get out of the Buddhahood. That is what Dogen called the matter of going beyond Buddha. So we cannot stick, stay in the Buddhahood, but we have go beyond Buddhahood.
[11:08]
That means Buddha is still walking. Buddha food is not somewhere we can stay. Like Dogen said in Shobo Gendo Uji, now you are staying in a Barbinian palace as a Buddha and just sitting quietly. But Buddha have to go out. of the Buddhahood and come to the samsara and teach others and help others. That is, you know, the matter of going beyond Buddha. So that, I think, that is the meaning of this word, shushin. So the meaning of this monk's question is not fear the Buddha is wrong, But I think this question means, what is the place where Buddha is free from Buddhahood?
[12:13]
How Buddha works in the world? How Buddha continue to practice in the world, in samsara, with all living beings? So I think the meaning of the question is opposite. And if the meaning of the question is where is the place Buddha is from, then that is somewhere else. But here, this monk is asking, where is Buddha is working right now? It came from the Buddha food. at least this moment, right now, right here, or Nikon, the first Dogen Road in Sanshi-cho, the mountains and waters at the present, so this present moment. What Unmon said is,
[13:20]
east mountain walks over the water. So the mountain is Buddha in this case. Mountain is walking. That is, Buddha is still walking. on the mountains and rivers crossing over. So, Buddhahood is not our goal. Buddhahood should be right now, right here. Buddha should walk with all beings and walk through rivers and mountains together with all living beings. I think that is the meaning of this, at least my interpretation of this question and answer. And according to Ulsop, this woman's answer is from a verse by a Chinese kind of a lay Zen master or Zen adept whose name was Fu, Rayman Fu.
[14:40]
He is, according to the Keitoku Dentoroku, or Record of Transmission of Lamp, he is the contemporary of Bodhidharma. And he was not a Buddhist monk, but he was a layperson. But somehow he practiced with his family. And it's said that he was the first person who built the storage of sutras. called Hozo. And at the Sutra, storage of Sutra, or library, the monastery, this person is enshrined. And if you go to Japanese temples, Japanese Zen temples, and if you find a person sitting on the chair and holding his hand like this, is that person.
[15:49]
I don't know why he holds hands like this. I don't quite remember, but if my memory was correct, he was looking that Bodhidharma is coming from the West. I'm not sure it's true or not. But anyway, the verse by this person who, Reiman Hu, in his translation is as follows. Where the east mountains, so here east mountains are plural, east mountains, float on the river, and the west mountains, here's another, you know, west mountains too, And the west mountains wander on and on. So both east mountains and west mountains are walking.
[16:53]
And in the realm of this world, beneath the great deeper, great deeper, the stars in the north, just there is the place of genuine emancipation. So this has connected with this monk's question. This is a place of genuine emancipation, freedom, liberation. And maybe the third sentence is not clear in this translation. The great dipper in original verse is Hokuto. This is a Chinese or Japanese name for great dipper. Hokuto means, I don't know what to mean, but Hok means north.
[17:55]
And the real name of this word is a translation of Enbu. Enbu is an abbreviation of Nan Enbu Dai. Nan Enbu Dai, I forget the Sanskrit word, is the name of this continent south of the Sumer. Yeah. So, jump? I cannot pronounce. Anyway, Mbudai in Japanese pronunciation. And so in this name of this, there is a word, nan, means south. So in this verse, you know, Raymond Fu is talking about, you know, east, west, north, and south. That means all over. So what he is saying is all over, wherever we are in this ten-direction world is the place of genuine emancipation.
[19:05]
So this is the place of emancipation or shushin. Actually, Leman Fu didn't use the word shushin, but he used gedatsu, but meaning with the same. Gedatsu is liberation or emancipation. So what Ume is saying is, I think, is the same as what Leman Fu is saying. That is, the place of emancipation of all Buddhas is not somewhere else but this world of samsara. And next paragraph is Dogen's comment.
[20:31]
Dogen doesn't make much comment on this koan, but he criticized the understanding or sayings of some people at the time of Dogen about this saying. So his comment on this thing is very short. It just says, the import of this expression is that all mountains are the east mountain. So east mountain is not one particular mountain, but he is saying all mountains are east mountains. You know, there's no such a place called East. You know, we say, well, Asia is East and America and Europe are West, but actually America is the East of Japan.
[21:34]
You know, there's no such a place called East. and not such a place called the West. When we walk around the world, we go back to the original place. So in that sense, everywhere is East, and everywhere is West. And everywhere is south or north. So there's no such particular place called east, west, north or south. Forever we are the center of the world, as I said before. I mean yesterday. So when Unmon is talking about east mountain, that means all mountains, all mountains are walking over the water. And that is a way Buddha express or Buddhas express their emancipation, their liberation.
[22:35]
If Buddha or the mountain have to stay one place on the lotus seat, then this Buddha is not really liberated from the Buddhahood. So Buddha should stand up from the blaster and start to walk. And Fathumo is saying is Buddha is really walking. And the way Buddha walks is the way we practice. So within our practice, Buddha is walking. That is what Dogen really wants to say in this Sanshi-kyo. And therefore Mount Sumeru and the other nine mountains are all appearing, are all practicing and verifying the Buddha Dharma.
[23:40]
Mount Sumeru is the center of this entire universe in the Indian or Buddhist cosmology. And there are nine... How can I say? It's not a circle, but a square of the mountains. Well, I checked... Buddhist cosmology book, and I found an illustration of this world. According to Buddhist cosmology described in Abhidharma Kosha, our world is like this. It's too small, but on the top of this, how do you call this shape?
[24:50]
Cylinder. There is a mountain here. The center of the world is Mount Sumeru. And there are maybe you can take a look at it later, but around the Mount Sumeru, there are nine square of mountains, and our continent, Jambudipa, is south of the Sumeru. And underneath this ocean and the earth, there is first a golden earth layer. That is the earth. And below the earth, there is a water circle. And below that water cycle, there is a wind circle.
[25:51]
So according to Abhidharma Kosha, this world is supported by the wind, wind circle. And later, Dogen mentioned about this water circle and wind circle in this writing. Anyway. So he said, all the mountains in this world, in this universe, are the east mountain. And all mountains without any exception, are appearing and all practicing and verifying the Buddha Dharma, all mountains. Not only those mountains such as Sumeru, or other nine mountains, or Mount Fuji, or Mount Elvesto, or whatever mountains.
[26:53]
Actually, we are the top of the mountains. We are the mountains, as I said before. And this mountain is walking. And this walking of the mountain is practice and enlightenment. Practicing and verifying is a translation of Shusho, Shu and Sho. And Dogen's basic teaching is this Shu and this Sho together as a compound, one thing. But usually Shu and Sho are two separate things in our common sense or in the common understanding of Buddhism.
[28:00]
Because Shu is a cause, and show is the result. So, you know, as I said maybe yesterday, we, as a bodhisattva, we allow the body-mind and start to practice. And through our practice we attain enlightenment or awakening and we become Buddha, billions of years later. this becoming Buddha is show or awakening is show. And this show literally means verification or proof or evidence. But Dogen said, show our practice and show the result of practice are one thing. So within this within our practice in this moment, show or result is already here because show is a
[29:11]
how can I say, is a seed of lotus. And actually, you know, the lotus flower is used as a metaphor or a symbol of Wanderer's Dharma because within the flower, seed is already there. That is one of the meanings of the metaphor of the lotus flower. So the walking of mountains or practicing of each one of us, within this practice, within this walking, Buddha is manifesting itself. So our practice, moment by moment, is an intersection of our process of our practicing, studying and deepening our understanding and experience, and also the process of Buddha walk in this world.
[30:22]
Do you understand what I mean? That is our practice. I hope you understand. So everything is practicing. All mountains are practicing. Dogen said, this is called the mountain. This constant walk of mountain is the East Mountain. And from next paragraph, Dogen criticizes people at his time about the understanding of this saying of unmon.
[31:24]
Let me read two paragraphs. At the present time, in the land of the Great Song, Song is the name of the dynasty when Dogen visited China. So land of Great Song means China. There is a certain bunch of illiterates who have formed such a crowd that they cannot be overcome by the few real students. They maintain that things such as this, east mountain moving over the water, or non-quant or nonsense siku are incomprehensible talk.
[32:36]
Their idea is that any saying that is involved with thought is not a Zen saying of the Buddhas and ancestors. It is incomprehensible sayings that are the sayings of Buddhas and ancestors. Consequently, they hold that Huanbo's stick and Linji's roar. because they are difficult to comprehend and cannot be grasped by thought, represent the great awakening preceding the time before the germination of any subtle sign. that tangle-cutting phrases often used as devices by earlier worthy are, they say, incomprehensible.
[33:42]
Those who talk in this way, this is Dogen's criticism against those people, those who talk in this way have never met a true teacher. and lack the eye of study. They are worthless little fools. There have been many such sons of Mara, Mara means demon, and Jiang of Six, shaped in the land of Song for the last two or three hundred years. This is truly regrettable, for it presents the decline of the great way of the Buddhas and ancestors. Their understanding is inferior to that of the Hinayana Srivakas, more foolish than that even of non-Buddhists.
[34:54]
They are not laymen. They are not monks. They are not humans. They are not gods. They are dhammas and beasts that study the way of the Buddha. What you shavelings call incomprehensible saying is incomprehensible only to you. not to the Buddhas and ancestors. Simply because you yourself do not comprehend the sayings is no reason for you not to study the paths comprehended by the Buddhas and ancestors. Even granted that Zen teachings were, in the end, incomprehensible, this comprehension of yours would also be wrong.
[36:05]
Such types are common throughout all quarters of the state of song. I have seen them with my own eyes. They are to be pitied. They do not know that thought is words. Thought is words. They do not know that words are liberated from thought. When I was in the song, I made fun of them, but they never had an explanation. never a word to say for themselves, just this false notion of theirs about incomprehensibility. Who could have taught you this? Though you have no natural teacher, you are natural little non-Buddhists." This is Dogen.
[37:13]
I'd like to introduce one of his Dharma, I mean, informal talk before Sansui-kyo at Koshoji, recorded in Shobo Genzo Zuimonki. Zuimonki is a collection of Dogen's informal talk at Koshoji. It's a section 5-7. Dogen says, There is an old saying which goes, Although the power of a wise man exceeds that of an ox, he does not fight with the ox. Now, students, even if you think that your wisdom and knowledge is superior to others, you should not be fond of arguing with them.
[38:26]
This is Dogen's teaching to his students. Don't argue. Moreover, you should not abuse others with violent words or glare at others angrily. Despite having been given great wealth and receiving the favor of some person, people in this age would definitely have negative feelings if the donor were to display anger and slander them with harsh words. So Dogen said we should not use harsh words. Once, Zen Master Shinjo Kokubun, this is a Chinese Zen master, told his students, in former times, I practiced together with Seppo, or Shufen, once Seppo was discussing the Dharma loudly with another student in the monk's dormitory.
[39:38]
Eventually, They began to argue using hash words and in the end wound up quarreling with each other. After the argument was over, Seppo said to me, you and I are close friends, practicing together with one mind. Our friendship is not shallow. Why didn't you help me when I was arguing with that man? So friends should be helped. Friends. I think that is true. But at that time, I could do nothing but feel small, holding my hands and bowing my head." So he couldn't apologize that he didn't help him in his friend's argument.
[40:42]
And later, Seppo became an eminent master. And I, too, am now a nabot. What I thought at the time was that Seppo's discussion of the Dharma was ultimately meaningless. Needless to say, quarreling was wrong. Since I thought it was useless to fight, I kept silent. This is the Master Shinjo Kokubun saying about his experiences with one of his friends who was arguing with other people. And this is Dogen, student of the way. You also should consider this thoroughly. As long as you aspire to make diligent effort in learning the way, you must be begrudging with your time.
[41:53]
So we have no time to waste in argument. When do you have time to argue with others? Ultimately, it brings about no benefit to you or to others. This is so even in the case of arguing about the Dharma. Much more about worldly affairs. Even though the power of a wise man is stronger than that of an ox, he does not fight with the ox. Even if you think that you understand the Dharma more deeply than others, do not argue, criticize, or try to defeat them. If there is a sincere student who asked you about the Dharma, you should not begrudge telling him about it.
[43:00]
you should explain it to him. However, even in such a case, before responding, wait until you have been asked three times. Neither speak too much. Noah talked about meaningless matters. After reading these words of Shinjo, I thought that I myself had this fault. So he knew. He knew he had this fault. After reading these words of Shinjo, I thought that I myself had this fault and that he was admonishing me.
[44:07]
I have subsequently never argued about dharma with others." This is what he's saying. When he was, I think, 36 years old, and when he wrote San Suikyo, he was 40. You know, in Shobo Gendo Shishobo, he said that one thing which is most difficult to change is people's mind. And I think this is one of the evidence. He was really very intellectual and I think also very argumentative. He was good at argument, I think, since he was very young. You know, I talked about 75 volumes of Shobo Genzo and 60 volumes of Shobo Genzo.
[45:25]
And 60 volumes of Shobo Genzo was made by Gi-un, the fifth abbot of Heiji. scholar monks in the 17th century thought that Giun selected those 60 volumes and select out other things. And one of the standard of Giun's, you know, this selection is he tried to, how can I say, hide that chapters Dogen used a harsh criticism toward. a boss. And I think I'm happy to read some secure. But we must have, we must be very careful.
[46:31]
You know, this is Dogen's karma, I think. And he didn't hide. I think that is another important point. And also, many scholars discuss why Dogen had to say in this way. you know, such a strong, harsh criticism toward others. And one of the reasons scholar thinks this is not the criticism toward the people in China or toward people in Rinzai tradition, but toward his own students. Because his own students, many of Dogen's own students came from
[47:31]
one, so called, one of the early Zen movement in Japan. And that school was called Nihon Dharma Shu, the school of Japanese Dharma. This is one school of Zen, kind of a new movement of Zen before Dogen. Asai was the first Japanese priest who went to China and transmitted Zen to Japan and established Kenrinji. And that was where Dogen practiced with his teacher Myojo, I mean Myoden. But at the same time, as a contemporary of Eisai, there was another Japanese Zen teacher whose name was Dainichi Nonin.
[48:39]
This person practiced Zen by himself without any teacher, because there was no Zen teacher there at that time. And he thought he attained enlightenment. and he started to teach. So he was a kind of a self-made Zen teacher. But after Eisai came back from China, people started to kind of criticize this person's Zen, because this person has no transmission from teacher. So what this person Dainichi Noin did was he sent two of his students to China with his letter about his understanding of Dharma. And those two of his Dainichi Nonin's disciples visited the master in China, whose name was Setsuan Tokko.
[49:45]
Setsuan Tokko was a teacher of Musai Ryōha, who was the abbot of Tiento Monastery and Dōgen practice. Anyway, this Chinese Zen master recognized this Dainichi Nonin's enlightenment. And through letter, he received transmission. But still, people around him thought that is not a genuine transmission. Anyway, Dainichi Noni seems very popular Zen master, and he had many students. But Dainichi Noni was killed, it's said, by his nephew.
[50:51]
He was a samurai. Anyway, and Dainichi Nonin's disciple was Kakuan. And Kakuan also received transmission from Dainichi Nonin. And Kakuan's students are, I mean, were, Kakuan also had many students. And one of them was Ejo. Ejo was Dogen's Dharma successor. But Ejo was first disciple of this person, Kakuan. And when Dogen came back from China and stayed at Kenrinji, Ejo visited Dogen, not to study with him, but to argue. to check fat dog and brought back from China. Ejo thought he was already attained enlightenment.
[51:53]
So he wanted to check what is new from China. And she visited Dogen and kind of had a Dharma discussion for three days. And Dogen's biography, written by Keizan, said, first few days, Dogen agreed whatever Ejo said. As Dogen said in Zuimonki, he didn't argue. But after a few days, Dogen started to talk different things. When he really talk with encounter with people, I think he didn't say in this way. I think he know how to speak. Anyway. And Ejo found Dogen's teaching was much, much profounder than his own understanding.
[53:00]
So Ejo wanted to become his disciple. But, you know, because at that time Dogen didn't have his own monastery, you know, he couldn't take his students. So Ejo left. And after Dogen founded his own monastery called Shoji, Eijo came and joined Dogen Sangha. That was 1235. So actually Eijo was a student, was from that school called Nihon Darumashu. And after Eijo, another student of Kakuan, whose name was Eikan, this person Eikan already had his own students. So this person was already a teacher. But this person and his students joined Dogen Sanga.
[54:01]
And those students, such as Gikai, Gi-en, Gi-in. All those people have Gi in their names. And, you know, those people, the disciples of Ekan was a major part of Dogen's Sangha. And they succeeded Dogen's teaching, and they formed the Arisoto tradition. So when those people became Dogen students, they had already certain understanding and certain style of practice they transmitted from Dainichi Nonin. So Dogen had to kind of transform their understanding and practice into his own, Dogen's way.
[55:08]
So in order to do so, this is a scholar's guess. Dogen used to use a very strong statement. Otherwise, his own student didn't understand what Dogen really wanted. And some scholars think this is not really Chinese Zen practitioner's problem, but this is a problem his student had. That was one of the kind of excuse of Dogen to use such a strong message. So this message not to Chinese people or not to Rinzai people, because there are not many Rinzai people at the time of Dogen. So this message, this kind of a very harsh criticism toward this kind of attitude is not toward people outside of his sangha, but toward his own students.
[56:22]
Please. There is a sentence over here that I think is... They do not know that thought is words, that words are liberated from thought. I think he works so much with words and language, he doesn't make separation. He's the outside of words and that's the inside of words, but he practices in the words. Okay, so I don't want to discuss about his hash word, but I'd like to talk about the point of his Togen's criticism. What is the point? I don't want to talk about his hash word. So the point of these people or these people's sayings
[57:28]
Dogen is trying to criticize is the part, east mountain moving over the water or Nansen Siku. Do you know the koan of Nansen Siku? No. One day, Nansen was walking on the mountain, maybe cutting grass with a siku. And a traveling monk visiting Nansen Thank you. came there, passed by Nansen, and asked Nansen which path I should take to go to Nansen. And that person is Nansen. And Nansen said, I bought this sickle with, I don't know, $3 or $0.13 or whatever the cost of the sickle. I bought this, you know, maybe. I think it's cheap one. I bought this cheap. And the monk asked, I don't ask about the price of the sickle, but I want to know how to go to Nansen.
[58:41]
And Nansen said, this sickle is very sharp. I could cut grass very well. That's the end of the story. You know, there are many of this kind of story in Zen koans. And people, certain Zen students think these koans, Or there are, you know, like Joshua's moo or Joshua's pea or Joshua's cypress trees. It doesn't make any sense. And, you know, the east mountain walk over the water is some kind of koan according to these people. So the point of this kind of nonsense koan is these people think negation of thought. or discriminating thought.
[59:45]
So enlightenment is, or the reality of all beings, is beyond discriminating thought. So in order to see that reality beyond thinking, we have to cut off all the thought. In order to allow students to see that reality beyond thinking, the masters use this kind of nonsense koan. So when we study koan, we should stop thinking. Anyway, we cannot comprehend these things, these expressions. That is Zen Master's intention, not to allow people to think. So, you know, we are deluded because of our thinking. So when we cut off our thinking, that means not thinking, then we see the reality.
[60:48]
I mean, this is one understanding of Zen, I think, one understanding of Zen practice. You know, eliminate thinking, any thought, cut off all the thought, then you will see reality. Please. Because I'm a student of Dogen, my practice is not for cut off my thought. I never cut off my thought. In Rinzai practice, One year before I came to this country in 1993, I lived in Catholic monastery, not a monastery, but Catholic nunnery in Kyoto because I left the temple.
[61:53]
And because I had to support my family, I need a kind of a job. And a friend of mine who is working for a Buddhist publisher gave me a transcription work. And he asked me to transcribe a Japanese Rei Rinzai Master's Teisho. I transcribed 24 tapes, one hour each. And so he explained his practice, since I have no experience of Rinzai Zen or Koan Zen. this is only source of my understanding of koan practice. And this person, his name is Tsuji Soume. He was not a priest, but he was a rei, master of Rinzai.
[63:00]
He said, in Rinzai practice, you know, especially in the beginning, Rinzai teacher didn't recommend the student to read any Buddhist texts because those are just obstacles until you attain Kensho. All knowledge before attain Kensho is just an obstacle. One funny thing I heard from an American who practiced in Rinzai Monastery was, only books they were allowed to read in Rinzai Monastery are comic books. No Buddhist books. Anyway, the beginners of Rinzai practitioners were requested to just work with Kowa no Mu, or the sound of one hand clapping.
[64:16]
And he described his own experience of this practice, focus on counting breath or just move. And whatever miscellaneous, destructive thought come up, he just stop it and focus on this move or sound of one hand or counting breath. And when he really considered consent, it took him for a long time, many years. But when he really, really completely focused on that move, no thought really came up. He was really free from everything. I cannot talk about this because this is not my own personal experience, but he said, once you attain such an experience, then you understand Zen teaching or Buddhist texts.
[65:35]
So according to this teacher, Kensho is not the end of their practice, but that is a kind of a start point, beginning of their practice. After they had such an experience, they have to study many other koans. And in order to study koans, they have to read many texts, and they have to understand many Buddhist teachings. But some, you know, some Rinzai practitioner thought that is the purpose, that's the end or end goal of their practice to, you know, eliminate all thought. I think, you know, this kind of understanding that when we eliminate all thought, we experience that kind of condition of our mind, you know, we are really liberated and we don't need to do anything else.
[66:40]
We are happy the rest of our life. I think that is kind of a misunderstanding, I think, even in Rinzai practice. So that is the point, I think, Dogen tried to caution to his own student to eliminate your thought and just be as you are. and no thinking is not enlightenment. That is not our goal. You know, I have been practicing zazen for thirty years, so I have experienced many different conditions, and sometimes You know, I had the experience of no thought. Actually, no thought come up. Just be there. So it's very pleasant.
[67:42]
But because from the beginning of my practice, I thought any condition, you know, is in the scenario of the Zen. So I don't feel that is a good part of the Zen. And sometimes my mind is so busy, so destructive. but still that is part of my zazen, so I don't care. And when my mind is busy, I try to sit upright and breathe deeply and smoothly, and keep my eyes open, and whenever I find thought is there, I try to let go. Sometimes my mind is like a cloudy day.
[68:44]
You know, the entire sky is covered with clouds. Sometimes I have, you know, beautiful, you know, clouds, like in the spring. And sometimes my mind can be completely blue without any thought. That is okay. But whatever condition of our mind, that is a scenery of our jazen, or a scenery of our life. So we don't, at least, I don't cling to any condition of my mind. If we think this is a favorable condition and this is unfavorable condition, then we create samsara in our jazen. I want to get there. I want to experience this more often or longer. Yeah.
[70:01]
Yeah. I think so too. So even in in that practice, you know, eliminate thought is not the goal. As I said, that is a kind of preparation to study Dharma. But some students think that is a goal. I think that is a point Dogen tried to say. Please. I hear a lot of other people talking about feeling your body, not only your mind, but perceiving everything with your body, with your emotions, with your intuition, and everything that is here. Would you combine that sort of thing Being aware of the state of the mind. Aware of the body as well. Being aware of the state. I think that's kind of lost in people. Body. To be aware of the sensation of your body.
[71:12]
That is, I think, also another style of meditation practice. But at least what I learned from my teacher, you know, whether mind or mental and physical, any condition is just condition. So in my practice, most important thing is just keep the upright posture, breathe deeply from my abdomen and keep our eyes open and let go whatever coming up from my consciousness. That's all I do. And I try to keep this posture in any conditions. you know, to, how can I say, to create certain condition of our mind, or awareness, or physical, you know, state, is not the purpose of this sitting.
[72:21]
But, I don't like the word purpose, but the point of this practice, sitting practice, is to keep the upright posture. not only physical posture, but upright posture and awareness or awakening to whatever going on within and without our life. So in our jazen, I think we are like the blue sky and so many things are coming and going. like a cloud somehow appear and stay for a while and go away. And we don't control clouds because it's not possible and it's not necessary. But just, you know, let any clouds come up and go away. So in our Zazen, we are like a sky, like a blue sky. And depending upon the condition we are in, many different scenarios come up and go away, and we don't control anything.
[73:32]
But even when our mind is completely covered with clouds, or even when we had a storm, sometimes we had storm, I think important point I think is kind of a faith or trust that above the above the clouds, there is always blue sky, always sun is shining. But I think that is most one of the important point in our practice. That is we are already in the mountain. And also, Another point is we cannot live above the clouds, so we are always conditioned. But if we only see below the clouds, we are moved and overwhelmed by each condition we are in.
[74:39]
So we need to trust or face that the blue sky and shining sun is always there. above the clouds, even though we cannot see. I think that is our faith or trust. I don't have much time to Dogen's point. But Dogen want to say here is to eliminate the thought. is not our practice, is not enlightenment. And what he's saying is, you know, since, you know, as human beings we have ability to think, so cut off this ability of thinking does not make us better person. We have to use how to, we need to understand how to use this ability of thinking as a
[75:47]
maybe as a tool to see the reality, to understand the reality more deeply or more closely. And I think this is my thought. Our thought is just like an incomplete map, incomplete copy of reality. So if we think this thinking, my think is always right, this thinking is reality itself, we usually do, then we are deluded. We miss the reality beyond thinking. But our map is, as I said yesterday, our map is always incomplete because the reality has three dimensions, but our map has only two dimensions.
[76:52]
So whatever way we make map or atlas, something is distorted. And the center of the map is usually ourselves. And so the places, part of the map near the center is relatively correct or accurate, but the edges of the world is distorted, like Greenland is bigger than United States in certain map, or something we like seems bigger than it is, and something we hate also looks much bigger than as it is. and something we are not care or we are not interested in seems much smaller than it is.
[77:54]
So the way we see the world or things is not exact scenery of the reality, but somehow our world is distorted. So the most important thing for me to see is our map is distorted. Then we are free from our map. And our Zazen is not a method to correct the distortion of our map. But our zazen is, how can I say, praise or put our entire body on the earth, not on the map, on the ground of reality. But usually we put our life on the map. That is our thinking.
[78:56]
So our way of practice, our zazen practice is not collection of maps. And also our practice is not throw the map away. We sit with this map, distorted map. So all different kind of thought come up. That is our result of our karma. but when we see this map is not complete, perfect, then we have a kind of a liberation from our own system of value or our own opinion. This little liberation is, I think, makes our way of life different. changed. I think this is very important point. So our doesn't, as I said, is good for nothing, which doesn't make our map more accurate.
[80:07]
Map is still still distorted. Like, you know, Dogen said, you know, we are even though we are in the on the ocean bottom, still we are frog. And we have to practice with, you know, this frog that is karmic, limited. But in our Zazen, you know, we put our entire beings not in the well but in the ocean. And I think that is the way we are liberated from our karmic consciousness. not only that, but we use this karmic consciousness or a distorted map for the sake of the Dharma, for the sake of this entire interpenetrated reality of life.
[81:14]
I think that is I think the point of our practice. And that is what Dogen wanted to teach. But, you know, probably many of his students think Zen is a certain method to stop thinking or to... So this is a kind of an extreme. because another extreme is grasping our thought, our opinion, our understanding. And this is another extreme that we have to give up any thought, any opinion, anything. But Dogen wants to show the middle path between those two. And That is the point. And that is what he's saying, as you said. They do not know that thought is words.
[82:17]
Thought is words. Thought is, in this case, thinking. Or discrimination is words. So words came from our discrimination, our thoughts, our distorted map. But, he said, they do not know that words are liberated from thought. Words are liberated from thought. I think this is very wonderful teaching. Even though words came from thought, but words are liberated from thought. How can we speak or express or write any word which is liberated from thought. You know, this is really important thing. Then our words can be expression of Dharma, not expression this person's karmic consciousness or desire.
[83:29]
Anyway, that is the fact I have to say. Please. unusual use of words. Yes. Yes. So his word is very free from even the grammar, even the logic. He is free from grammar or logic. That's why his writing is so difficult, full of paradox and contradiction, and which makes us suffer. And that is a good practice for us to be free from our thoughts.
[84:39]
Let me read one last sentence of this section because I'd like to start this afternoon from the next section. We should realize that this teaching of the East Mountain moving over the water is a very bones and marrow of the Buddhas and ancestors. This is very important. All the waters are appearing at the foot of the east mountain, and therefore the mountains mount the clouds and stride through the heavens. The mountains are the peaks of the waters, and in both ascending and descending, their walk is over the water. The tips of the mountain's feet walk across the waters, setting them dancing. Therefore, their walking is seven high and eight across, and their practice and verification are not non-existent.
[85:50]
The expression, seven high and eight across, means free, very freely. So his usage of words is very free, and his way of life is also liberated from his own understanding. But still he's writing in this way, these kind of hash words. But in this comment, Fatih's waters is not clear. I think in the next section, he discussed about the water. That's why he didn't explain Fatih's water here. OK, please. I just wanted to say that you have words without thought. appropriate response.
[87:04]
How could Hyunman himself be liberated from the skin, flesh, bones, and marrow of the East Mountain and its life, precious earth, ocean? Oh, this sentence is kind of difficult to understand. I mean, it sounds like, on the surface, it sounds like Dogen is criticizing Unmon. She's saying unmo is not liberated from this walk of skin, flesh, bone, and marrow of this walking. But I don't think this is a criticism. But not liberated here, I think, means Unmon is really walking with the east mountain. But some scholars or commentators had a doubt about this sentence, and this should not be unmon, but this should be people, not unmon.
[88:24]
Okay, thank you very much.
[88:29]
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