Today is the truth of the dispatcher's words. Yeah. This morning I want to talk a little bit about how teachers and students relate to each other. There's a word I was discussing with somebody recently, this morning, called Sindaba, Sindaba, which in Buddhism is used

[01:22]

There's an illustration sometimes of the Sanskrit word, I think, sandava. It's Japanese. They say sandava. And it has four meanings. One word with four meanings. Dogen explains it as when Shakyamuni Buddha was speaking about it, he said that the word sandava has four meanings. It means salt, a chalice, water, and a horse. And when a king requests sandaba, his attendant has to know what he means.

[02:34]

So if he's thirsty, or if he's hungry, he'll say, sandaba. I want some sandaba. And his attendant will get him some salt. And if he's thirsty, he'll say, sandaba. and his attendant will get him a glass of water. And if he wants a bath, he'll say, Sendava, and his attendant will get him some water to wash with, water in a washcloth. And if he wants to go out, he'll say, Sendava, and his attendant will get him a horse But he doesn't have to explain what he wants. He just says, Sandava. This kind of understanding, way of understanding, is used to illustrate the closeness of a student and a teacher when they're really in accord, when the student's mind

[03:53]

is in accord with the teacher's mind. They have this kind of mutual response. The teacher says, Sandaba, and the student responds immediately to the request. It's metaphorical, you know. The teacher isn't always asking for something. He's not treating the student like a slave. And not in the same way that a monarch or a king treats a servant. But the example is to illustrate the oneness of the teacher and the disciples' understanding when body and mind is completely dropped, as Dogen says, completely dropped.

[05:16]

There's a story that he tells, Suzuki Roshi told the story, It's in the Shobo Genzo. It illustrates this pretty well. I like the story. I've told it before, actually. It's a story of Isan and Kyosan and Kyogen. Isan was the teacher, and Kyosan and Kyogen were his students. The Ikyo school of Zen is the combination of Isan's name and Kyo-san's name. And the people, the student, that was one of the five schools of Zen in China, the Ikyo school. Isan and Kyo-san together, the student and the disciple.

[06:24]

share the teaching of that school. And Kyogen was another student of Issan. Very famous Zen masters, all three. One day Issan was in his room sleeping. maybe in the afternoon when it was warm. In most countries, most hot countries or hot places in the world, when it gets warm or it's very warm, people sleep, take a snooze in the afternoon, siesta. That's probably what he was doing, taking an afternoon nap. And Kyo-san is a student. came by and opened the door and saw that he was sleeping.

[07:28]

But he was just kind of half asleep. Kyosan saw that he was sleeping. He went out of the room and closed the door. But just before he closed the door, Isan said, oh, don't be so formal. Just why don't you come on in? You don't have to worry about sleeping. I'm not really asleep. I'm just kind of resting. Come on in." And so, Kyosan went in, and Isan said, I was having this kind of daydream. What do you think it was? And Kyosan bowed to him and went downstairs into the bathroom and got it. pitcher of water and a towel. And he brought it up to Issan. And Issan washed his face.

[08:32]

He said, that was really wonderful and refreshing. Thank you. And about that time, his disciple Kyogen was walking by and he looked in on them. And Issan said, oh, come on in. And he said, Issan, just brought me this wonderful pan of water and a towel to wash my face with. And Kyogen went downstairs immediately and brewed some hot water and tea and brought it up with three teacups. And he said, since Kyosan already brought you a towel and water, I made some tea.

[09:36]

And so they all sat down and drank tea. That's the end of the story. But it's the same story, you know. his son, Sandaba, just like Sandaba, to know what... for the student to know what the teacher wants of him, actually. Not so much in gifts, but what is expected? What does the teacher want of me? What is it that I'm supposed to do? How am I supposed to respond? This should always be in the student's mind. How am I supposed to respond? What am I supposed to do? The teacher says what you should do sometimes. Sometimes the teacher will say, you should do this and you should do that.

[10:46]

But a teacher is not necessarily a kind of dictatorial person. And the different teachers have different styles of teaching. Some teachers are like a great, what we call a high wall, you know, and there's no way to ascend that wall, it's like a sheer cliff, and you're always trying to break into the teacher's mind, to find a way into the teacher's mind, And other teachers are very open and friendly and seem like your pal. Those are kind of two extremes. Then there are all the degrees in between. And so you can't say that all teachers are the same. But there are certain characteristics that all teachers share in common. And usually a good teacher will

[11:51]

stimulate a student to seek. The point is to seek, to find out what you're supposed to do. So Suzuki Roshi's way of teaching was to let you, help you to come to him to find out what to do. his way was mostly to suggest or to hint. You know, if he would say, sometimes he would say, oh, I think, he'd say something in a very casual way about what we might, what could be done in some circumstance. without saying anything more about it. And if you were aware, you'd say, this is what I'm supposed to do.

[12:57]

If you're not aware, you think, oh, he's just thinking about that. So his way of saying something or giving instruction, very subtle, very, very subtle. He never told you what to do directly. But he always told you what to do in some way, that you had to be alert enough to pick it up. And if you weren't alert enough to pick it up, then you just pass your time in some way, and they finally go away. This is a way of a teacher, the way a teacher chooses students, actually. There are some teachers who will only take the best students, And there are other teachers who will just accept everybody. But when it comes down to it, the teacher is really accepting just the best students, no matter whether they have a million students or just one.

[14:05]

And you may spend your whole life with a teacher and never understand what he was doing. That's possible. to spend your whole life with a teacher without ever understanding what he was doing, or what your relationship to him is. And... It's kind of, you know, it's not even... It doesn't even have to be anything very formal in a relationship. But the teacher knows right away when a student is picking up on the suggestions.

[15:15]

And those people, those students who don't pick up on the suggestions, they either stay around for a long time and wonder what's going on, or else they leave. And a teacher usually has, sometimes has no students. It's true. No real students. A teacher can have 50 people around, or 100 people, or 200 people, and not have any students. Some teachers have lots of students. Some teachers are practiced very closely with their students, and other teachers are very aloof from their students. Hardly ever see them, actually. Some teachers have a lot of attendants.

[16:25]

When you're very close to a teacher as an attendant, say, as in our particular tradition, as Jisha or Anja, those are two positions where student is very close to the teacher. Anja, it makes the teacher's bed. washes the dishes, makes food for the teacher, and takes care of, keeps the house clean, and takes care of all the mundane affairs, kind of the way a housewife would. It must, you know, if the teacher is married, then there's maybe some conflict between the teacher's wife and the anja. But to kind of share that, the teacher, the anja takes care of the teacher's affairs like that when he's in the monastery and the wife isn't around.

[17:31]

But the anja gets very close to the teacher and has a very good opportunity to understand the teacher's mind. The jīṣa is usually an older or a more intimate student who is very close to the teacher. And they understand each other pretty well. But the jīṣa takes care of the teacher's more personal affairs, writing letters or helping the teacher to interact, maybe as a go-between between the teacher and other students, and setting up a timetable for the teacher, setting up his appointments, and more of a confidant of the teacher.

[18:43]

But in both cases, both of those two people have to understand, they're practicing with the idea of sandabha, understanding. When the teacher says sandabha, they have to know whether he means salt, a glass of water, or a washbasin or a horse. And so they become very intimate with the teacher's mind. When I say the teacher's mind, you know, the teacher can have a lot of idiosyncrasies. The teacher can be not so intelligent, you know, or not so good at doing things, but should have the understanding, right understanding. The teacher can be a kind of schmuck, you know.

[19:52]

But the thing that makes the teacher the teacher is that he or she has the right understanding. Dogen says, when you meet a teacher, don't worry too much or criticize his or her shortcomings, but just get the dharma from that teacher. So when we say, understand the teacher's mind, we're talking about the teacher's dharma mind. Sometimes, if you're a good student, you have to use the teacher's mistakes and shortcomings to help you. you may go around forever looking for the perfect teacher. You may see a teacher and you say, this teacher has a lot of shortcomings, I'm going to go find another teacher.

[21:00]

And if you go to the other teacher, pretty soon you say, ah, you say, that teacher has shortcomings too. So you say, well, I'll go find another teacher. And you find someone that you read what they have to say in the books, Or to hear somebody say, that's a great teacher. And you go study with that teacher and pretty soon you begin to see his flaws and you say, that teacher has a lot of shortcomings, a lot of flaws. And so you can do this continuously. But at some point you have to stop and just practice with somebody. you have to accept the teacher's shortcomings and flaws if you want to practice with them. In the same way, you know, as the teacher accepts all of the student's shortcomings and flaws, we expect the teacher to be something wonderful, perfect, but...

[22:03]

In this imperfect world, there's nothing perfect. On the other hand, in this perfect world, there's nothing that's not perfect. If we can understand in this way, we don't have that problem. But the teacher should at least be able to communicate dharma. So we have every teacher is really different and has a whole different way of being and teaching and communicating. So what we're really talking about here is communication. Communication is uppermost. So how to find out what to do is really up to the student.

[23:38]

It's kind of like when the salmon go to spawn. They go up the river. As they go up the river, they have many difficulties. And the river gets narrower and narrower, and there's less and less water. And as they go up the river, they have to jump, you know, to these high places, to the high kind of big rocks and cliffs in order to continue up the river. And it takes all their energy to do it. And as they continue up, their energy gets more and more concentrated. And their path gets narrower and narrower. And their goal becomes more and more uppermost.

[24:43]

Until their whole activity, the activity of the samadhi is just completely one body and mind. and circumstances and surroundings, all one thing. This is very close to student and the way a student practices. And the river there is kind of like the teacher. And the student is like the salmon. And as the student becomes more and more concentrated in the way, the teacher can give the student more and more obstacles. And the student becomes more and more spirited and strong and determined and enlightened. Enlightenment is right there in the midst of that.

[25:49]

practice. So salmon's path, you know, is an enlightened path from beginning to end. You can't say that when the salmon spawns, that's the point of enlightenment. But the salmon's enlightened activity is from one end to the other, the river. In each circumstance, on each moment's circumstance, The salmon shows the salmon's enlightenment. In every turn of the river, the salmon... brings out... shows forth his enlightenment. Her enlightenment, actually. Salmon are female, so... But the salmon has to have this great request.

[26:58]

Suzuki Roshi called it our inmost request. What is our inmost request? It's the same as in Buddhism, we talk about the thought of enlightenment, arousing the supreme thought So what the teacher wants to do, you know, is to practice with the students in the realm of enlightened mind. That's what he really wants to do. He wants to practice with the students in enlightenment. And the students and the teacher practice enlightenment together.

[28:04]

practice. The student makes the teacher, and the teacher makes the students. And so the student... I mean, the teacher is... responds to the student, and the student responds to the teacher, and the teacher responds to the student, and the student responds to the teacher. And in this response, constant response, we call that communication. Until finally there's no communication. No more communication. Because there's nothing to communicate. Because there's no difference. No difference in the understanding of the teacher, no difference in the understanding of the student. So, when that understanding is perfect, we don't have to call it communication.

[29:19]

It's just one mind. But even though there's one mind, the student is the student, and the teacher is the teacher. two completely different people. They don't look alike and they don't act alike. Sometimes they do, but the student should go beyond the teacher. This is how Zen Buddhism stays alive, is that the teacher and the student goes beyond the teacher, develops beyond the teacher. So when the student develops beyond the teacher, then the teacher says, well, you go away. Go out there.

[30:22]

You're now independent from me. So it's very important, you know, to have communication, and to figure out how to do that. The student has to figure out how to do that. The teacher may not even be available. Sometimes we say the teacher is available, but sometimes not, you know. Sometimes a student will come to a teacher, but the teacher will ignore him or her. And the teacher has to fight, do something, to wake up the teacher, or to make the teacher respond.

[31:38]

We're usually very polite and nice, you know, and we invite people into, how do you do, and so forth. That's okay. There are different ways. But basically, it's really up to the student to want something. And if the student just keeps ignoring the teacher, or ignoring their relationship, then the teacher has better things to do, and to worry about them. But the teacher always worries about students anyway. And sometimes the teacher will go out and say, look, you should be doing this and that. Some students will respond very quickly when you say something.

[32:41]

And some students, you have to beat them with a flowerpot before they'll get the point. But you don't like to beat people with flowerpots. You like to sit back and have fun. But you should look at what kind of person you are. What kind of person am I? What do I do? How do I do it? That's why it's nice, you know, to have a small sangha. where the teacher is accessible to students. Most sanghas grow very big at some point and the teacher is not so available to the students.

[33:43]

But when you have a small sangha, you can have a more intimate relationship with the teacher. That was always the ideal. in China and Japan, just to have a small sangha. Where you can practice closely, people can practice closely together and have an intimate relationship. But not just relationship with the teacher and sitting zazen is the basis of practice. Those two things. Sitting Zazen and having an intimate relationship with the teacher. And bringing questions and listening to lecture.

[34:52]

And listening to a lecture and getting some question in your mind from that, thinking that over, and bringing that to the teacher. Very important. But the relationship between student and teacher is just one aspect. Then there are the relationships between the students and the students. And that also is a little bit different, because the students don't relate to each other as teachers and students. They relate to each other as students. Although, the way students relate to each other as teacher and student is that the students that have good understanding

[36:00]

help the other students in a way that's not teacher-like. But if the older students understand the teacher's mind, then they can communicate that to other students through their actions, and should do that. through their actions. So, in some sense, what you do is just what you do for yourself, you know, by yourself. You're independent, and what you do is just what you do. But what you do also affects everybody else that's around you. And if you don't know that, if you don't take that into consideration, you're not really a student. You don't have the mind of a student. If you don't realize that whatever you do affects everyone around you.

[37:02]

So how we practice in our daily life is by taking into account the fact that what we do affects everything around us and everybody around us in some way. And if you know how to do that, every situation that you're in becomes a way to practice. And so you don't really have to be with your teacher all the time. You can freely come and go with your teacher if you understand how to practice. And you know that if you're sick at home, Dealing with that is your practice and dealing with everyone around you and the circumstances around you.

[38:08]

Within that situation is how you practice. And then everything you practice with, everything around you, all the circumstances and people around you become your teachers. So in one sense, you can say, well, my teacher is over here, Nizendo. But actually, everything is your teacher. All circumstances. If you really understand that, then you know what your teacher is, or who your teacher is. A teacher actually is also different than guru. Guru actually means teacher, but we don't use that word in the sense that it's usually used.

[39:11]

It is the Indian Sanskrit word meaning teacher. Although we always respect our teacher as Buddha. So when we bow to our teacher, We bow to Buddha. But in the same way, we respect everybody else as Buddha. And so we bow to everybody else. And we respect the pillar, the temple pillar as Buddha. So we can bow to the pillar, and we can bow to our cushion, and we can bow to our dinner, and our breakfast, and the toilet. So, you know, when the jīṣa and the ānjā take care of the teacher, they take care of the teacher by trying to understand the teacher's mind, and that way they forget themselves.

[40:32]

If you try to understand something, when you're really absorbed in trying to understand something, you can forget yourself. And this is a wonderful kind of practice. And the teacher needs to know how to respond to the jīsā and the ānjā, so that the teacher doesn't become a guru to the jīsā and the ānjā, doesn't want to be worshipped by those people. Sometimes it gets... teacher may take advantage of people and take advantage of their devotion to make a kind of worship out of it. So teachers should always avoid that kind of attitude.

[41:40]

Actually, what the teacher is trying to do is make the student independent. Not to make the student dependent, but to make the student independent. When the student is independent, then the student can be halfway around the world, and the student and the teacher are still together. still have communication. No matter what, the two of them may be doing completely different things, and yet they're always practicing together. And this is how we practice, too. We're always out in the world, mostly separately, but we're always practicing together. we should understand that we're always practicing together even though we're doing completely different things in completely different places.

[42:47]

Getting kind of windy. Do you have a question? You said the teacher makes the student and the student makes the teacher. What is the teacher's attitude if he has 50 students but no students? Well, he just goes about his business. You know, the teacher is open for business. But sometimes the teacher has something on the shelf. You know, sometimes the teacher doesn't. That's a, you know, and sometimes the students have some money and sometimes they don't. You have to know which is which. But the teacher doesn't rate himself in any way?

[43:57]

By the number of students? No. And even if he has no students? Right. Teacher, that's one thing. A teacher never is rated by the number of students they have. That's very important. Very good teachers. Like, Zhou Xu never had any students. No lineage after him. He was just about the most famous Zen master in China. But everybody is Zhou Xu's student. All Zen students are Zhou Xu's students. But he didn't have any direct disciples. A teacher actually shouldn't go out and try to get disciple. I mean, that's not such a good idea. People should, you know, somebody passes by and they start a conversation with somebody and, geez, you know, I'd like to stick around you for a while. Because they recognize something.

[44:57]

That's a good way for a teacher to get a student. It's like, You know, people can come to a Zen center and they sit Zazen, but they don't immediately relate to the teacher. First they come to Zazen, they sit Zazen for a while, and they like the Sangha and so forth, and maybe they like the teacher, and at some point they decide, well, you don't even decide, I want to be somebody's teacher or student. You just find that that's what you're doing. That's usual. I never asked Suzuki Roshi, can I be your disciple? He just understood. We were practicing together. We became just very close. We say, you know, Dogen says students should be like milk and water.

[46:02]

Just mixing that. No opposition. They just mix. They just blend. And when you act like a student, you're a student. If you don't act like a student, you're not. And that's really... You don't have to ask any questions. You can say, I want to be your student. One thing I've noticed about myself not uncommon is a real tendency to judge my own practice, compare it to other students' practice, or compare it to my own practice at some other point. And there's sort of this feeling of wanting to have teacher's approval, feeling like there's some kind of expectation from a teacher. And when I judge myself as not meeting up to whatever

[47:08]

imagine the standards are. The feeling of not wanting to admit that that's the state of my practice. My practice feels very flaky. I don't want to come up to you and say, well, my practice is really flaky these days. This is just sort of a harsh, harsh judgmental quality of my own practice. Well, saying that, you know, is a kind of ... you get a picture of where you are, you know, it's good to know where you are. But if you say that, sometimes it means ... it's kind of like reverse ego, or negative ego, you know. It's like saying, you know, I'm really bad, you know, I know I'm bad. And that kind of ... it looks like I'm giving up my ego because I'm saying that I'm bad, but it's really ... holding on to ego, because you know the teacher's going to say, oh, I know you're bad, you know.

[48:13]

Thanks for telling me. You're really good because you're telling me you're bad. Well, I'm afraid the teacher's going to say, try harder. But actually, the teacher will say, I understand. I'm glad that you told me. I'm glad that... Actually, that's what the teacher would say. But... It's a kind of double bind. I remember one time saying something similar to that to you and you agreed. You never can expect the same answer twice. A while ago I talked about understanding between student and teacher, and I was thinking of different exchanges over a period of time that we've had.

[49:19]

Often what happens is that I get it long after the arrow, or I think I get it, or I think, oh, that's what was happening long after the arrow has passed Korea. And so I think, oh yeah, that's probably what was happening. But there's rarely, you know, then it's a year later. That's OK. That's great. But then I wonder, though, if there might be, you know, if you go back and say, hey, I got that. Or I think I got that, what you said in 1977. You said it. Yeah. That's very good. Boy, that's real success. That makes me feel very guilty. You can come back and fix it. I don't know how I got it. Do you remember 1976 or anything like that? Yeah, okay.

[50:29]

Go ahead. I've been reading Draculas and Zim at the park where the students come to the teacher a lot during the sheeting and questions. And it provokes a thing about teachers that's a problem for me about being the kind of student who's always asking for answers. And what's helpful that you said is the thing about situations being our teacher, because I think that that very situation is my teacher. You know, where is the real question? to come to talk about, rather than... Because I think it is about finding deeply our own way. And the thing about a guru is giving up finding your own way and adopting them as director. But I think that the problem I have is one of not coming to talk because I think I have to get the real question.

[51:33]

And I think that it's important to have the relationship and the... and the talk. Right. It's good to have the relationship whether you have the question or not. But there's something about coming and having the relationship that it's easy to get into asking for answers in a way that's not good. Well, that's okay as long as the teacher doesn't cater to that. You know. Teacher doesn't give you answers. That's not what a teacher's function is. A teacher's function is to help you to continue your practice and to help you to deepen your questioning. Because the answer has to come from you. So your question has to be, you know, sometimes a teacher can help you to

[52:35]

open up your questioning in a broader way, a sharper way or something. So, if you think one thing or another, that's not so good. The thing is to have the relationship without thinking. You know, koan is not something that you think about, that you think you're going to answer. in the usual way. So, when you come to talk to your teacher, it always has the sense of koan, which means that it just keeps driving you more and more. It's like the salmon going up the river. It's another spur, you know, to get you directed and to keep you going and to be more concentrated and more closely closer to what you want to do.

[54:03]

You don't come ask questions to get answers. You shouldn't expect answers. It's like discussion. It's called discussion. You look at this thing, actually. And this thing is you and this thing is the teacher. But it's like looking at something, you know. What we are always so concerned about is ourself. When you bring a question, you look at the question. And sometimes the teacher will turn the question to you. because it can show you how the question really is you, but not in the same way that you usually think about yourself. You know, the monks in India, in early Buddhism, gave up everything, you know, so they really didn't have very many personal problems. So that's why Dogen says, he's so adamant,

[55:04]

You know, finally he says, the only way is to really be alone. You always say, oh, shucks, but you can be a lay person. He's so insistent, in his later life he really insisted on that. He said, the only way to practice is really to be alone because you've given up all of your personal desires and you don't have any personal problems anymore. You know, your personal problems are really at a minimum. You're not spending your time agonizing and suffering over your personal problems. And householders have all these personal problems, which are, you know, come from desire and so forth. So he finally, he says, you know, I can't deal with this, with this householder practice, you know, because no matter how much you do it, how much you deal with it, there's all these millions of personal problems and people are always dwelling on them and they can never really dwell on the Dharma. And the way to really practice is to not pay so much attention to personal problems.

[56:12]

To not get so caught up in personal problems. And when we discuss dharma, you know, it takes us out of the realm of personal problems. And we can... And our life becomes more... The more you do that, the more your life becomes easy and free, and the more freedom you have. Because you're not always dwelling on personal problems. But it has to be the same with everybody. Even though we live in the world and have families and houses and jobs and so forth, within that realm we have to be free of our personal problems to a great extent. Otherwise we're just You know, we're worried about our psychology. We create terrible psychological problems for ourselves.

[57:15]

And we have to see psychologists and psychologists. This is all personal problems. So Buddhism is designed, you know, to get us out of that kind of mire of personal problems. and get us on a level of dharma. It doesn't mean we don't have personal problems, but it's not the big obsession that it is with people that have nothing else. So, that's really the purpose of our studying dharma. Stop our suffering. Get out of our personal problems. Stop creating so many personal problems. If we love it, if we like it, then stay there. But if you don't like it so much, if you really want some freedom, then we have to get out of it.

[58:19]

And that's why we study. That's why we practice. This is an ongoing subject, so we'll continue.

[58:34]

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