Last Saturday I talked about some of the differences between Zen practice in America and traditional Zen practice in Japan, and talked about food and families, and women, and procedures, things like that. And today I want to talk about Just practice in general. I touched on it last time, but I want to talk more about it.

[01:08]

Just how we practice, which is different in some sense. I've talked about this before a lot, but without making so much distinction between priests or monks and laypeople, a priest is a kind of administrator, actually. A monk is more like someone who is just practicing, just engaging in the practice. And usually we give the title monk to someone who is ordained, ordained person.

[02:14]

And in America, you know, we don't have so much, it's hard to define exactly what is a priest and what is a monk, because the ordained monks we usually take on the role of priests. Whereas in, say, in Japan, there'd be a lot of monks, but not so many priests, and then a lot of lay people. So the roles of priest, monk, and lay people have very different connotations in America than they do in Japan. So we consider anybody a monk who is just practicing, whether they're ordained or not. We just call everybody a monk if they're really practicing. You know, I'll explain it this way.

[03:18]

In a way that we... There are different degrees of participation in practice within your own mind and within your own activity. And Pekar Roshi gave an interesting explanation the other day. He said, there are people who come and sit zazen And Zazen plays an important part in their life. And they enjoy that part of their life, which is Zazen. But the enjoyment of their life, which is not just sitting, comes from some other source.

[04:25]

from some other place. Whereas someone who you would consider having monks practice, the enjoyment of their life comes from practicing with the Sangha and developing Buddhism in America. So those are the people who you would consider a monk, whether they happen to be ordained or not is not so much the point. But that's the kind of monk, someone whose enjoyment is in practicing Buddhism and promoting it and helping others to practice. And then laypeople are people who are not ordained and not so interested in Buddhism or in promoting practice or helping people to practice but get some benefit from sitting zazen So these are kind of three categories.

[05:32]

And there's also... that also ties in to the types of Zen practice. Types of Zen. There are lots of types of Zen. But I just want to talk about two. One type, one kind of Zen is natural Zen. And the other kind of Zen is Buddhist Zen. And natural Zen, kind of like beat Zen. Beat Zen is a kind of natural Zen. and square Zen. Remember Alan Watts? He wrote this book called Beat Zen and Square Zen. It's a little pamphlet. Square Zen is more traditional and Buddhist Zen.

[06:37]

And natural Zen is, of course, the Zen which we all have. probably what we're interested in when we begin to practice is the natural Zen. And when we actually start practicing, we come up against Buddhist Zen. And we say, oh, who needs that? You know, I want the real thing. I want just the natural Zen, which is, I want I want the real salami, but I don't want to have to pay the butcher for it. But we get caught into Buddhist Zen, because no matter how much we try to develop our own Zen by ourself, we need the Sangha, we need the Buddha, and we need the Dharma.

[07:48]

And it's very rare that someone can practice by themselves and actually develop their inherent Buddha nature. So, if we continue to practice at all, then we get mixed up with Buddhist Zen. We need the tradition, and we need the Dharma, and we need someone to teach us. But the natural Zen is the basis of it all. If we didn't have it to begin with, we couldn't study it. If we didn't have it, we wouldn't know what it is. So natural Zen is like our unpolished stone.

[08:53]

It's like an unpolished diamond. And each one of us is like a diamond in the rough. But in order to bring out the qualities of that diamond, we polish it with practice. So it's called Buddhism. So there's natural Zen and Buddhist Zen, and what we like is our natural Zen. But what we have to work with is Buddhist Zen. And when we discover the qualities of our natural Zen through Buddhist Zen we've come to appreciate Buddhism and the practice and then our enlightenment becomes much more mature and we realize why we have Buddhist Zen and why it's important to practice.

[10:18]

So These are all various factors that we're always working with. Natural Zen, Buddhist Zen, layperson, monk and priest, they're all connected. All parts of how we approach our practice. And there's room, of course, for everybody within practice. There's room for all of these views. But what we appreciate most is monks' Zen and priests' Zen. But they don't, the categories,

[11:19]

lay person and priest, we're not so much concerned with. What we're really concerned with is how we actually practice, aside from the categories, what we're actually doing. That's the important thing. And it's important at some point, you know, to fall in love with practice, to love our practice. And when we love practice, then even though we have various problems within practice, we don't have a problem. We don't have some big problem. And love is like, I think I talked about this last time, a certain kind of attraction.

[12:29]

And beginner's practice is a kind of love affair. And we have a lot of enthusiasm. and a lot of attraction. And when we discover something about, when we first enter practice and it brings something out in us, something startling or something that we haven't experienced before, you know, usually when we begin to practice, if we continue, we have a kind of Kensho experience They talk about Kensho a lot in Rinzai practice, but in Soto practice we don't talk so much about Kensho, or a kind of enlightening, intuitive understanding, experience. I think that we all have that when we begin to practice. We may not recognize it, but we all discover something.

[13:36]

Otherwise we wouldn't continue to practice. there wouldn't be anything keeping us within practice if we didn't have some revelation. And that's kind of like what you have when you have a love affair. When you meet with somebody, you have this wonderful kind of opening up. But then, in order to keep it going, you have to develop your relationship. The relationship doesn't sustain itself on that first kind of revelation. Unless you develop the relationship through various kinds of circumstances, it just kind of atrophies and falls away. And then you fall out of love and then you look for someone else to fall in love with.

[14:38]

So we're always looking for someone else to fall in love with. Because we like that momentary flash, you know, but we don't like to develop something. It's very hard to develop something, actually. Hard to keep developing something. Because if you do, if you continue to develop something, then you have to deal with hate as well as love, you know, and you have to deal with The fact that when you thought the person was good-looking, and then when you look at them again, you know, they're different angles, their nose is a little bit crooked, you know, they have a wart on their elbow, which you overlooked in the beginning. So we have, you know, in a love affair, you really have to get down to reality with your partner. you can't go on infatuation. And on the surface, you can't go... you can't continue with a surface relationship.

[15:41]

You have to get down to the bare bones, you know, and see your partner without any cover. So, the same applies to practice. So, we have to see... after we get the first infatuation, then practice becomes a kind of normal activity. And so we have to practice within a normalcy of practice, which is just sitting Zazen, getting up in the morning and sitting Zazen, or coming to Zazen in the evening, depending on what we can do. So our practice, well I'm getting ahead of myself, So love actually turns into various things.

[16:43]

It doesn't stay in that. Love continues, but it gets transformed. So we don't recognize it necessarily as love. It takes the form of cooperation, or compassion, or equanimity, patience, various qualities, and as a matter of fact, whatever the situation is, it's kind of like the glue that holds you together, that keeps you together with whatever's happening. And so it actually becomes deeper and deeper, but sometimes it's so deep that you don't even recognize what it is. It goes beyond your idea of what you thought it was.

[17:46]

So in that case, it means that you have to hang on to the relationship that you have, no matter what happens. Today, you know, people are divorced very easily because they have an infatuation, but they don't want to develop the love situation beyond their infatuation. So as soon as things get tough, they get divorced. It's getting more and more difficult to stay within that situation and find out the truth of it. So how we find out the truth of ourself is through some situation, and continuing with the situation through all of its aspects, through all of its changes. It's like if you go to the top of a mountain, if you're climbing a mountain,

[18:55]

you go to the top of the mountain no matter what happens, unless it's absolutely impossible. So that means you have to deal with every situation that comes up between the bottom of the mountain and the top of the mountain. And so when you get to the top of the mountain, you know, even though you don't have any more clothes left or all of your equipment's gone and you're all scratched up and beat up and frostbitten or whatever, you have the satisfaction of love. because you stayed with the situation to the end. So that's the kind of love that's necessary in order to continue to practice. And you can practice that with any situation, with a person that you're with,

[19:58]

with your work or with relationships in the world. It's called sincerity. So... This is a very important point in Japanese Zen.

[21:10]

The sincerity in making a decision and standing by a decision. When people first went to Japan to study with Zen masters in Japan, they didn't understand the Japanese attitude. And they thought, well, most people thought, well, I'll go to Japan and study for a little while, and then learn about Japan and come home. But that was from their point of view. But from the Japanese teacher's point of view, someone that comes to study, they just come to study. There's no after. There's no after study. there's just, you come and do it, okay, yes, okay, you can come and do it, but there's no, you go home afterward, or for a certain period of time. So they expected that people who wanted to come and practice Zen in the monasteries would just come and practice Zen, however long it took, all their life.

[22:23]

no partial commitments or time limits or something like that. And when the people wanted to go home after three years or five years, they thought, well, they're breaking their contract. They're not sincere. They're not really sincere students. So there was a lot of difficulty, a lot of misunderstanding, and a lot of difficulty. I think it's easier now. Japanese people are making some concession to Americans or Europeans by just letting them practice with them without making big commitments. But the practice, the teaching they get is not the same as the teaching they get when they have some commitment. So the truth of it is that practice is something that you do for your whole life.

[23:26]

That's what we call practice. And that's why our particular practice doesn't have any steps to it. Suzuki Roshi was very careful. to avoid step, what do you call it, step ladder practice where you have a certain starting place and then you get to place number two after you've been practicing for a while and then when you have another understanding you get to place three and on and on and up until you finally reach nirvana or enlightenment or something. He was very careful to avoid that kind of practice, because although he didn't demand so much from everybody, he made it very clear that practice was something that you did for your whole life, and was your whole life, no matter what your situation.

[24:41]

So what we appreciate is people who are really dedicated to practice, no matter what form it takes in their life. And you may have different things to do in your life. And you may have different... your life may take various turns, but for your whole life, you see that activity and you deal with that activity as practice in Buddhism. So what he was interested in was our sincerity and our love affair with Buddhism. So people, you know, who practice here very steadily and maintain the practice and encourage other people to practice and whose practice inspires other people and who really uphold

[26:39]

practice. These are the people that we call, I would call monks, just as a general term. I would call it monk's practice, kind of monk's practice. Because in Japan, the difference is quite extreme. Priests and monks are more monastic. And when you're in the monastery, you're a monk, unless you have some special position. And then when you go back home to your temple, you're a temple priest. And then people come to talk to the priest. And the priest takes care of the families and people who come to the temple.

[27:51]

But they don't sit zazen like we do. They don't practice exactly the way we do. Their practice, though, is very much part of their lives. I think that's true. But it's quite different to have people come and sit zazen, even occasionally, and it's quite different to have people come and sit zazen regularly as a practice. So people who do feel very good about. We have a lot of admiration for, actually, Americans, people who come and practice zazen regularly as part of their life. So what we consider a monk is someone who enjoys the practice,

[28:58]

and helps people to practice and gets their enjoyment from a sangha, from belonging to the sangha and studying the dharma and developing their buddha. So, So there are also two sides to our approach to practice.

[30:26]

One side is how we develop ourself. And the other side is how we help other people or what we do in the world to express our understanding. And so the one side is development, our own development. And that's, even though both sides overlap, even though both sides contain, one side contains the other. Zazen practice and training, within the zazen practice and learning something about the dharma, learning what is dharma, is the developmental side.

[31:30]

We develop ourselves and help other people to develop. And the other side is just helping people and doing something in the world that helps the world. And as I say, both sides contain the other. But it's very important to, at the same time as you're developing yourself, that you're doing something useful besides that in the world. So actually the koan kind of lies in this area.

[32:33]

Training and developing ourself is to learn the universal nature of things, of ourself and all things. And doing something in the world is taking on the particular tasks of life. So training is kind of like the negative side. And working in the world is more like the positive side. And both sides are necessary. So if It can be a big problem, you know, if we just want to develop ourself, just to train, sit Zazen all the time, just want to sit Zazen all the time, and study.

[33:36]

Actually, I would appreciate that very much, but... But if you just are stuck on that side, then you're neglecting the other side. which is how you take care of, interact with the world in a positive way. And if you're just stuck on that side, you know, you miss the real meat of practice, the real sense of practice. So, you know, mostly we're emphasizing this side of the negative side, because it's the side that you don't know anything about. It's the side that where it's hard to penetrate, hard to find. So we put a lot of emphasis on it.

[34:39]

Zazen, Sashin, interacting together within the Sangha. and studying. But the way it's proved, or the way it's carried out, is within activity in the world. So, if you're too heavy on one side, you need to do more with the other side. Now, I want to make sure that People who are very busy don't feel that I'm trying to get you to sit more zazen. I'm not saying that. We have people who have been practicing here for 15 years and whose lives are very outgoing.

[35:48]

and very busy, concerned with a lot of business or family or so forth, obligations. But, you know, over a long period of time those people have been very steady, practicing very, very steadily and very sincerely. And that kind of long time commitment to practice, you know, with all the problems that come in our life. And yet, you know, still always dependable and always knowing what they're doing. That kind of slow development is very encouraging, very It's like over a long, long period of time, there's been a kind of development which has occurred.

[36:55]

It's like someone says, walking in a fog. You don't know you're wet until you feel your clothes, and then your clothes are soaked. That's kind of characteristic of our practice. Without looking for some improvement, without looking for some visible sign, at some point you feel your clothes and they're wet. So Suzuki Roshi said, for Americans, I think that what you're, in America, I think what you're looking for is some real way of life that suits you, that suits America, that suits Americans.

[38:38]

Some real way of life that suits you, I mean is suitable to you. not suits your idea but it's suitable to you which you're looking for and he said that he thought that was very good that we're developing our own way but you should understand Dogon's way you should understand Buddha's way you should know and you should know Dogen's understanding, then you have something to develop with, you have some way of developing. So we continue to develop our way, what we call our own way,

[39:43]

But if we just develop our own way, that's kind of natural Zen. But we develop our own way practicing with Buddha, practicing with Dogon, practicing with Suzuki Roshi and all the patriarchs. That's Buddhist Zen. So we're connected, you know, with everybody from the past. It's kind of wonderful, you know, to know that we have this long connection of teaching and teachers that we actually love and who are giving us so much because they love us. That's, I think, something that we may not think about so much, but all of the teachers in our long lineage have dedicated themselves to us.

[41:10]

And the whole purpose of their life was to dedicate themselves to us. So, rather than ignoring their effort, we should look into it and see what it is they're offering. And do you have a question? Well, I'm very new to this, when you talk about different kinds of zin, because I'm a sacred tree, so I speak of Korean zin. Oh, yes. And I notice all the little differences in what people do during ceremonies. And so I'm more like, well, what's essential zin, as opposed to this sect and that sect and that sect. I think what you have to do is just choose someone to practice with and just do that and get used to doing that.

[42:17]

It doesn't matter, you know. People wear different clothes from different countries. The various practices come from Japan and Korea and China. So it's good to just put on the clothes, you know, put on the costume of your practice, wherever it comes from, and just practice in that way. And just appreciate the other practices. They're not really different. In essence, they're just different in form and style. And It's good to be able to not get hung up on it, on those differences. But wherever you go, just practice the way they practice there. If you go to Empty Gate, just practice everything just the way they do it there.

[43:17]

And if you come here, just practice everything the way we do it here. So you just fall into step with the people that you're with. If you say, but this can't be right, they do it the other way over there, then you have a big problem. So that always is a problem. When people go to another Zen center, when they've been practicing for a long time someplace, they say, oh, they do everything wrong. But that kind of judgment just comes from your dualistic mind. practice with one group, it's more comfortable. And you don't get so confused. And you have some... Then the people that you're practicing with can relate to you.

[44:32]

And you can relate to them. So, although it's good to appreciate the other practice places, other ways of practice, there's a certain kind of loyalty that you have when you practice in some place. I don't mean it's like, it's not like nationalism or chauvinism. There's a certain kind of loyalty that gives people that you practice with confidence about you and you have confidence about them and then you can do something. and then you can appreciate the various other practices, but you know what you're doing. You're settled in your own practice. About, you know, the right way to do it or the wrong way to do it, you know, I notice a lot of different things here than in San Francisco, particularly bowing.

[45:37]

Dying is different here? Well, I was told that you put your head on the mat three times. And I noticed you don't do that. I don't think people do that so much. Oh, I see. Just little details. I'm always trying to figure out exactly what is the right way to do it. Recently I realized that that takes up a gargantuan, a huge space in all the things. And it's like it seems to be, in a sense, it's a block. And I want to ask about that. always thinking my posture is not quite right yet, or I'm not bowing correctly. That's always, always there, and I just wanted to ask about that. Well, those are two different questions, and I want to answer them differently, separately. When we first started to bow with Suzuki Roshi, we'd lift our hands and touch our head three times every time we bowed. And then Tatsagami Roshi came along, Tassajara, and he said, no, just do it once.

[46:40]

And now they're doing it three times again over there. I think I may have said something about that. I mentioned it to them. And I think they started doing it. Somebody said, well, let's do that. So three times is a very formal vow. And one time is less formal. But we only do it once here. But you can do it three times if you want. But I'm talking about the feeling of always, that is a specific thing, but the feeling always as you're doing it is, I'm not doing this quite right. You should ask questions. Okay, I ask an awful lot of questions. Yeah, ask a lot of questions. And the other thing about your posture is, that's a different category because your posture is never right. So that's true, it's never right. It's always right, but there's no one moment that's going to stay right, because it's always changing. It's only right when you're watching that you're making it correct.

[47:46]

It's always right when you're paying attention to it, but otherwise it's not right. But the fish is right because he's moving. I think it might be good for people once in a while to see other people sitting. If you're carrying a stick, you see it. And the variety of shapes and sizes and amounts of quivering and leaning over and whatever is always, in a sense, very comforting. You say, am I doing that too? And obviously you are. But you know, there's a great sense of humanity and variety when you're walking around the Sunday with a pillow, period. Some people are very straight some days and other days unless there's something in their head. Some people are always falling asleep and some always wide awake. But they're all trying very hard. They're making great effort there. Okay, one more question. I really love what you say about posture never being right and it always being right if you're watching it.

[48:56]

what posture in your mind immediately is. Almost posture in mind. It's never right unless you're always trying to make it right. Yeah. There's no one posture that carries you through. Well, I was fascinated by the distinctions you were making with different kinds of norms. And I'm just a little confused about the lay monk, is it a matter of, are you suggesting that a lay monk could be defined in terms of commitment to to Buddhism and whether or not they might be ordained, you were saying. Yeah. Someone who is focused in life and whose center is in Buddhism. Yeah. Now, this is a totally, is it, what are you saying? This is totally my own category. Your own category, that's what I wanted to say.

[50:01]

Don't say anything. She said it. That's a pretty good program. Okay.

[50:17]

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