first cane it was filled with feathers and it was real, just the right, just the right I think I took it apart and put some stuffing in there, but it's not the same, you know. I don't know how it was done. The way it's croaked, it's a kind of macrame or something, the way this is put together.

[01:09]

And I had to sew it. You know, there's a little ball in there. The wood has got a ball inside. And then there should be that padding around it. And then this around the padding to keep it all taut and full. But it's not so full, so it doesn't make as nice a sound. It's a flatter sound. It's not as brilliant a sound because of that. It'd be nice if someone could someday do that, Philip, you know, who is talented at that kind of stuff. But no one ever has appeared. You can do that. So, unless we get another one, this is quite an unusual stick. I've never seen one quite like this before. So, as you notice, there's no sound down here, right? Because it's not hollow. It's only hollow up through here. So, there's a certain place where it sounds its most hollow.

[02:15]

right there at the apex before it starts to fall off. And there's a certain place on the stick now. See, that's not so good. Too flat. This is kind of dead. So you kind of turn it around until you find where it's got no more, no heavier. You have to listen for the sound. Listen for what the sound that you want to hear. Same when you're chanting, and same when you're hitting the bell. You think, I don't say you think, but most people feel that you hit the bell, or you hit this, or you chant, and there's no, you don't have much control over it. Mostly that's because you feel that you don't have a conception, or that your conception isn't valid. If you want to sing like an opera singer, you can do it.

[03:34]

You can sing like an opera singer, but you don't feel that you can. You don't have that conception that you can sing like an opera singer, but you can. Your voice can be real big and full and vibrant and loose. But since you don't have that conception, you don't think you can do it. But everyone in this room can do it. So the conception, what do I want it to sound like? Then you work toward what you want it to sound like. Well, I want it to sound like a heavy drop of water. So I don't know if you're doing it, just let it drop. I'm not hitting it. The problem that most of us have is we go... This.

[04:42]

So all you need to control with your hand is to control it, not to. So it doesn't fly out of your hand. You can go pretty fast. And so when we do use this, you can judge by what you hear. If you listen to everybody chanting, if you tune your ear to everybody chanting, then this naturally does the right thing. You will do naturally the right thing, because you're hearing this too. But if you don't hear this, I think a lot of fukudos don't hear this, and they don't hear everybody.

[05:47]

The other thing is pace of things. We've talked about how to chant the sutras, you know, fast or slow or so forth. And it's really not a matter of fast or slow so much. It's a matter of bite, a matter of really expressing each syllable. So we say, Avalokiteshvara. And when we get kind of in the middle of the sutra, we want to go, da, [...] Avalokiteshvara Bodhisattva. And we chop off the words. We don't let each word really have its complete dharma position. We don't let each word stand out. And that should be the key to how we're doing it. You know, if you say fast or slow, there's nothing to measure that with.

[07:06]

So the measure is how we're digesting the syllables. So it's not a matter of fast or slow. I said that Avalokiteshvara has seven syllables. And the first three or four is setting the pace. getting everybody together. And then you can start moving out from in the middle of that. Avalokiteshvara Bodhisattva, when practicing deeply the Prajnaparamita. It doesn't have to go any faster than that. When practicing deeply the Prajnaparamita, perceive the five skandhas in slow down, ever. So even if you're going real fast like this, and you feel that's too fast, just hold it.

[08:11]

Just don't go any faster. But you can't go slower. No matter how fast it's going, you can't go slower. So if you're looking at me, and I say, that means hold it there. It doesn't mean slow down. It means just hold it there. Don't go any faster. You know, the trouble I have, I think, is misreading your signals. It seemed to me until a few, maybe a month or two ago, that you were always saying, speed up. But I think maybe what you were, I think maybe you were saying something else. This means, don't go any faster. I have two signals. No, I never see that. You see this one? Yeah, right. You know, it means, pick it up a little bit. But that doesn't necessarily mean speed up. No. That means, that's what I was... Right, it means, take the lethargy out of it. Sometimes, there are some people who are always behind the beat. They do a steady beat, but they're always a little bit behind. You know, it's da, [...] da.

[09:13]

And so, even though it's steady, it's, you know, you feel it. Get right on it, you know? You feel what? Get up! So, when that happens, sometimes, as much as they speed up, it's never enough. It's interesting. There's another problem in that state, when you fall out with what the chanting is, with the rhythm. Say, everybody else is slowing down, and yet you're maintaining a steady beat. Then what do you do? Well, you know, it's different in each situation. You have to kind of, I don't know, it's hard. The thing is not to fall out. It's hard, it's hard to patch things up. Yeah, I think my question is, you know, who sets the pace? Well, okay, that's a good question. Everybody sets the pace. There's a feeling of the chanters, that should set the pace. But, it's all got to be tied together with the Fukuda.

[10:17]

The Fukudo goes with the people that are chanting, and the chanters go with the Fukudo. They all go together. And then it all becomes obvious what to do. When it's working well, that's what happens. It's not that anybody's leading. No special person's leading. Everybody's just doing the same thing. So it's a mistake to think that the Fukudo is supposed to lead. You do. You get it together and everybody listens to that. But what you're doing as Fukuda is listening to them. So it's reciprocal. I think that's our problem. Yeah, that is our problem. Well, what happened this morning with Dahi Shindirani? What were you trying to say? What was going on? Dahi Shindirani was, see, the chanting got so low It kept getting descending, you know.

[11:22]

Started out here and it just went... You have to speed it up and just get it through it, just get it over with. That's what I was saying. What I saw happening was, when I speeded up, no one was with me. And then he said, speed up more. So I speeded up more and still no one was with me. So finally, I was racing through it so fast that people couldn't get the syllables out and no one was with me. And it just... You know, it seems like there's a limit to how much you can change it. I tried to start it fast because I knew it started really low, started really low. But it just seemed too fast. Well, in a case like that, you know, you can't save it. All you can do is do the best you can. You can't save it. even though not everybody was with it.

[12:23]

Some people were with it, as it was going faster. You know, with that one in particular, I think there's a point where people can't say the words. And we were really approaching that. It's just, they can't get the syllables out fast enough. And that happens with some frequency. It's not a chant that we're real good at. It's complicated to say, and we don't say it often. I just think that was too... I was way ahead of people, but the pace at the end, I think, was just too fast. Period. It's too fast to say it. Well, actually, Dahi Shindhirani, we have different feelings about Dahi Shindhirani. I don't think it's so complicated to say. And it's the one we've been doing for years and years. Except for this heart sutra, we've done it the most. Well, I'm not talking about how it should be. I'm talking about, you know, new people coming into the sangha who've never said it before.

[13:26]

And we don't say it every day the way we used to. We used to do it every afternoon. But what I hear is people not being able to say it. Well, let's do it this way, okay? If we have a steady pace and pronounce each syllable completely, then we're less likely to have any problems and we're more likely to all be together and chanting very strongly. The way that I want to do it is, that I want us to do it is, like... Just like that. And we do it sometimes, and we get into that.

[14:47]

And then the Fukudo thinks we're supposed to go faster. And it's real upsetting, because here we're doing it. Each syllable's coming out real strong, and everybody's together. And the Fukudo starts to go faster. And it just kind of wrecks the whole thing. And you want to change? Yeah. And that's when I usually go like this. Yeah, I think, you know, at some point I have the notion that at some point we work to kind of pick up the pace. Yeah, well, but you can do that. How does it change? You can do that. It's like, and sometimes I talk about intensity rather than speed, because it does get more intense. And the speed is a little bit quicker. And if it's not a little bit, but when I say a little bit, It's not what most people think of. It's not a perceptible change, it's a gradual change.

[15:51]

So you're going a little faster at the end, and gradually it becomes more intense. Otherwise, it has a feeling of slowing down, even if it's very steady. And it's subtlety. It sounds different than what I've said, and we've said it many ways at different times, but this is always what we've meant. Other times we've said, well, at a certain point pick it up and so forth, but this is the last word. What I'm saying is the physiology of the chanting is that there are sections where just the rhythm of words picks up the pace. That's right. And so that, and that's just, I mean, that's just a natural kind of occurrence. Yeah, we should pick up on that. So that once you've hit that pace and there's a pickup, then I usually run into the bind of, well, I can't go back to the original pace because now, you know, you're not supposed to slow down either.

[16:56]

So now we've picked it up. And that just happens. You just stay there. Then there are other times later on when the chanting, because the physiology again, it tends to slow down. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting. But that just happens in the natural linguistic. Right. It's true. But they don't slow down. Don't slow down. Like in the Dahi Shindhirani, you get to a place where it's sha, ri, shi, like that. And that's a natural pickup. Sha, ri, shi, de. And then you feel good doing that, you know, a little quicker. Not a lot faster, but a little bit more. And then you just go along with it, you know. You should be free enough to go along with it, not be bound by, you know, mechanical beat. I think that we think that to hold something steady needs to be mechanical, and it's not like that.

[18:04]

There has to be some freedom, flexibility, you know, in what you're doing. And when it feels better to go, it just falls into that, you know, and then you do that. But without... Some people cut off some of the syllables in the Dahi Shindirani, cut them short. Su-ri-o, Su-ri-o, like that. And those vowels should be, you know, really get into those vowels. Really get into those vowels. It should be Su-ri-o, Su-ri-o. That's the way we normally chant. We say Su-ri-o, Su-ri-o. Su-ri-o, Su-ri-o. And you can do that without changing the beat at one iota. It's just that you emphasize the vowels, and if we always emphasize the vowels, it has nothing to do with speeding up or slowing down. It just means that it's more satisfying. So, I don't want us to have the feeling that we're rushing, and I don't want us to have the feeling that we're plotting.

[19:14]

Just a nice, energetic, Steady. Steady, not meaning mechanical. Beat, which, where you really chew up, swallow each word, you know, chew each word. And sometimes it sounds like I'm kind of dictating myself. You said you're supposed to do it this way. Now you say you're supposed to do it that way. But I'm not really changing anything, actually. I've always, it's always been this way. Could you give us a demo when you're ready? Yeah, well let's do the Heart Sutra in English. And I'll do this. Demolition. With some of this, right?

[20:19]

Maybe you could announce it. Maha Prajnaparamita Vidaya Sutra. Om. Avalokiteshvara Bodhi. Paramita, Paramita, birth deep and all might come, that in their own being are empty in blessing from all. Sabrina, Shariputra, form that landed her crown, that differs from form, that which is form is emptiness, that which is emptiness, form plus aim is true, but feelings, perceptions, impulses, consciousness, those shall rebirth.

[21:32]

are marked with emptiness. They do not appear nor disappear, are not tinted nor pure, do not increase nor decrease. Therefore, in emptiness, no form, no feelings, no perceptions, no impulses, no consciousness, no eyes, no ears, no nose, no tongue, no body, No sound, no smell, no taste, no touch, no object of mind, no realm of art. No extinction of it, until noble age and death, and also no extinction of it, no suffering, no origination, no stopping, no path, no perfection, also no attainment, with nothing to attain,

[22:43]

The mind is now interest without any hindrance, no fears exist, far out of harm can be preferred, and here she dwells in nirvana. In the three worlds all Buddhas depend on Prajnaparamita, and the same answer has complete, perfect enlightenment. Therefore know that Prajnaparamita is the creation The transcendent mantra is the great right mantra, is the utmost mantra, is the supreme mantra, which is able to heal all suffering and is to not also proclaim the Prajna Paramita Mantra, proclaim the mantra that says, the pitch started to descend a bit.

[23:51]

And also, the pitch that we started at was a little bit on the low side. It was OK, but it was a little low. So when the Kokuyo chants, the Kokuyo has to have a conception. You can't just say something. You have to have a conception of where you want to take everybody. Because you're taking us. You're giving us the cue and we're doing what you want us to do. So, what's your conception? Is that what we should all be doing? Are you giving us your finest leadership? It's true. Yeah, it is true. I know that when Ron's Kokuyo, I mean, it's not only just the introduction, but it's all the way through, and actually he sets the pace.

[24:57]

And it makes it cohesive. Right. So that that kind of leadership, I think, helps everybody. Right. And it does set the pace. Right. So it's easy to join somehow. It's easy to join. The pitch that Ron produces, I've noticed, isn't one that I recognize as my own pitch. But somehow, when I come out with my own pitch, it always matches. The problem is when somebody comes out with a pitch that I have no... that when I come out with my own pitch, it doesn't bear a relation to it. Well, I think what we should think about, you know, is that we don't have an own pitch. We can adjust to anything. And that's how we should be thinking. Whatever the pitch is, we can adjust to that. We don't have a... We say, well, this is my usual pitch. We do have a tone, a voice. But that's flexible.

[25:59]

We just happen to have a comfortable speaking voice. But it can change. And we can change it. And it's not some set thing. But if it's too low, it's not comfortable for us. If it's too high, it's not comfortable. There's a kind of mean that everyone can join into pretty easily. And that's what we should try to present. When I lead the chant, I try to present that. I say, well, this is what I think everybody can... This is the pitch I think everybody can meet comfortably. And that's what I look for when I lead the chant. And I also try to think, Well, how does my voice sound the best? And how does it sound the fullest? And how does it sound that I would want someone else to do it so that I would follow it? I think all those things.

[27:01]

And not just come out with something, you know. So that's what I mean by conception. to think about it, about how, you know, and is this, is what I'm doing, does it inspire me? Am I inspired by what I'm saying? You have to inspire yourself so that you can follow yourself. If you can't inspire yourself, who are you going to inspire? We really have to think in that way. That's why, you know, usually, you know, one thing you can do is to have some special person do it because they have a good voice, you know. But we don't want to do that. It wouldn't work anyway. That person would always have to be here for service. Keep them in the closet and pull them out for service.

[28:03]

Maybe just take the perfect service. There you go. That's how we should be thinking, you know. We should all be training ourselves that way. And then when you... You know, you have to listen to the sound of your own voice. And you say, oh, I'm scared of the sound of my own voice. That's too much for me. I'm afraid of people. I'm afraid of what other people will think of my voice. Here I am putting it out there. Not only am I putting out my voice, but I have to put out a voice that inspires me. That's hard. That's not easy to do. I have something on the same track.

[29:16]

I notice, we're talking about Kokuyo now, but I notice that when I'm just not doing it with, what I'm doing alone, it's no effort and it always sounds good. But the moment that I get in this room and I have all of this intention and all of this expectation, it's hard to hit it right. Right. Each time you should think about, why am I not hitting it right? But usually we just do it and then we walk out the door and forget it. I used to talk to people after service, you know, but they got tired of it because they thought I was criticizing them personally. I used to say, well, you know, think about this and think about that. So I just don't criticize people's practice anymore at all. I never say anything, hardly ever say anything, except I say something wrong sometimes. But I usually don't say anything to anybody, I just figure that they'll get it someday in this life or the next.

[30:24]

Well, I would find it really easy if you did say more. Well, people would say, geez, he's always criticizing me. Well, if we all know that... Even if you know it, even if you know it, it's true. I appreciate the fact that you don't criticize me. But I just end up a lot of the time feeling as if I didn't do it right, but I'm not quite sure what wasn't right. And there's no way of resolving that unless I get some feedback from you. That's true. It's really true, but what can I do? The best thing would be if you came and said, what did you think of that? Then I would be able to say something. So I would welcome that. What did you think of that? So since we're doing, just doing Fukudo today, but I really feel that we need to go over Doan again, the bells, and Kokyo.

[31:37]

Those things are really I would like to put more effort into those, into us looking at that and doing it, working it out together. What I'd really like to do is have a day or half a day where we just commit ourselves to staying here and going through a service three or four times and looking at all the things, you know, and just going over and over until we, and looking at all these various points. You can get too saturated with it. I would really like to do that because things are so interconnected. You know, you can talk about this, but this is connected with chanting, it's also connected with that, and it's connected with the harmony of things. And talking about this in an isolated way is okay, but it's not enough, you know. Many Sendo managements of America can schedule a super Doenkopyo Fukudo meeting. Let's talk to them about it.

[32:38]

Well, you know, we could do that. We could have a... take some breaks, you know, and have some cookies. Coffee and donuts. Coffee and donuts. I need coffee. But I would like to do that sometime. Say, a morning or an afternoon or something. Maybe a Saturday afternoon like this. And just keep going because... and have more people. We didn't plan to do that today, so we shouldn't. One thing about this, when we come to the end of the sutra, you go like that and hold it on. The last syllable is always... I would like to see what our chanting sounds like in a with this, when we have a higher pitch, a little bit higher pitch that's easier for us to all chant at.

[33:44]

And see how that goes. Can we do that? Then we do it again, but think about maybe that pitch. Maha Prajna. One thing I want to say is I think that a chanting pitch should be a little bit higher than your normal speaking voice because you're putting more effort into it, you know, and you're trying to sustain something over a long period of time where you have to keep taking breaths, you know, and renewing your breath and sustaining it. So a normal pitch is comfortable speaking, but it's I think a chanting pitch should be a little bit higher than your normal speaking voice.

[34:51]

Why don't you pass out some cards? We don't have some. I need a card. Oh. You can go through the whole chant. No, no, just the Heart Sutra. The whole Heart Sutra? Just the Heart Sutra. Help me. I guess. One thing, now that you mention it, I think that Fukudo should learn the chant by heart. Because otherwise, I mean, you can go along with it, but one thing is you shouldn't read it like this. I think we stopped doing that, but we did that for a while. And the other thing is that if you know the chant by heart, then this becomes more part of it. Okay, so, a little bit higher.

[35:57]

Maha, maha, prajna, about like that. Maha, prajna. It's too high. When we read, I'll be going, avalokiteshvara. So, a little bit lower. Mahāprabhupāda Paramitā Vidyāsutra Mahāprabhupāda Paramitā Vidyāsutra Mahāprabhupāda Paramitā Vidyāsutra Nesting deeply, the fresh compart of me, the first seed that all flesh comes out in their own being, are empty and were saved from all suffering. O Shari, who transformed, does not differ from emptiness.

[36:59]

Inaudible That's much easier for everybody. And also, it didn't feel like there was anyone's voice dominating. It felt like everybody was chanting together. This is not too steady because we're a little self-conscious. But it was better. Did you feel better? It sounded way too high when it started, but it turned out all right. Well, I think what happens is people settle in. Whichever, if it starts a little high or a little slow, then we all kind of adjust it to make it comfortable.

[38:01]

If it's a lot, then it's hard, but if it's just a little bit, we all automatically kind of adjust to a comfortable pitch in that area. I think it's easier... things flow downward, I think, anyway. I think it's easier to settle down on something than to come up. So, the two basic things we have trouble with, three basic things we have trouble with is pitch, which the fukudo doesn't have to work, it's not the fukudo's problem, but you are involved in that. If it's too low, you have to go faster, and you have to be able to judge that. If the pitch comes out too low and everybody's dragging, you should discern that right away and go faster. You know it's going to drag. you take off a little bit quicker and we all go along with it.

[39:03]

But basically, you're not concerned so much with fast or slow. Now don't say, but you said we shouldn't go faster, we shouldn't go slow. Don't be so literal in your understanding. Sometimes it's faster than other times and sometimes it's slower than other times. But what we're concerned with is what the intensity is. It should have a good intensity and we should try to encompass each word and not cut the words off. Sometimes if you're kind of mumbling or cutting the words off and you know, if you're right in with every word, it's much less problem. Just don't run into the problems of fast or slow. Just be with every word. Sometimes you can be with every word and it starts to get slower, you know. Space out. Don't space out. I don't know what else I can say.

[40:08]

I'm trying to cover all the points, all the fronts. Don't space out. Huh? Don't space out is the shortest way of saying everything. Yeah, that's true. That's true. Try and be alert. Give it spirit. The Kokyo should give it spirit through chanting. through their leadership. What I say, the way I say this is the way the thing is going to turn out. That's true. The way the Kokuyo introduces it is the way the whole thing is going to go. And so that's the most important thing. And the next important thing is the way the Fukudo keeps everybody in time. Not by imposing time, but by Big time. It's all right.

[41:09]

Now there's a small point which I've been saving up for this meeting, which is the Konpyo analysis of sutra. And, let's see, to reconstruct it. I'm glad you brought that up. You were a little too soon this morning. You came a little too soon this morning. Did I? But what I notice is how late it often... that when it's late, it's really disturbing to me. Same as when it's early. Either way, when it's not right on time, but what I notice most often is when it's late. The conchita is left hanging way out there. Right. And everybody wants to start and it's even just a little bit.

[42:14]

Well, the question is how do you know when to do it? What determines when you hit the bell? I mean, how do you know exactly when to hit the bell? Well, you just have to know it. Yeah, but there has to be a way. I mean, you know, there has to be something that determines. You can say, well, it's your intuition. But something has to determine when you get the bell. You have to be able to explain that to yourself. Actually, that applies to other points, too. The other point had to do with the Fukudo. Gosh, I have to try to remember when that occurs because I'm not at every single service. Well, it's a matter of listening to the rhythm from the beginning. The Kokyo has a rhythm. Kokyo says, Maha, Prajna, Paramita, Udaya Sutra, and that has a rhythm.

[43:22]

Da-da, da-da, da-da, da-da, boom. And then the fukudo starts the beat. Within that rhythm. Right. The kokyo, I mean the doan, hits the bell within that beat, and then the fukudo carries that on. So it's maybe not one beat, maybe two or three beats. If it's four beats, then it's too long. you know, Kokyo's gasping for breath. So, Maha... the way Malkin says it, Maha Prajna... he's very rhythmic. Maha... he holds his A's. Maha Prajna Paramita Radhaya Sutra Haaa... Boom! Haaa... Boom! But you feel it, it's within the rhythm of the way that Kokyo is saying it. And then the Cucurdo carries on that rhythm.

[44:27]

You kind of feel out the space, you know. But if you have the rhythm, you can feel out the space. Well, you waited, like, two beats. If you'd done one beat, would that also have been all right? Well, I don't know. Maybe. No, one beat would have been too soon. In the abstract, you know, it would be good if we could all get together and do it. Mostly we do it right. Mostly we do it right. Sometimes we get a little off. When mostly it's right. When we don't, it's really disturbing. But I would say when we don't is when we're not listening to the rhythm. But mostly we do it right just intuitively. That's true. So if you listen to the rhythm and not get...

[45:10]

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