I don't know if you can hear my voice. Can you at the back? Good. I'm not used to be a speaker at all. Forty-five, eighty-four years. I was always listening to the spectator in the background until you kidnapped me here, put me in a front and I didn't know I had a language or anything that could interact with people. When Bob Shapiro, he didn't invite me, simply parameterly said, you will be in California next year. And I said at once I had nothing to teach, nothing to sell him, and he said, that's why we want you, and off he went. So I don't know what I teach, I don't know what I do. But long ago in the past, when I was working at Darlington Hall in Devonshire, 1929, there, Rabindranath Tagore,

[01:09]

I met him for the first time. He was a guest there and I was a gardener. We were about eight or ten gardeners, a big place, and we had a very democratic place. We had what we called a solar, it's a room big as this, where the weekend guests, and there were quite often weekend guests there from abroad, they gathered there, they spoke a bit, tricks, and we were invited to go, everybody, servants, gardeners also. So there I met Rabindranath Tagore for the first time. I had some of his books, and his casual invitation when he left, come to India to teach silence. That's half a joke, but that casual invitation made me take a holiday the next year, and I went to India, alone, overland, slowly. I did it in Greece and Palestine, Egypt, Ceylon, and came very late too, late in the sense that the heat came along. In April, the heat comes too hot for me. But there, Darjeeling, at the chance indication Tagore's

[02:18]

place, Tagore had a place in Darjeeling, and also his private secretary, and also a Danish woman came the weekend there, she was private secretary, so she played the booze for ten years. They had a house, and in their house I spent the first monsoon. So my three months of holiday support became eighteen. That happens in India, because after that, and when after that I came, I had one month in Burma, right up to the Chinese frontier, on the other day. I came back to the chance indication, only there, some American or Canadian Quakers, Hardy and Rebecca Timbers, they for the first time gave me the chance to introduce to Indian people, and coming into Indian settings, I was accepted there, because of my simplicity. In England, in the West, I had

[03:21]

escaped education, at least from childhood, and I had worked for twenty years in England as a simple gardener. But that ability and simplicity was my asset in India. That, and also my adoptability, I could be at home with anyone. People there, somebody sometimes said, we don't feel you are here. I was Western in that setting, in the village, bare, cold, unclean floor, we got a little ashen to sit on, no furniture, but I could be, and it's the sense that the third thing was non-critical attitude, and that coming from the West I didn't have. You come with a mental, my mind was not developed to be in trouble, and mine is the great trouble. Would you give an example of a critical attitude? Critical? A mental attitude, that's almost always critical. In our attitude when we're with people,

[04:22]

egogees normally, what is our critical attitude, as contrasted with that non-critical? You come to India, and when you got away from that group of people, then you see your attitude, then you see their attitude to you. Because you are mental, you are critical, you see things differently, they can hear, almost hear your thinking. That sense, that feeling, that now I've been in India for all these years, and I don't know the Indian languages. There are so many, and Hindi I know enough to get my need, but not to converse with Hindi. Many English-speaking are there, and I speak very, spoke very little, so I never learned Hindi, because I didn't need it. There in India, there is a language, the intuitive language, a language of silence, a language of being, not of doing. Here you do, do, do. What type of attitude might a western mental-conditioned person have, as he is amongst Indians, that they could see?

[05:27]

But to have a mental attitude all the time, because the mind is what you've been developing here in the west, especially. I was trying to get some example of how that mind might be operating at that time. You didn't see how your own mind, their reaction to it. Ah. They see at once the reaction. I see, stuck in my own mind, and not aware of how they take it. Should I like the best of Buddhism, that's a doctrine of no mind, because mind must not develop to be in trouble. There was no imprecision in my childhood, very harmonious in sense, and contentment was there all the time. It's against your throat, let me lower it. It's all right, it doesn't matter here.

[06:29]

That's much better. With the hair and all that, all right. So that has been there from my childhood, contentment, and also non-assertion. I never asserted, I never even spoke when other people were speaking, and a very good boy, because I did not assert it. The mind and the ego is very much the same, and my ego is not asserted. So I had to make new terms when I had to find a language for my own being, and that is ego-free. Not egoless, you cannot be egoless or be among egos, but you can be ego-free when you do not identify yourself with it. And that kind of awareness is there. So in Ramana Maharshi, but that's a long story, I did not go to India in search of anything consciously. I had had a certain experience

[07:29]

in England, at Darkington Hall, nothing to do with Tagore, but there was there a certain, what do you call it, a good death, a small death. And I was alone, and I traveled all these tons of miles, with no conscious purpose except this, to see, to feel if that's consciousness. I had in Indian literature, in Bhagavad Gita, in the Light of Asia, Japan says, if that was a living thing in India still, I did not know anything of the conscious, the present India, and there was Mahatma Gandhi, rebellion, I mean, not bloodshedding, but there were terrorist movements in Bengal, and I didn't know. So a little diffident, and I came in by the back door, that is Ceylon. But that is partly, it all had to happen afterwards, when you see. But I had not conscious search of anything. I had no problems, I had no answers, no questions. I did go to this ashram, because it was a place where you could meet people, and where you were very welcome, especially Western people at the time.

[08:31]

Ashram, too many in India. There are two meanings of the word ashram. An ashram is where a guru gathered people around him, and usually in a forest, is what they really mean. A forest, seclusion with guru. But there is also another meaning of ashram. That is the four ashrams. You are a brahmacharya, you are a householder, and so on. And in the not very ancient times, quite recently, in India, sanyas was the last thing, the last of the four. Not what needs to come in neo-sanyas, and now you can get it by correspondence, by return post. Well, but that is also the new world, the new race that is being born, so like. But that is the ashram. So there are many ashrams in India, with a guru. There are many mokranandas, there are many shivanandas there in India, even by the same name.

[09:34]

Groups of people gather around him. So that is an ashram. And there are many, and there were very good ones at the time. I mean, there are many good ones even now, but they were quite famous. Ramana Maharshi's ashram became famous, and there would have been the ghost in Pondicherry. And so, so we went to them. We were very welcome, because even western people. And I was always a spectator, always a witness, and I was not susceptible, not even now. All these gurus and avatars, also local ones, and American ones, and I'm not susceptible to them. As a spectator, as a witness, that's my, even now, even now when I'm talking. I've been in a, the guru asked me to come to him to teach silence. Perhaps that's what I'm doing, even now when I talk, talk, talk, talk. You can feel silence behind it all, because that was

[10:38]

a real thing. Silence became a kind of reality to me, and I put it on my gate, underneath the word Sumyata. That was a western consumption. But in India, Mauna is quite respected. You go into Mauna, many people have one day of silence. Mahatma Gandhi had a faster word. So that's quite respected, but the first one was Sumyata, and that was the name Ramana Maharshi gave me, and which I took as an alias, when I became an Indian subject. Sumyata. It's rather strange for him to do it, because it's basically a Buddhist term. Sumyata. My English friend called it just plain and void. The full, solid emptiness. This paradox you must get up to.

[11:43]

Were you ever in the company of other children when you were at a child age, and observed them wanting this and that, and crying, and wailing? No, they did not. That's a special western, American trait now. Well, were you ever in the company of other children doing that, because you lived... Now I am, just now. Oh, yes. I meant at the child age. No, my host is not here. He keeps them up to 11 o'clock. I'd like to go to bed at 9 or 10 o'clock, but the children, they always, they break in all the time. Oh, yes, yes, yes. Yeah. So I'm quite, I'm quite in his knowledge. Knowing my childhood, I was a solitary, and I was nice, I was pleased to be so. So you went to school at seven, except for that one little kid that came and stayed for a while. There wasn't really any...

[12:47]

I was about 10 about the time, 9 or 10. Yes, and I was very sorry when he left, but that 10 has been the whole time. I haven't gone out to people. I don't meet anyone. Now I have the notion, perhaps, I was born whole. See, Ramana Maharshi said... Wait, Shunya, weren't we all? Yes, but my childhood was solitary. You didn't fall out of it. And more so than, because there are some remnants, some things inherited from my father. You do have certain, for your people, certain tendencies. My father was a mystic, in that sense. He had no expression in words. Mother, he... Very good relationship. Mother would never do anything without his approval or his money, because he was a earner. But she had brought up the two girls. I had two sisters who were much older than I. Didn't impose on you in any way? No. I came very late.

[13:48]

And I thought, perhaps too late to be... He never tried to interest it. Did you ever feel like you wanted his attention and his company and his... No. There was a kind of mutual... We were so much alike. That child was so much like him. But he... The greatest gift he gave me was that he left me alone. There were no impositions. Not in what should I do, no aim at being clever and learning, that sort of thing. I never reached out for knowledge. I don't remember ever asking questions. What is this? What is that? And how is this done? No. It came... What I need comes to one. And he did to me. Well, all right. Now, there are many who usually later in life, you know, 20s up to 90s or something like that, have rediscovered that original consciousness. And if that's the way of putting it.

[14:50]

Not many. Well, all right. But not many, no. But we read about him in history. And, you know, people like Buddha and so on. And then... No. ...Alawat says that they're all around except that they don't speak of it. No, in the New. Yes, they're wise not to speak about it. Yeah. And that... They're wise not to speak about it, is that what you said? Yes. They may not have the facility. They may not have the language. For instance, me, I did not have a language of my own experience. They usually discover that. They come to that, rediscover that later. And did you ever read or hear of anybody who didn't lose it originally in childhood, other than your own story? I wasn't aware at all of the people. And I met very few, indeed. Well, have you ever heard of anyone who never lost it in the first place? Well, the... Who didn't fall into the dual thing? The only thing in it is Ramana Maharshi did not have any... He was not a born mystic, but he was mystic enough. Or real enough to die when he was 17, 16.

[15:51]

Aged 17, okay. 16. To accept death. And he died. He had that... The ego died through completely there. It lasted the rest of his life. For 50 years, a monk was in that state of consciousness there. And there was an example, a living example of the riches of the past. And of... Of... Same in Nisargadatta, of Advaita Vedanta. He was a living example. Yeah. There was Shankaracharya in the past. There was this... And Anandamayi, maybe the nearest one, was born, so... Because she had no guru. Not any external guru. She went into trance as a child and gradually she came to that awareness, that wisdom. Yeah. But she never learned help. Ah. And she lived it. And that's what this half a dozen people that I know, they have lived it. Now it can hardly be lived here in the West. If you get in that state of consciousness, except when you talk about it, you take lightly.

[16:53]

I like the word light and lightly. Yes. And not trying to be understood. So only when Ramana Maharshi came, Paul Brunton came, and she said, after our first meeting, we were spotted on Lotus Feet and there was some talk. Paul Brunton asked him questions also. He asked me questions. I had none. I couldn't decide with the questions as to... I responded. And that's the whole thing. I could respond. And I have read so many books. I can respond to many consciousnesses. So... But he asked me questions. He asked me about Dr. Evans-Wentz. That's the only thing I remember, these questions. Dr. Evans-Wentz had been my neighbor in Almora. He had been there a few weeks or months earlier. Me coming from Almora, he asked me about him. The only thing I remember. Do you remember whether he asked you any sort of philosophical questions? No.

[17:54]

That he wouldn't. Probably not. Nothing different from anybody else when you come to any of these ashrams. Well, he probably wanted to hear enough from you to find out who you were. He needed not ask these questions. He could see that in my voice and my whole attitude. And when I... Yes, and then I went back and back. And that was my place all the time. By the wall in the back, because I liked my wall. So I wasn't there. And you never made any attempt to get close to him or talk to him at all? No. I had no question. I never went in front. And I never... In India, they go, meet him first. I mean, up in a long row, cradled on the ground, full. I went into the door and I said, whether he saw it or not. And then I scored a goal by the wall. I did not go near him.

[18:56]

It's a good sign. There was no ego. The ego only wanted to be shown, but I didn't. But he saw me right at the back when I came there the second time. It's such a surprising thing. And then the third time, he didn't... Five English words were spoken by him. But not anybody else heard it. Of the group. And no one would believe it if I told them. Huh? It would mean nothing to anybody else, but it did to me. These sounds within me, so clear and so simple. We are always aware, sunyata. We. What does it mean? Is it he or I, or is it everybody? Both. But the word always, that struck me. Because in England, I had the word, awareness is all. All right, before I came to India.

[19:57]

And that was taken from Shakespeare's King Lear, where it says, no, not we, but man must endure his coming hither and his going hence. Rightness is all. From that rightness, I took awareness is all. Maturity. Readiness. Readiness to die. Existentially. So that I had already. But him saying it, you see, he knew our thought. And that's what's the part with that, because he used the word awareness. Krishnamurti had used it much in the past, awareness. And how, in other words, sunyata, it's not in a Hindu term, especially. In ancient time, in the Rig Veda, it has. My friend Anirvan, who translates the Rig Veda, it's been a life work. He wrote me in a letter, perhaps I still have that, he said in Anirvan, the eternal fire. And so he wrote me a letter, how they loved it and how little they spoke about it.

[21:03]

Sunyata. But the ordinary Indian, again, you could not hardly know what sunyata is. But the commoner must have used that, and awareness. To that, I took it. It had taken us a month, but the name was there, everything was there. He never initiated in orthodox fashion. He didn't, with a look sometimes, a little radiance, that look, I see it almost physically. And by a touch, very rarely, but by his silence. In his silence, people came with problems and difficulties, and in his silence, they either felt so insignificant, but mostly they got the answer within. Without him talking. Sunyata, regarding Ramana Maharshi, do you know if, prior to his ego death at 17, do you know whether he was consciously on a search for... No.

[22:05]

No. He had no external guru. But he had some saints, he had a few saints, there was a book about saints. He was attached to that, he sometimes went to the temple, and Shiva, and, yeah. But very little, he was an ordinary boy, not very clever, but hefty, and kind of leader, and physical, and that changed completely when he had that experience. And what... do you know what was going on within him immediately prior to that, that he... was he stewing over some particular matter, or... type of thing? I don't know, I don't think so. Quite an ordinary, but suddenly he had that feeling, I'm going to die, death has come. Wouldn't effort, sincerity, be required for... Well, yes. He was probably sincere in his own way, quietly. So it needn't be in sincere pursuit of a goal, but sincere to... anything.

[23:08]

A certain maturity needed to be true, that's what he did at 17, 16. He was 16, death has come. Now, what has happened, instead of crying out to help other people, he accepted death. Let us see what comes. He stretched out, made his body rigid, and tried to stop breathing, tried to experience death. Physically. Thinking physically. And then also, he described it quite nicely in one place, definitely what happened at the time, he said, too. And now, we will go to the cremation ground. So he realized there that what we really are is... cannot die. Ego and all this futility and all these illusions. And that was what he realized there. And after that, for some weeks, he never told anybody. He was there in quietness, and once he told me, sometimes he went back,

[24:16]

tried to get back in that stillness. He went to school, and at one time, at least, he sat with his book before him. Not pretending to write, but for the other people. He went into that state of consciousness, that's what he tried again and again. And then, after a few weeks, he had to pay his school fees. His brother told him the five rupees, and pay that debt. He took three of them, three rupees. It's only a few cents, but it was enough at the time, to get him to Thiruvananthapuram. He thought so, it was, really, but he didn't know how to get there. So he had to spend a little more than he had, and he had to pawn his earrings to get there. But when he got there, he threw all the money in the tank, it's hair-shaving, and sat in the temple. Oblivious of cleanliness of food or anything.

[25:19]

But in India, men saw much better, but he didn't, because they fed him. But he was so oblivious to his body, he let the vermin eat it. His flesh. And he was in that state of consciousness. But oblivious, and went in silence. He didn't talk. He didn't talk for some years, I don't know how long, but when his mother, after some years, found out where he was, she came to try to get him back. He didn't talk even then, but he wrote down on a paper certain things. It's Parabdha Karma, you better be quiet. Then afterwards, when his elder brother died, he came there alone. He took very little notice of other people, simply the food, and perhaps by the others he was aware of, but he didn't. He didn't ever, during any time, give talks? No. He sometimes told some anecdotes and something for the scriptures.

[26:24]

I see. Answered questions. But there were not many, there were some. There were these two volumes. Question and answer. Talk without no answer. And that is a tendency with so many people. I mean, with those type of people, what I call like great Vedantists. Nisargadatta, Anandamaya. And they're all different, but differently beautiful. After he had that experience, he went to Tiruvannamalai, to the Arunachala Mountain. He stopped there all the rest of his life. First in caves, and then when his mother died, down by the foot of the hill, where this ashram is now going up. And there in 1930, when I came there, there were very few people there. Buildings also. There were no dining halls, no houses. Yet we had the feet around her samadhi, where she was buried.

[27:27]

Where not a big temple had gone up. There were only a few people there. Eight or ten. And Paul Borton had his footing in Tiruvannamalai itself, a mile distance. It was so simple at the time. And now are they treating his mother as a deity and are worshipping her? Yes. They are. Yes, in a way. They need the feminine aspect also. And she's supposed to have gone through because he helped the curse. There is the notion that the cancer was taking her karma. The last two years. Did he ever say that? No. Not to my knowledge. But it can be done. None of us could take the illness of other people. But that was the illness. This was the karma. So that had to be worked out. Have you ever had anything of experience of that sort? No. I was born, born so. Born whole.

[28:29]

Look at the body. It's not had any disease or anything. And no Kundalini that I know of. Because it hasn't been any trouble to me. Yes, when Ramana Maharshi called me a rare-born mystic, Paul Brinton, I did not hardly know what a mystic was. And born, born stopped me. So in my solitude and harmony in Alamo, in Himalaya, in the summer, I focused on my childhood, what happened in my childhood, my reaction to things. And so I, there was very little ego developed, no, in the mind. And so, and all this in the background, all this is right from childhood. But I can tell you, that a little child like that did get many things.

[29:32]

No men, no mind. And that's where I got a new term now, intuitive, intuitive apperception. In my childhood, I feel there was that intuitive apperception. And also certain awareness coming from the past. Because I never, I heard them talk about it. It never came in reality to me. For instance, sin complex, I know it's not sin, and father complex, no. Perhaps my father was not so dominant, but father complex, no. And the imbalance there. If there is a father, if God is a father, there must be a mother too. How could he have a son? So they all wanted a daughter, and that's why the Christians later on had to fish up Miriam to die for quite recently. No, I never had, and it became no reality to me. But the reality was there a certain way when I went to be confirmed.

[30:38]

The past was such a bully. And I mean, one or two things I remember there. I had the notion of imminence. I couldn't explain, I had no word for it. But when he, oh, where is God? Imminence. And that's what he wouldn't have. I had no, another thing. That made me, rather than confirming me, he unconfirmed me. Because all what I now call church sanity and dogmas and all that rumbled up. It was a difficult time, of course, adolescence and all. My father sold the farm at the same time. Did he think God was in heaven? Is that what he wanted you to say? God was in heaven or something like that? Probably so. Where else would it be? Everywhere he didn't take. No, that he couldn't. But I see him sometimes in the Bible in certain terms of stigma. Omnipresent and imminent and omnipresent. Well, the same way later on Brother Lawrence, he writes the book, practiced the presence of God.

[31:40]

But it was a kind of reality. When later on I read in the Bible, Adam, was it Enoch or Adam, walked with God in the garden in the cool of the evening. I felt I walked in God rather than with God. It's a sense of non-duality there in my childhood. Something brought from the past. You didn't suppose an I going on all the time, commenting on your time. There was harmony, there was acceptance of things, there was contentment. This thing that keeps surprising me, when I asked you, didn't you notice that all these other people around you were involved in ego activities and troubles and wants and fears and everything, and that that wasn't your experience? And that, no, that didn't occur to you? No. It didn't even postulate an I as different from all those people. And I didn't. Yes? What does sensitivity mean to you? What does sensitivity mean to you? I suppose I was sensitive in what I call now intuitive perception.

[32:48]

You get things without, and I even do now. I am not susceptible to these vibrations. This speaks a lot about energy. Is that when you have notions of what other people feel? No, it comes to quite different. And they reveal themselves by being, well, what they feel in their talk, they reveal themselves. When they ask questions, they reveal themselves. And even then, I don't know how I get things, but it's nothing mental. It's not analyzing at all. If I meet a person, I couldn't describe that person, the features and the physical thing. No. It's sensitive awareness, intuition. Intuition is not the faculty. It's coming faculty now in a new race. Intuition. Insight. Out of silence, yes. If you keep silence, that's where you find other things, in silence. You find yourself, this self. Is that a message which you would tell us?

[33:51]

Well, silence is, yes, silence is to me a reality. Silence to me is a kind of reality. So out from silence we came, back to silence we go, back home. And silence was what Tagore asked me to come to him to teach silence. And silence has, now we have a little meeting for this meeting, when all this talk, we talk a meeting, silence. It's about 15, 12 or 15 people, somewhere else here in the neighborhood, before this meeting. They ask for it. And my host comes in every morning, working days, before I get up. Silence. He asks for it. And there were a little group in his home in the beginning, and then more Mill Valley asked for it, and so we moved to Mill Valley. They asked my presence. That's all. And there we had a very nice silence, very nice for Western people.

[34:53]

I enjoyed it. So silence, in silence, in meditation. The silence, it's not the silence of exactly a song, but that helped a great deal. The silence and cessation of desire, willfulness, ego, thought, the ego. You said the cessation of the thought. Cessation of desire. Desire. And willfulness. Yes. That is to say, thy will be done. It's a statement. It is done all the time. I find that very hard. Accept that. I have a lot of desires. My mind works a lot. I notice that intuition when it is quiet. There's a longing for that state. Still the mind, if you can. You can't have peace of mind because it's always active. But by saying, be still, it is too forceful to do it.

[35:57]

It's harrowing, isn't it? Don't try to be still. Get the habit of being still, of being. And that is what Nisargadatta, his guru told him, you are divine. Take this absolute truth and stay with this I am. Not this, not that. I am. I am. Be aware of being. And that's what we have in India, too. I translated being, awareness, grace. There can be others. Existence, consciousness, bliss, if you like. But I like grace because that's the only thing awakened. There's only one becoming. There's becoming awake and aware of being. Sat Chit Anand. Being, being aware of being, grace, Anand, the sequence comes. So that's the being, I am.

[36:58]

That was what the Jewish god, Jehovah, said to Moses when he asked his name. What is your name? So important. He asked God, his God, what is your name? And he thundered forth, Jehovah, I am that I am. Go and tell Israel that I am, send you. This I am is very important. That's really all what we know. We know so many things, but this I am, that we are, that we exist, being, a presence. It's as if the counterfeit is ego. Ego says I am, and that's the counterfeit. It is true in a way. When you say I am, that's a division. That's the first division. I am, that's contrast to something else. So it is the first fall into duality. But then it has to be, and you have to, that's why we are here, to learn through duality. And we have to also become aware that it is Leela, it is Sval Leela, it is God that happens

[38:03]

all the time. There were no creation and no destruction, there is transformation all the time. And that is Shiva in the aspect of Nataraja. There is also male and female, there is the rhythm, there is, ah, it dances the universe. That's one aspect. Another aspect is Gauri Shankara, male and female in one, Andhra Guna. So Shiva has so many aspects and so many names. There are 108 names in the Mala, and there are so many names, Gauri Shankara, and there is aspect, different aspects. It's not only destroyer. To me it's transformation all the time. Yes? Can you explain sort of that this one way of being is more counterfeit than another way of being? You only have to become aware of being. Then your doings will take care of themselves. If you know yourself, in that sense.

[39:05]

It is difficult to get across in the western language, the mental thing, because you can't really know yourself. But that is the thing that Ramana Maharshi find out who you are, who am I. You cannot know God. How can you know God? Because there are always two when somebody knows something else. Duality is still there. To know God is to be God. And to know yourself is to be yourself. Be aware of being what you are. What you have always been. But there is no counterfeit being. Can't affect what is not really. Capital being. No, no, false. No false. Way of being. False. The false way of being is egoty. Also egoty is a false way of being. This is an illusion. It doesn't exist really. I have a question on this who am I.

[40:07]

I don't know yet what I really want to ask. So if I say who am I, it is ego asking it, right? How do I come from this place of ego to the real sense of beingness, of wholeness? Be still. Still the ego, the mind. See, there is no real answer to this question who am I. It becomes an experience. That's what I think. Yes. I mean that's what I know. Yeah. At some level, yeah. And that experience is your own. Nobody else's. That's pertaining to you. That was what Ramana Maharshi got when he died at 16. Ego died completely. In his case, so completely he lost the rest of his life. He was among that state of consciousness that I call Christ consciousness, 50 years among us. I think that's a great crucifixion and three hours on the cross. To be among egoties in that state.

[41:10]

Of course, he didn't do anything here as you do here. The client there, he was there. His presence. But I have this, and that's also a contrast. Not a contrast exactly, but a distinction between the two. The Arhat and the Bodhisattva. The Bodhisattva, it's what I would call Rajneesh and also Krishnamurti and those people. And I would call the Arhat the other people. The non-dual. Which I have Ramana Maharshi, Nisargadatta, Anandamaya and those people. And their character is similar to all this. They have no gurus. There are no chela gurus. No organization around them. They don't write anything to be known. Don't try to be known. Non-exalted power and money and that sort. They will not come to this country. You get a chance.

[42:15]

When you say to be still, do you mean sort of like not to pay attention? Ramana Maharshi said once, somebody asked him, what is the aim of life? He said self-realization. What would that mean in the West? In India it would be God realization. Because guru, God and self are the same, identical, in India. So he said, and he said the method is to be still. Don't try to be still, but be still. Feel your stillness. Get out of your mind. Can you do that in this world, the way we are living it here? Oh, sure, you can. Sincere. Now you have so much practice here of meditation in the West. Meditation in that silence. But they come. Not the same people always, but they come and something must make them come there every week.

[43:20]

I don't really know what happens, but they come. But I do nothing but being there what I am. I don't try to get across, and that's also. I must be spontaneous, that's another thing, spontaneity. So, if you ask questions, I answer questions, I do it spontaneously. That may be, that's the key to coming out of it, out of the structure and the form of the mind, is through the spontaneity, through the improvising. But it becomes a natural thing. Spontaneity becomes a way of life. And that's not willful, you don't will to. And then you accumulate no other karma, good and bad. You don't really know what you do, but you don't try to hurt, you try not to hurt people with your questions, but otherwise. So, there in my case, I had a feeling.

[44:26]

I don't like the word to help, the word love. They're so vague and so ambiguous, so loaded with things. So, I had the word affectionate awareness. Affectionate awareness goes out to myself, everybody. And apart from that, there also comes the notion of affectionate detachment. Affectionate detachment. Not cut away, but detachment from things, from events and from equities. So, all this relationship you have here, it is all egos. Haya, the surface. Persona. It's the persona mask that meets and clashes sometimes. So, also that Ramana Maharishi, he was asked, I don't attire all these homages for 50 years.

[45:29]

I said, no, I bow down to them first. He did not do it physically, but that's what he did. It's all self everywhere. There's only one. In that form, the self is there. And love thyself. That's already the first great commandment. The second commandment is like that. So, love thy neighbor as thyself. The neighbor is thyself. And that's the first and most important commandment. I was told in my childhood, I couldn't get this thing, you must love God. God was something very far off. What is it you can't love in abstraction? The word God could not become a reality for me. That's why the word God is so loaded. And we have shakunas on Christ. Each one has his own concept of God. And also, it is our concept of the friend who is in it.

[46:34]

Our concept. Look how many... It doesn't decide what they want to say. No, they don't decide, they don't. Spontaneity. No decision. It just pops out. It comes naturally, yes. Simple. But there is a difference between impulsive and spontaneous, isn't there? Oh, yes. I mean, an impulsive people pops up too. Certainly. But there's more wisdom in being spontaneous, it seems to me. Impulsive, that's also ego from outside, yes. Doesn't it come from intuition? Which? That's spontaneity. I think it does. Intuitive light, that's what reveals reality in a way. And in childhood, this gets ridiculed and diminished. Especially here, yes. It didn't in my case.

[47:36]

Here, you had to learn to be clever and all, make a grade, and I never did. Or learn to be stupid. Well... I mean, people have to... In school, children are not allowed to know as much as the teacher, and this sort of thing. Now, another one in my house, he once said, learned ignorance. They are naturally ignorant, which is kind of embarrassing sometimes. But learned ignorance. All these pandits full of learning. They're stuck in that learning. Even people like science and all. So that sort of thing. They have got words in the Western language. Their knowledge, they say, supreme knowledge. What is supreme knowledge? They don't share the word wisdom. And they don't aim at it. It's an incredible paradox, because if a child, let's say in Catholicism or

[48:43]

even in Judaism, would question the division between God and self with a capital S, there's no division. But if a child would even attempt that questioning, then the rabbi or the priest would judge that as being ego. How dare you be so arrogant to assume that you are God? Oh, of course, I would never. Yes, so it's an incredible paradox. But it's ego on the part of the minister, the priest, to judge. I love everything that you're saying, but I don't understand.

[49:44]

Try to understand, not understand. Try to what? Understand. That's my word. Understand and know, that is so mental. And I never had in mind that I had to make new words. Understand. We all understand. What was that? But who are we? Well, it's difficult to get across in the Western terminology. We have it in the East, yes. I think people are not understanding that there's a process to a right that's dominating, and they're questioning where that process... It's probably so, but I don't... Confused, or stumped, or frustrated. And you're describing the end of the process. Intuition. It's always been there for you, but it isn't for other people. No. They have to go through that process. The only thing...

[50:46]

I did go through that process. I can't describe it. But intuition is a faculty we all have. Women have it more than men do. But they're not quite so steady. They wobble sometimes. But we don't train it and focus it. Discipline it, train it, and live by it. To me, it's a light that reveals reality. And it's not fundamental. It's not a development from the intellect. It comes from afar, from above. Intuition. Insight. There are many new words also. Empathy is another one. Empathy. And that's it. I was quite elated when that came into my ken. There's a word for it. For empathy. Sympathy is feeling with. Empathy is feeling in. Being the consciousness for other people. And that, to some extent, I was.

[51:46]

Because of my writing, my looking in literature for... I became that good person. I became the writer of that. The consciousness that projected that book. Like Hannah Gibson and Jacob and those people. The consciousness that projected this book. And then the context that they created. To me, the process is like fire or a venereal disease. It's catching. So that all you have to do is be around it. And it happens. If you're around the spontaneity. The same as being around a guru. Satsang. If you are quiet and still. You'll get it. Without him talking to you. The same as Ramana Maharshi's play. So, one has to make the commitment to allow the process to happen within themselves. And not deny themselves.

[52:47]

There are those who don't. Who would deny. That's it. But it was there for my child. We don't know him. I had no terms. I had no name for it. You were already processed. That's what Ramana Maharshi, all the people found out. Without talking. So, he asked me questions. I don't know what they were. After that, there was no talk. And just the very fact that I didn't come near him. I didn't want anything. Sitting at the back. Could someone ever be, I don't know if you recognize this word, can they ever be antagonistic at the same time if they're spontaneous? No, I don't think they can. Spontaneous. Do you recognize antagonism? I do, yes. Someone can be antagonistic. Not spontaneous at the same time, no. So, antagonism, one would have to be somewhat deliberate to be antagonistic.

[53:49]

Yes, certainly. Ego. Spontaneity, you're not really in consciousness. It's not the ego that speak in one way. You have to speak spontaneously. You're under no trying there. I had a word, paradoxical. Self-controlled spontaneity. There are no real control, but self-controlled spontaneity. God-controlled, if you like. Rather paradoxical. But that's one of Udi's terms. Did you live all your life in India? No, only 45 years. Only 45 years? Half my lifetime.

[54:51]

Only. 20 years in Denmark. Are you Danish? I was born so, for 20 years. Farmers, from ancient times, past farmers. And then for 20 years in England, I became a British subject. Then I became an Indian subject. Now I'm here, I don't know what's happening here. Now you're an object. Object, that's right. Simply an object. Not British, and not anything else. What did you do when you were in India? Nothing. I learned to do nothing. And that's why, when I said to Bob Shapiro, I have nothing to teach and nothing to sell, and nothing to build. He said, that's why we want you. Yes, and when he sent a return ticket, $1,000, to get this nobody here. He knew my friend Udi.

[55:56]

He'd only been there a few times, days, but he knew, he got that, and that's not an example of inner standing, and not understanding. And he sent me that letter to him, long letter, but nothing much inside, but one sentence was there, was. Now, reality-wise, Sunyaji doesn't need to do anything. That's how I came here, to do nothing. I neither understand nor understand this idea of the self being God. See, that's a term in India, God and guru and self. Guru and God and self is the same thing. Ramana Maharshi always used the word self. They called him Bhagavan, sometimes he used that term. Bhagavan, as you call me, is your self. But that's an Indian term. There is only one self, and becoming aware of that.

[56:59]

You are Bhagavan, and you are everything, and you are nothing. Are we part of it, or I don't understand? But who are we? Find out who we are, who you are. What you call you is an illusion. The ego is an illusion, like a shadow. Yes, I can see that sometimes. Yes, and so when the light comes, the intuitive light or the real light, that never was on land or sea, become aware of that. Shadow is an illusion. How did it come out? Now, I have a little notion of that from my childhood, because it was so simple. There were no real divisions, there were no... up to seven years old. And so... Well, I think of this light as coming from some... it's in me, but coming from somewhere else. I don't think of it as me. That's where you have to be. They call it Christianity, the divine spark within everybody.

[58:01]

The Quakers have God in every man. That divine spark is what we are. And that was their present, and that's what we are, we were hundreds of years ago. That's where in Zen Buddhism, show me your original face that was yours, was you before your grandmother was born. That's where... Another word for Christ. Christ consciousness. That's my term for that, Christ awareness. When I was told that Christ had been born in London or somewhere here, there was not always Christ being born right here. The meeting here the first time, no, that was in the boathouse. That wasn't present, that common Christ. He is here only. So I began to focus what the word Christ, where did it come from? It was not in the Jewish religion. Greek word was pushed upon Jesus or other people.

[59:04]

In Greek, the anointed one, the consoler in other terms. There are so many names. Messiah. And that is what I now feel, the Christ consciousness. Immanuel. No, my peasant mother gave me the name Immanuel. That was my secret name, the indwelling Christ. And Christ was there in the beginning. Before the beginning. There's a saint, St. Agnes and St. Augustine. But we are the creations, but we're not the creator. We're not part of this. We are part of the creation. I want to make a distinct... I want to know if there's a distinction made between... Between us as creatures and the almighty work. There is and there is not.

[60:07]

We are also... First find out who you are, where the word we. There's other terminology now in that book, Christ, reason, pointers. They use the word noumenon, noumenon phenomena. Noumenon is what's up there. Consciousness, that's another term for it. And then there's ego-consciousness. Noumenon, protect yourself and all. In India we had it was Svalila. That's what this is. Svalila, play. It's God's play. It's God that happens all the time. Not creation and not destruction. And that's going on. Transformation is going on, changes. And so we are the noumenon. We seem to be the noumenon. Really, we are the noumenon. We seem to be the phenomena. We seem to be. We need protection.

[61:09]

We have a phrase in the Gita, one fragment of... Krishna said it could be silence. One fragment of myself, I protect all this universe. I am a man. So after the whole came into duality. The world made flesh and phenomena. And that's what we all are. Ever-changing. And anything that changes is not real enough. So seek, find and experience that which does not change. That's the who am I? You do that method of who am I? That's one way. And a good way too. I was never in search because I... But that's what I would recommend to everybody. Find out who you are. We don't know who we are. We think we are the body. But then you need to listen and fill it in with this stuff, right? Not only hear, but listen. That's right. It's like if your childhood had no divisions,

[62:14]

and let's say my childhood had a multitude of divisions, so either can be a road to the infinite by seeing the ridiculousness of all the divisions. So all the labels and all the dissecting just to sort of awaken to... Can you remember a while back when you said, in answer to a question, you said, well, there is and there is not. Can you remember that? What was the question? Well, I wish I could remember more clearly. Had you listened, you could have stated it. Yeah, you just asked it. There is a certain way. And I heard that, I remember that phrase. You asked and Sunyata said, well, there is and there isn't. Yeah. Remember the question? There is one phrase I remember.

[63:27]

I remember the phrase. Too many questions of any importance. There is a yes and a no. Like the second, like an equation of second degree. I don't know what it means at all. Equation of second degree. But I did ask one lately, and there is a certain reality there. And that's sort of where we have that wonderful word in Japanese. Because it means yes and no. It's very useful. And on one level, yes, another way, no. So that is where I dwelt. I suppose that you have to, you just have to be in the state that you're talking about, understand, the inner state. I was in that state without knowing it. That's where I tried to find.

[64:28]

Only when Ramana Maharshi called me a rare-born mystic, I began to focus. I became interested in myself. But I had no words of expression. I didn't need any, because I had no words to express. I was a listener, a spectator. And it's quite a different way. You see, I had my, what would you call it? My relationship with writers, with books. I found no kind of consciousness in my neighbor, in my son. I never tried to. I remember not trying. I felt that they would not understand. And I have never really reached out to be understood. When I last found a language up in Himalaya, when Ramana Maharshi said a rare-born mystic, I began to focus on my childhood. And I had a lot of correspondence. First I had them typed because of my handwriting, but I sent them out. They were so impersonal, I sent them out to many people. They were very cheap at the time. Ah.

[65:29]

And so I began to feel what that mystic, what it really meant, mystic and born. He was there in my childhood, but I had no ability and no words to express. And so I didn't find a language. I had a language in one way, in my writing, but not when I had to talk to people, no. When that group came into my sanctuary, the first time I talked to a Western-conditioned audience. I didn't know I had anything that could interest them or anything. The language, English is not my language. I never had a teacher in English. So it was there. And not only that, there was such a good report that Bob Shapiro said, We'll be in California next year. And it happened so. But such utter contrast. Could not hardly be after 20, 40 years of Himalayan solitude came in life.

[66:33]

It's not quite true, because in the winter I traveled in the plains. In hot or rainy season for eight months of the year, nine months, I was up in Himalaya, in solitude, living alone. Only companion was Ditwoodie, the other, after he left class. That independence, that self-dependence, you see, no more independence. We have a beautiful word for independence in India. That is Swaraj, self-rule. So if you take that in a big sense, well, self-rule. Yeah, Swaraj. You are not independent, really. You're all interdependent, but self-rule. And without knowing this, I've been by myself all the time. Solitude. Did you feel interdependence? Oh, that had been the whole time, of course. Interdependence there.

[67:34]

That's what I, we also had a Japanese word called Jijimu. Jijimu. You've got four or five English words to get that. First get the notion of interdependent, interpenetration. Interpenetration. So they are perfect, mutual, unimpeded interpenetration. That's what the Leela is, in one word. Do you feel like it can be a distraction to interact with too many people, as opposed to keeping solitude? Easily. Very easily. But needn't? It needn't be, because you can have that deep, there can be a seeming paradox. Deep down, you know the reality. I'm not frightened to be alone. We are all one. Not frightened, I'm never lonely. No, but I notice here, a lot of people always need to go places, because everybody doesn't want to be on their own. Because they're so mental, they're so egoistical. Ego wants, and that's so much related here, relatedness.

[68:41]

Which is not real enough, it's a misservice. It's the mask, the persona that meets, or clash. I have a growing sense of what you said, about everything being related. However, I... Interrelated. Interrelated, but I cannot yet use it practically. When I for the first time came to this country, I'm not the native of this country. I was kind of very shocked to see people lying on the street, and sleeping there, and nobody bothered. He just stumbled over them, and he walked off. Where, here in this country? As well, in this country. Oh, but much so more in India. Oh, I would imagine. They live in... It doesn't exist in Holland, in my country. No. And also, there seems to be a little bit, since I live in a small country, a little bit more heartfulness among people. A little bit more interrelatedness, and here...

[69:44]

It's a little more dead. Yeah, maybe that's what it is. Here it's on the surface. So then I think, well, where do you start? Open your heart, open your house? I mean, what do you do? Where are you now? Here. I'm on my way back home. But when you start depends where you are, and where you are going. Well, it still makes sense, I'm on my way back home. That we all are. When we leave the body, we go back home. But... Part of why I ask that question is, I've heard of a story where the... like the yogi sits on top of a mountain and meditates, but if he doesn't come down and mingle with the people, he does not see where he is still attached to ego. That's why I'm wondering... That's a good test, that is true. Where, like... It's a good test. Yeah, like, isn't it... It is important to interact with people just to see one's attachments. You are well down, deep down. And then the surface... Play this later, that's why you can enjoy it,

[70:47]

because it is always changing, it's not real enough. Nothing is real enough. Here there's such a body culture. You are not the body. That you can reason with. The scientists say the body changes every seven years. Completely renew the self. Ah. The mind is more difficult, but that changes very often. You change your mind and... The man is tired, really. But there's something that does not change. Who awares the changes? It's that which does not change, and that's what the notion is. Seek, find, experience that which does not change. That is our self, that is the self. And that awareness can be there in the depth. In the depth that awareness is there. Then you can enjoy it. Not as a reality, but as a play. Ever-changing. The beautiful differences. They're not too alike. But you know, aware.

[71:52]

We are one, deep down we are all one. Your self and my self are identical. You may not know it. Identical knowing. I don't like the word knowing because it's so mental. Awareness is experience. Awareness. And also this new word I have, intuitive our perception. That's all you need. That's what I feel it may be in my childhood that... No mind. Developed to be in trouble and not analyzing. Direct perception. Intuitive. Ah. So you said that... Your self and my self are identical. Yes. Okay. As a child, I knew this. And... But what I... What was painful was that others didn't know this. And I would get hurt if someone would walk down the street

[72:54]

and they wouldn't smile. There wasn't hello. Or they were aloof or whatever. And... You must have... Yes. So what I had to do was see that they were imprisoned in ego and judgments and they couldn't experience their self in me. That's why in my childhood I never went out to other people. Yeah. And I did. I mean, I was trying always to break through. Like even here. There's someone here who never smiles. Never sort of says hello and acknowledges. And a part of me was just... Not hurt, but I'm aware of it. And then I realized, well, this person is not aware that... That we are one. He is me. Of course not. How very few are that. I see. Because you are aware. Stay in that awareness and don't try to get across. Yeah. There is also this... You want to be... One ought not to be loved too much.

[73:55]

The thing is when I realized that one relationship, it is all our love that matters, not other people. It's our... Our love. Our radiance. Our... What I call affective awareness. And not... I never... I didn't... I got all the love I need in childhood, but no expression of it, nothing really. And so also. And I remember... Blake, he has that phrase. Never try to tell your love. Love that never told can be. But a gentle wind goes silently, invisibly. I told my love. I told my love. I told her all my heart. And she frightened of it now. In ghastly fear. Silently, invisibly. She did the part.

[74:56]

And after she had gone from me, a traveler passed by. Silently, invisibly. He took her with a sigh. That's Blake. Never try to tell your love. And that I never tried. I could not even say I love you to certain woman that I did. But it is love, the whole word love. It was misunderstood. If she does not... In that relationship, knew it already and was aware of it. You want to be loved. You want to be noticed and to be... And since, apropos to the paradox of that, if one does say I love you... This can be true. If one acknowledges love, that one loves and is not attached to them having to love back. In other words, if I'm prepared for the rejection... It is unconditional love that matters.

[76:01]

If they leave if I say I love you, then that's their problem. But I want to have the freedom to be able to say I love you as well. Well, you can say that but... And not to have to, but to be able to if it's spontaneous. You can say that to yourself. And they are myself. Yes, that is true. But they don't know it and they would respond differently. Then those who do will embrace. If my friend didn't know that already, I mean, not only know but was aware of that. The very first assertion is false. And if I said no, she would misunderstand. If I said yes, she would misunderstand. So I kept... Yes, she never got... Oh, Alfred, do you love me? Do you love me? That's so nice. Do you want to be loved? But I kept mum.

[77:04]

If I said yes, she would misunderstand. If I said no, she would misunderstand. But she was a mature woman, one of the most mature women in the West. So it comes back to saying yes and no. Yes, or say nothing. Or say woo. Yes. That's a Japanese word. In Chinese, moo. That's not another word. What nationality? Japanese? No, I read a book, the author was Edward de Bono, and he pointed to the word hoe, and he said no. Ah. That may be. Yes, I've seen just one or twice, yes. So there is a koan, it's the Buddha nature in a dog.

[78:19]

That answer is woo. The nature in a dog. In a dog. A dog. It's the Buddha nature in a dog. Woo. Yes, that was my woody. He likes to run around the house. He's very playful. Yes. Can you say more about why yes and no immediately is the right answer to is the Buddha nature in a dog? Immediately? But he destroyed it. There are many of these koans. At the time I read about it in literature, and I some of the koans I got before I got the substitution after. But it's the Buddha nature in a dog, so the dog answers woo. Also. The dog answers. Of course.

[79:20]

Answers. But my friend Woody, he's still here, but he came 120 miles to be with me for 10 years. Of course, he's in dog form. And he stood up on his hind legs and said namaskar. Went to spot butchers and bakers and cobblers and paramtri. And when he said paramtri, he became speaking. So he was more favored than I. He was more popular. I was a dog sadhu. And Ananda, my own holy mother-in-law in India, she said several times, Chow Choo Woody is not a dog. His first name was Chow Choo. He gave that name. And then he said woo, woo, woo. And so he became Woody. You once talked of a koan that had to do with raising a chicken or something in a bottle.

[80:27]

What was that? A chicken was put in a duckling. It's a small duckling put into a bottle, fed in there. And then it got too big. It couldn't get out. So the koan is how to get it out of the bottle without breaking the bottle. What is the response to it? The answer is, it is out. It is out. It's gone out. Yes, because of the nonsense of all this. Oh, the what? It is out. The duckling is out. The act of accepting of it out? These koans are not, there's no answer to them. You need to develop intuition.

[81:28]

So there's no real answer to that. It becomes an experience, really. Until you see the duck is out. Because it's all nonsense. You can say that. What about if someone is, a person is devoured by the group? How can they get out? How are they devoured? They don't know about themselves. How can they be devoured? So the only way for them to get out, you can also say, you are out. You were never in there. Right. Yes. Right. Ultimate, that's right. Yes. And that is the waking up to awareness. We are enlightened. The Convocation, you're being enlightened. And I never start with enlightenment. I don't know if I am or not. You said I am.

[82:30]

So you must be enlightened yourself in order to recognize it. Well, then what is the difference? What is the difference between you and us? Between you and us? What is the difference between you and us, then? Why are we? There's really no difference at all. Even for yourself. We are one. OK. There's no... There's no real division. On the surface, we are a different mask. Persona mask. Persona is a mask. And we are all masks in that sense. Ego is a mask. But we are sitting here looking at you with interest. And what is the difference? You are me. You are I. What is different between us? We are a different face. We are different... This is the psychosomatic apparatus. There are two or three new words coming to Udi dictionary. That is psychosomatic apparatus. And then unicity, in other words. Unicity. Ultimately, then, really, there is no such thing as any kind of obstruction.

[83:40]

Neither activity... Not really. How could there be? I've wakened to aware of that. So that's a... And no obstruction. Ego and imaginary sort of things. What I found interesting in when people would go to a guru, it's almost like they were fixated only on their own. Only on the guru. Of course. And they were blind to the people around them. They were not aware that the people around them are also the guru. That we are all the guru. Yes, but that's especially guru. The self can take the form of a guru. That's why in India the notion is the guru, God and self are the same. The real guru is always yourself within. An external guru can only direct to there in the end.

[84:42]

But in guru you must have a guru. When Ramana Maharshi was asked, you didn't have a guru, oh yes, everybody has a guru. Who was your guru? Myself. And that is the real. He had no external guru. Anandamayi had no external guru. Well, Nisargadatta came through in the Indian way, through a guru. But that was the self in that form, takes the form of the guru. And in this case he told him, you are divine. That is an absolute truth. Let's put a quaker's head to God in every man. And he stood with that, I am, I am. He had his work to do in his spare time, I am, for three years. Then it became a reality to him. And that led right to his death. For 40 years he was among us. And he, in his case, in the slum of Bombay, they offered him ashrams and halls to speak, no. And he was not to be known in the West. There are many, not great number, not millions, but there are many in India,

[85:47]

have that experience, be quiet. They would not have known. Nisargadatta would not have been known if Maurice Friedman had gotten his tape record, his translation of the book, I am that, and got it published. Nisargadatta let it happen. But that's the tendency with these Advaita fellows. There are no ashram ramana, there are no teaching as such, no guru pretends to be a guru and jailor. There are no books written, there are no attempt to be known. Let things happen. Ramana Maharshi would not have been known if Paul Brunton had not written the book, Search and Seek of India. And there are many like that in India. But they don't become known, they don't want to be known. Let things happen. And that is the tendency of the Arhats in contrast to the Bodhisattva. It's nearly 9.30. This is the latest we have ever gone on.

[86:48]

Really, we should have a couple more questions. Time is over, we should have one or two more questions. If Mooji gets playful and knocks things down, do you punish him? He doesn't knock things down, he lets them fall. Yes, he is playful, he has a sense of humour. The part of a person who wants someone to understand, who needs someone to understand, or who tries to have someone to understand, is that what part of a person wants someone to?

[87:50]

It is simply a person, an ego, a mask, persona mask. So if I feel that someone is not embracing my greater self, his greater self, there is a wall. How do you need to embrace the greater self? Awareness of which I am aware. You need not embrace it and crush it. If someone is blind to who they are... We all are. We nearly all are blind to who we are, yes. Yes, so it's just that acceptance of that. Oh, yes. Rather than... It's almost like watching them buried in some kind of coffin. See, I know I don't exist to some people.

[88:51]

I, the universe, the I, the self, capital self, does not exist. I meet people, some people it's instant communion. Other people, there's a wall, and I do not exist to them. Of course, but it's always the ego. How can it exist to them if they don't know themselves? Right. Okay, so I have to just acknowledge that in this time in history that the lack of communication will always be. Among egos, yes. But when you get beyond ego consciousness, there is intuitive correspondence all the time. So I think I'm sort of vacillating between... It's almost like I can hear their minds. I can read their minds chattering. That's not very pleasant, yes, yes. Yeah, and all right.

[89:52]

Can you read the mind sometimes chattering? Oh, no. What? I don't read the mind. I may feel the noise. All right, so you just tune it out? I'm not, yes, I can have a noise without attending to it. Without attending to it? Yes. Okay, that's what I have to just accept, an acceptance of what is. Accept what is that comes to, and what you are, and what everybody else are. Even if they aren't, even if they don't know that they are. Oh, yes, they don't know, and they can't know. Or else it's willfulness on my part to want them to know that they are. Yes. Okay, I'm not going to try and communicate with you anymore. You can be yourself, and then get that right. That's what Ramana Maharshi, he didn't try. That was a paradox, because I just did by doing that.

[90:55]

And he, see, that's also different, because Ratni says, Ramana Maharshi is useless. He's useless to him, you cannot use him. But you ought to respect him as a master, and set him up like a star. But he don't make bridges. Ratni and Krishnamurti, they make bridges. And many do that. But it's a karma. That's the Bodhisattva. Bodhisattva, they go up and preach this. They will not renounce, they will not go into the final state of salvation until everybody, and it takes a long time for everybody to get there. So my notion is, get that experience, get in that state of consciousness, what I call grace awareness, and see what happens. And Ramana Maharshi, he didn't try. These others, they do not try to get across. They just are, and radiate from that point of view. And also Buddha says, don't give your love, you may lose it.

[92:00]

But radiate it. Because when people build the bridges, for the egos to get across. And so then they fixate on the guru, and they often forget who they are. Well, they become the guru. They become one with the guru. That's where they surrender completely to the guru. And then they're locked in another group. Well, that depends what the guru is, the quality of the guru. Right. We really must conclude unless there is another question, because we have one more at all. And then we have several minutes of silence, which Sheena advises is more important than all our questions. Ramana Maharshi said, silence is the language of the real. The real reality. Just one, yes.

[93:06]

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