Brother David started out as a psychologist, I believe. Is that right? And I guess born in Vienna or born in Vienna itself. I knew his mother. She was great. And then at some point, you didn't become a monk until you moved to America. Is that right? And I wasn't kidding when I said, I think he may have more monastic, varied monastic experience than anyone in human history. It proves how easy it is to be unique. To just be in the right place at the right time.

[01:09]

So I would like it anyway if you could tell us something about your... your universal and varied experience of monasticism. There is a very strange sound where I am sitting. It's only for me. Okay. Yeah, you're getting that. It's the architecture. Would you like me to speak in English? That's up to everyone here. Whichever is easier for you because I have my professional right beside me. That's what I was wondering too. Speaking German. I'm speaking to you, but it's easy, I think, for... He can whisper to me.

[02:12]

I'm used to being in the midst of... And I will try to translate loud. We also, I'm sorry for all this organizational stuff, but English, everybody speaks English or German? Okay. Who would prefer, wer würde es vorziehen, wenn ich auf Deutsch spreche?

[03:19]

We're in Germany. So who would prefer to ask you? Excuse me. Let's talk in German. Okay. Also, das Wichtigste scheint mir, dass die Praxis für Laien und für Mönche grundsätzlich ist, So what is most important to me, or seems to be most important, is that basically practice of monastic people and of lay people is basically the same. It's basically the same. The same. im Augenblick leben, im Jetzt leben.

[04:22]

But what matters is to practice mindfulness and to live in the moment, in the now. Und das bringt dann schon alles, worüber Becker-Rosche im ersten Teil hier gesprochen hat, Verwirklicht es, wenn wir im Jetzt leben. And all the things Baker Roshi talked about in the first part is realized if we are, or is brought about if we are living in the now, in the present. Would you agree? No. Würdest du dem zustimmen? Nein, natürlich. You're trying to make me a heretic. Versuchst du mich in einen Heretiker zu verwandeln? No. Warum gibt es dann Klöster?

[05:29]

Buddhistische und christliche Klöster. So if this is the case, why are there Buddhist and Christian monasteries? And why is it important to have these institutions, these monasteries? Now I have to restart from another perspective, from the moment we are living now in the history of the world. Und das kann man vielleicht in einem Satz zusammenfassen, zu dem wir wahrscheinlich alle zustimmen können.

[06:30]

And I think we could summarize that in a way everybody of us could agree. So geht es nicht weiter. It's impossible to go along this way. The way the world is now. We can't go on that. Also so können wir nicht weitermachen. Und warum nicht? And why? Why not? Weil die Weltordnung, die vorherrschende Weltordnung aus dem And the reason is because the order of the world originates from the wrong self. Not from our self, but from our ego.

[07:33]

So in these moments when we are really ourself, when we can say something like myself, not in the sense of the ego, but the feeling of the real self, In these moments, we leave our connection or our belonging to everything and all. Muss ich das weiter ausführen oder wissen wir, das wäre sehr einfach, wenn wir einfach sagen, ja, wir verstehen das. So do we have to expand more on that or can we agree, well, that's something we agree on, everybody agrees on and we understand.

[08:50]

Wir wissen, worum es geht. So all of us know what is this about. From this experience of all belonging originates in all of the world which expresses this all belonging. Excuse me, is there a term you are using for? Yeah, for this, okay. Und ich würde drei And to simplify matters, I would like to name three characteristics of this world order.

[09:55]

an eure Erfahrung und wenn ihr nicht sagen könnt, ja, ja, so ist es, dann müssen wir weiter darüber sprechen. And I'm calling for your experience, the experience you have, whether this is true for you or not. And if you don't share this experience, we have to start to think about it and to talk about it more deeply. But basically, I trust your experience and that you share this experience. And the first characteristic is that when we experience this all belongingness that we We have reverence for each and everybody, for our environment, but in fact there is not such a thing as an environment, because we are sharing the environment, we are part of the environment.

[11:33]

So, for the whole. And that is the clear contrast to the world order, And this is in a clear opposition to the order of the world which we created and which is dominant in present day. Because in this order of the world the dominant The dominant characteristic is fear. So a small self is anxious, is afraid. It is terrified. Unser Selbst kommt eher vor allem, weil es And our self can experience and have reference because there is only self, there is only one self.

[12:46]

Do we have to follow this idea or is it clear that all of us, we all have only one self? In Buddhism you call this Buddha nature. In Christianity you call this the Christ in us. Or the cosmic Christ. And it's in all humans, but also in all plants and in all animals, it's in everything. So that is the first part of the opposites. So this is the first pair of, this first opposite pair, pair of oppositions.

[14:01]

Angst und Ehrfurcht. So reverence on the one side and fear on the other side. Das zweite ist, aus diesem All-Eins-Gewusstsein fließt eine Bereitschaft zu teilen. So the second thing from this experience of all belonging originates or emanates the readiness to share. So and that goes without thinking about it and without having to make a decision about it. The decision is not about whether you do it, it's about how to do it. So the decision is not about whether you do it, it's about how to do it.

[15:04]

So the decision is not about whether you do it, it's about how to do it. So that's similar to parents who have children, and when they have something to eat, it's natural for them to share the food with the children. They don't have to make the decision whether they do it, but they have to decide how they are going to do it. And again, this is in clear opposite towards the order of the world we have created and we are living it in. Denn dort herrscht Neid und Geiz. Because in this order of the world there is envy and greed. Besitz.

[16:06]

Besitz ist das Richtige. So, possession. To have things, to possess things, that's the most important thing. Und ein drittes, was aus diesem... And the third thing that emanates from this consciousness or this experience of all belonging, all one, is the opposite to defending yourself. You said we will switch. So defense, this opposite is defense. So we have these three pairs. The first pair is fear. So I don't know the right German word for that, but the negative term would be defense and the positive term would be something like defense.

[17:16]

in coming to terms with one another or to understand, no, coming to an understanding. Coming to an understanding. To negotiate. Instead of defending. So the world we know and in which we live is shaped by fear, envy and jealousy and So the world order we are living in is characterized by these three, fear, greed, and defense. Yes. That is why it is so important that there are monasteries, because a revolutionary world order is lived there.

[18:37]

And that's the reason why it is so important to have cloisters, to have monasteries, because in these institutions, a new and revolutionary form of living is experienced and lived. I love how you call it revolutionary. It's really radical, you know. It's really radical. It's really radical. So I once was with a meeting with the Dalai Lama and it was also a similar group, maybe a little bit bigger, but basically the same size. And all people in this group, they asked the predictable and usual questions which are asked in these circumstances.

[19:46]

So it became boring. And suddenly he became very lively and jumped up and said, yes, revolution, revolution. And during this entire meeting, which lasted two days, he kept coming back to this term revolution. But what we really need is a non-violent... revolution. That's what monks are. Nonviolent revolution.

[20:46]

In a certain sense, this is each and everybody of us. But we are somehow lost and dispersed because we are under the spell of this system of power. We are dispersed, we are individuals, not connected. And in a monastic community, which you then belong to, you can see that, experience that. So this conquest I was talking about.

[21:51]

And that refers to the three major areas of ecology, economy, Okay, and there are three main topics that this is referring to. That's economy, that's first you said ecology, economy, and ecumenism. And this syllable oi comes from the Greek term oikos, which means the house. And these are the main topics which are a challenge. So in a certain way, that's hard to translate, This monastery, it is a small-scale world ecology.

[22:59]

It's a household ecology. Sorry, I don't know. Household. Household. Household. And there you should, in the ideal case, naturally, we are talking here about an ideal, but in the ideal case, you should in a monastery and I experienced that in Buddhist monasteries, in Ashrams, in Catholic monasteries. And the ideal case would be that you enter into a monastery, and that's something I experienced in different monasteries I entered, which were in a Buddhist monastery, Christian monasteries, and also ashrams. And in the ideal case, when entering a monastery, you should experience that this is quite a different relationship towards your environment, to the environment you are sharing.

[24:15]

So it's quite a different kind of ecology, but it's also a different kind of economy. So it's a different economy in the sense of it's an economy of sharing, not an economy of hoarding, of collecting, of getting things together and to be greedy. And this should also result in ecumene. And this is also something that really happens because monastics of different traditions, they understand each other.

[25:30]

And for instance, Thich Nhat Hanh told me In Korea, we feel much closer to the Catholic monks than to the Buddhists who don't build monks. So in Korea, we are faith more closely, closer to the Catholic monks than to the Buddhist lay population. In Vietnam. In Vietnam, not in Korea, in Vietnam. In Vietnam. And that's also something I experienced, that I felt a closer relationship to Buddhist monks than to people who didn't practice a monastic tradition. So, but it's a pity that it's placed that religious tradition are somehow existing by defending themselves against other religions.

[26:46]

So that was my approach. But Brother Thomas has been living in the Benedictine monastery for two decades. Maybe he wants to say something about that. So actually, I'm part of a different monastery. It's a monastery in the United States. So we are both Benedictines, and what I can say is that his monastery really is living that, and that's very beautiful.

[28:15]

So my view, the sense of monastic living, life, it's living in relationship. With others and with everything? With others and with everything. Now, when you go to a monastery and you said the monks are the revolutionaries, how many monasteries do you really feel the monks are revolutionaries and how many are killed by monastic life or by... So when you go to a monastery, what is your feeling? How many monasteries are really populated by revolutionary monks or how many do you feel that they are actually killed by monastic life? I give them the benefit of the doubt.

[29:42]

In doubt for the accused. But that spiritual life is revolutionary in our world and that nothing is more important than breaking this world order, the power order, But it's a basic fact that nothing is more important to live this spiritual life and to break the power of this dominant order of the world. It's a way of stepping out of your culture. That structure exists. But in America they have, you know, sometimes televisions and cell phones in the cells and, you know, etc. Not just Catholic, also Buddhist. But in America, they sometimes have not only mobile phones, but also satellite television in the Western cells.

[30:53]

And that exists. Not only in Catholic... Cell phone or cell phone, at least. Eine Zelle ohne Mobiltelefon, das ist ja nicht vorstellbar. Man muss doch in Verbindung bleiben. And then there's Facebook and there's Monkbook. Es gibt Facebook und es gibt Mönchsbuch. The trouble with Facebook is they commodify your identity. Das Blöde an Facebook ist, dass deine Identität zu einer Ware gemacht wird. But the big danger for all of us is that we either don't see how much we are shaped by this power system. So the big danger is that we don't even see how... strongly we are not only affected by but are constituted by this power system and this structure.

[32:01]

Only to give a trifle example of that. Ich nehme an, wir sind alle Menschen, denen es um das geht, wovon wir jetzt hier sprechen, persönlich. So, I assume that all of us are people who are really a deep concern about what I have been talking about before. Und doch... Still, yeah, nevertheless. When I say, and let's stay for a moment in the area of economy. A business should... So an enterprise must shoot beyond by everybody who is working for this enterprise.

[33:08]

For most of us, this is a revolutionary idea. Maybe we didn't have this idea before, for the first time. And still it's a common sense. And naturally this revolution we are talking about is not something Buddhist, it is not something Christian, it is nothing Hinduistic. It is only common sense. And unfortunately common sense is ill. It's not common anymore. It's not common to senses anymore. It's common to others.

[34:10]

There are common senses in German. Unfortunately it's not in German. English used to mean... an experience common to all the senses, and it became common to others. So it should mean basically something like something we share. and something which each of us experience in the same way. Unfortunately, when you say something like common sense, it's interpreted as the dominant opinion.

[35:13]

And that's something we have to revolutionize from inside. When I was at this meeting, yes, when I was at this meeting with the so-called pioneers, one of them was Anne Klein, whose book I've given away to many people. It's something of a bliss queen is the name of it. Anyway, half the book is on feminism, but the other half is the best scholarly description of mindfulness that I know.

[36:31]

Yeah, and also John Cabot Zinn was there. What's happening? Sorry. It's all right. Everybody's so kind. Sorry, the last sentence. This is my... John Kabat-Zinn was there, who I had never really met before. No, surprisingly, we had a lot of mutual respect for each other. And he's a neurobiologist or neuroscientist whose father also was a neuroscientist. And he's the person who's made the practice of mindfulness

[37:54]

available to everybody in a way that is not only tied to Buddhism. I think he's based at Harvard. But he's trained thousands of people in mindfulness techniques. So this is an example of a word from the Eightfold Path. as also is right widely written, which have gone into the culture and taken a life of their own. I don't think there's a Western therapist anymore who doesn't sometimes speak about mindfulness. But I wonder, in Catholic monasticism,

[39:01]

how have these ideas of mindfulness, as a Buddhist practice, have they influenced Manassas? Or are there similar traditions which are going on as they have for centuries? Und mich würde interessieren, ob in der christlichen Klösterlichkeit diese Idee von Achtsamkeit vom Buddhismus übernommen worden ist und wie es die Klösterlichkeit beeinflusst hat. Oder ist das überhaupt eine Idee, die bereits seit langem besteht und die eine jahrhundertelange Geschichte hat in der christlichen Klösterlichkeit? Sie besteht schon von Anfang an, aber durch die Begegnung mit dem Testament wurde sie erneuert. That's something which exists within Christian monasticism from the very beginning, but through the contact with Buddhism, it was revigorated and renewed, and also ensigned in a certain way.

[40:39]

When you... Refilled. So the first is the prayer in silence. That's something we have for a very long time. And this also took on Buddhist forms in Christian monasteries. And that's something which is quite impressive. Brother David and I drove across the United States. some years ago.

[41:41]

I was hoping we'd do it every year, but it happened once. And one Sunday I was driving rather fast. And his religious observance was that he hoped the Irish policemen were at church. And I hope they also were at church. Any case, Every monastery we stopped in, as I mentioned last night, except one recently uncoistered nunnery, Recently. Had people doing meditation, as you said, had Zafus, and even some had Suzuki Roshi's book up, you know, at the back, so you can see the picture.

[42:45]

No, no, I didn't want to. I'll just finish what I'm going to say. Or start something new. The word mindfulness... with the English word mind, which is different than German geist, etc., as we know. And the word mind covers different territory than the Sanskrit and Pali words. And as a word in English, It's taken on a life of its own somewhat different than Buddhism.

[44:26]

And it's also stimulated a an emphasis on mindfulness, which is somewhat new in Buddhism. dynamic of mindfulness is not simply to give attention to things but to give attention to attention itself and the development of attention through attention to attention der Achtsamkeit durch die Achtsamkeit zur Achtsamkeit hin, transformiert die Form, wie du Achtsamkeit schenkst.

[45:31]

Und die gewöhnliche Übersetzung von Achtsamkeit, der fehlt diese Dimension. And that's the second form I was pointing at in the Christian tradition. Not only from time to time this prayer of silence, jeden Augenblick Achtsamkeit durch Dankbarkeit. Each moment mindfulness by gratefulness. Dankbarkeit bringt uns immer in den gegebenen Augenblick

[46:35]

And gratefulness has the effect that it returns us into this very moment, because you can only be grateful at this moment. And therefore to ourselves. Each time when we are grateful, In each moment, we are somehow shifting our emphasis or our gravity, our center of gravity from this I, from this equal to the same. the big self. Now, would you say with the prayer of silence, is this silent prayer, or prayer within silence, or is it prayer through silence? CS Lewis puts it this way.

[47:58]

So we can let sink our mind deeper and deeper in this silence and never will we hear an echo. It's something like that. Also, this is a bit like Salsa. Okay, now, if you guys are actually, guys, I mean, guys, monks, if you two are actually leaving at one o'clock, though I wish I had the power to keep you here for the whole seminar, but one of the One of the fundamental ideas of suffering in Buddhism is whether you like it or not, you always live within a kind of separation.

[49:21]

And a kind of powerlessness to not keep Brother David and Brother Thomas here. But anyway, so you can still have much. Yeah, I've heard of this. I think it's the ninth in the last line. At the very end. What we live in are constantly saying farewell. Yes. But let me read.

[50:33]

So the main phrase for our revolution. Don't be afraid. Okay. So really to live that, to live this phrase. Christine? I like this idea of nonviolent radiation. And it's very inspiring to hear from this alternative world of monasticism. And I think by the teaching which entered the world or the everyday life since the last 60 years, you can already see kind of signs or remanent tracks of this alternative way of living.

[52:01]

For me, it's me. I think it is important that we are aware that in our practice at the moment we can set small revolutionary acts. We cannot set small truces, but we can decide at the moment, for example against Gier or against May, we can set very small revolutionary acts. And what is important for me is that in our everyday life we can carry out small revolutionary acts by being in the moment and by deciding in the moment against greed, against fear and so on. And for myself that's a kind of bridge between individual action and society action. And this can be a practice of Sangha.

[53:02]

Act locally, think globally. I think you can apply this also in these instances. You make... So to make this small act and at the same time to know that the entire order, the entire system and order of power has to be changed. Yes. Yes. And Brother Thomas, do you have anything you'd like to say before we leave, before you leave? Will I see you again? I think both of us want to thank you very much for letting us come and letting us share with you, meeting the wonderful group here.

[54:14]

Thank you very much.

[54:15]

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