Well, having discussion in the morning, at least it starts out a lot noisier than usual discussion. But once you got settled, it was much quieter than usual. So I would like, of course, naturally to hear something about your discussions of who will be second. Who will be third? I was first.

[01:24]

Yeah, we miss Gerhard. You miss Gerhard? Thank you. I'm beginning with what we found out at the end. In response to your question about the three main I'll call it principles that influence our help along therapeutic work. So there were three, but then really, in the end, four.

[02:57]

So the practice of holding the space of awareness through intention. The taking refuge in this locating oneself in breath and posture. No, breath in body. That means this upright position. Also this experiencing of the ground, the floor.

[04:13]

Or this experiencing, perceiving oneself in movement. And then in addition to that, so to speak, would be to do that from moment to moment. ... And we also all agreed that it all ends up as a handing oneself over and trusting in trusting in not knowing.

[05:30]

Okay? And then we also talked about many other things. What we talked about What was important for me in this conversation? Yesterday we talked about how Buddhist practice reaches further than therapeutic work. Because it's about solving the big problem.

[06:34]

And that means the whole of the life and the whole of the life is at stake. And a different degree of intention, intentionallessness. I don't know. Ravi, what would you say? No, it's not gold, really. It's probably horses. I can't think of any word. I don't know a word, but in German, I think the dynamic is that we have a word for not pursuing goals, and it's linked to the word that we use to translate intention, and it means to not pursue intentions, which really is to not pursue... Intention-free intentions.

[07:57]

Yeah. A freedom from... Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I imagine that this also has to do with this uncorrected mind. Okay. And in psychotherapy, clients come to us at least in the foreground to solve some problems. But in order to make that possible, we also have to have to sort of say goodbye to wanting to solve problems.

[09:06]

And then in that sense it's like an invitation to the therapist but also to the client. to hold this space where things are allowed to be the way they are. In that sense it's a kind of... seduce, seduction, seducing to a seduction to practice. Toward practice. Okay, I understand. Thank you. And maybe others can also help and It's interesting that we ended up with similar terms but in a different sequence.

[11:07]

So the ground or the framework for therapy has a lot to do with practice, although we didn't talk about practice. And the main concepts were giving an allowance for this permission for the therapeutic process. And then from that we talked about the art of giving an invitation. To create a safe container in order to create trust.

[12:21]

That this is something that's derived from Buddhist practice. And that allows these conscious processes. Or do you, what do you mind? Christian? We're in the same group, so I'll continue. The example that comes to mind What flows clearly from our Zazen practice into this therapeutic space?

[13:22]

I would call that this... a giving of space and an element of giving space or giving permission? The space where beliefs that create and condition certain patterns, surface or appear. These beliefs cling also to emotion,

[14:24]

And because this space that now is available, they are faced, sometimes for the first time, for what they are in this space. And then they're honored in the unfolding of this process. So that they can be in a process of transformation, changed into new. believes and the second element we talked about so this is about feelings or emotions that we know from our own

[15:49]

practice that come and touches again. This is about how to translate feeling but she wants to say emotion. So in relationship to our clients and how we deal with them We noticed that this possibility that becomes available through trauma work, that what's really used there is the observer. That you introduce a practice that people learn to work with on their own. Like what practice would you introduce?

[17:30]

This is the technical term for it is the observer method or something like that. It's like creating a distance to the emotion. In noticing a feeling or emotion, you can always say, oh, there is also someone who notices this. For clients who are overwhelmed by their emotions, this is a very helpful technique. Thank you. I can say something.

[20:06]

Nobody else? Please. I've never had to wait so long for people to speak, but I'm happy. This is not a report from my group, but since nobody from my group has reported so far, I just wanted to say that yesterday's concentration what fascinated me is that beneath the family scene But it was about death, which wasn't looked at. And I was lucky enough to represent death.

[21:07]

I noticed that in Buddhist teaching it's about looking at death from moment to moment. But in this constellation, death was represented as a person, or death was also a kind of entity, or was crystallized in a right way? And that according to this particular method, maybe it has to be that way. But that in the processes that happen when death is taken into one's view in that way, one can see how such micro-momentary movements are possible for these other representatives.

[22:32]

one can observe that for the other representatives, it becomes possible to engage in some kind of micro-momentary movements. To let go of... fixated postures, or postures that have become stiff or something. Thanks. Yes. Mm-hmm. So we talked a lot about how practice can flow into therapy. And since I don't work as a therapist, I'm also interested in the other direction.

[23:57]

How therapy can open spaces within practice. And maybe that's obvious, but I say it anyway. Roshi often explains discursive thinking as a thinking that's related to the self. And when there's insecurity, some sort of insecurity, then it's very difficult to let go of discursive thinking. In that sense, therapy is a method where I can gain more trust in myself. where my insecurities have more space, where I gain more space around my insecurities, that's more what I mean, that I notice that this process of maturing

[25:26]

But this also deeply nourishes my practice. And in some sense also makes the practice possible. OK, thanks. Yes. This is not something we discussed in the room. It's something that now appeared while listening. Yes. that when I work with people, that I feel that in working with people, I could be part of this situation, or that it's just a variation of my own

[26:51]

all these behaviors that my clients display or engaged in and so as a consultant or a coach I go to some kind of meta-level with my tools. And that's what I'm offering to my clients. And practice is another meta-level to that. Therapy is some way of leaving this entanglement and practice is another level of doing that, another removing oneself from the entanglement.

[28:01]

Okay, thanks. Continuing what Nicole said, I'm also thinking about discursive thinking and the psychological hindrances, obstructions within that. So it becomes I am getting this feeling and it becomes clearer through that that this is related to a certain kind of fear

[29:05]

That this discursive thinking somehow always comes in front. Yesterday I now remember you also talked about there is some things are unresolved and that is also okay, they can remain unresolved. And I'm really insecure in relationship to that, myself, about this unresolved.

[30:29]

So the way I'm dealing with that is that with some sense of directedness, I'm actually going there also through therapy. Because the discursive thinking drives me toward it. This tension, this unresolved can't stay that way. Let me say something about the seminar.

[31:30]

Of course it's structured. The structure of the seminar is that I'm here expected to say something. And you have the experience, I guess, of my seeming to be able to fill space with speaking. Yeah. But at the same time, I'm a guest here. I come across the planet. Some of you come from a distance, too. And in addition to the seminar being structured so that I'm expected to say something, the deeper permission I have to speak comes from you.

[32:54]

And if I can't hear each of your voices, I feel like not speaking. If you're not willing to speak, why should I be willing to speak? I mean, I'll find something to say, but it'll be different than if I hear you speaking. Okay, how's that for an admonition? Yes, ah, it worked. I want to say something from the client's side also.

[33:56]

from a client side who is a practitioner in a way. It would be inconceivable to see a therapist Is he not a practitioner in any way? A practitioner of Zen or a practitioner of therapy? Because In a way, I also get the permission to decondition myself from moment to moment. Maybe this is also what a Sangha does. maybe there are some additional ingredients that are helpful, very helpful.

[35:25]

And so I'm very thankful that there are therapists who have That is why I am very grateful that there are therapists who also have a sending practice. One of the things we talked about in our group was the significance of mindfulness. And how important is the therapeutic relationship to be in that mind field? That through being in the mind field, in the moment, other solutions come with what we learn from technique.

[36:38]

And what we found was that there were many different practices that people have. And what we found is that people have different techniques to support this mindfulness. Some related to the breath, but other ways to go inside the mind and space. Being in that mindful space and the mindfulness practice will not necessarily lead to, if the practice does it, negatively. Something else that was important was that the teaching cannot take place from reading about. That there is a physical element to it that must be experienced.

[38:03]

That there can't be anybody reading around. Mm-hmm. Okay. Thanks. I want to add something that was part of our group discussion and also personal relevance. Besides this question of what supports our therapeutic work from Buddhism, you also asked what stuck with us from this seminar discussion.

[39:04]

and for several in our group and also for me that was appearance only it seems to me that this has something that this is something simple and is very familiar on the one hand And on the other hand this touches or connects with myself in the way I know koans. It's like an internal itching. where I'm noticing really I'm not understanding anything.

[40:24]

If we stick with this image of incubation, this is something like the building of a nest. And for me, I know this as a point where practice begins, where practice starts to be fruitful. And for me the point that's more interesting in connection with appearance only is the releasing. And some participants in our group

[41:27]

had the same feeling about releasing being so important, and I was moved by what Hiltrud said. That she finds herself engaged with this topic of releasing and also with dying. Yeah, with dying. Maybe you can say it in a better way. It was very beautiful. To develop a gentle connection to this dying and letting go. Thank you that you said it for me.

[42:43]

Yeah. And on the one hand, I want to relate to what Christian said about entity, death, and momentariness in yesterday's constellation. Because in our group we also talked about this aspect of becoming rigid, rigidity.

[43:52]

This melting down of the rigidity happened through the idea of momentariness in this process. I saw the death in this personification, but also the resolving of rigidity through process, momentum. And in relationship to mindfulness practice, I want to say It's not just holding space in mindfulness or to enter a mind in that way.

[45:20]

That it can be a real tool for clients to find a way to deal with patterns that have been explored in therapy. To find a way to deal with them by continual noticing, noticing, noticing. A real mindfulness practice with it. Yes. And what I'm dealing with as a fruit of these days of speaking derived from this concept of incubation.

[46:43]

Connected with that or attached to that is the concept of duration. Okay, that I first understood incubation in terms of duration, but now that also incubation can happen within a moment. Through this space that appears that also that allows for different options.

[47:50]

Okay, thanks. Yeah. so I want to connect with what you both said about rigidity rigidity within the constellation within the individuals or within the constellation both What's alive in me since yesterday's discussion is this difference between being alive and dead within the constellation. And I've never thought about it in that way before. And since I've been thinking about constellations in the sense that there is something dead or rigid within the constellation,

[49:05]

Rituals now appear to me as a way of bringing aliveness, almost like making alive, making something alive. Rituals in constellations the way we saw it yesterday, when they have this power to connect, it's always an expression of acknowledging something the way it is. And what I'm interested in now That Buddhist practice, the way I know about it, has a lot to do with rituals. And I would be interested to understand more about the role rituals have in Buddhist practice.

[50:35]

Yeah, how relationships are being shaped through rituals in Buddhist practice. Okay. Thanks. Yes? I was only here Wednesday evening, so I only have the experience of that part end of this morning. And what I heard about appearance and what you Christians said in our small group about the four marks, that really is kind of close to me now. My strongest experience I had was the beginning this morning.

[51:51]

Maybe that's also a ritual. When we began at 9.30 and then you only appeared at 10, and my feeling was that this was a strong message. Thank you. They're coming from you to us. What was the message? How we deal with our expectations. Yeah.

[53:10]

And I want to thank you for that. Okay. You mean you expected me to be here. Yeah. Let me say that because sometimes people ask me about that. I find if I come at the beginning of the practice of period we sit, I'm too much of an ingredient in the establishment of the space. And I can't feel other people's space as much. So I like to come, you know, usually in most seminars, sort of 10 or 15 minutes before it ends.

[54:19]

That's what I usually do, and then I can feel what's happening. Enter the field I didn't establish. But here I have such a long walk to get here. I'm a little later than I would like to be. Yes, you were going to say something? I'd like to say something about the first question you posed. Not as a kind of group representative because they were, I think, very rich in different kinds of ideas. And also because I'm not a therapist. Regarding your first question, what appears to me, or what is really important to me, that

[55:30]

In the way I grew up, it's very much rooted in Western thinking of how to gain a world view. There's a theory to that, this epistemology. Epistemology? Yeah, this theory. Okay, there's a theory that this is epistemology. And what I kind of grasp is that Buddhism practice is also kind of... not a theory about how to gain insight but a practice to gain insight. And this is relevant for my professional work in the sense that I mostly work with people Who are lost with their world view.

[56:52]

No, not... They are kind of lost in their world view. They have it. Uh... So this kind of practice of how to see the world differently than I always see it may or may not sometimes have a healing effect. But it certainly has an effect in the sense that if I help an organization to better fit to its environment.

[58:06]

But it certainly has an effect when I help an organization to fit better into its environment, to fit into the environment. That is what I take with me from Buddhism. Okay. Horst, do you want to say something? Horst, du möchtest etwas sagen. Ah, nice. I am reporting in the group how this transfer works for me. For me it's always important to find similarities, sameness, what is the same and not so much the differences.

[59:21]

And that's a process that goes from the seminar into the therapy and from the therapy into the seminar and back and forth. And the example I gave is my experience in today's meditation. what happens to me not just in practice but also in everyday life this is this falling out of mindfulness into randomness and in the meditation and in meditation this announces itself when I begin to have pain and today it wasn't my knee and the transfer was And the transfer was I am a systemic family therapist.

[61:01]

The knee was the identified client. The knee or my body or part of my body told me that something is wrong in my whole system. And I'm very thankful now when I feel this pain because they tell me, oh, I should lead my life in a more mindful way. And then I start to locate myself in my breath from moment to moment, and to live moment to moment, and to experience, although my breath flowed along uniformly, regularly,

[62:17]

That in me there was no sense of being certain how long the pause between two breaths would be. And that was such a transfer when I notice how I'm locating myself in my body. This sense of randomness disappears. And the discursive blah, blah. And then pain is gone. Yeah, you learn that. You know, as I said, the most basic... instruction for zazen is to the posture and the sitting.

[63:34]

You add the concept, don't move. And that concept really has a power. And many things are discovered when you go, when you let the concept of not moving inform your beginning. Anyway, you understand? Yeah. It's funny. It's almost you, without this concept of don't move, you almost can't make zazen work or something that you wouldn't come to by thinking alone. Yeah. Let me say something. I know we should go to lunch in a minute.

[64:46]

Let me say something about world views. I would say the basic in addition to sitting in mindfulness practice, the basic process of Zen practice, is first of all to notice you have world views, and then notice how those world views affect what you do. And then in a sense to notice if all of you fit into those world views or some of you doesn't quite fit the world views. That's the first step. And the second process is seeing if there are world views, because once you see you have world views, you can imagine the possibility of other world views.

[66:00]

So the second process is discovering world views that might fit you better. And the third is taking a vow to fulfill those worldviews that fit you better. And the rest of Buddhism is maturing those worldviews. It's really that simple. You don't even have to call it Buddhism. Okay. Now... You know, for me, I hope there are dozens of you waiting to speak.

[67:15]

And I'm hoping I'm interrupting you. And I apologize. I also apologize for the tedium of your having to wait for things to be translated for me. But there's a small value in it because you hear that things are in two languages and don't really fit fully in either. You know, for me there's a kind of magic in what we do here. And a magic enhanced by how long we've been doing this together. I have nothing to say to you.

[68:42]

I only have something to say with you or through you. I'm sorry, I'm not a lecturer. I don't have anything prepared or anything to say. For me, it's only a meeting and speaking in Buddhism is only a dialogic process. And I can only speak to what you half know, at least half know already. And I can only speak of what you already know half of. Yes, I already know half of it. And that is what I have to find out. And much of it I find out by feel. And maybe yesterday I spoke a little too densely and it didn't leave space for you to speak.

[69:51]

Except for Krista and Ulrike. And a few others. Yeah, and I apologize for being so dense, if that's the case. But again, I think Christian and Nicole will attest to who hear me And I hear them too, a great deal at the time. Sorry. And what we talked about yesterday in some ways was, I mean, I feel I'm always saying something new, but yesterday was particularly new, wouldn't you say? Mm-hmm. And it was new because you're old to me.

[71:02]

Familiar to me. You know, in Tibetan Buddhism there's an image of speaking. An imaginative image. of stars kind of circling around. Stars that are sort of half sound and half thought. And they're kind of moving into sound. And into syllables and into consonants and vowels. And into words and sentences. Yeah, it's a little overly fanciful.

[72:17]

But I find there's some truth to it, or it's a useful image. And really, I mean, because I've been doing this with you, and of course my sangha I practice with too, And it happens with the winter branches group too, which is now quite cohesive over years. But so each of you are kind of like a star. And you're with me.

[73:18]

I'm sorry, it sounds so schmalzy. But you're with me during the year. And the circles and the stars circle into the possibility of discovering in the Western paradigm teaching And when I'm here with you, and of course you're individuals, individual stars, but you're also a excuse me for saying this, a sentient field of awareness and intelligence.

[74:18]

And there's a kind of purpose in the field. Or there's a potential or possibilities in the field. And the more I feel that from each of you, the more the possibility of saying something in this laboratory of practice and awareness, something forms, and I actually am a kind of vehicle for it. I just sometimes don't know what I'm saying. So I apologize if the idea was too not so good to have discussion in the morning.

[75:34]

Or if I was too dense Maybe I can promise not to be so dense this afternoon. We love your eggs. All the eggs in one basket? Okay. But I do want to say it really is about what I feel with each of you. I have nothing to say except from that feeling within that feeling so please give me as much help as you can so I can at least hear your voices so let's have lunch

[76:51]

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