Somehow I feel I'd like to think about this a little more as I study. But it's quite slippery. And it's also obvious. But I don't think it's... Obviousness makes its implications less important. But first, does somebody want to say something? Help me have a context. I was thinking that when one talks so much about this distinction between body and mind,

[01:08]

Welche Erklärungen es gibt, wie das zustande kommt? Are there any explanations or which explanations do exist why this separation comes into being or is created in this? Ja? Denn es ist ja ein... Think it is a thought phenomenon or an experience phenomenon which is common to all human beings. Gibt es irgendwelche Erklärungen aus dem Buddhismus, wie das zustande kommt? Are there any explanations from a Buddhist point of view why are distinctions drawn? Is it possible not to draw the distinction?

[02:19]

Ist es möglich, diese Unterscheidung nicht zu treffen? My personal experience is that when I started to think about that, I already drew this distinction and it's completely embodied. It became a flesh. You mean, you from childhood have drawn this distinction and lived it, or something like that? Well, I mean, of course you can observe the body as a thing.

[03:23]

You can't observe the mind as a thing. So there's already a difference. It's easy to observe the body. If you lose part of your finger in an accident, you don't think you've lost part of your mind, but you may have. And I often wonder, people who start having pig guts and plastic parts, you know, does it affect how they think and function? But the brain seems to have so much plasticity. That seems to be a root itself around problems.

[04:24]

Mm-hmm. So it may compensate for, after a while, for having a plastic aorta or something. But in any case, we can experience body and mind separately through the senses. The way we generate an observer is... Someone else. No one else?

[05:55]

Yes. And now it comes to my mind quite the opposite of what Felix said when there's a moment when this comes together or conflates. And I have very early memories when this happened. And that were enormous feelings of happiness, of joy. And this was some kind like the... the motivation to look for them.

[07:03]

Okay. Okay. But I guess Catholic religion added a lot to that by condemning the flesh and whatever happens below the belt. Yeah. Okay. What time do we end tomorrow? At noon or lunch or later in the afternoon?

[08:07]

Do we have a session after lunch? No, we end around lunchtime, one o'clock. I'm not hurrying us to the end. I am just trying to wonder how I can get to some things. So where can I start? What I want to say, I've already said, but sometimes I want to say it again or differently or something like that. Let me start with, we wake up in the morning. So we create a consciousness from concepts. And what's the source of those concepts?

[09:27]

What's the source if you practice meditation? Sit down in the morning. And And one of the interruptions in meditation practice when you sit down in the morning in a monastic type setting is that you don't get much sleep. Yeah, so you have kind of like a... start constructing your consciousness in the midst of meditation. And there's a mix of night mind and day mind.

[10:31]

And... Yeah, I don't, you know, it's funny, I feel like I'm wasting your time speaking about this. But what I want to try to speak about is the need, if the concepts which... the concepts which construct our consciousness, if they're primarily created through self-referential thinking, and if the self-referential thinking functions or locates itself in the concepts of consciousness.

[11:45]

Yeah. and not in what I was calling situated immediacy, then if the self... If the functioning self, the seeking self, is under stress, the medium of the self, which is consciousness, is also under stress. Yeah, I actually don't know right now how to... speak about that more clearly. So why don't you talk about something you'd like to and I'll try to see what I can do.

[12:51]

worry it's another topic but it came when I was joking today and I was thinking as I understood Buddhistic Buddhist As far as I understood traditional Buddhist teaching, my impression was that it was a kind of artistic practice. Now you tell me. Maybe better said autopoetic. Yeah, that sounds a little better. And the other hand, psychotherapy is more and more accepted also by the analysts.

[14:07]

that the psychotherapy is the interpersonal contact. So therapy functions. The function of therapy is what between two people exist, and not the archaeology of biography. So my question is, there are also i also can see some points of not autopoetic when you speak from the feet but i cannot understand it how to bring it together because all work 100 percent works from interpersonal, from contact, from this field, from Austausch, the exchange of values and everything.

[15:14]

So how can we bring this together? What is this? Can you say it in two short sentences? How can this and what bring it in? Buddhism theory and these interpersonal theories of psychotherapy. And how is Buddhism not interpersonal? Because the theory is very often speak about, or most of the time speak about what happens in my head. So the five skandhas are completely refer to the self or point to the self. How I conceptualize the word. The definition of consciousness.

[16:20]

It's all in you. It's not... Yeah, well, that's not the case, but... Um... Okay, I won't forget what you said. Well, someone else? Yeah. My observation is that you and also Rosenblum, Roshi, just now, I mean, both of you have emphasized this this very simple, I mean, not simple, but very basic and in a sense also simple.

[17:22]

I mean, this sounds like a truism somehow here, to just enter in the moment. And my experience is somehow The more I am able to slow down and the more I am able to be still, the more the world opens up. Okay. My feeling is that Regge Roschi and Rudolf Lund Roschi in the last few years have emphasized very strongly to point out that you just have to look into the moment. And my experience is that the calmer I am, the less calm I am and the less I do, the more the world appears. And also the word appears more satisfying.

[18:39]

Now, are you saying that you agree with Paul and I? Yes. Do you say that you agree with me? Yes. Great. Yes. But because what you said, the more you get quiet and the more you get still. And I had, during the break, I had this feeling that I wanted to, you know, this physical movement was going to enlarge life. You know, it's a kind of physical exercise. We call it to make a wheel. So it's quite a physical exercise. It has... And when I hear something like that, I have the feeling I'm completely wrong, because I also want to be wild.

[20:03]

I've noticed. Can I say something to that? Also, my experience is... As if it were a boring practice. Because when you come in, people sit around and it doesn't do much. But in my opinion it is a totally wild practice. Do you feel better now? No, I just want to say that I feel misinterpreted when you think that silence means that you don't want to. So what I said is that in my experience Zen looks from the outside if you enter a Zen door or if you enter this room. People are meditating. It looks as if people would be quite calm and still and it would not be not much going on.

[21:10]

Are you speaking or is she speaking? I tell you what I told her. Okay. And in my experience Zen is a very wild practice. So it's not, I mean, yes, I'm just, I'm there, right? Yes. So that's what I said. Okay. So I would feel misunderstood if I would mean that you have to come, I mean, you don't have to come and sit down. You don't suppress. That's my opinion. Okay. For me, when you say you want to do this physical exercise, that's right to be in the immediacy. That's just what appears in the moment. So also starting from what you said, to start in the moment is to be on one pole, on one end.

[22:26]

On the very me end. But on the other side is that I am also part of a relationship. And that... And that demands continuity and reliability and security. On the other hand, I'm also part of a social network, of a network of relationships. And this network of relationships needs and also demands that there is a certain kind of reliability and that people can...

[23:30]

And also predictability. So that people can rely on you. So when I enter into this relationship between me and you, Don't I have to somehow step back from this immediate impulse of what Sabine for instance said in order to keep this relationship with me, your relationship in a certain way stable? You mean don't you have to step back from her sense of being wild so that you can be reliable?

[24:37]

No. If I go from moment to moment... selbst der Ausdruck bin dessen, was ich jetzt gerade erlebe und alle Impulse, when I, from moment to moment, der Ausdruck bin, when I am, from moment to moment, the expression, dann habe ich als anderen Pol Then there is on the other pole of my behavior there has to be this kind of reliability and predictability of my behavior. And are these two poles where we move in between? How do you determine what's predictable or reliable?

[25:48]

For instance, when I hope that I relate to my partner as this is my partner. This I would see as permanence and reliability. And on the other hand, in here and now, he includes many other possibilities of personal choice. And to be here now would include that there are many, many possibilities to select people as partners. And in order for myself to have a reliable and fair partnership, I am somehow establishing this permanence.

[27:10]

And these are two poles because then I somehow restrict my freedom from moment to moment. Can I say something? Of course. For me there is a kind of level shift in it. So the one is my behavior. You are talking about behavior now. Yes. And he speaks about where I somehow locate my mind. And I can't bring that to one level at all. Something totally different comes to me. For me this feels like a shift between layers because this is the layer of behavior and doing something on this level and where I move my mind this for me is somehow another level so I can't bring this question

[28:41]

like together. It's just two layers. I can root my mind and still have it wherever and still have a partnership. But I think there is an important link between the two because in the construction of my consciousness this puzzle piece and my consciousness It completely evolved and is built up by this relationship between you and me and you and since childhood. And this is what is.

[29:44]

Because one piece is reliability, or that people can rely on you. Yeah. Yeah. I just wanted to say, I don't know if I heard you correctly. I don't know whether I got you right. This must not only relate to here, but also to everything which you feel connected with from moment after moment.

[30:47]

And in this sense, it is always a moment after moment, going from moment after moment, which is somehow appropriate. And to take this example of Sabine's physical exercise is that when she wouldn't be in a connection with somebody, she wouldn't have, this wouldn't have been, this desire wouldn't have been created. Or came forth, sure. That's the reason it didn't work.

[31:48]

I mean, something stupid, but it comes up. But it's somehow related to the dream, you know? Because when I'm in some kind of business meeting, you know, and this is a serious business, a business meeting somehow, but on the other hand, it's also, I mean, very ridiculous because everybody is somehow playing a game, you know? And I think to myself, Okay, what would happen if I, or for instance at university when I'm giving a lecture, what would happen if I just would undress? My, I mean. You'd have to constantly be an artist. Yeah, I mean. And you have to live in, you have to live in 68. So what would I, what do I want to point out by that? That it's, I think it's, I think Felix's question is a quite good question, because you somehow, you don't do whatever you do, and I think this means appropriateness of the situation, it doesn't work either, because there are many things that would be appropriate from a different angle in your situation, which are not appropriate.

[33:17]

For instance, I mean, you say, I think this is just a stupid business meeting. Yeah. And I think the precepts are, I think, coming here into play from my point of view. Because when you choose a partner, you say, OK, I'm taking a certain vow. And I'm taking the vow to choose this person as a partner and to treat it as a partner. OK. Yeah. In my opinion, there can be the example of faith, because, for example, reliability, or also, yes, peace. I'm trying to ask a question. When Sabrina came up with what she said, I thought of my first reading of Dürkheim's book about Zen and martial art and about that famous cat that catches every rat. Zen and martial art and what?

[34:20]

A cat that in China there's a cat in a certain Zen convent who is able to catch simply every rat and the most vicious one too. And this is compared with behavior in martial art and zen with the concentration to be quite fantastically wild, but controlled. And this came up, and I wanted to ask, there seems to be a relationship how I would react about the idea of zen is so quiet, but it can be incredibly punchy, or I don't find a word. The first time I read the book about martial arts and a very famous Chinese cat in a Chinese monastery, I read about the extreme concentration in cells, as well as in cells that shoot the bow. This incredible power that arises through the complete explanation of the person, the extreme concentration, is allowed again as an entity.

[35:27]

Yes. Yes. We experience every moment based on a form which are which came into being or developed.

[36:31]

And this form is a continuity. Our body, our history, also partnership. And this doesn't hinder us that we at any moment based on this form We can decide anew from thousands of possibilities. Thank you, and that means for me that my being connected in my relationships, or to my relationship, and being involved in, is kein Widerspruch dazu in dieser Situation.

[37:39]

is another contradiction to experience myself in this immediacy which is generated from the situation. Because part of the situation is, for example, my relationship with this partner, permanence. Sorry. Is, for instance, my precepts to live with my partner permanent? Did I understand? Yes. Okay. This is part of the immediacy which is generated in situation. Yeah. Okay. I understand. Do you want to say something? Actually it's something to reinforce and to add to what was said already. Yes, that came up in my mind in addition to what you said about this ridiculous business meeting.

[39:02]

For me there is the moment when I realize that actually the situation is somehow funny and ridiculous. This engenders somehow in me a different kind of consciousness and a way of dealing with the situation. And when I find myself in a situation where I realize something, for me the most important element or component of that is that I am truthful to myself. And this acting out, this enacting is not so important. You can feel that there's something I'd like to get at.

[40:32]

Need some place to start. But also, you know, and I have to see into the situation, and I can't see into it as well as I'd like to. But, you know, let me just, because we're getting long, so we should take a break and finish. Let me take the constellation that I came into last night. I had to make a bunch of phone calls, so I came in during, I guess, the last 15 minutes or so. As soon as I'm in the room, I'm being defined by the situation.

[41:40]

If that wasn't the case, then constellations wouldn't work. And I am in a an unavoidable participant in the constellation. So I can decide, yeah, I can decide how to display the constellation. But I can't decide until I feel the medium of the constellation. And that takes a few moments. Now, when I talk about the consciousness of consciousness, as a liquid, that liquid is being formed by the whole situation.

[42:47]

Or if I spoke about it as a kind of network of saccadic scan. It manifests or takes form in various ways. Invisible but feelable ways. And another way it takes form is through the ayatanas. And that's the sense that each sense field separately creates a field. And there's an interpenetration of the object and the being. and the sensory. So the bell creates a field.

[44:08]

My hearing also creates a field. And those two fields are not quite the same. You may hear the bell a little differently than I do. Now, this... situated in medicine, when the now is not self-projection, if the now is not self-projection, Dogen says the now of actualized practice does not originally belong to the self and does not exist without.

[45:18]

And what he means is something like the now is actually a kind of canvas. So the now, when you're conscious, the now is the canvas of your own conceptual practice. If, like my friend, has a very stressed, overwhelmed self or deteriorating, disintegrating self, And if I, like my friend, am a very overwhelmed, stressed, distracted person, Or if he's trying to find himself or restore himself or find some ease in himself.

[46:33]

But for him the now is not neutral. The now is known as his consciousness and the now of consciousness is mostly constructed from self-referential thinking. So the medium of the self and the self are both under stress and he's in deep trouble. No. A person, a psychotherapist, tries to either work with the... sense of the self as a location, and or tries to work with the sense of self as the tapestry of the now.

[47:39]

So, from the Zen point of view, you can't get out of that. You can adjust it, but you can't get out of it. Okay. So, one of the ways out of it is to create... To find your location, your identity in the situated medias. Now then I'm differentiating, I'm distinguishing between identity and self. Identity is where you feel identified with the place.

[48:55]

The place does not have to be created through self-referential thinking. Okay, so I'm walking along. Various things are happening. But my if I have a question like if I have a feeling I am who I am something. I am just this situation. Now we all have that feeling to some extent. But through practice you make that almost penetrable. to self-referential thinking. you're always in the midst of a now that doesn't belong to the self.

[50:08]

And it's a bit like the gaze which is engaged, the gaze which is engaged Because the image has a complexity which the concept does not. So if you engage your gaze in the image, you can't shake the gaze loose from that image very easily you've brought your attention attention has been brought into the image that your attention has been brought into the image But having Britain brought in, it makes the image becomes a complexity which also holds the gaze. .

[51:29]

If the gaze of the ear... ...is fully brought to the bell... ...then the oscillation of the bell... ...begins to hold the gaze of the ear. And this held together... by the object and the organ of the ear in Ayatana. So it's like you're in a liquid constructed in layers from each of the six ayatanas. Actually twelve. One for each organ and one for each object. So that in the liquid of these six different ayatanas it is actually twelve, because for every sense organ

[52:51]

Now, you can't... You can't engage yourself in the medium of the situation. if the now is possessed by the self. Because then only self-projection and you're in a mirror. Then it's all falling apart and you're unhappy and you're suffering and you're anxious and everything doesn't make sense and you're depressed. It's really a terrible place to be. Okay. Would one of you be my therapist? Okay. You didn't dress like that.

[54:02]

I think that's clear now. Okay. So the sense that now is not being originally possessed by the soul. And Dogen says, this now, this actualized moment, is the seed of all the Buddhas. because it's no longer the seed of the projected self. If you can find yourself the dynamic of identity, if the dynamic of identity is in is this situated immediacy, then the situated immediacy opens you to the field.

[55:10]

If the situated immediacy is covered over kind of oil or membrane or skin or something of self projection. Which doesn't happen if we're at ease and healthy and so forth. But if we're anxious and insecure and worried and under stress, you know, I guess Siemens as a company, there's quite a lot of crisis in the company because they are

[56:13]

So I suspect if you're a Siemens executive and you know about some of these bribes, Maybe you didn't participate in them, but if you're asked to talk about it, then you have to say who did it, and you'd probably feel lousy. If you're a children's plan tracer and you have to admit to your kid And when you've been telling not to take drugs and don't lie, that you've been taking drugs and lying, you feel pretty lost. Yeah, I mean, this happens. You wake up in the morning and you just feel, yeah. So here is a difference between guilt and shame.

[57:35]

Guilt is defined through the past and projects into the future. Shame is defined in the present and is resolved in the present if you decide not to do it again. So shame doesn't extend into the future. So say this, I don't know, I'm just making this up, but say this to the front. So say this to the front. is not going to do this again.

[58:44]

He's just going to tell his son and daughter and so forth. I shouldn't have done this. I made a mistake. I feel lousy. And he can say with sureness, like a vow for your partner, I'm not going to do this again. Then the liquid, let's call it liquid, the liquid in which the son and daughter will live in the future, through which they will define themselves, is a liquid in which you're part of it, if you're the racer, that I will not do it again.

[59:46]

Okay. So then to the front racer can shift to the situated immediacy and be quite free of the whole thing. Now this is a strategy of self which you can develop through practice. And I think a therapist can develop it through practice. But I don't think the therapist can get the client to develop this through practice. But if this is strongly the therapist's way of functioning, it will influence the way the

[61:00]

Client also functions. That's my experience. But in Zen practice, this requires, if you're going to have what we call mind-to-mind transmission, it means that it actually happens. But it happens with a way in which it becomes anchored in the teacher and the disciple. One of the images of the teacher and disciple is the to roosters in different locations who both crow in the morning at the same time. And you can feel who is actually involved in mind-to-mind transmission.

[62:12]

Because the teacher and the disciple create a field where they feel each other all the time. And we're doing in some way partly the same thing because we are creating the antenna of our spine placed in a certain way. And we're doing it in a certain way because our antennas are And if we imagine that there's this field of, let's say, mechanically saccadic scanning, and the five and the six ayatanas, then or if we imagine looking into the water, and seeing the fish in the water,

[63:29]

and the stone and stuff in the lake. Well, we can't see the water here. You, in a way, have to imagine there's an invisible structure here. That you're letting yourself down into. and you function as if it were there and my goodness it is there you have to imagine it to kind of like get a feel for it but once you imagine it and you function within that imagination you actually begin to find out the case Yes, so when I came into the constellation last evening, felt this field that everyone had generated.

[64:50]

I had to decide how I can enter the field without disturbing the field. Because even a minus posture contributes to the field or subtracts from the field. or a small car No, you might say, I'm not interested in this, I'm not interested in this particular constellation, maybe the next one, I'm just going to sit this one out. That means you live in a world of self-projection and not the immediacy of the now. Because if you are defined through if the dynamic of identity is the situated immediacy I don't want to say now you only feel comfortable when you

[66:00]

are in... When you... are connected through and defined through the situation immediately. Now what Eric described earlier, when you slow down you start feeling My experience of what's happening there is you're seeking the level at which you can connect with situations. It's not seeking calmness in yourself. You're seeking the level at which you can connect to the situation in ease. Once you've found that, And really in the beginning it usually happens by slowing yourself down.

[67:38]

But once you've found the connection and plugged into it, then you get it wild as you want. And that wildness will be satisfying when it is part of the connectedness at some other point. Now, when I come into this group, I have to be rather careful. Because I have a separate relationship with each of you. So when I come into the constellation, I have to kind of like, how can I not interfere with this? I can't not participate because there's no way I cannot participate.

[68:44]

If I take a minus position, will I die in the middle of the floor or something? This is a positive or negative contribution? It can be positive. And you can tell whether it's positive because you are inseparably defined through each situation you're in. But never overwhelmed by the situation you're in. It's never too much or too strong. It's never too fast. Because you always have this location of non-self reference situated on medis.

[70:03]

As soon as you start identifying with it as yourself, then you can get overwhelmed. So when I first came in to the Friday night, you know, opening Thursday night talk. Wednesday night talk. I didn't wear my rucksack. Because I thought, I don't want to be here as a I don't want to start out as a Buddhist teacher in this group. Last night when I came into the concentration camp, I felt the easiest way to make myself as neutral as possible war, dass die einfachste Möglichkeit, mich so neutral wie möglich zu machen, was sit up and disappear, war es, hier zu sitzen und zu verschwinden.

[71:24]

Bob Dylan has a line in his song, Sometimes I'm the stranger who no one sees. I'm feeling like a stranger who no one sees. So, anyway. But then I decided to put on my rucks. Because that brings, when I do it and I sit in this way, it brings a practice feeling into the situation. And I felt it was all right because the consolation was primarily in the field of Christa So, since she's an experienced practitioner, I felt she could handle my being present as a practitioner. So I'm partly responding. to what you said, the skandhas are part of this field and how you enter this field.

[72:52]

How you experience yourself, because there's no self in the skandhas, how you experience your own experience in a way that's open to the field in which everything is defined all the time. The scandals like situated immediacy are a way of actualizing immediacy without the idea of self or without self-referentiality. Thank you. And strangely, that is unsealed. Anchored in a safe haven.

[74:06]

Where other things are there, your anxieties and things sometimes, et cetera. But there's so much vitality. in the situated immediacy that they barely penetrate. So working with developing a situated immediacy results in making you feel always complete and always connected and never separate from anything. It's not too bad. But it's a strategy of the self.

[75:18]

And what you've done is you've taken what isn't essential to the self away from the self. Taking the identification and the mediums of identification away from themselves and reassign them. Well, I'll get a little closer. I'm sorry, sometimes I just can't do it. I can't figure out how to speak about it. Manchmal kann ich das einfach nicht tun. Manchmal finde ich einfach keinen Weg, wie ich darüber sprechen kann. Was ist passiert? 30 Minuten sind verschwunden. Lasst uns eine Pause machen.

[76:11]

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