Are there any thoughts or observations that you have come up, that you'd like to bring up, about what we just talked about? Yesterday in the big group there was this we talked about this consciousness of consciousness being conscious of consciousness and And several people said that this experience is very close to the body. Is that what you meant by what you said this morning? When I'm speaking about consciousness of consciousness, trying to take words which also can be

[01:42]

experiences that we are familiar with. And put them together in a way that can become a practice. Okay, what I spoke about this morning is some other ingredients which can become a practice. So slightly different ingredients produce slightly different results. Eine kleine Veränderung in den Zutaten verändert das Resultatengang. To say that they lead to the same places to begin to treat them as entities and not activists.

[02:56]

Und zu sagen, dass sie zum selben Ergebnis führen, das ist damit zu beginnen, sie als Entitäten zu betrachten und nicht als Aktivitäten. Yes, I would say they do. They're overlapping spaces, overlapping experiences. But it's not a fruitful way to think. Is there this place that we can get to somewhere? Two roads to the same city lead to a different city. Okay. Make sense, sir? Okay. We say, when you come to a fork in the road, take it.

[04:00]

that presumes. But it's not the same that bodily intuition is not the same as the consciousness of consciousness. But bodily intuition, if we imagine it's this dolphin, loves to swim in the consciousness of consciousness. So finally it's close to body. Oh yes, very definitely. But I'm also speaking about your way of thinking about it.

[05:13]

Because if we think it's close to body, we suddenly think, oh, now I understand. That's a dangerous thought. I can notice that. So if you don't feel, if yourself doesn't feel offended, I can say... This is a mistake. Then I'm to think that way. Exploring what self is. But I can identify such mistakes because I've made them many, many times. Right. Can one also say two different ways of thinking about the body need two different bodies?

[06:34]

Yes. Because you can't separate your thinking about the body from the body. Because you can't separate your thinking about the body from the body. It appears at the moment that the body contains knowledge and mind contains concepts. No, consciousness contains concepts. Not mind. According to my experience and also the experience with clients I have is that concepts are also part of the body. Yeah, we talked about this yesterday. But if you use the body as a source or a fountain of wisdom, then it can also be dangerous because it can be intuition, but it can also be habit.

[07:47]

Of course. I never said we're using the body as a fountain of wisdom. But we are saying in Yogacara Zen practice that we can trust the body to be less deluded than the mind, than consciousness. And you can see the delusions and uptightness and so forth in the body much more easily than in the mind. And you can work through the body to the mind more easily than working through the mind to the body. But a non-conceptualized mind is primary to the body.

[09:08]

But a more fundamental mind is more fundamental than the body. By more fundamental, I mean from the point of view of practice, that is given priority. I mean, there's no... The knowledge of practice is the reference point is always, you know, The knowledge of Buddhism, the reference point is always practice. And the more refined reference point for definitions of mind, practice, consciousness, is do those definitions lead to freedom from suffering and enlightenment? That's a wonderful, elegant structure.

[10:24]

I would say one of the great creations of human life. But it's still a structure. It's not the only way to look at them. And that structure is being refined all the time over the centuries. And it's being refined right now. One of the relationships, what both of you have said, It's very important not to map one practice on top of another.

[11:27]

And the biggest mistake Buddhism has made is when they've done that. So, for example, in early Abhidharma, it's quite good. These are individual skandhas at the center of early Abhidharma. As The Abhidharma developed over quite a number of centuries. The Abhidharma is an attempt to turn Buddhist teachings implied in the sutras

[12:29]

into a system of practice. Yeah, so then it becomes a system of practice. And you can, yeah, okay. But then it becomes they try to make it consistent in a philosophy. And when a term occurs in one list, they try to make it the same meaning in every list. It isn't. Because all of these things have context-defined meanings. Context define means.

[13:44]

In the five skandhas, if you practice it, feeling is different from emotion. Emotion is in the context of perception. But feeling is translated as where they try to make it philosophical as pleasant, unpleasant or neither. And that becomes the standard definition of feeling. But that's not what it means in the practice of the five standards. In the practice of the five skandhas, feeling means non-graspable feeling.

[14:49]

If I respond to your eyebrows, non-graspable feeling. is like there's a feeling in this room. Does it fall into the categories of pleasant, unpleasant, and neither? Well, I mean, if you want to try to make an effort here. And moment after moment it's slightly different. And there's no words for it. You can't grasp it. Yeah. Okay. So, in summary.

[15:51]

Later Abhidharma tries to make a consistent philosophical system and then it gets a lot of this nonsense. make this a ten, because ten is a nice number. And you practice it and it's only seven. And they concocted the other three. And you practice and it's actually twelve. But they like ten. But that stuff you have to find out from your practice. I found some piece on the internet of self as narrative or something in Buddhism. So I often use the term narrative self. Today I'd like to use the...

[16:53]

self-narrative self. And the non-self-narrative self. Trying to find terms that actually Represent our experience, our potential experience. So I carried this thing around for about six months or beyond, I think. I should probably, you know. And I thought maybe I could find one or two ideas. So yesterday or the day before I told you it. It's just undigested, misunderstood, tag-ends a book.

[18:19]

And that is tag-end? Tag-end. A tag which sticks out like the... Okay. Like you pick this out of the blue and you try to piece it together. It was utter nonsense. I just... It sounded good. And if you don't know practice, like, well, maybe this is real. Okay, sorry, I went on like that. Someone else? Yeah. Is this connected? When I was young, I used to live among farmers between 19 and 30.

[19:25]

In 1930? Between 19 and 30. I lived among farmers when I was young. And I have now the feeling that that's exactly what they did, preceding intuition, before thinking and speaking, like the dolphins. I had the impression that the farmers who lived there as a young woman lived exactly what we are discussing now, how the dolphins came from below, by the intuition floating down and coming up a bit, and afterwards the thinking comes first, and then later the speaking. So this is definitely one connection. Yeah, I mean, often people in the crafts and in art and in farming and fishing, they learn to act this way, the most effective way to act.

[20:34]

But it's a context, I don't know whether, you know. It's a context-defined knowing. And not a wisdom in their life. I mean, all the ingredients are here in most of our lives. How we put them together. Someone else? Yeah? One thing I want to mention to the things that were mentioned just before, just to remember that it seems like we talk about one body, and we talked about body and the several bodies, and there is no one body. I think in the last years a lot of this came up now.

[21:38]

I just wanted to remind you that we have always talked about the fact that there is no body, and that there is no body, but that there are many bodies. When we talked about what we just talked about, it occurred to me. And the other thing is that I am busy with how my work practice, as a psychotherapist, is my practice. und wie dieses embodied mind da eine Rolle spielt. And the other thing is how this embodied mind plays a role in my practice as a practitioner of psychiatry, but it's also my practice. Und das sind irgendwie zwei Zuteile, also ich habe das Gefühl, das ist wie die I feel it's like the basis how the relationship, how it's a starting point of the relationship of the meeting.

[22:48]

And there are two ingredients which seem to make it so easy in this realm. This is one is my attitude that I, like in this Polissakowa of generosity, that I offer myself with all that might be there to somebody else's All that might be there, yeah. Yes. And the other thing is that there is a question or a questioning or an ask, a wanting in the patient. And these two ingredients And these two ingredients seem to come together and make it very easy to live in this state of mind, this embodied state.

[24:08]

With another person? Yeah, in this relationship. Thanks. Did I get everything right? Yes. I was interested in what you said about the possible confusion, Something came to my mind with what Hans said about wisdom of the body and the conditioned habits. And first there is a very personal experience in my own practice. It is a process in which I, on the one hand, when the mind and body feel together,

[25:10]

So over the years there is this experience developed when body and mind are somehow fused. And there is a feeling comes up that as if I would be a kind of container. And this makes it possible to see one's own conditions, one's own conditioning or a condition one has. And actually a great sensitivity is created or is there.

[26:30]

And I want to give an example because this was so important for myself. I noticed in my everyday life and also in this situation that I have a quite specific attitude. in relation how of this holding my neck and my head and And slowly I realized that this is related to a very early traumatizing experience.

[27:37]

And this has something very redeeming. And to feel that and to allow that and also to let oneself realize it and that it's okay that there is this kind of in me. And this physical attitude also is connected to the mind? This physical posture is connected to an attitude of thinking and an attitude of being in the world.

[29:10]

And this is one experience that I had but now there are many more experiences in this way which are connected to traumatizing experiences. And what happens with it at the same time is that the sensibility is also there to work with people with whom you work, with whom I work, to find out much more and to feel what is conditioned, what is not. This enables me to see with my clients and with other people where these conditionings are and where the body is not a fountain or a source of wisdom but a condition. Und es wird möglich, durch diese Arbeit mit dem Gewahrsein, dass Menschen selbst, dass sie selbst gleichzeitig spüren, wo ist mein konditioniertes

[31:00]

So by creating this mutual field of awareness with the client, the clients themselves are able to feel this conditioning in the body simultaneously. So their own knowing helps them to feel it and to experience it. Yeah. Because part of what you're talking about, and we are talking about, I was particularly noticing the gestures not your hand gestures, the physical presence of the words in your body.

[32:07]

Whether an M, a word starting with M, starts here or starts up here or something like that. And I was thinking, noticing, you know, if I'm in America and people are speaking English to English speakers, It's a little bit harder for me to understand the English speaker than the German speaker. Because what does the... When an English speaker is speaking about something like you speak about, their body believes what they're saying. When I'm watching your body, I know that these words in your body, a certain me, to some extent I can feel.

[33:24]

I mean, I can feel physically, but not mentally. But then I have to experience his version of it. And the extent to which he is embodying these words through his own practice or through empathetic, intuitive sense of your practice. And it creates a field of, we don't know what's quite true here. But we said what he says. But if it's in a field of the not quite true, then we have to come into it with more of making it our own.

[34:37]

I mean, one of the main teaching, one of the main ways of speaking in Buddhism is to unsay things. You say something and then you take away the saying. Because it's not, the meaning is not in what's said. It's It's closer when it's said and then unsaid. Okay, anyone else? Is that part of the neti neti of India? Neti neti? Neti neti, the Indians used to say, mean none of this nor that. Probably it is.

[35:50]

I have neti neti. Well, it might cause trauma in an American kid, because it sounds like naughty, naughty. Okay, someone else? Okay, yes? What you said, right? How is the self structured? Practitioner? On the one hand you mentioned the day before yesterday that in order to practice it is necessary to have a strong self.

[37:03]

And I want to question, I want to pose the question, what do you mean by strong, by a strong self? And the other thing is that in the pause I had again this image of the puzzle. And I had there here that the meeting points of these pieces of puzzle, puzzle pieces, also have functions, which are also protective functions. they have functions and these functions can also be to protect.

[38:23]

And I I would say that when practice evolves, then the puzzle pieces also change. Through practice, these puzzle pieces start to change and shift. And this is also a point of red avenue. a meeting point with psychotherapy, I could imagine that at this stage also... Yeah, contents emerge and charges.

[39:45]

Yeah. Yes, which are overwhelming. And I ask myself at this point the question could arise how does practice deal with this emerging or surfacing charged contents or whether this might be a point of transfer between psychotherapy and practice. Well, what you said is pretty complex.

[41:00]

And I have to feel my way into the various parts of it to speak to it. Before I can say anything about it. But it's certainly related to what I feel like I should speak about or could speak about now. So let's see if I do, and then you can tell me what's left over and not left over. But in some relationship to what you just said. Artists often when they start to practice.

[42:05]

And in fact the rule is, if you're an artist and you start to practice, you should stop your art for a year or two. Number of reasons for that. Probably the structural reason is, is that art is a way that we free ourselves from self. But simultaneously a way we continue ourselves in a more subtle way. So you want to stop that more subtle continuation of the self, because that's harder to reach through practice than the more closer self.

[43:07]

But it's also that it can just interfere with practice. Yeah. Another reason is we often practice in order, through art we resolve things that we can't resolve otherwise. And in addition, I think most artists actually are working out of an enlightenment experience. And if I look

[44:08]

Let's take some big names. If I look at Picasso or Matisse, I can see what their enlightenment experience was. Or Cezanne. I mean, I always tease Horst because he looks just like Cezanne. I always tease Horst because he looks just like Cezanne. And then they continuously paint their way, or like poetry, write their way back toward that modernity. tends to confine the experience within the art. But then your life is your art.

[45:29]

That takes a higher priority than whether you're a good painter or a good poet. But some people actually who start out practicing because of art, They see it's actually undermining the neurotic, traumatic, et cetera stuff that their work, that their art comes out of, They don't want to practice. ambition people have to be successful, etc. So very, very neurotic. And if they get rid of their neuroses, they're not going to be so ambitious.

[46:28]

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