of the RCA image of the dog in the amplifier? Yeah. Yeah. But I always... See, I always feel like the dog sitting here waiting for my amplifier. Check this out. I mean, I don't mean to compare you to a machine, but maybe you'd rather be that than a dog. Metaphors only catch certain aspects. Oh, they don't carry everything. He's always teaching me.

[01:02]

It's a mutual concept. He's modest. And Sister Tinman sent this email today, and she participated in the last seminar, and I think it's connected to Reconciliation Work India the last time, which was about the clouds and the sea. And Siegfried asked me to translate it and to read it out loud. Okay. There is an S. Who was it? Franziska Tillmann. That's one of those little cell phone messages? Yes. Okay. Ich versuche es jetzt zu übersetzen, weil es ein bisschen schwierig ist. I can feel you today. The image of the cloud and the sea became clear to me in an instant.

[02:09]

We, how do you say, the constellated? Aufstellen? Yeah, we did this constellation. You've taken off. We set up this constellation of the cloud and the sea as a vertical and a horizontal. And I was at the point where the vertical and the horizontal met. No, I was at the transit point. The transit point of... of a sense of passing time and eternal time. And that also fits to the theme. Okay, and Siegfried explains that he thinks that what she might mean is that she realized today in an instant that she is at this meeting point. Mm-hmm. and that everybody, greetings to everybody, and also to the ocean.

[03:32]

She obviously couldn't come today. She's here, but she's invisible. She's the gorilla. She's the gorilla. I already told you about the invisible man that went to the doctor. And the nurse went in and said, there's an invisible man to see you. And the doctor said, I can't see him. And he says, I can't see him. Sorry, you know. Okay, what I'd like to do, thanks, is have some discussion, whatever you'd like to talk about.

[04:35]

More or less we define consciousness as an accumulation of concepts. But I think there are many concepts we are not conscious of. Are these also part of consciousness? No. I wouldn't say so. I would say that consciousness is a particular continuum of concepts at a particular moment. Is that all right? But all the habits that I have that I'm conscious of, that they are also leading to me.

[06:06]

Yes. So it's important to become conscious of them. Aware of them, okay. All the advantages that he had for unconsciousness, I write them down like this, the conscious must have them. It is a process of consciousness and freedom. Well, let's just take one example. We have a concept of the body. Which is, Buddhism has called the thought body or a body sheaths, like sheath and knife.

[07:07]

And that's unconsciously and implicitly held as a concept of the body creating an inside, outside, etc. And that's not part of consciousness, but you could say it's... an implicit structure within consciousness. So at the center of Dogen's teaching, and often in a teacher, a particular teacher, there will be two or three central experiential certain wisdoms that their whole teaching usually falls out from.

[08:09]

Also bei Togen ist es so der Fall, aber wahrscheinlich ist es bei allen Lehrern so der Fall, dass es drei grundlegende Erfahrungen gibt, aus denen ihre gesamte Lehre herausgefaltet wird. And one of them in Dogen is the dropping of body and mind. And that partly refers to the dropping of the body, body sheet. I guess we'd have to say there's a foundational consciousness that we're not conscious of. But we have to be... I mean, not... for me as a practicing Buddhist I have to be careful how I say these things.

[09:12]

Because it's very easy to turn foundational consciousness into an inherent semi-permanent identity or something like that. Because as soon as you say something, it tends to turn into an entity. Then it takes on its own life. But I think in regard to what you say, we have to speak about a foundational consciousness of the continuum of consciousness, which is a moment-by-moment singularity. One reason I

[10:21]

I repeat things. Of course, as I said, it's to turn them into a new light. Turn them into a new light. Yeah, and deepen our emphasis on certain things. But also, I repeat things so we can all get located in that state of mind and then from that state of mind speak about these things. Okay. Someone else? Yes, Siegfried. You asked us, or you posed the question, why we come to this place again and again, into this seminar, and I want to answer that from my own experience.

[11:57]

I enjoy very much the language of thinking, of consciousness and of power. With consciousness, I enjoyed very much how you swim along in the stream of consciousness and mind, without creating any island, from which we could observe or look at this tree better. From time to time poking holes or making holes in the boat where you sit in. So actually they are making Being conscious of consciousness, making... Making yourself conscious of consciousness.

[13:18]

And that even by language, which I think is extremely difficult, So what I am experiencing here is non-dual thinking. I think I consider it more easy to experience it and embody this, but I think to talk about it is the most difficult.

[14:21]

And that's what I'm very grateful for. Thank you. What I hope is we approach this together. Because even though millions of people exist on the planet, billions, very few people know about it. Some people live it. Not many people. For not many people is it... shared wisdom. So we're a little group of no island folks. And everyone else is on land.

[15:29]

And we splash. We're over here. There's an image for the practice of Buddhism. It's like stirring the ocean with a broken stick. Okay. So the first I have to say is that Siegfried somehow also spoke from my heart and it's the same way I put it. So when you were in the morning talk about how you thought about our group process yesterday evening.

[16:31]

A very big joy came up in me. Because I found this was so wonderful because yesterday evening a group of people sat together for a long time And we also thought what's the reason for that we are here and that we feel this and have this special feeling of being together. And for me personally, this is also very special, because I am moving in many other, not-therapeutic groups.

[18:00]

And for me it is also a little bit different, or I am in a special position, because I am moving also in other non-therapeutic groups. And I only want to express one experience and one thought. Because I think other people will also say something on that topic. First there is this experience that after some time of being together here, Everything is somehow slowed down, as if time would slow down.

[19:03]

How do you call when your computer, you shut down? Yeah. It slows down. It does. Yeah. Please don't go. No. Yeah. In no way, no, no. It's not insulative. So my experience is that this slowing down process, this sinking down, it enables that things, there's also this awareness that things can appear. And that sometimes it really is that I appear to you, someone appears, someone appears, the tree appears, the tree could also start walking, it becomes

[20:10]

So there is this experience of appearance. People are appearing. When they enter the room, they are appearing. It's as if trees even could start to walk. So this experience of appearing. And that's not something I'm doing, that's something that is happening. And that's amazing. And that was also a topic we talked about in this group, but actually that's a topic we talk about again and again. And I have the feeling that somehow... something is taking shape or crystallizing and that's the thought in this exchange of our therapeutic work our work is our practice and we practice in our therapeutic work

[21:38]

Which is a closely connected or where there is a strong current of acceptance and... Acceptance and acceptance. Yeah, acceptance and... Acceptance. Yeah, that's the first thing. That's one thing. Yeah. It's hard now. Okay, yeah. Let me note at this point that, you know, because so many people study Buddhism or look into Buddhism as if it were primarily the context for an enlightenment experience. And that view really creates an outside and inside, those who have the experience and those who don't. And reduces Buddhism to some...

[23:10]

simple almost spiritual greed. What we see here is the wisdom and craft of mind. We can develop through practice but also through understanding and and practice with others. And this has developed incrementally over what? 18 years? 15 years? I don't know. Okay.

[24:34]

Anyone else? I'd like to hear how you feel, but I'd also like some discussion between you. It does seem that as soon as we have a break, you freely discuss. As soon as we come back... So I wish I could, you know, I mean, like Al Green, if I could just turn myself into a fly on the wall. And then maybe I could get next to you. Yes. I'm still thinking about this condition or state of becoming conscious of consciousness.

[25:36]

And I ask myself about the qualitative. And I have some... I have a... Never heard this word before. A feeling about it. Just a great way of knowing what it could be. Just a supposition.

[26:40]

And I would like to share it and to hear what you say about it. Me or everyone, I hope. Okay, please. I have a picture of consciousness. The picture of water is not, because consciousness is something that moves forward, where the veins move forward. So if you take the image of the water, the consciousness would be like the waves that move along. And there is no beginning and no end, but there is constant movement and there is direction. And this process of becoming conscious of consciousness might be like creating a wave that is

[27:49]

standing, not moving, as if it would be steady. Because something is a whole little cap which is actually the same. Okay. Yeah, I hear you. I don't have anything to say. Yes, Christiane? I think if it's about a discussion between us, I think, then we really have to sit in a different way. Because when we look at you, we actually are talking to you. Okay. But that's also very beautiful and wonderful.

[29:22]

I don't know if I could suspend myself up there. Well, we can move more into a circle if we wish. That's part of the circle. And I was in this small circle during the prayer. And I thought that being a psychotherapist or having an occupation where you help other people That, I think, is practice, the practice for lazy people.

[30:34]

Because we are somehow forced into taking these attitudes as a bodhisattva. At least to try to develop. And at the same time we are doing that when we earn our money. But actually we should make ourselves more conscious of that. Actually what kind of, how lucky we are in this position. Yeah, I think so. I mean, why do you think I'm sitting here with you? Because I'm such a bad practitioner. I have to arrange my life. Everywhere I go, people say, now sit cross-legged.

[31:45]

So and I, such a scattered mind, I keep staying in this posture so I can establish a mind with you. I decided very early I ought to practice, but I'm going to need a lot of help. I've arranged to live with people who practice my entire life. In 45 years, I've never had a private apartment until last year. Yeah. I try.

[32:57]

It's not clear in my head, absolutely clear in my head, but I try. Starting from the question why I'm here and why... Why particularly Buddhism? I must say that as a psychotherapist, I always have to do with states of consciousness, either with my own or with my clients. In research of these different approaches, psychoanalysis and so on, there are different approaches. Also in searching other approaches like shamanism, Hinduistic yogi, I somehow stuck to Buddhism.

[34:13]

I hadn't stuck to Buddhism. In recent years. And the reason for that is that it seems to me the most stringent teaching... The most what? Stringent? Stringent? Stringent? Yes, stringent. Because it starts from a very deep basis, a very fundamental basis. In psychotherapy but also in transpersonal psychotherapy, there is a big deficit of a new conceptualization.

[35:22]

It's extremely diffuse and also contradictory. And I think that a Buddhist theory of consciousness can make a big contribution. I heard lectures from a Vajrayana tantrist and I was extremely fascinated by them. But I think and I thought that there is much translation work to do for our European and also American language because the way it is put Traditionally, you cannot keep it that way.

[36:51]

You have to translate it. So that's fascinating, fascinated by your approach, because that is exactly what I think has to be done to do this translation work into a Western language, like for instance this Dukkha thing we were talking yesterday, in order to make it accessible for people in Western civilization. Maybe I got a glimpse or I got some understanding of what is meant by the standards because I think I didn't completely get it so far. And it's a kind of a feeling or a feeling that there's so much potential in this teaching of the five standards.

[38:08]

So... For this reason, I think it's a very important exchange to somehow to compare, but not also to compare, but to make it fit together, this Buddhist thinking and this psychotherapeutic thinking, to make this... Yeah, okay, thanks. So only one example. For a long time I was thinking about this very often simplistic idea of attachment. And if you translate it in a new way, for myself I translated it from different sources, then there is a lot of potential in it.

[39:25]

And there are different ways to put this idea of attachment. Many traditional teachers use it in a kind of way which is in a negative way, where people feel badly if they say attachment, attachment, attachment. And for me, after reading several sources, I translated it for me in a way of sensuality, being connected to the senses. And also some kind of interest or curiosity and then it gets a different kind of new kind of connotation.

[40:42]

And this also has a radical consequence for meditation. Because when I don't get away from thinking, then it's not a self-punishment with attention and attachment, but it's a kind of appreciation. Oh, how beautiful is what I have here. Maybe it's a misconception, but I think you... You should trust your own experience. I think it might be useful in this context to say the Japanese word for detachment actually means detached yet not separate from. Detached yet not separate from. nicht angehaften, aber gleichzeitig nicht getrennt von.

[41:55]

And that's really, you can... And that's really not different. And that's really not different. Maybe if I move out the architectural center of this building, maybe in a conversation with you, I will have to move too. No, I think it's hysterical. Well, you have to do it on your own. Yes. I thought about it. I tried it out again last year. How does it go in the circle? And for me it was not so convincing. We were just further out of the wall. I was thinking about last year's experience when we had this circle and my experience was not so good because the circle just made that we were far apart from each other.

[43:16]

and I was thinking that what's the reason why that we don't we don't refer what we say we as groups say or what an individual group of members would say but we would refer what Richard is saying The reason is that Richard is here, and maybe I'm more interested, at least that's for me the case, I'm more interested in what Richard is saying, because that's one reason why I'm here, and Richard is not present in the break. So we have to ask ourselves what it might mean, what he just said.

[44:27]

And then I use this dialogical method of speaking in stone, the person who speaks in stone, in order to be able to respond to what we say in the group. Well, let me say that Buddhism has taken conceptual leaps Also lasst uns sagen, dass der Buddhismus so konzeptuelles Sprüngeln gemacht hat. When it has entered a new culture. Wenn es eine neue Kultur betreten hat. Wenn er eine neue Kultur betreten hat. I would say in general it hasn't become culture related to the new culture.

[45:49]

In general würde ich sagen, dass der Buddhismus nicht in eine neue Kultur inkulturiert wurde. That happens in In some sense. Mainly Buddhism is developed more deeply in its own terms. It's solved, let's say, dissonant. implicit dissonance, dissonance, dissonance, which was present in the, which wasn't so visible in the earlier culture. And then, in the new culture, it solved problems it couldn't solve in the other culture. So you could say simply in the new culture it became more itself.

[46:54]

And it seems to me that part of that is, in what's going on now, is one of the nodal points, the acupuncture points. is leading Western culture is especially leading psychology. And I've seen it dramatically in my own lifetime. And I think that it's likely that perhaps the encounter of Buddhism will let psychology take a leap more in its own terms and not necessarily in Buddhist terms. Just two little anecdotes.

[48:07]

When we started Tassajara in 1966, we thought therapists might be interested. We sent out a brochure to 25,000 Californian therapists. I would say statistically not one expressed an interest. There's just no interest. It was like different, it was competitive. And many thought it was dangerous. It's not our culture. They didn't just think it as human culture. At one time I spent the whole afternoon, I had quite a strong connection with this family of these two people I've not mentioned. One of them was headed or had been headed the

[49:22]

International Jungian Society. And his wife was one of the leading Jungian analysts. And we knew each other off and on for years. And at one point, we talked all afternoon, all morning, from mid-morning to late afternoon about Buddhism and Shakyamuni. And their view really was in the end Jungian psychology is a closed, complete system. There's nothing to do with Buddhism and we're not interested. I could see many fertile points of interest. You could see none. fruchtversprechende Punkte, aber sie haben keine, der Verbindung gesehen, aber sie haben überhaupt keine gesehen.

[50:57]

I had a [...] head of the Jungian Society in San Francisco say to me that I was trying to fly out and meditate. He warned me, you know, It's not safe to meditate until you're 35, because you're not formed enough yet, and you may go crazy. And I thought, well, I hope it's not right. Oh, I thought, I'm already pretty crazy. LAUGHTER And perhaps more surprising, do you know who Christmas Humphreys is? He was founder and head of the London Buddhist Society, the most prominent Buddhist organization in the West.

[52:02]

A friend of mine wrote many books about Buddhism. A friend of mine knew him in England. And he said, it's dangerous to meditate more than five minutes. We Westerners can't handle it. He took a boat to San Francisco from London, and he would meditate five minutes and get up and walk around and then meditate for five minutes because he was still in the night. He took a boat from London to San Francisco. I mean, we've come a long way since then. In the Dharma Sangha in Europe, the largest group is probably psychotherapists.

[53:42]

You know what the second largest, almost big group is? Talk to her. Computer programmer. There are lots of concerns. How do I work? And the next time I'll go to medical doctors. Okay. Excuse me for all that. Thank you. Yes, someone else. Yes. I could try now to talk about I would like to say again or phrase newly what I tried to say in the very beginning about psychotherapy, Buddhism and trauma.

[54:50]

Trauma. Meine Erfahrung ist, sowohl persönlich als auch in der Arbeit mit anderen Leuten, My personal experience, personally, and also working with other people, ist, dass für eine, weiß ich nicht, bestimmte Art von traumatisierten Leuten, ist das für eine spezielle Art von traumatisierten Leuten, Especially where there was not a due from the beginning of the life on. That the spiritual practice becomes the only possible you. only possible way out of the trauma, or the trauma limits them to only a spiritual view?

[56:06]

Not view, but you. In the sense of me and you. Like when I do it, it's also my personal story. When I did constellation work, the only relevant you, like in... The only relevant... Okay. The only relevant eye consciousness or first-person consciousness. Okay. Some others use the sense of a person you can relate to. So normally at the beginning of life that's the mother. And when that doesn't work at all, or not very well, then there are many people who just try to avoid a certain quality of relationship. Or they arrange the world in a way that this kind of other person you can relate to is not necessary and does not exist.

[57:36]

And this place is often then occupied by spiritual practice. And this also makes sense for me in various ways. For one reason that it is less dangerous than to really go into a relation to another person and to somehow to dare to enter such a relation. Because there is much more connected with this practice.

[58:43]

There is a teacher, there is teaching, and there is a sangha. And that somehow makes a safe ground or secures it. And the second thing is that through this inner work of spiritual practice, it became possible for the first time with this skill she developed to look at this trauma and to meet it. And then there are many people who just stay at this point. And my experience is that it...

[59:44]

And my experience, my own experience is that you have to get on in this process and to look with these skills again at this trauma, which again leads to psychotherapy. You have to look at this with what skills? The skills of practice or meditation or something? Yes. First it needs the skills of practice to look at it and maybe to meet it. For the therapist or for the client? For both. But then to dissolve it or to kind of, yeah, maybe dissolve it. So to see what's going on, you need mindfulness practice or something.

[60:48]

Yes, and I think a lot more. That's what I, yesterday. Yeah. But then I see that many practitioners stay there and really to dissolve it, it needs to step maybe back or beside again into a therapeutical relationship where you really dare to meet and then it's complete. Dare to meet the therapist, even. Yes, that's where it starts. That's what it's all about. To imagine being understood by the therapist. Don't just encounter a person who is in the same field. And that's really nourishing. Yeah, great. Also kannst du mal definieren, was du von der Trauma verstehst?

[61:50]

Was ist eine traumatisierte Person? Das Trauma, das ich jetzt im Auge habe, ist zum Beispiel, wenn ein Kind auf die Welt kommt und da gibt es keinen resonanten Bezugsform. The trauma I have in view at the moment is when a baby is born and there is nobody there. There is no reference point, no resonating reference point. Or other aspects are different, experiences of violence. So you'd say that there are certain classic situations, like the mother's not really there for the child, or there's violence, and that traumatizes a person for the rest of their life. She can also be traumatized by being in the Iraq war or something. This is a kind of...

[62:51]

I wouldn't completely agree to this definition because example starts only from an external experience or experience coming from outside. I would say trauma is when a person is really swept away from an experience and is actually unable to handle it. Also when the organism cannot handle it, the whole system is somehow breaking down. What are the symptoms or manifestations of trauma in a person? I would like to say something.

[64:22]

I really enjoy this shift in our discussion by just moving the seat, but in order to be able to translate, I need a certain kind of discipline. Thank you. So I really would ask you to give me the time to translate. I really think that what you described can be some kind of... can be that... can initiate a trauma, but I don't think that not necessarily. Yeah, OK. But actually, I was not filming. I completely agree on that. By the way, we have to stop pretty soon because of what you asked me to stop at quarter to two.

[65:30]

You asked me how it works when the system breaks down. How can that look like? I wanted to make it a little more practical. For example... Roshi asked me, how does it really look like, what are the symptoms of a traumatized person? And I wanted to say a little bit about that. And for the baby, it's very often, and that's something you really find again when you go into therapy with this person. That this person is somehow, or this being is going outside the body. And it's also on the threshold or on the edge of the question, do I want to live or do I want to die?

[66:40]

Do I want to go back? And at this threshold also this person makes this experience of, and we talked about that, of light and that everything is good again. And that there is this desire for this experience remains, but it's so strongly connected with the previous trauma. Going away from these examples, I would like to generalize in the following way.

[67:49]

It's too much, and it's too quick, and it's too strong. They experience it. What they experience, they might say, we could do stone. Yeah. Yeah. I understand. I understand. Yeah. So depending on who we are, where we are whole, we have a certain kind of area where we can, where we can cope with. What is it that you are finished with? A tolerance? An area that is elastic. Okay. And trauma means we freeze. And this area is... Trauma means that this resilience area free it somehow and also shrinks.

[69:02]

And it leaves its traces in the whole nervous system. And also produces a fortified or increased tension, state of tension. Yeah, okay. Since we have to stop, let me just say that you could say Zen practice is about In depth, it is widening the resilience area. We would, I choose it in English, we would say in the same way, we would continue this resilience zone. And transform it too quick, too much, and too strong. And that's in a way what I meant by don't sacrifice your state of mind.

[70:05]

Okay, what I would like you to do... I hope you agree. I'd like you... you take the first half of the afternoon. So you decide whether you want to, when we come back from lunch, whether you want to start with 30 minutes of sitting or not. And then decide what configuration to have a discussion together in small groups or a whole group? Then what configuration of the room would work if I joined the conversation.

[71:06]

And it's a difference when I join the conversation and when I create the conversation. If from a point in the room I have to create the conversation, it's much more difficult or it's almost aggressive. But if I'm sitting in some way, I can feel all of the influence, then I have more permission. to create conversation. So let's shift this afternoon to where you can have a conversation and then where I can enter in with you in a conversation and probably at some point where I can create a conversation.

[72:33]

Is that okay? So let's see what we can do because there's so much all of us have that needs to find some way to come up. Also, lass schauen wie wir das machen können, weil jeder von uns hat so viel, was herauskommen kann, was jeder hat, und finden wir Wege, wie das herauskommen kann. So, do you agree with that? Also, stimmt ihr dem zu? Okay, so now you have to decide, if I may say, when you come back after lunch, and what will you have sitting first or not? Und jetzt müsst ihr euch entscheiden, wann wir nach dem Essen kommen, und ob wir sitzen oder nicht.

[73:18]

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