Yes, yesterday we stopped in the middle of a very lively discussion. And now a lot has happened again. Let's see what's going on today and where we can take one or the other path. And you would like to have somebody whispering in your ear? I'll whisper. Good. I will let you say something about the topic we touched yesterday. I would like to say something about yesterday, to take off where we left, sort of.

[01:06]

And it's about start to practice. First of all, I think everybody, not only a younger generation, older generation, everybody likes to know what they're getting into. They like to understand. I think that both the younger generation and the older generation want to know what is happening right now, where we are moving into. Before we go into water, for example, we touch it. If it's nice and warm, then we get in and enjoy. And to me, then, it's more like just jumping into the deep end and learn to swim. And from what I remember when I started to practice we heard things like Zazen is good for nothing

[02:25]

Or first sit, then understand. But this somehow, I wanted to explore. What does it mean? What does it mean? So, of course, it can push people away, but I think at the same time it can make people curious and continue. And it could maybe scare some people away, but it could also make some people curious, who then want to stick to it. And I really appreciate the honesty in our practice, in this tradition. So there is no promises that we get enlightened, that we are a better person.

[03:40]

But it's the brutal truth. And it's difficult, but I rather go through difficulties than to live in a lie. We talked a little bit about it at the table yesterday evening. And when it comes to understanding, I mean, I want to understand something and not just do it somehow, then there are different ways of understanding for me. And we in the West are just incredibly drawn to it,

[04:43]

das vom Kopf kognitiv wie vorzustrukturieren. And for me, there is another understanding that... Oh, I won't be translated. I'm lost. You can just talk. And talk and talk. No, I won't. There is another understanding, and for me that refers to... What Roshi Shonshi always emphasizes behind all the teachings, through all the teachings, is that this is a yogic practice. And understanding happens in the body. But what I believe, and I would be interested in this, like Gerhard, who has a lot of experience with this, is that there is an explanation that does not promote the understanding of the head, this very western-oriented one,

[05:57]

but also those who are not in the way of the yogic understanding, and who can be involved in it. And I suspect that you have found some way there, and that's why I would like to know more about it, where you say, these are four sentences, or how do you influence people there? Thank you, Madhu. Today I will tell you something about it.

[07:21]

My experience with laypeople in the city is that they are very long on understanding, so to speak. And a kind of change or almost breakthrough happens when they first distinguish. Because after two or three days you come to understand that you are no longer willing to continue. You are willing physically and everything you think about in parallel is just a way. And I experience it again and again that another practice begins. And that is this embodiment, this direct bodily experience.

[08:23]

And they want to have it again. Because it works, you all know it, it works through the Sechin's mouth. And then it becomes the question, how do I get this into my everyday life, so that I can at least have connections from time to time. That will help in six weeks, because I have to do something on a regular basis. Or just regular sitting. But Sesshin is already a great goal for many people. Especially in terms of physicality. And one more remark about that.

[09:28]

There will be a lecture in Sechin, and then the people come to the Doxan, and they are occupied with completely different things than I have offered them in the lecture. Sometimes it's like two worlds. I offer something and they are completely engaged with their approach, with their practice. But it's not like it's going to be lost, it's going to disappear later. But it's a real immersion in this real arrival. And what I say is actually just silence. I can't imagine, it seems to be disturbing, but if I remember from my first sessions, that was the background that affected and carried me.

[11:01]

And before that, everything had to go through for the first time. I just got the picture of what Baker Oshima said in relation to, I don't know if the first Seishin or at all Seishin, that it's a bit like the feeling when you drive full throttle with the car and then make a brake and the whole luggage crumbles from the back to the front. There's a while to do. I would really be interested if it sounds very strange what I say, that I don't know what you understand about physical form. So I understand that. Does it mean that this happens in the body?

[12:08]

Does it mean that there is no other place than the body? Does an experience of non-knowledge mean that something happens in the body? Yes, where else? I would have to say now. Also, dann wäre ja der Körper sozusagen das Fahrzeug der Erfahrung. Und dann ist auch der Körper eine Notwendigkeit, hier zu sein. Und dann ist der Körper eine Notwendigkeit der Transformation. Dann wäre die Frage, wohin denn Transformation

[13:11]

What is the goal of this transformation? Or is there no goal at all? I just got a surprise, surprise! The first Sechin, now there is the first Sechin, appeared and where I was also allowed to experience it. It was at a place where there was a window and at the place where I was there was a very high window and it was winter, it was Sechin between the years and day by day the snow rose. And I sat and sat and sat with all the pain and all the luggage that was piled up in front of me. And one day a cat came over and it was a moment, a really physical feeling of, well, if the snow snows through me and always climbs and the cat goes through me, what is sitting there?

[14:29]

That was exactly the moment when this physical experience came back into a mental aspect. But it didn't disturb itself for a little while. Something like that about physical experience. I just don't understand it. Am I in the wrong place? Am I wrongly chosen? I ask myself, why do I keep coming back to this topic? Und ich scheine eine der wenigen zu sein, die so ein Gefühl hat. Mir geht es ein bisschen ähnlich wie dir.

[15:41]

Ich habe auch die ganze Zeit schon den Satz von Rossi im Untergrund. my follow-up, the whole world is our true body. Who is the one who wants to understand? And understand what? And understand what? But the reference point of the...

[16:44]

Somehow a silent background. It is a bit strange to attribute it to a property, because it is somehow without a property, but I'll say it was silent. The silent background. At which point does something still take place that I understand? Or I notice it knowingly. My first experience was that the only difference was for me the difference when it comes to the question of what is the difference or what does physical experience mean. It was a bit of the feeling of drowning, that suddenly there was a certain tension, they became super present and With it, some feelings and pictures and words were not there.

[17:59]

And it was just that. And I don't think that it has to be like that for everyone, or that this is the experience that should be there. I think that every character goes a different way. And sometimes it's hard to talk about the practice without having the feeling that we have to do this and that. But I think that there are different ways. And this physical experience works for me personally. As I said, it went through a lot of tension. It's as if they're the only ones there. I don't even want to say pain. We also have viruses, but for things that go on in the body, which then pull the fear together. and heat or cold or something like that.

[19:07]

And where I had the feeling that it was working somehow now and that I had to let it morph or just put my attention into it. Yes, that's my personal experience with it now. I can argue with that again. I think there are a lot of different ways, depending on what you feel personally, I think every person has different psychological structures and they also flow into the Zen practice. Depending on where this structure is, different exercises and different experiences can be important for one and not for the other. What I can report is that it goes in the same direction as Nathalie reported.

[20:09]

When I was still sitting on the cushion at the session, I think it was one of the first sessions, I had severe back and shoulder pain. Also in the knees. And I had a mental... I would have liked to have massaged it, but that didn't work. I had to sit still. And I had the mental idea that I was massaging these areas that hurt me. I could concentrate on that for a long time. And it relieved the pain. It just relieved it for me. I think it's a physical experience. You can also say it's a spiritual experience. It's certainly hard to separate, but I experienced it physically. The pain was gone. And a good part is of course also the aspect of acceptance. The pain is there and I breathe into the pain.

[21:13]

In the knee. There is no guarantee that it will work. Would that mean that the spirit is not a body? Yes. But the pain is a body? The pain is in the body. The nerves end up in the brain. That's a very difficult question. Maybe it's a very cultural question, because we are one of those cultures that are so strongly divided between the body and the mind. We have a very long tradition, and I think it's quite unconsciously clear that the body also has a part in it. And it's all connected.

[22:13]

We can't trigger a certain word, we can't trigger a certain feeling, we can't trigger a certain feeling, we can't trigger a certain word. I think it's hard to really talk about it. or to separate it at all, that's one thing, of course. But thinking in terms of language and words, isn't that a different experience That's a problem. Yes, I also wanted to learn from my doctors, which I also had last year. I never had any pain while sitting, and when I sat down for a while,

[23:14]

my thighs, from the lats to the knees, really burned. It was as if hot coal had hit my thighs and it just burned like fire. We also had a conversation with Nicole on the second and third day. I wasn't sure that I would say that I was crying because I couldn't stand the pain. I had cramps. I tried to pull my thighs and legs together. My conversation with Nicole was very good and I was also moved. And then I was able to express this pain or this very, what I now call physical experience, I have noticed how it has developed in everyday life.

[24:21]

What Nicole said and what I could really feel or perceive was that it cleanses the pain. And when I went out of the room and had to make the decisions in my everyday life, they were so obvious. So I just decided and I was more... And that's also a difference between, okay, that's a gut feeling or I decide that cognitively. It was just so clear that I... that I take this and not that, or that I decide not for this and not for that. And it was not a cooking process, it was really a hunger strike. And I immediately had to think of Nicole's words, that she said, pain just cleanses the head, so to speak. But I also believe that you can experience this on different levels, whether you are more cognitively or physically.

[25:31]

For example, I take topics from everyday life. For example, a client has died. I don't think there are any differences. Yes, how people, or how you say it while sitting, that different conditions are physical, or that the head turns off. And with me, the head just always flies away, and I just have to think about my body, and so on. Or he sends signals to the neighbor. So, I would say that there are probably different considerations in one, whether one learns this on a physical level or on a spiritual level, or on the cognitive level.

[26:35]

and that maybe also belongs to this physical experience, was already mentioned, are pain or sentimental perception that you don't necessarily that they are not really typical pain, but maybe stand up for something else. So, for example, I practiced a lot with myself in the sessions. Okay, I have to accept it. And at some point I was even at, I surrender myself to these intense pains. I leave everything to you. You can do whatever you want with me. And that helped me, too. That's what I've understood about physical therapy so far. And then Gerhard and then me. When it comes to seeing who is coming and with what understanding, or when someone is coming to the Satsang for the first time, I think it is also important, if you are in a role, to make an introduction, to give instructions, to see where this person is in terms of understanding or access to body and spirit.

[28:12]

Generally speaking, we are also in a society where we work a lot with media. We have PCs, we have a television, and that's all. So if you watch TV, sit in front of the computer, on your cell phone, these are all activities that make a virtuality of the mind and strongly withdraw the attention from the body. So the body being in the process or in the in the encounter with these devices and the consciousness becomes more, I would say, virtual. And for me personally, when I started sitting, I think I never wanted to be a body. I thought sitting is, you park your body and do something with the spirit. And then there is no lighting and all the shit is gone. It's not like that for him. Then I found out that, fortunately, I got in touch with Misen relatively quickly via literature and was very happy because Misen emphasizes body posture very much.

[29:27]

And then I first noticed, wow, if I sit upright and not like this, then it helps me to stay awake while I meditate. So those were the first experiences. that I can use the body to influence mental states. And I think everyone comes in a different way and everyone comes in a different way. And what might also play a role is what kind of experiences there are with our own bodies in the world. Because there are many experiences, including violence, trauma, where we have a tendency to de-body ourselves, to separate ourselves from the body consciousness, from the body access. And I think that when people come with such experiences, it is very important to be very gentle. And I've learned more and more, so to speak, that wow, that's something very, very physical. Maybe even now, how I... or what I do when I do something, that it is more about the body than about what I understand as a spirit.

[30:39]

And in fact, the sashin was also the first thing. I had already done a short sashin in the other sangha before. Dekka Roshi then said, oh, it's still the sashin. And then I was there in October, December, last year. And I was very afraid of the pain that would come. I also thought that it was impossible to do it. In between I also thought that I would break down. But then I discovered that the pain was still here and now there is nothing left. And now it's here. And in between I got to know how that happens. And that's actually my practice. And in the meantime, also through other things that I still do, where it comes to body and mind, I'm losing more and more of the feeling of what the body is, what the mind is. I think Pekka Hoshi also said in the session that East Asian cultures have their understanding that it's like warm water and cold water, that it's like different conditions.

[31:42]

a substance and I also experience it more and more that I feel the others in my body or the resonances on it or that it's more like wow that's a gate through which I can go and But I didn't really find this perspective in the lyrics. I actually only got it through the practice or through the experience here in the sangha and the exchange. I think it's important to be aware of that, especially when newcomers come into contact. Roger gave a lecture yesterday about the reference point in which he described all the changing changes in our lives as the field of the spirit.

[32:51]

For me it is my reference point, but that is tied to the fact that it is all just water. For me the reference point is something that I call physically or actually physically. And you asked earlier, and then I thought again, for me it is so natural, how is it? And then I thought, if I were in Zazen, then then these are all physical dimensions, but not only bodies in flesh and bones, but also my energy body. So there are different levels of the body. And I go through body points, I go through an alignment, and then I let everything hang again and sink and sink. And then there is a... Yes, an evidential feeling or an arrival or an extension, and this is a very personal feeling of, yes, now...

[34:05]

It has almost always something to do with expansion and expansion. I call it physical, but maybe someone experiences something very similar and doesn't call it physical. And I think the important thing is, I think I know the picture so well, warm water, cold water. It was the other way around for me. Roshi talked about mind and I always thought, Where is he talking about? What is that? So exactly your energy of question I had turned around exactly. That is the one. And then I notice something that I work a lot with patients in my work. What makes it so clear with the body is, for example, when we get very strongly into an emotion. and then he's at the edge of, I'm going to take it off now, and so on and so forth. And when it comes to accompanying someone there, that he only sees the physical manifestations of this pain,

[35:09]

nimmt und denen Raum gibt, auch den Raum, den man dann ja auch geteilt herstellt in der Beziehung, aber auch in seinem Körper, und damit die ganze Story und das Drama wegfällt, weil die sind im Geist, dann finde ich das einen unglaublichen Weg, und für mich hat das eine Parallele zum Sitzen und zum Schlafen, also dass ich mich von den Inhalten, den Objekten des Geistes nicht irgendwie so kirre machen lasse, sondern wie an einen I would like to... I would like to ask you a question. Before that, I would like to ask you again the question, in what frame are we moving? Yesterday we listened to a very large framework, also under the aspect of how we want to continue to meet here, even without Roschi.

[36:23]

And maybe what we are doing right now is a form in which we deal with a certain topic. And I would like to point out the big context, because this is the last meeting here tomorrow, maybe with Horschel. How will it continue then? That's one thing. The other, Susanne, the question that you raise from my perspective, that is only to be answered in an experimental way. In a Qur'an it is written, only the transcript of the Qur'an, the spirit and the surrounding world. And in the Qur'an it is written, it made it so clear to me, everything that appears in the spirit is the surrounding world.

[37:26]

How much closer can the world come if it is already in us as an appearance in our spirit? Where do you want to make a distinction between material world and appearance in a spirit that is embodied? I am just trying to find approaches to make your question even more tangible. And the next step is, we are so close to this world through our steps of acceptance, that the first reaction to these impulses from the outside is always, always, always a physical reaction.

[38:28]

At this congress, where Roshi also reported, in the background, Solms, a former psychoanalyst, who is now dealing with, [...] The first reaction is a body language. Where do we want to make a distinction between spirit, perception, inner world, outer world? It always comes together. And then we begin to link it up in the sense of explanation. But the experience is always a whole. The experience at the same time includes my inner world, my spiritual world and the outer world. And we don't have a problem with that at all in everyday life.

[39:38]

Because the first moment, and Roshi spoke about this in his lecture, the first moment we experience is not dual. Everything else that is supposed to come out of it becomes dual. It can become dual. That's where the separation begins. The separation of the direct perception is always everything, everything inclusive. That would be a rough attempt to answer your question. May I answer that? Yes. My first session I did with you. And I still know very well how painful my shoulder was. I went to you and said, that wouldn't work. Back then I wouldn't have a day off or a half day off.

[40:40]

You looked at me like, why? And then I said, I already know. And you said, if you know, then it's good. And if I ask now, what did I know? I knew that I had closed my heart. And that I knew through this knowledge that when I open it, the pain is gone. Now I ask, what do I understand from the heart? This pump. That would be what I have to say.

[41:52]

I don't mean only myself as the one sitting here, or the one I am here, or... what I'm depicting here, but more broadly, I mean, how can I take this entire compendium to deal with the problem of this world, which we also had, somehow to carry with us, or to influence, or to withstand, or to stand up for it? It's not just personal, but I ask myself, what is my... Where am I? And for me it's the other way around. I don't understand why it's like that. It is the other way around.

[42:57]

I explain things to myself. I go a spiritual path. I explain things to myself from my understanding. I have already said this in another situation. The moment when things seem logical to me, my body lets go. It gives in. It's positive. It's positive. That's exactly what you asked me about. Yes, yes, go on. What you have described now, you describe that you have explained something, often with your knowledge, with your mind, and you feel it in your body. That's exactly the question you asked me. That's how it is.

[43:58]

Yes, and when I ask myself what this body is, what do I use it for? What is it for? Then I say, in this reverse order, By experiencing the logical, I am able to get into the present, to arrive at the present. And yet with what I said yesterday several times, with such simple things as the fourth pariah.

[45:09]

When we acknowledge that it is a continuum, then there is in the, I don't know, learning theory, this bottom-up and top-down. There are simply two ways to approach it. And you go like this, and I go like this. But it is not so important anymore. I also want to have the feeling that I am here on a lonely island. It just came to me in the sense that the word body, you called the decision body and suffering, I liked that the word body contains a lot of different things for me. This is both body to body. But what is so important to me in practice is also this body that is sitting here. And this is not my body that is sitting here, but I can also call it field.

[46:11]

But field is not right, but it is something physical. Because to sit here with all of you now is a physical experience. And if you were all gone, it would be completely different. Yesterday we also talked about rituals and the service, the recitation, the abrogation. And what fascinates me again and again is to enter exactly that level, this overall to experience and experience and experience each other in this moment that is constellating and manifesting, And I can't say that I feel it in my body as so, so, so, tension or relaxation or anything, but it's an area that I can't really put into words.

[47:17]

So I'm having a really hard time there. But that's what I... what always draws me back and where I have the feeling that I have arrived there. If that is possible, then I will experience the world, the whole body or something like that. And that can be in Sendo, that can be in the Buddha Dharma Hall or outside. That is also the body for me. Dharma body is also a body, but not a body to touch or a body in which a heart beats or something like that. You also spoke of energy body and I would like to use this word body for very different things, also like the heart body, for example. But I think it is so important to understand what we mean by that and When I listen to you, then you describe what seems logical to you.

[48:33]

There is logic in it, and logic is also associated with certain associations with me, which I understand as logic. But it seems like such a... It seems to be something that contains understanding and, as you said, also being able to let go. Something is changing, there is some kind of transformative process going on. That's what it's all about. The logic body. The logic body. Yes, the logic body, the understanding body. If I go through the skandhas, then it's absolutely logical for me. And I would never describe it that way. I would never say the five skandhas are logical for me, but they are logical for me. understandable, understandable, or experienceable, or not experienceable.

[49:37]

Yes, exactly. Yes, that's about it. Otherwise, this has made me very, very awake again and shaken me up, what you said, that we go on. I think we should also take that into focus. But now I haven't seen who has reported. You? Yes. Just briefly about further understanding of the body. For me, that was an experience in the October Sashin two weeks ago. That pain came again and I noticed that I was trying to keep my body like that. And then I had the picture, not only the picture, but also the experience of the Sashin body, that is, a shared physical presence. And then I was able to let my physical body relax and let it fall. That was wow. But what I also become more aware of is that my body is not really my property.

[50:45]

Of course, I make decisions when there should be piercings or whatever, but I don't decide when I sit next to you, for example, what you release in me. Your presence does something in my body. Conditions change and that's not mine. Where do I draw the line? That's becoming more and more clear to me. Of course I have to take care of my body, but I do something if I don't go there. I find it totally exciting, but I also feel this wake-up call. So what do we do next? And Olsi will ask us, either directly tomorrow or indirectly via email. He said yesterday that he would hold a lecture once a week.

[51:47]

And I don't know, I just did an online course, yes, over an app called Succo. And there you got a weekly lecture and also text and so on. And then there is an open platform where everyone can write a comment on it. And you can also comment on the comments. And that stays very clear. Then I thought to myself, oh, I could imagine that. And that those who can come right now, come. And those who cannot come, can come. gucken sich den an, der wird ja auch gespeichert, den muss man sich nicht live angucken. Und das ist vielleicht, was weiß ich, wenn er das einmal die Woche macht, dass man dann beim vierten Mal sowas wie eine Zoom-Konferenz macht, wo man dann die Fragen aus den letzten drei Vorträgen nochmal miteinander in ein Gespräch bringt, die man vorher ja auch schon als Kommentare vielleicht eingebracht hat, wo sich schon verschiedene so threads, so Stränge entwickeln zwischen Leuten und dann Yes, I can connect to that. When he said that, he also said that it would be personally unpleasant for him if we would continue to travel, only so that he could give a lecture.

[53:29]

That was the conclusion. And I thought at that moment, we would not only travel because of him, we would also travel because of all of us. dass viele von uns auch sagen würden, oh, wir kommen für eine ganze Woche, wenn in dieser Woche ein Vortrag von ihm stattfinden würde. Nach meinem Gefühl macht es einen Unterschied, ob er sozusagen diesen Raum hält mit seiner Person, oder ob er das nicht tut. Ich glaube, das ist so ähnlich, wie wenn man in einem Sesshin sitzen würde, und es ist kein Roshi dabei. or not a very experienced one. I think it's not good to joke about it without having someone there who really holds the room. I think if we meet like this, then the question would be for me too, who holds the room?

[54:31]

And Rossi does it in a wonderful way. But I would not only come to such a week because of Rossi, but because of me, because of us, and very strongly because of this room. And I don't even know how much input I would need from someone. I've gotten so much input in all these years. It's maybe always nice to have more. But this space is invaluable to us. And we still have it, and it's incredibly valuable to me. But I think that there is something in this space that this room is the essence. So, in a certain way, we keep it from him. And if he doesn't do it anymore, how do we continue?

[55:47]

Do we dare to do it without someone holding the room? Or do we have someone holding the room? In a certain way, we now have you, Gunnar, moderation. And is it what we think when we talk about continuation, that we continue with moderation, or is it about something else? These are the questions that come to me at this point. And yes, at the moment I have no answer, except that I would say to him, we would not only come to your lecture. I find it very exciting what you say, and I also notice it now. I think in the last Darmaville, where I was, it's been a while now, we also discussed that we have many good teachers.

[56:52]

It's not like there are no teachers. The idea that we just come together, And there is no one who holds this space. So I find it rather difficult. So it's a big challenge. Maybe also possible. But we have a lot of formats in which the space is also held. I notice that Gerhard, your presence and your input are very important to me and it has a different value than when someone else says something. I just say that as a teacher, as a researcher. For me, the question is, Baker Hoshi has withdrawn from the teaching.

[57:54]

Now this is the last doorstep. That doesn't mean that the teaching doesn't go on. The question is, how can we pick him up in a way and get him present again and again? Yes. Ich kann mich erinnern an das letzte oder vorletzte, ich weiß es nicht mehr, ich glaube, es war am Schluss, und da hat er gesagt, ja, How should we do this? Should we perhaps send a text beforehand? And he would, he could definitely imagine doing such things with us until he simply can't do it anymore. And I would simply suggest that we ask him to offer Doris Debsen again next year.

[58:57]

And I actually think that's a good idea, if we do something online, that it's a text. I can print it out, I can underline it, I can sit down there, that's material enough for me, as I do with koans. I am simply not able at all from screen to screen and interaction on screen, that is somehow too weak for me, so it does not work for me. I also print out everything else with which I really deal with. And for me that would be such a form now, that we have a text where he gives something in, look at us beforehand That's basically his input. And that we, through our practice in relation to the text, or even at all, as we have done now, continue to have a very lively and trusting conversation with each other, that, I think, is the new thing.

[60:08]

Something comes immediately, and we trust each other, where we stand. Okay, what do I do? What happens? So I would simply suggest that we ask him to continue. And that with the text is now also something that he suggested, which we once did, and I thought that was great. There were also things that I didn't really understand or things that suddenly turned out to be proxies between the last time and this time. Yes, there is the level, do you wish something? And you should also ask him. I agree with that. Only the basis is... What is our understanding as a group?

[61:09]

To put it simply, why do we want to continue to meet? You have already pointed out what these meetings mean in the context of the development of Uranus. And what Roshi, who always offered and kept it, offered and did, was always in connection with the development of Buddhism. And from that I derived, so to speak, for Göttingen, these things. that then became effective there, through these meetings. These were very strong impulses that then also emerged there, so to speak. But how do we understand ourselves in this tradition that Roshi has offered here for the last 20 years?

[62:17]

How do we understand ourselves without Roshi? And on this basis, I like it very much when we say, we will continue, we have developed self-confidence, and we would like to have you with us. But we have to, so to speak, do this kind of preliminary work. For me, Rosé is simply still alive. And as long as it is alive, I can't... So this actualization in the moment, For me, he is still alive, and he still holds this space, and I can't do anything if he's not there. Can you imagine how it would be if he wasn't there? You didn't mean exactly that, I know, but that's one aspect. But he has, in the last Dorset meetings, I found, more and more often focused on the choir work and has also, I think, told three times how it was back then when Suzuki came to San Francisco, that he only told choirs for a year and nothing else, no teaching activity, but only choirs.

[64:02]

And I went into it again and said that I have not been so warm with it so far, but I would like to want it now. I would like to want to get warm with koans. And I know that I can't do it alone. I've already tried it. I read it, but I don't have the feeling that it touches me. But I know through the winter twigs, where I have partly participated, that it can be very, very fruitful. And I would like to have the opportunity to do koan work. would also come once a month. And of course it would be nice if Roshi would be there, that's not a question at all, because he has so much understanding, so purely historically, when these things were created, but also in the interpretation of what it can be for my life and the indications that I can then do with it, it is incredibly valuable. And yes, that would be my wish to do core work with him. And with you, of course, in the group, of course.

[65:06]

I am also totally open. It doesn't really matter which label we put on it. If such conversations take place now, then I go out and have the feeling, please, it was fruitful. And even if we now ask ourselves, how does that fit into the feeling of the Johannishof, and the perspectives that are necessary, is a secondary question for me. So for me it's about the fertility of what we do here. And when Roger somehow gives impulses or says a few sentences, then it's something like a clear summary or something like that, it clarifies what I understood correctly.

[66:06]

Also ich bin mit Choren einverstanden, mit Texten einverstanden. Es ist mir alles egal, wenn er nur irgendwie im Hintergrund oder aus dem Hintergrund ab und zu mal hier in den Vordergrund kommt. On the other hand, the Johanneshof is the source of the place. It is our institution. It is our roof, our house, in which we practice. And I think that is very central. How do we take care of this house? With the people who live here, but also with those who come here, most of us. And how does our house develop? or our institution further. We belong to the house, we and those who live here. Exactly. So, people in quotation marks, yes, and that's where the essential thing has to take place. And then it is also carried outward in the forms and the right steps are taken.

[67:13]

I would like to talk about the word we. The word has been mentioned many times. What kind of self-understanding do we have? What kind of we are we talking about? And it has just been mentioned that there is something like this sphere has a kind of history. There were the winter twigs, then there were the Dermawheel meetings, now there is the doorstep zen, and this is perhaps the last one. What comes next? And somehow this we that we are talking about is something that has formed itself. And the doorstep then, which now stops, has a beginning. And it was actually connected with the idea that people meet here who bring experience from their own already experienced practitioners who may have sat in a session or who also commit to taking part in such a round throughout the year.

[68:33]

We had this sort of commitment in Winterzweige, which was even more pronounced in Dharma Wheel, and it was even more pronounced in Doorstep Zen. So, and there we somehow have something like a, also a line here. And I wonder, so to speak, also if we continue, do we continue with it, or is it something, so to speak, what, we say, that's what Roshi put in there, and when he stops, that also stops. And I think that's an interesting question for us. Das ist schon so, das glaube ich, das ist nicht ein Format, was funktionieren würde, wenn wir, sag ich mal, 50 Leute wären. Dann könnten wir nicht mehr im Kreis sitzen und nicht mehr so miteinander reden.

[69:33]

It is fixed on a certain size. And I don't think it would work as a useful beginner format if there were a large number of people in the middle who might be looking for their very first access to the brain. These are criteria for this we that we have pre-invented institutionally. If it goes on, I think the responsibility is with us, and I don't understand it, that we should think about how we formulate this we for the future. The responsibility is not with us now. Are we going to do it today and tomorrow? Do we pass this on to the directors of Johanneshof and say, Nicole, think of something? Do we just do nothing and say, oh, Roshi will come up with something?

[70:37]

Or... Telefonieren wir miteinander nächste Woche und schicken uns E-Mails hin und her zwischen denen, die da irgendwie sagen, mich interessiert das, was da gesagt wurde, und ich habe dazu eine Idee. Aber ich glaube, es ist auch etwas Institutionelles. Und es hat eine Form, und diese Form müsste ersetzt werden durch eine Folgeform. I think this is more from an external perspective. I have only been here for three days now. You just said it. I think that Roshi has given a foundation, a basis, and a great group is coming together here.

[71:41]

It is incredibly tangible. Roshi is not sitting here with us right now. We have great conversations, great discussions. We really need one more group to look up to, to listen to, if we can't actually learn from each other. And to have self-confidence in us as a group. I would like to see that. I would like to follow up on that, even though this is my first time working at the Birch Steps. I haven't been here in Sanger for a long time, because I know the topic where I finished my design therapy training, where it was also about, okay, this is a room that was offered to us by the trainees that we entered, and then it was over. And one of Joseph's friends said, now you have to cook yourself. And... And, Ulrich, what you said about Le Rocher holds the room.

[72:50]

Yes, he does. And that's a wonderful gift that you can enter there. And in the end, it's also about a larger context that we may have discussed yesterday and the day before yesterday. What can the Sangha do to be there for the world? In the end, how can each and every one of us to contribute to opening a room. And maybe that's also because you said you could go from one room to the next, so to speak, which intention connects this step. And you also said, shall we wait for Roshi to do something or what can we do? And I think this intention, what can we do to open the room as we succeed, so to speak, that the connection can be from one room to the other. I would like to add a little word to your beautiful sentence.

[73:54]

Now we have to cook ourselves. Now we have to cook ourselves. I would like to add something to what Ulrich said. There is a structural level that he described with this we and the historical development. And I also have the feeling that there is a potential that we take a little more responsibility. einen Raum zu benennen, zu organisieren.

[74:45]

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