Was that it? Were any of you there? Also, es hat mich erstaunt, dass dieses Verständnis von Raum, über das du gesprochen hast, dass das wirklich etwas zu sein scheint, was wir als Gruppe miteinander gut verstehen mittlerweile. And it seems to me that this understanding of space that you were teaching us is something that we really have a feeling, got a feeling for and understanding together and also can practice together and acknowledge. Yes. So we are knowing the cultural difference, we know how to feel separated by space, but also we know how to enter spaces, how to experience spaces, how to share spaces.

[01:10]

But you've been doing this with me since 80, what? 87. 87. Really? Yeah. It was that late. Yeah. I mean, not that early. So maybe others don't have that feeling. Yeah, maybe. Yeah, go ahead. So another feedback to the Taisho? Yes, please. So for me this was really... enlightening in some way to get presented the two ways of connectedness. And I'm asking myself whether Buddhist concepts could also be used for getting an understanding of the shadow side.

[02:52]

For example, the shadow of too much connectedness. Why not? Warum nicht? It's something I... If a question like that occurs to you, it's a good sign that something knowing in you is speaking to you. So it's already, just by surfacing as a question, it's already the beginning of an investigation. And that's how we develop our practice, by investigating these things which... appear to us, which we then say, if it's appeared, let me take it seriously.

[03:54]

Okay. Okay. Yes? I understood one thing in your lecture, that we trust the knowledge that does not come from consciousness. I have understood, one thing I understood in your ratio was this knowing, which is not consciously understanding, that this knowing is something that we can trust. Yes, or that we should trust consciously. I already do that somehow, but I thought, this consciously saying, and also to consciously trust this and to bring an intention to it that it's something that you can trust and only trust this and then I went to the center to look for your cushion

[05:20]

Without thinking. And then I stood in front of Ottmar's place and I thought it was your place. I'm sorry to be using your cushion. I hope not. And one place further, there were two cushions. But I thought it wasn't your place where the two cushions are. But on the other hand, the cushion on... On Ottmar's place I really didn't want to take it. And then I went back and then I thought there is no cushion there. And then Andreas showed up and he said, there are two cushions at the place.

[06:33]

And then I noticed that I mistook what actually is your place. And then I thought, maybe I should turn on my brains one more time. Once in a while. Once in a while. It would be good. I mean, trusting your body maybe sometimes isn't so good in this case. When you mix up kiss and cushions. We have an expression, kissing cousins. So kiss and cushions. We have kiss and cushions. Okay. Does anyone remember when I used to speak fairly often about the four functions of self? It's not the same like the functions of consciousness, isn't it?

[07:36]

No. But there is an overlap, isn't there? Well, I hope so. Yes. Be careful not to raise your left hand. Okay, go ahead. So, of course, there is a distinction to how we describe the functions of self in psychotherapy. And an important aspect that I... And one important aspect that I missed a little bit is regulation. Steering. [...] So when the self isn't very much developed, it can be flooded by emotions and feelings?

[08:55]

You have a lack of control of impulses. So I imagine if I wouldn't have a self, I would be very impulsive, as I sometimes am. Okay. Well, I also often used to speak about the fact that in practically speaking, you need a strong sense of self in order to practice meditation. I have also often spoken about the fact that, practically speaking, you really have to have a strong self in order to be able to practice. I also remember in this context the functions of the self, which you mentioned in another sentence. But I also remember another sentence you mentioned in that context, referring to the self. Way back in Haus der Stille and all these teachers today.

[10:18]

Was praktizieren wir? Praktizieren wir ein non-being or well-being? Mm-hmm. What do we practice? Do we practice non-being or well-being? Mm-hmm. What I am asking myself is really, breath and space and all that has been described, to what extent does this not still take place in a well-being practice? And what I'm asking myself, breath and space and all the things that were brought up, isn't this still happening within a kind of well-being sphere? This is a question I ask myself at the moment. Is going to this non-being like a process where you could say that steady water raises the stone? Is approaching this non-being, is it some kind of, or could you say it's like the steady drop?

[11:38]

Surrenders? It makes a hole in the rock when water is dripping. Is that an effect of our practice, that we always have such a small alternative, such a small possibility to find an anchor in this non-thinking self? Is this an effect of our practice that we, in small ways, we find entrance to anchoring ourselves in this experience of non-being? Non-being or not in this conscious thinking world. Or does it need a consistent practice or does it require a kind of consequential practice to step out of this thinking consciousness world?

[12:46]

That's a question I ask myself. How consistent... What the Diamond Sutra also says, no imagination of time, no imagination of oneself. These are sentences that one can simply understand, but not so quickly implement in one's life. So this is a question I'm posing to myself. How consequential can we practice? And also taking into account the teaching of the Diamond Sutra where it said no self, no being, and how can really This can be practiced like this.

[14:07]

So I still have this idea. I have still this idea that the one that was at Johanneshof half an hour ago is the same one that is sitting here now. That is in the categories of time and ourselves. And that is the question I am asking myself at the moment. How do I turn this on more consistently? This is within the categories of self and time, and this is the question that I'm asking myself, how can I soften that up in a consequential way? Und wenn ich dich so in den, auch so wie ich das verstanden habe, deine Entscheidung so nicht mehr weiterzulehren, oder jetzt auch vielleicht Dostek oder kein Dostek,

[15:20]

And as I have understood you, your decision not continuing to teach like that and also thinking about doorstep or no doorstep... And then my feeling is that you are waiting, somehow waiting for a challenge out of that no-self sphere. Maybe that is enough right now. Yes. Mir erscheint, als gäbe es eine fünfte Funktion des Selbst. It seems to me there is a fifth function of self, which somehow glues together the other four, and this is intention.

[16:31]

So, when I experience intention, perhaps for the first time, as a function in myself, Maybe at first I experience intention as a function of self. And if intention is taken out of the self, then it somehow taken into the body and it starts acting on its own. And the self maybe starts to trust this bodily intention. then the other functions, such as continuity, or to make a distinction, or to make something forbidden,

[17:38]

And the other functions like continuity and establishing connection and separation and so on, I find they start to become much more observable. And the self is no longer constructed in such a... Stability. Yeah, it doesn't have such a fixed stability. And that leads to, that in many activities, I have the impression, that they don't spring from the self. And this leads to that in many activities I have the feeling that they don't arise from myself.

[18:44]

Okay, yes. I would like to refer to what you said, Orana, I experience it like layers of self that I can perceive. And I think for some time I also had this ideal to somehow get rid of the self in the sense of there is none at all there. Since I experienced this in the form of a pretty crisis, I then learned to appreciate that something also has an existence and that I also use it as an instrument. So it's good that I remember who I was or what I did.

[19:52]

And as I have experienced this loss of self in a kind of crisis, I learned to value the stability of being able to experience something like a safe, And uh, um, This other possibility I experience as the option to deepen the moment into... So first there arises a layer that when I'm more aware, there arises more aliveness. And I would describe that with well-being Zen. but there is also something behind that which doesn't leave me alone somehow but it somehow brings me into trouble but it's also good that this happens

[21:21]

Okay, thanks. Joseph? I personally feel that like a paradox. Deutsch, bitte. Ich sehe das prinzipiell als paradox. The more I'm grounded, and on this spot and the more I've got stability and the more I am here on this point and the more I am rooted the more stability I have and exactly this stability I need to be able to let go of something else to be able to let go of concepts and exactly this stability I need And I need exactly this stability to be able to let go of concepts.

[22:46]

And so what I did practice with Russell and myself in the last four years is to ground myself more and more to work with sit bones, with my big joints and lower back and the hara and the lower chakras and to intentionally sink into the earth and the more I feel well with that and the more I find my seat, the more I can let go of the rest, identifications, concepts,

[23:53]

and the more I can let go of identifications and concepts. And I don't know if it is the true Unshu breathing which he was teaching us. But it is, you keep some strength in your lower belly, even by even exhaling, and you do a betonung. An emphasis on the exhale and on the strength of the lower belly. And he told that, and he told us that some Zen monks traditionally do that over hours. that unshub breathing and my experience was you do a tremendous energy, build up a lot of energy and a lot of stability and this is

[25:19]

This is a precondition to let go, otherwise you get lost. And so that was what I'm doing the last four years. And before I really had felt lost. And that brought me to the point. And this is a paradox. The more I'm here, the more I'm in my physical body and grounded in the earth, the more I can let go of all of that. Yeah, I think that's true. And when I say that yoga culture works with the torso, that's partly building up the power in the hara through breathing the way you're speaking about. And when I say that the yogic culture works with the upper body, then it is about building up the power in the hara through this work with the breath as you describe it. Yes. One advantage to practicing with somebody like Russell, who's a good teacher, is he takes a few things and develops them very strongly.

[26:41]

And my view is more a lot of seeds scattering a lot of seeds in the hope you do something with them. Yes, because I practice the way you just said, and I should emphasize some things more. Yes, so I'm glad Russell is doing what he's doing. I somehow heard your voice from the off sometimes during his lectures. He is oversimplifying practice. But is that what I needed? Yeah. Well, no, yes. It's good he practices here. I'm glad he likes to practice here. Okay, hi.

[28:00]

I wanted to contribute that I experience it a bit differently from you, Ockmar. For me, the starting point is a deep inner request to... deep in a request to be close to actuality. And it follows somehow logically that I have to stay with that. And I know that from life, learning instruments, writing, that I have to keep doing it in order to learn it. And well-being... well-being or being frightened, these are just side effects.

[29:16]

Thank you. Thank you. Yes. I would like to make a small remark. I have recently deepened my knowledge in the field of psychology I wanted to contribute a small remark. Recently, I deepened my... I studied the self from the point of view of psychology. We already checked that out. And I noticed that Do you want me to translate myself? Do you want me to translate myself? I had three larger books which I consulted, so to speak.

[30:27]

One was a habilitation of the history of self and the psychology of the self. Eins war ein Buch über das postmoderne Selbst, about postmodern self. Und eins hat das Selbst reduziert auf selbstkonzept, and one would use the self to self-concept, arguing that the self is to be a concept and to not, you can't grasp actually what it is. Three of them had more than 1,000 references. Ich habe das nicht genau ausgerechnet, aber ich würde sagen, die Überschneidung der Literaturstellen ist ungefähr 30%.

[31:44]

So the overlap of the references is by 30%. I didn't really figure it out. I just estimated. Und das ist ja nur für die Psychologie. Also da ist die ganze Philosophie überhaupt noch nicht drin. Also die westliche Philosophie. That's only for psychology. Philosophy is not included. Western philosophy. And then we also have, what do I know, Eastern philosophy. Then we also have Eastern philosophy. And I say that because what I appreciate about our practice is that, not especially Roshi's effort, but in the meantime, one might say, our own effort, I mention this because what I appreciate so much about our practice and especially your teaching, but maybe we can say our...

[32:47]

our endeavor as a community to find fascicles or to rephrase or to somehow to twist and tweak the words we have to find new concepts or to co-create ways to dig into this and to work with it in a different way. One concept that sort of Gagne somehow is a little older. It's from Harry Stack Sullivan, some Harry Stack Sullivan interpersonal theory of psychiatry, which was edited after his death somehow.

[34:07]

Harry Stack Sullivan, . Yeah, I've read him. Yeah, I thought so. And he has, I don't quite get it, but he has, so to speak, a self-system, a self-system, that simplifies, so to speak, A self system in analogy to the immune system. If we can't change something, if we can't approach the world from the self, then we change it. We have an automatism that distorts it. So anytime we are not able from the point of view of ourselves in which the manner, the self-directed manner in which we

[35:22]

address or try to understand the world if something is not sort of digestible or if we're not able to metabolize, then we distort our perceptions. And that's the system of the self somehow. And someone referred to it, then I'm finished. Someone referred to it and said, and with that we are in pain ourselves. That was Lovinger, Jane Lovinger, who said, that we sometimes have such an autoimmune reaction of the self, and I think that's a bit consequential, She said it's like an autoimmune reaction of the self, and this somehow relates to what we maybe are talking about sometimes, although she didn't know anything about Buddhist concepts. So the autoimmune reaction of the self hinders development, ripening, ego development, that was her topic,

[36:53]

the development of the self is hindered by the self in this point, and she described this. And if we relate your teachings or our communal endeavor somehow to this, perspective we could say that what we are trying to do is to find phrases somehow, twist and tweak words together with practicing zazen and allow for concepts to pop up that help us to find a way around or through this autoimmune reaction. I'm sorry that was so long. I recently had a meeting in Consciousness, and I had a very interesting question.

[38:13]

Someone entered the room, there were seven or eight people. I would ask this question in this room, I don't know how many there are, 30. Was würdest du sagen, sitzen wir in dem Raum 36? Is someone going to translate this? Yeah, sorry. I'm just asleep now. Wake me up when you need me. I just read a book about a conference, and in this conference someone asked, when I asked into that room, maybe there had been seven people sitting there, So I want to ask the same question in this room here. There are 30 people sitting here. Was würdest du sagen, sitzen hier 30 Selbste? So what would you say? Are there sitting here 30 selves? Und jetzt habe ich für mich unformuliert die Frage. Or should I change the question a little bit for myself?

[39:17]

Or would I say, here in this room, there are sitting, hier in diesem Raum sitzen 30 momentane Aktivitäten. Und das macht einen riesen Unterschied. And that's, are there 30 activities, momentary activities sitting in that room? And the question simply to ask and to keep this question in this room makes a huge difference. And I tend to say, there are also 30 of us sitting in this room. And I still have this idea, there are also 30 selves sitting here in the room, but what does it mean to say there were 30 activities sitting here in this room? I hope I haven't forgotten you. Maybe we are all 30. Or less. Then it doesn't matter. Well, I guess that in general I feel there's 30 activities sitting here.

[40:20]

And I add self now and then. Since the largest demographic in the Dharma Sangha in Europe is therapists, and some of the persons who are therapists have been practicing with the Dharma Sangha and with me for 40 years, So I've hoped that the therapists would get together at some point and begin to discuss among themselves how the concepts and craft and practices, sometimes I say craftists, the crafts and practices of Zen can benefit, add to, open up, et cetera, therapeutic practice.

[41:50]

And what can therapeutic practice and the huge number of people thinking about the self in our Western society bring into our Zen thinking. Very good. Thank you. And Alexander has been one of the people trying to see if we can get such a group together. And there have been a couple of meetings. But I guess I think now it's probably too early.

[42:52]

People are still not ready to do that, to move out of their therapeutic fundamental therapies as a therapist and do more than add And a few things from practice. But what do you think? Do you think it's too early? Alexander? In general, I would say, no, it's not too early. But there are some obstacles, maybe. We would need a project that we're working on, that we agreed on.

[43:56]

that might help to get the ball rolling somehow, so gain momentum, that's strong enough to overbridge the valleys in between the work, because it's additional to what? Deutsch, bitte. I think it's not generally too early. I think we only need projects that we work on, where the momentum is built so that we can also work. I add one aspect. One difficulty that I see, Hans and I have also spoken a bit, One obstacle that I can identify, so to speak, is the difficult to let go of psychological context when approaching the whole topic.

[45:23]

because we're so used to, as psychologists, at least as I perceive discussions among psychologists or psychotherapists in general, they have their theories, their schools, which they had to defend against different schools. That's their history, and that's their point of identification as a psychoanalyst or psychologist. behavioral therapist, whatever. And that makes it difficult to develop a habit even for Zen practitioners to let go of their psychological concepts. That's one obstacle. But that's not an impediment that cannot be overcome, but it's there. I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know.

[46:28]

I don't know how it is with the other people, but they have defended each other and thus they have become more and more firm and are also part of their own identification as I am such and such a psychologist or psychotherapist, I am something, I don't know, humanist or psychoanalytist or therapist and so on. And there I see a difficulty. And somehow it may have to do with the fact that even for Zen practitioners, psychologists and psychotherapists, it is not easy to let go of these concepts and, so to speak, new ones. Yes, Hans? I don't think that's a problem. You have to speak a little more loudly. At least for the rounds I was part of, I found that everyone has the interest to examine what we are speaking about.

[47:58]

Examinate. Examinate. Examine. Examine. Yes. So, at least for the rounds in which we sat together, I always had the impression that when someone spoke, all the interests of the inner light had to be investigated. And I think the people who were there, it would have been boring if we had started a school dispute now. And I think that people would have been, in a way, bored when we had started the struggle of schools. This is a boring topic. Okay. But I don't think that we had or would have a school dispute. I just think that psychology as a science has developed over the school dispute. And that has led to the fact that concepts have been established. That's my point. And that's how I explain to myself that it's difficult. I had the impression that there was a great interest in the school dispute.

[49:00]

Well, my conceptual understanding, or at least my informed understanding of psychotherapy, really kind of stopped from around the 70s. And when I did a lot of reading and studying and trying to grasp the basic positions of the different schools up to that point, but what my experience has been, and those of you who are psychotherapists could correct me or confirm what I'm saying, is it seemed to me that that psychotherapy at some point in the 90s around,

[50:13]

began to be more a craft which individuals and groups of people developed. It wasn't so much rooted in a particular school or concept, but it became a craft where people were learning to do things not rooted in some kind of theory about it, but it was a craft. And that craft became much more sophisticated than the theories. And since I see Zen practice as really more of a craft than a practice, it felt very good to me that I thought we could have some richness. So my emphasis has been to share as much as I can of my own experience of practice and the craft of practice. and at the same time encourage us as a Sangha to investigate our own experience in life and professions in order to further evolve our own craft of practice.

[51:51]

For example, what you brought up, Ulrich, I would tend to think of intention as part of examining continuity. And then, but the way I spoke about intention yesterday as a subtle body that you're living within, that is the form of mind itself, that is not in psychological categories. And years ago, when I used to accept going to conferences, which I started to some extent again doing now that I'm semi-retired, Yeah, I'm not on YouTube and all those things.

[53:07]

Do you think I should do that? Yes. Really? No. We should make you two pee up. What? We should make you two pee up. What? You should make you two pee up. Well, I guess that's what I'm doing. This is the inner tube. Yeah. Yeah. The reason I haven't allowed any, this is an aside, the reason I haven't accepted any filming going on while I'm speaking, and there have been some efforts to do that, and I've sort of nixed it.

[54:08]

If I'm being recorded, at some point accepted, for me that's mostly a kind of reference point. If you missed a lecture, you can listen to the audio. But if there's filming going on right now while I'm speaking, it sounds like I'm communicating to the larger world and not to this group. And I want to speak to this group, not to imaginary people who might watch the film. Now with YouTube and all and the internet around, it's almost easy to be a celebrity. And somebody's, you know, I have 70,000 friends.

[55:28]

Oh, really? Nice. Yeah. So I don't want to be a celebrity. I want to be known by people who can know me. Yeah, so maybe I was wrong, but I don't do it. I mean, I know Tibetan and other teachers who every lecture is broadcast all over the world. But I want us to belong to each other. Yeah. And You brought up well-being and non-being. It's that my contrasting those two It's a kind of obvious contrast.

[56:34]

From my criticism of much of what I see as Buddhist teaching around, as I see it as a teaching of well-being, and there's nothing wrong with well-being, it just doesn't have much depth. But then the alternative, non-being, I don't think well-being and non-being are fruitful contrasts. And well-being sounds a hell of a lot nicer than non-being. We're practicing non-being, you fools. I prefer to practice well-being. So I've dropped speaking about well-being and non-being.

[57:38]

Also habe ich damit aufgehört, über well-being und non-being zu sprechen. And it's an understandable delusion or understandable view of practice for most people. Und es ist eine verständliche Sichtweise der Praxis für einige Leute. And one of the problems I see is that for many people, if your initial contact with thinking about yourself and your life and your relationship to others has been psychological, it's very difficult to free yourself from that. And to the extent which I do notice occasionally, I don't spend much time at it, but notice what other Buddhist, Tibetan and Zen and Theravadan and Vipassana teachers are doing. As many are basically teaching psychology with the veneer of Buddhism.

[59:05]

And there's people I've been practicing with in this Sangha, none of you are here, but who are practicing a lot, are informed about Buddhism, but basically their experience of the world is psychological, not dharmic. And for years in the 80s, I was often invited to conferences to speak about... I think they asked me because they wanted me to speak about the difference between psychology and mindology. I think it's a fruitful distinction, as it used to be. But as psychotherapy has evolved more into as I said a craft rather than theories, I think the distinction between mindology and psychology is less useful.

[60:45]

But I do think that the discussion we're having now is good. I think we should break soon. I'd like you to think about, since there's going to be one more winter grant, not winter branches, doorstep zen. If you had this doorstep zen to do over, would you do it differently than we've done it? And what shall we do tomorrow? I'll do Doksans tomorrow morning. But in general, we have one more morning in sessions until lunch.

[61:46]

So what would you recommend the next, and I think the last, doorstep zen should be like? Has this been fruitful for you so far, and how could we have done this so it is more fruitful? Okay. Any last minute pearls of wisdom? Oh, a pearl over there. It's your white hair, I know. Not from the perspective of the therapist, but a potential client. Yes. So reciting the Heart Sutra in the morning, what comforts me or brings peace somehow is that the self is composed of different parts and they can change.

[63:23]

And we heard that Suzuki Roshi talked about attitudes and it also became clear from what you were talking about today and yesterday that the essential things that bring about the suffering in my daily life Unwissenheit, Neid, Missgunst. Eifersucht. Greed and not knowing and jealousy and what else? That's enough to cause a lot of trouble. That's enough to cause a lot of trouble. And that I can perceive these poisons of mind and that I can bring my mind to rest like it's possible to do here.

[64:55]

And this is the blessing of this place for me. And there is only... Only one thing? Slowly getting older, somebody said, slowly you are seeing these three mountains getting closer, old age, sickness and death. And... And friends get sick and die and also the parents died. And how you can deal with that and in spite of that experience joy of life. Yes, luckily it's possible. It's nice to see you both, but I'd like to see you more often.

[66:15]

the topic of death and of grief we were dealing with that a lot during the past years and also impermanence and for some time there was a shadow on our life because of that And I realize that I have to make a decision, that despite this suffering, this transience, I have to make this Joy of Life. And I noticed that I have to make a decision that in spite of that, of the suffering and the grief, there can be the joy of life and both can be beside each other.

[67:45]

And to learn, being able to learn, to experience this more deeply. Also gratefulness. This is our path of learning. Good. Okay. Thanks. Thank you for translating. Your welcome.

[68:16]

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