Now, sometimes I, you know, I think I speak in a little too much detail. And sometimes it's a little hard to translate. As Nicole says, I sometimes put two or three constructions or contexts in a single sentence. But it's partly I'm talking to myself. particularly when I'm speaking about something I've never spoken about before, for instance, although I've felt about it, thought about it. Like the sensorial establishment of a relational space. And so then I get... I start talking to myself.

[01:20]

Because part of my... But also part of my motivation, I feel it may be seeds, seeds that are useful to you. In the way I work anyway, I find seeds very useful. And I used the term at some point, imaginal space, which I think I should explain what I mean by that.

[02:21]

But right now I'd like to stop and see if there's anything I said about the establishing of a sensorial space or anything else that you would like to or could help me by speaking about. Is there anybody here? Nobody. You're being Zen, though. That's a Zen answer, isn't it? I'm still with this morning, and I'm still with two things at the same time, first with the trauma,

[03:33]

And on the other hand, I'm always busy with space. That's the difference for me. I'm still with what you spoke about this morning, and there are two things simultaneously that I'm wondering about. And one is the question about trauma, and the other is what about space? I always take it this way. When I am in my thinking, I would not say in my thinking, I am not in my thinking space, in my thinking, with past, present, future concepts, there is not much space at all. And then there is probably the other moment, when we speak of mindfulness and perception, then suddenly the term space comes along and it suddenly goes on. And for me, when I am in thinking, and I don't say thinking space, but when I'm in thinking with past and present and future and everything, so forth, then there's no sense of space in it.

[04:52]

But when we speak about attention and mindfulness, then there's a further ingredient, which is that space somehow is added, the feeling of space is added. This is what happens when I go to Brütte or come to Johanneshof and sit there for a few days and I come out, then this sea space is there, but I don't think about the space so closely, but I am surrounded by this space. And that's what happens when I go to Lütte or to Johanneshof and we just sit together for a few days and this feeling of more space is there but I don't think about it. And so I'm trying to translate this all the way to the question of trauma, which that if the space is always there, but I make it narrow through my concepts, And I experienced it like this in very dramatic, traumatic situations, that it narrowed down further.

[06:21]

And the trauma, shall I say, is a space that is much, much narrower, and my own experience is in dramatic and traumatic situations that then the space gets even narrower and narrower very tight but at the same time the emotions in them move much faster And these were some thoughts about Harald's question from before. and other people said to me that I would not survive and then it became clear to me that Zen simply re-opens this room through which you get your life energy

[07:22]

And then it can be that you go back in, but you have a connection with the house again. When I take the picture for myself, in the trauma it is very narrow. Normally we are a little further, but we are still trapped. And on the other hand, we then find one of the endless distances that Buddha perhaps said. So when sometimes I've been sitting and other people would say to me, sitting with my traumatic experience, and other people would say to me, there's no way you'd survive that. And that somehow made me aware that my own experience is that Zen sitting widens the space. So if I translate that feeling, then there is some sense that in trauma space is very tight, and normally space is a little wider, but still pretty constricted, but Zen opens space.

[08:30]

You said a lot. I'll try to come back. Let's hear if anybody else has something to say. Neither am I. But I'm very glad you're here. I would like to comment on this beautiful term, thinkergy.

[09:35]

Beautiful. Amusable. Benutzbar vielleicht. My profession makes me think a lot, too. And that costs energy. I notice that. But what I also notice is if I think with someone together, if it happens dialogically, then Then it gives me energy. And then I have a feeling that what you spoke about this morning, that a shared space occurs.

[10:42]

I think that's something that one by oneself can produce. It happens through communication. Okay, good, thank you. I feel the same way. May I connect to that? I just thought it is what makes us first of all that we need the theological to even come into existence. I work a lot with children and grandchildren and with the early relationships and in order to be able to let go later of that, it needs, if I understand this correctly, first of all, this primordial

[12:07]

I would like to add to that. I work a lot with infants and small children, and my feeling is that we need that dialogical space initially in order to exist, first of all, and maybe even to try it. Yeah, I understand. You were going to say something. Please. Yes, the space that I create and that is created in the therapeutic situation and working with it all the time. To think about it and to investigate it, and that's one of the gifts that this profession is giving to me.

[13:20]

As a practitioner, because it makes me... I also believe that it happens easily, it doesn't go any other way, and we can't do it without the life that has just been said. But as a practitioner, I can So I agree we need this space and we can't live without it. And it also simply happens. But as a practitioner, I'm noticing that much of my practice also flows into evolving or unfolding this space. And that is... Yes, I can feel very strongly in it that it goes far beyond the dialogical and thus also me and at this point most of all a And I can feel that it goes far beyond the dialogical concept and therefore also gives me a taste of an infinite space.

[14:41]

It goes beyond or it's just different? No, like the dialogical, it goes beyond, I would say. It's like there is a creation, but I can feel like this is the part where maybe I'm active. I create it just like you said it. I feel my sitting bones and some kind of erectness in my body, blah, blah, blah. And then I open this up and lean back a little bit. So this is this kind of you and me space. But in doing this, I feel so much informed. from and through a field which is beyond. Okay. Go ahead. Well, there is this more I-you-related and that I relatively also in the therapeutic situation like open and install and also open and at the same time there is but

[15:45]

dadurch, indem ich das tue und mich selbst ja wie ein bisschen zurücklehne, einen Zugang zu einem Feld, das mich oder uns oder den Prozess informiert, zu dem ich sonst keinen Zugang hätte. Well, you know, I can't say anything in some kind of general way about therapeutic relationship to trauma because that's not my experience. But I assume that, for instance, if this woman came to Johanneshoff, Often enough that I could see her several times. I know that what I would do is sort of try to intend to, not try, intend to

[16:48]

Does this somehow make sense? See the spaces as which she's constructed. And then I would notice which spaces had room for me to enter. And which spaces were light or gray and so forth, and some color, which I could relate to in various ways. And doing this is something which I would also call an imaginal space. And I would see if there's a feel, if there's a space that

[18:11]

that's turned in on itself. Let's say an event horizon which once you go over it she can't get out of it. Do you all know where the term event horizon came from? It comes from the exploration of the black holes. And the study of the black holes and the mathematics that went into studying the black holes was parallel to the development of the nuclear weapons. And one of the things that's interesting is the Einsteins and other scientists who worked on these problems.

[19:32]

They couldn't believe that really there was this singularity of a black hole. Because the singularity is understood to mean it's not part of the universe, it's something separate from the rest of the universe. Separate in the sense that it doesn't have any relationship to anything else. Anything that starts in a relationship disappears into it. So Einstein and others, Snyder and other people, Oppenheimer, they couldn't really quite believe this because they were still in an implicitly Newtonian world. They couldn't believe their own mathematics. And they couldn't believe the experiments which suggested their mathematics were right.

[20:53]

So you have these super smart, completely open, compared to most of us, persons. They also can't believe the evidence of their own work and life. So finally they had to recognize that there's a point at which the star really completely collapses. It doesn't remain a dwarf star. It's like another world in the midst of our world. Well, I think, I mean, I don't like to use science metaphorically to talk about practice. It's against my rules. But, I mean, as I say, I don't like using science or psychology as a Trojan horse to sneak Buddhism into the West.

[22:14]

But I do think sometimes traumas, depending on when they started in childhood or how powerfully they've affected us at a cellular level, If there's an event horizon, sort of like that, once it starts, you're stuck in it. And the rest of your reality starts being sucked into it. Now let me say something about that we need to, as practitioners, we need to see the problem and start freeing ourselves from the problem.

[23:39]

The problem is Newtonian coordinates Excuse me, I didn't hear you The problem is Newtonian coordinates of time and space We think basically, and we do practically in consciousness, Western consciousness particularly has been trained to think that way, that there's a universal time that's out there and a universal space that's out there, like a container. Wir denken praktisch gesehen, und das wurde uns auch so beigebracht, dass es eine universelle Zeit gibt, einen Zeitstrahl gibt, und dass es auch universellen Raum gibt. Also, das Raum ist so wie ein Behälter, der einfach da draußen ist. And so ist das nicht.

[24:42]

Okay. All right, now, to get a conceptual, the simplest way to get a conceptual grasp of this, I think, Which is the Big Bang. The Big Bang didn't happen in space. It created the space as it happened. Der Urknall hat nicht im Raum stattgefunden, sondern hat den Raum, in dem er passiert ist, selber erschaffen. Whatever that means, the conception is useful. In other words, this desk creates the space which it is. This and me and you and so forth.

[25:45]

Now, you may, of course, you may feel that you came into this room and you didn't create it, you know. Andrea created it. Well, somebody owned it before you. So you're moving into an already created space. But since everything is an activity, This room is being created right now. The walls are going to fall apart. They won't be here in 100 years. She can't afford the repairs. Now the cabinetmaker who made this, what's the word for cabinetmaker? Tischler oder Schreiner. A Shriner in America is one who wears a little hat that belongs to the Shriner.

[26:56]

Anyway, this Tishla or Shriner created this. And he did the inlays on the side of that bookcase. So that bookcase actually creates space that's a little different than if it was just shelving. So you, for instance, you may not feel the space or you may feel it more at Johanneshof or Rütte. So you're like a shriner. Are you creating space or are you just letting space be? But if right speech in Buddhism, its root means breath speech.

[27:59]

The more your breath is part of your speaking, the more likely it's to be true. So, if you now, sitting there and working, if you now feel your thinking and writing in relationship to your breath, Wenn du jetzt, während du da sitzt und arbeitest, dein Denken und Schreiben in Beziehung zum Atem spürst, and you get used to that as a habit, und du dich daran als Gewohnheit gewöhnst, and a habitation, you begin to find you're creating that space yourself, and it's not only at Johannesdorf or Ruta. And the space at Johanneshof is created by breath and pace. Okay. I only wanted to point out that in the traumatic event what you've just described is like cut off.

[29:46]

Yeah, I understand. I just wanted to use what you said as a way of saying some other things. Okay. Anything else? Should we take a break soon? Where should we go afterwards? I think we can go to a marginal space. And although I don't usually, very rarely even, bring traditional koans into a non practice non-Dharma seminars. I thought it might be interesting to bring some aspects of one of the Shoyuroku koans into our discussion.

[30:49]

And if you have any other ideas or suggestions, they should be filed with me before we finish the break. Yes. I don't know if that fits. I have been constantly busy with a book that I have read, which has touched me incredibly. And that has something to do with this identity. I'm not sure if this really fits in, but I keep thinking about a book that also spoke about entities, entities moving towards change, and how change meets entities, or creates them.

[32:15]

Okay, the book is not about that, but it just touches that feeling. Well, you know, for me to come in and I have to see the book, probably it's in German, right? Okay. But most people use entities as a synonym for things. And the word, at least in English, entity means an entirety which is not subject to change. So I don't make a distinction between things and activity, but entityness and activity. But I present this, you know, sort of like activity and entity and blah, blah, blah. But it's a problem I saw 40, 45 years ago.

[33:18]

And I just did not see how to speak about everything is an activity. I tried many ways. Like this is lying on the Zafu, which is an activity. That lying on the Zafu is an activity. And I can pick it up, which is an activity. And it was designed and made as an activity. And it was made for a particular activity. But it can be used for other things. And my perception of it is an activity. So I spoke about it in such ways over and over again. Then using words like interdependence, interindependence, interemergence,

[34:47]

Intermergence. Yeah, etc. And I just never thought of the power that you give to activity by contrasting it to entity. Because activity is a word you can't kind of capture, at least in English, and so ordinary, I couldn't use it, didn't know how to use it. Ah, it took me, it was more than a, it was almost a decade ago, I don't know when exactly, when I suddenly saw the power that can be given to the word activity by contrasting it to entity. So grasping these ideas and then bringing them into the immediacy of your activity

[36:15]

It really takes some time. Whatever is good. Thank you very much. Itadakimasu.

[36:52]

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