I really want to have this time after the break for discussion. But I want you to see that, I want to see if it's clear that understanding is a concept. And it can be a limiting concept. It's a kind of addition, usually. But incubation is a kind of multiplication. Oh, excuse me.

[01:01]

And incubation is a kind of multiplication or minus zero or something. You don't know where it's going. It's just like I think what many people do if they have a baby. I think first you want to know if it's a boy or girl. Then you count the fingers and toes. Does it fit the usual pattern? I have a niece who was born with four toes, and it was a big deal.

[02:07]

She walks okay, though. So you don't really, in an incubatory process, you don't really know where it's going. Okay, so that's an example, a simple example of very simple words that control what we imagine is possible. And this is a very simple example, with very simple words, where you can see that they control what we believe is possible. Even though you can find many ways in which our educational process is considered incubatory, still the overriding idea is understanding.

[03:09]

Okay, so now, poking into this, digging into the layers of knowing, or the fields of gas, what is your experience? Because this in the end only makes sense if you relate it to and effect it through your own experience. Okay. So now I'm being patient again.

[04:10]

Yes. Hi, nice to see you. A response to what you just said when I was born. There was a feeling that was called, this cannot be the case, this cannot be. Specifically, my mother would have liked to have a boy.

[05:12]

But I, from very early on, was under the impression, this cannot be. And when I was about three years old, I very strongly had a feeling that there is something in me that nobody can touch or get into. This is good. This is good. And I had a feeling, yes, that that was good. I did not flee there, sometimes, but I was brought up there, but I have always received it.

[06:22]

And it is now, to this day, to shorten us through all stages of studies, psychology, medicine, pathology failed, wanted to go into children's psychiatry so that they would not go like us, and, and, and. bin ich jetzt angekommen hier und ich habe gespürt, warum ich mich nicht, das war gestern, nicht in dem Johannishof so bisher auf Dauer habe anmelden können oder zeigen können. Okay, so I had this sense that there's something in me that I will preserve, but the world has been trying to influence me, and I've been raised a certain way and so forth, but nonetheless, I've always maintained this feel and this relationship. And through studying, I've studied psychology and failed in pathology, and I've wanted to go into children's psychiatry with a sense that I wanted to help other children so that they don't have to endure what I had to go through.

[07:40]

But I'm still with this feeling, and until yesterday, I had a long, been exploring of why for instance i don't at johannes wolf why i haven't been able to fully make myself feel at home in the sense that i could have immersed in the place and some long-term commitment Ich muss es alleine schaffen. Ich muss so weit kommen, alleine, dass ich nicht mehr von der Welt geschlagen werde. So, my big... Hast du eine Leitfrage im Sinne von suffering? Oder eine Leitfrage, was hast du gesagt? Das ist meine große.

[08:43]

Ich wiederhole das nochmal, die Frage, konkret. Okay, so my big question is... So why I continue to have a feeling that I have to make it on my own, I have to manage on my own. Why is that? Because I do have the feeling that if I don't manage alone, that then it's as if the world can always, my metaphor for it is like with a cooking pan, can always beat up on me, or it can beat me up. So, und jetzt bin ich hier. Ich habe eine Erfahrung gemacht. Ich war in Sri Lanka und habe da erfahren, dass es Menschen gibt, die pur liebsten

[09:49]

And now I'm here, and I was in Sri Lanka recently and had an experience there that there are people who are purely love or purely loving. And I opened a book this week, and it said... in which Dogen spoke about the treasury. . And then I had some sense, feeling, knowing that my treasury box, this pearl that I've always protected throughout my life, that that could be in relationship, could be what Dogen is talking about when he speaks about a treasury.

[10:56]

It is possible. And so I am now sitting here calmly or at peace, at ease, peacefully with myself and the world. And I'm looking forward for what will come. Good. But so maybe the question, Roshi, why did I have to do this alone? It's too much suffering. Sometimes we have to do it alone. But you haven't done it alone. Look, you're sitting here with people and with your friend right in front of you. So that was a complete hit. One of the things I'm doing these days, I find I'm doing, I never find the right words, but I find words.

[12:25]

Anyway, I'm re-narrating my relationship to practice. As you noticed earlier, I described, made it a narrative going back to 1960, 61. And if it's a narrative, maybe somehow it allows each of us to feel it as a narrative intertwined with our own. So I went back, for example, now, and I asked Christina to bring me her copy of a book.

[13:36]

The book of Serenity, because I couldn't carry it on an airplane. I barely got myself on the airplane within the weight limit. The trains aren't functioning between... Vienna and Zurich these days. So I flew, first time I think I've ever flown to Vienna, to Vienna. And Hans-Jörg picked me up very sweetly. Yeah, no, but Griswold picked me up, you picked up her. And you brought us here.

[14:55]

So I wanted to look at the first koan of the Shoyuroku again. And it begins with a... but the verse which sets the context of the story, says, the unique breeze of reality do you see? Da heißt es, die einzigartige Brise der Wirklichkeit siehst du. Now, this phrase, as the beginning of a little short poem, are equivalent if you had a baby being born.

[16:01]

And the baby is looking at you, wanting to know who it is, what it is. And in your mind, before even the baby, the infant can understand words, If you said in your mind, you are the unique breeze of reality. And the whole time the baby's growing up and infants becomes a toddler and school child, and so forth.

[17:02]

Your view of the child is your unique breeze of reality. So you've formed that view of yourself. So if this first koan of the Shoryuken says what we are is the unique, not a, but the unique breeze of reality, So this koan then says, investigate this thoroughly. Incubate this fully.

[18:27]

So this is a view of the human person, being, persona, I don't know, as a unique, the unique breeze of reality, of actuality perhaps. Das hier ist die Sicht auf ein menschliches Wesen, auf eine Person oder Persona, weiß ich nicht genau, als die einzigartige Brise der Wirklichkeit. And then the koan says, investigate this thoroughly. It says more than that, but that's enough for now. And you have investigated this pretty thoroughly up until yesterday. It makes a difference what we think and say. Someone else. Yes. Yes. I could tell a similar narrative as you did just before.

[19:55]

As you did? No, as you did Begiroshi, yes. I learned Begiroshi in 1987. And what I would like to say is that in this encounter, And so what I want to say is I met Baker Roshi in 1987 and in this encounter was something i mean i was very intellectually interested and was fascinated by your brilliant mind But at the same time, what really attracted me was many qualities that took me a long time, to which I felt more like I was beginning to sense them in the dark.

[21:09]

from my own experience and experience with other people. And what Zen practice is for me is this process of discovery of one's own experience and the experience that can be shared with others. I think what happens in my own process of discovery is something that we share with many people who have taken their own path. It is a process of discovery where we try And I think what we share, the process of discovery that we find here and that we share with others is the process that we're finding something that's outside of the patterns of thinking that we can continue to explore. And for me, the question that came to me, the central question is, how do I get here?

[22:37]

And then the central question that arises for me is, how do I arrive here? And what is my experience of arriving here? Okay, thanks. Yes, Daniel? When I began practicing, it wasn't clear to me that I could feel awareness. And attention was an activity of consciousness. And once awareness appeared in experience, I could begin to clearly distinguish it from consciousness.

[23:49]

There was no awareness, but more consciousness. I was able to be the truth without having to construct consciousness and therefore there was awareness. then suddenly attention was no longer a function of consciousness, or I was able to hold attention in awareness without constructing consciousness. Und ich finde das sehr erfreulich, And I find it rather surprising or wondrous. And wonder what more or what else can come from that. Well, staying on the path is the response to that question.

[25:03]

Okay, a consciousness is invisible. And practice is to make consciousness visible. Seeable, knowable. And then awareness is really invisible. It's hidden behind consciousness. So this is one of the most basic distinctions I've made over many years now between consciousness and awareness. And let's pretend we're in an Anamandel circle. I think of it as a Hanamandel circle. And isn't Mandel a mathematical term, too? Yeah, well, it's a name. Yeah. So, anyway... So, please... Let's just speak to all of us, not just to me.

[26:25]

Nicole, what is your experiential definition of the distinction between awareness and consciousness? But in other words, let's talk to each other and not just to me and Nicole, but the question, what is your distinction, in your experience, the distinction between consciousness and truth? Yes. So actually I don't know about between awareness and consciousness. Okay. But I wanted to say I met Bekaroshi for the first time in 1989. And I have to concur about the brilliant mind.

[27:27]

Okay. And I felt something by coincidence sat next to you in a restaurant. And it was a bodily relaxing feeling. Aus. Maybe our awarenesses were co-mingling. I would like to conclude there, because what Christine said about the first encounter, what you just told me about your first encounter, also made sense to me. And this brilliance made me rather shy and a little bit unsure. And I would like to add to that what Christina said and now you said about the first encounter with you.

[28:44]

I thought about when I first met you. And for me, your brilliance was rather something that intimidated me and made me feel shy. Very shy, yeah. Because I didn't understand anything. But surprisingly, that didn't matter at all. Because where I could immediately connect really was this body presence. And this field that arose or was generated from it being penetrated by breathing. And I am up to this day incredibly grateful, Roshi, that you kept encouraging me and giving me freedom and so forth, making me feel that if I don't understand in my head, or if I don't intellectually understand what you're saying, that that really doesn't matter.

[30:10]

And this fear has really disappeared, that I can never understand it. I don't have the capacity to understand it. But the rum was there, and the seeds have dried up. And I don't have the capacity that I could intellectually fathom all of this. But the space was there, and the seeds were planted. and more and more kept dripping into that space and something grew from that or is growing from that. to accustom. So then today, if now we are trying to approach this terminology here, these different terms, and not trying to look at them, taste them, or accustom to feel them.

[31:16]

Then I would say that I have entered this field of awareness. Then I would say that I entered, we're talking about the field of awareness, I entered through the field of awareness and not entered through consciousness. That's what I hope, because from my own experience, of what I'm doing is a kind of attentional care. And I feel that as attentional care, it's available to all of us. And, okay, do you mean attentional care in the sense of, with attention, taking care of something or being careful?

[32:28]

Well, but I'm talking about being attentionally careful. Yeah, okay. A kind of pace. Aufmerksam, sehr sorgfältig zu sein. Das ist eine Art Schritttempo, eine Art, was etwas auch mit dem Rhythmus oder dem Tempo zu tun hat. Yes. Hi. I just told him I missed him last year. I remember these songs. But he said kindly he missed me too. You were in Belgium or someplace? You were in Belgium or someplace? I don't know. I prefer to talk English now because I want to... That's okay.

[33:30]

Okay, sure. When I came here, I took a book with me that I'm just reading. Basically, thinking about, okay, what do I do when there's nothing going on? And intriguing, or intriguing enough, this book is about what you're talking about. And the book is called The Evolution of Mind. And what bringing that in is because there are some issues here that I think are At least for me it's important.

[34:44]

Okay, yes. One of his arguments says that awareness is before we become conscious. And the argument is not only from a child's point of view, that when a child is growing up, it's first aware and then it's become unconscious. But also from a development perspective of humankind. And what really intrigued me is that he's arguing that there is no such thing as consciousness without language.

[36:03]

And now to Grant Hillman. Congratulations. Well, you were here. You had a little bit of my making, but thank you. Of course, not I, but Anna and you. And when I see them, they don't speak yet. Can you say that again, what you just said? When I see them... Oh, when you see the grandchildren, they don't speak yet. They don't speak yet. They have to develop their own language. They're not brothers, they're not siblings.

[37:07]

No, they're not brothers. They're both younger than one. And yet I have this feeling there's no way of getting to that unless they work language. There's no way of getting to that kind of knowing what they're thinking unless they're thinking in language. unless they're telling me in language what they're thinking. And this is a very similar experience now That I remember I grew up with a dog.

[38:16]

With a dog. The dog and me were the same age. Unfortunately he died much earlier than me. Yes, I guess that's what I wanted to say. Okay. But you did know the consciousness or something like that of the dog, even though the dog had very limited vocabulary. Would you agree with that? I guess at that time, yes, I felt like, OK, this is like a brother, and we can communicate.

[39:19]

I think, reading now this book, I'm not so sure how much this is really something that is, or something that I project upon. So, is this, again, kind of a realization of my unconsciousness, rather than of what I am aware of? When I was growing up, I had the feeling that I was growing up with this dog like with a brother and we could somehow understand each other. But now that I'm reading this book, I'm wondering if it really was like that or if it's more of a projection of my own consciousness on him, on this dog. Let me say that while I think of it now, one of the problems of someone on the path is

[40:25]

A trust in one's own experience. In a way that doesn't have to be checked up from outside. And that's a kind of big breakthrough when you trust your own experience even if no one else has it. And I have no interest in disagreeing with the author of this book. But from the point of view of what I'm trying to speak about this weekend, Consciousness is the medium which makes language possible. But it's not the criterion of consciousness. Language is created from consciousness, but consciousness is already there. Die Sprache wird aus dem Bewusstsein heraus erschaffen, aber das Bewusstsein ist auch ohne Sprache da.

[42:03]

And that already there consciousness is distinct from awareness. Und auch dieses bereits vorhandene Bewusstsein ist von Gewahrsein verschieden. Although at least I'd say that at this moment, we'll see. Because I'm in debating. Yes. You're like the Buddha in that, between these two. It's my altar, my private altar. I have a good relationship, a close relationship to our cat in the office. And according to my feeling she has an articulated or has a consciousness.

[43:10]

She can be demanding and she actually talks. Not in words, but when she says something, one knows exactly what she means. And I feel like one can also sort of read her body when she's in awareness mode and when she wants something specific or like when there's some feeling of a division or... Distinction. Distinction, yeah. And the second thing, I think the topic is, Mr. Paul, with the layers of realized consciousness, And I like the topic. I think the topic is great with the layers of consciousness.

[44:12]

I've been working with that for a long time and also with what role does attention play in that. In my experience, these two media or activities have different consistencies And my experience is that these two mediums have different densities or different states. Viscosity. Viscosity, yeah. Maybe like... Except that consciousness is more like air and awareness is more like liquid, more like water.

[45:14]

And that they are still very flabbergasted. And every time a consciousness arises, truthfulness is also present. But they are closely interwoven, and that every time that consciousness arises, awareness is also present. And that in order to notice awareness, at least that's my experience at this point, in order to notice awareness, consciousness has to be present. A little bit, yeah. Well, yeah, you said that, so let's leave it. And with interwoven, I mean something rather dynamic, that they flow into each other and emphases shift.

[46:22]

Yeah, the next line of that little poem in the Shoyuroku case, It's continuously creation weaves her loom and shuttle. Now, if you're going to investigate that thoroughly, You have to investigate continuously. What could that be? What is your experience of continuity or continuance? And what is creation? What is creation? Weaving her? Who's her?

[47:24]

This is the English translation. Okay, so that's one response to what you just said. And another is my experience sitting here. I will not try to explain why I've been here for 20 or 30 years and more. I have heard people like Nicole. I mean, there's nobody, no unique breeze like Nicole, but Eric and Christina and others have translated for me. And I'm not going to try to explain why I've been here for 20 or 30 years.

[48:26]

And I recently heard that even Nicole and, of course, a unique group, but also, for example, Christine and Erich, who have translated for me here for a long time, How can I sit here for all these years and not have learned German? They're teaching me all the time. I had explanations, but not very good explanations. But I must say, when I get to America, I really miss not understanding. While I'm sitting here, in the midst of his saying what he said in German, I would say I'm completely conscious.

[49:27]

And I barely understand a glimmer of what she said. But I feel myself in this field of consciousness. dragonflies and insects and buzzings and birds and it's really nice. And I found these wonderful people to then put this all together zoologically. But I'm definitely conscious, but it's just pleasant. And of course, I really feel Mikhail at the time, but it's not even Mikhail, which I don't even know how to pronounce.

[50:36]

It's totally a field of feeling. So then we can ask, what is the field of feeling and how is that different from the field of awareness? The field and field of awareness. And these questions I'm asking For me, help me look into the weave more carefully, each line of thread and so forth. Okay, someone else? No, no, you've already... Yes. It doesn't mean you can't speak again, but let's give some other people a chance.

[51:54]

Okay. Yeah, so what is awareness in my experience, and what's my definition of it? At least I feel that I am approaching it more closely. And then I investigate how, or explore, how lying down and sleeping and so forth, and also being upright and awake, how that plays together in sitting, in darin, meinst du, sitzen, ja.

[53:17]

And this courage to engage with, to maybe even drop myself into this experience where there is a real sense of fluidity, to allow myself to let that feel, yeah, feel that. What's very helpful for me in that is the phrase, heaven, earth, and I share the same root. What is the same root? Okay, yeah, and this koan asks the same question in different images.

[54:23]

Asks what is the unique breeze of reality, also in three categories. And of course three means many and two means either or. So let's be patient and incubate and come back to that. Now, again, I'm trying to speak about the overall context of our practice. And the first thing you said was, I find I'm approaching this more fully in my zazen or something.

[55:31]

This is your unique breeze. But as soon as you said that, I felt my body tell you you were right. Both basically we've been practicing together long enough. We met in 1840, didn't we? In Poland, I believe. Or maybe... Switzerland. Switzerland, okay. Anyway... Sufi camp. Yeah. Within Dogen's initial sangha, there were a lot of people that were part of a sangha called the Bodhidharma Sangha, the Dharmasu.

[56:51]

And within our Dharma Sangha, there's the Sufi shoe. Former Sufi practitioner. So we've been practicing together long enough that I noticed how I leaned slightly towards you as you said that, and there were other bodily physiological aspects, which signaled to you that I know your experience, and I confirm your experience. And I see you often enough each year to know how your practice is developing. Now it's quite possible that you might conceptualize your practice in some way that I wouldn't quite feel is on the path.

[58:21]

And if you said something like that or I could feel something like that in you, As you said it, I would sort of maybe move a little bit to the left and sideways or something. Now, some dynamic like this is essential to the shared practice that is the dynamic of teaching disciples Eine Dynamik wie diese ist absolut wesentlich für die Dynamik zwischen Lehrer und Schüler oder Schülerinnen.

[59:23]

But teacher and disciple is already not, I don't like it, it's more a shared field, shared dharmic field. And that shared field also guides what I speak about. And I can feel when you are in the field or slightly out of the field. And recently I gave a talk in Crestone. I mean, no, Janusov. And I couldn't really feel the field. And I also recognized I didn't want to feel the field.

[60:28]

And because I didn't want to... I wanted to also have the experience of leaving the field and not having to create a field. So some of you were there and you noticed at the end I just got up and walked out. And this was quite interesting for me. I sort of only half understood what I was doing. But I didn't do it. So I'm saying that to say we are the unique breeze of actuality.

[61:33]

But that unique breeze includes others and includes the phenomenality of circumstances. You give up. There's no such word as phenomenality. But I didn't want to use phenomenology because that would be something like a study of phenomena. I wanted to say something like the wateriness of water. Because the big problem for Westerners is they don't get the phenomenality of phenomena.

[62:36]

Weil das große Problem für die Westler ist, dass sie die Phänomenhaftigkeit der Phänomene nicht erkennen. They don't let the wateriness of water guide their practice. The first time I met Evelyn, she said she came from Switzerland on a bicycle. When I saw Evelyn for the first time, she got on a bike from Switzerland. On the way, you stopped at the Rhine and swam in the Rhine. You can get arrested for that. And here I thought, oh my God, it's Amazon, I mean Amazon.

[63:53]

I thought, oh my, now it's this Amazone or Amazene, Amazene. And then when I saw you as a taiko drummer, I thought, oh yeah, she probably did it. And I never spoke to you. Well, anyway, in my mind, you're extremely sportive. What time is lunch supposed to be? One? Does anybody know? Who's the boss here? Okay, let's go to lunch. Thank you very much. I have another question.

[65:15]

Since you said... Since you mentioned we should speak to each other as if we were in a Hanamandu circle, the question is if we could actually make a Hanamandu circle. This doesn't feel enough like a Hanamandu circle. I am training my... Okay, you have less awareness behind you than in front of you. I've heard about that problem. Okay, well, we'll see. See the problem you've caused, Hannah? Thank you. Thank you for all the fun.

[66:18]

@Transcribed_UNK
@Text_v005
@Score_76.48