I can't understand it. And I'm kind of curious what she might say. And I can't expect simultaneous translation. So I'll depend on Christina. May I come over and join you, Christina? Thank you. Thank you. I thought that I would like to take you into the field of experience with your permission.

[01:35]

That in connection with Roshi's lectures last weekend and now also these days, what has become clearer and more noticeable to me. But I would like to do something like Well, I would now call it a guided imagination. And yes, just a few steps and then we can maybe talk about it. But there are a few aspects that I have researched over and over again, which I think I can best convey through such a feeling. Better than talking about it. Good. As you sit, however comfortable you are, it is probably best that the spine can be relatively relaxed. To find a upright posture, just like in our self.

[02:36]

Und vielleicht könnt ihr eure Aufmerksamkeit erstmal einfach dahin bringen, dass jeder, jeder Einzelne von euch hier sitzt. Einfach das Gewahrsein dafür, ich sitze jetzt hier. And maybe you can just briefly warn this I, whatever that is exactly for you. I am sitting here now. This individual feeling of that is me. And in my research, I then let my attention from there in den Körper hineinschmelzen. Kann ich sagen, ich bringe jetzt die Aufmerksamkeit in den Körper.

[04:04]

Ich kann aber auch sagen, jetzt ist der Körper aufmerksam. Maybe we can perceive this shift. Now here is the attentive body. And in further research, I then bring my attention in the reality that the ground, that the earth, carries this body. You can feel this carrying quality of the ground. Vielleicht kannst auch du einfach mal deine Aufmerksamkeit einen Moment nur in dieser tragenden Qualität der Erde verweilen lassen, ruhen lassen.

[05:25]

Now we can go on and realize that this carrying earth, this carrying soil, is expanding in the whole room, is present in the whole room and carries everyone else in this room. It also goes far beyond this space. And this earth extends through the whole forest district, under the castle, all over Austria, all over Europe, all over the earth. And even if we don't have any sense receptors there, maybe the concept that it is so, that the whole earth is simple and this carrying quality spreads everywhere,

[07:02]

Maybe it can still make a difference in our experience, simply to present ourselves, to know about it. Here in the forest district, if you look at the forest district, go up the hill or just with every look outside we see that the hill here is actually primarily an ant colony. Fully populated by ants, by many other insects. of trees, many unique plants.

[08:09]

And we humans and the family Thorn have built this building in the middle of it. In the middle of the ant colony. in which we can now meet. Yes, and then maybe we can slowly bring our attention back into the concrete of our body, your body, Vielleicht nochmal speziell in die Wirbelsäule hinein. Die Wirbelsäule als Aufmerksamkeit. Mit einem Gewahrsein davon, dass oberhalb der Wirbelsäule endloser Raum beginnt.

[09:24]

Und auch unterhalb der Wirbelsäule beginnt endloser Raum. Und die Wirbelsäule ist auch endloser Raum. Okay, also so weit erstmal. Das als Vorbereitung. Okay, and to take a closer look at that, I would like to do that with you in the next few minutes. Because with such an imagination, I have now simply tried this practice of imagination, because what becomes clear to me is that in the imagination I can present a much more complex view

[10:53]

than the views that my consciousness brings with it culturally. I can feed much more complex views into a physical experience via the imagination. For me, my physical experience is normally shaped by the assumptions of consciousness, namely that the world is out there, for example, that the world exists in thing-like entities, and that these entities have a duration. And through the imagination, I can now feed views into the experience, which, for me at least, are physically tangible.

[11:56]

They begin to expand these assumptions, or the alternative experience space, to give it to the hand, to put it aside. And when Roshi says that consciousness is a construct, then for me the insight that has been very important to me in the last few days is the insight that consciousness is an image of a much more complex world. And this much more complex world I can imagine the physical world, the biological, the physical world in which, and this is a very central view for me in this process,

[13:00]

there is no distinction between matter and non-matter. This is a distinction that I now notice, with which I work a lot at the moment. As if there were body and mind and that separated from each other. In the physical world, which we cannot fully grasp in its entirety through our sense organs, in this physical world there is no such distinction. There is simply Only what we call the world, everything is the same somewhere. Whether you say materiality now, whether you say energy now, it doesn't matter at the moment. No matter how we present it to us in terms of language or conceptually, it is secondary. The point is that everything is pulled through the same, you can say, waves. There is air, which is also matter. or everything that goes to the end of the universe, that's all matter.

[14:18]

So I don't know exactly if I should say it differently, but this distinction that there is something like matter and non-matter, that's a central view for me in what Roshi is talking about, to dissolve that. Okay. So, and then it's like this, when I say it like this, consciousness is an image of a much more complex world. Then this term image is also central to me, because if consciousness doesn't exist, shows us the world as it is, but is an image, then of course we can investigate how this image is actually shaped.

[15:20]

And of course we have already talked about this all morning. And I have now simply compared it to this three-part, which is a core doctrine in Buddhism, the so-called Ayatana, where it is made clear that you have the sense object, the sense object, and I now simply call it the physical world, which we cannot grasp in its entirety and in its complexity with our senses. And then there is the sense organ, our six, our five bodily plus spirit, i.e. our sense fields. And they are also built up according to relatively clearly defined physiological processes, anatomically and physiologically.

[16:26]

And through the contact of the object of meaning, i.e. what I now call the physical world, and the organ of meaning, i.e. our human organ, a field is created through this contact. And this field is the experience, is our experienced world. In what I just said, I actually just tried to enter this experienced world with a sense of security for a higher complexity. That is, to bring the experienced world a little closer to the physical world in its higher complexity. Yes, and I actually notice that the research that happens for me, which is exciting for me at the moment, is actually not so much more than an experience of it, a feeling that the world as I experience it

[17:54]

that the world as it is is far beyond how I experience it. And this simple feeling, this simple feeling that the world as it is is far beyond how I experience it, creates a dynamic of openness and flexibility in which suddenly a lot is possible. And I don't know, if now the Roshi announces it like that, what was that, where you started to have an experience of deconstruction of consciousness, then it is actually that, that is the point that I try to convey. How do I get into a physical experience of an openness to it, a physical experience of an openness to it, that the world as it is, So do you feel by

[18:56]

extending your experiential consciousness. That gave you a different kind of knowing through this extended consciousness. And the direct experience of simply extending consciousness to the ground, the earth, etc. And noticing the difference in your experience then. gave you a tangible feeling of participating in constructing consciousness. Was that sort of what you were... Yes. of constructing and actually of deconstructing maybe more so.

[20:55]

Good. He says, does this give you an experience of the construction of consciousness? Yes, it does. For me, first of all, actually from the deconstruction of consciousness. Deconstruction in the sense of... Let's start with the fact that we already have a constructed consciousness. That consciousness is already a structured spirit. Then... you can look at what are the structural principles in it, what are the construction principles in it. And the two I just wanted to go beyond are, first of all, the world is out there. And the second is, the things are entities, or they are timeless in time.

[22:08]

This is how I experience the consciousness that has already been constructed. And exercises like these, one after the other, and you can refine them a lot, you can spend a lot of time on them, they solve these construction principles a little bit and put other areas of experience in front of them. That's what I wanted to say. Shri Mataji Yes, yes. I have closed my eyes and make an experience. And I open my eyes and my interaction with the world is very different. I make the experience with open eyes that the world is outside of us, that I can see the sky and this tree in half an hour, just like now.

[23:20]

And this back and forth, I would like to understand that better. As you describe it, I have the impression that there is a final road to a real goal. I see it quite differently, because it is very much parallel. And also a already constructed office is constantly changing under the barometer. Yes, yes. I think, for me, when I experience that when I open my eyes, I already assume that the pillar will always be the same. It's one thing to know that.

[24:25]

But when I actually notice how my seeing is informed by this assumption, I don't know if that makes sense now, then that is actually this measurement of it. That is totally alive for me. The measurement of the assumption. How do you feel about it? How do you feel about the acceptance? I feel it as a You can think of a metaphor, maybe like a stopped movie.

[25:34]

And then the feeling in my eyes is like a stopped movie. Subjectively, if I have such a question, how does it feel? Then I try out, how is it without that? I create a contrast. Can I feel when I take your column? How is it when I close my eyes, open my eyes, close my eyes, open my eyes? If I do that often enough, then at some point I actually have a feeling, wow, this is different every time. And to create contrast is the way I practice it. Your emphasis on deconstruction on the threshold of construction, of structurality, of safety, of safe warning and protection, that reminds me of this.

[26:55]

den Begriff, den die beiden großen Frauen Virginia Satir und Gabriella Roth für diese Phase bereitstellen, nämlich Chaos. Chaos-Phase. Also sollten wir nicht vergessen, dass wir oft erst mal erschrecken, wenn das kaputt geht alles. Ja. Und dann fangen wir notgedrungen an zu schwimmen. So, in the river, in the close consciousness. Yes. That's what I find so exciting. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Thank you. Yes, thank you. When I heard about it, this amazing attitude that you have, that made me very happy.

[28:04]

And there is also your description, which is surprisingly easy to understand. As if the whole thing is connected to your experience. And there is one point, but I think it is the worst thing that has ever happened to me. And then I stumble over it again. That is this statement, we believe that the world is out there. And there is a certain perception and a rhythm, It is very clear that this does not exist. And at the same time, I know from my own experience, from my own experience, that it is very important to know that the world is out there.

[29:19]

This is a very important moment in life, that it is so important that the world, that for example someone who threatens me, that I can recognize that it is out there. Yes, yes. And also if someone is racist, then something is wrong. I defined one sentence as a key view for me in this process. And this sentence was that consciousness is a simplified depiction of a much more complex world. Now I can continue. Why does this happen? Why does consciousness do this at all? You can do it philosophically now, but maybe let's say, one possibility would be to say that consciousness

[30:31]

gives us a simplified picture of a much more complex world so that we can act on it in a planned manner, or so that we can act on it. You can now see for yourself why, what is right for you. I'm just looking for myself now, I think, so for me it is right at the moment, so that I can act on it. And when this um zu, it has a function, If the function doesn't work, then of course that's a different kind of problem. But for people, I would say, for whom the function of consciousness is fulfilled in a healthy way, yes, there is now another cascade of consequences, namely that the exaltation of the world can lead to alienation from the world. And then we are in the area, perhaps also in the therapeutic area.

[31:37]

The simplification of this image can lead to blurred views of it and false expectations in contact with the world. And in a different way. So, and that, yes. And that's it. Yes. Yes. I think, first of all, I liked it very much, especially how you described it, the fact that it works so well.

[32:42]

I don't know how you said it, but I also have a resonance with this problem. I would like to continue now. Yes. Yes, the creative chaos maybe. Yes, yes. Yes, I have a similar experience of the resonance, of the physicality.

[34:04]

The experience of what I call consciousness is in principle a relatively rigid, but also a world that gives me security. that has a certain function, but it feels like, in comparison, when you play with this fixation, the fixation of the world, and let it loose a bit, then I also have an experience of being alive in the river. It's also a bit of a sensory or cognitive overwhelm at first. It's a bit much, but yes. I just feel that somehow, I have now also discussed it for myself, what is the feeling that I have about it, and that is exactly that, so I have found the word lust and fear, so it is somehow, there is like a fright, whether of the chaos or of the dissolution,

[35:12]

If I don't do anything and stay relaxed, then there is a feeling of more vastness and more vitality. Yes. And the other one feels like this. The experience is also better than not being able to speak. The world is not as it is, but through experience it changes. I think this is also very real. The dynamic of the world changes when we have experience. And if we make ourselves aware of this, then it changes. It has something to do with information and with a dynamic that people have.

[36:16]

and let the so-called evolution continue to grow. My experience from the path of practice is that, as you say, it is one thing, a teaching, when the Rosh Chesed speaks, to get it clear somewhere on the conceptual level. That's one thing, if you can think about it. And a second thing is to get a feeling for it. Something like a taste or something. And this can really be a process of translation with which I personally spend a lot of time. This translation of something that I can think into something that I can feel. And a third step is that what I can feel To feel so deep that it is completely self-evident, that it is simply in my functioning, as the basis of my activity, as Rashi says, my body knows the gravity.

[37:23]

I don't have to constantly object to it and keep an eye on it. That it is so engraved in the activity of my body and my mind, that it is just there, that's how it is for this organism. And because of this view of wisdom, let's say, of the mutual connection, of the mutual dependence, and also of the continual re-creation of situations, where the feeling of creativity and uniqueness that to translate that from, I have a feeling for it, I have a taste for it, to, I am so, not more I, but that is, it is, that is, I think, really the process that simply needs repetition, where the Rashi then speaks of outgrowing.

[38:25]

It just needs, I just do it, I just expose myself to it, nothing else. So I appreciate your trying to do a play around experiment with how to change a concept into a feeling and experience. So then you can see what that means. I appreciate your attempt to play around with it, to introduce the concept into a feeling and into a practice, and to see what that leads to. but I didn't understand quite what you meant when you said you can become alienated from consciousness. I didn't quite understand what you meant when you said you can become alienated from consciousness. Yes, that was the answer to Christine, right?

[39:27]

Yes, and the... What I basically said there is that consciousness has a function. And you often talk about the function or the task of consciousness is to make the world predictable. Okay. And now, to do that, There are views, I'll call them construction principles, that it needs to accomplish this function. One is to externalize the world. And another is to perceive things as constant.

[40:36]

But if the externalization of the world is perceived exclusively, if you only have a sense of the world as externalized, then it can lead to alienation. If you don't have a real... Alienated from the world as it is, but alienated from consciousness or identified with consciousness. I think it happens through, I would say, an over-identification with consciousness. That, you know, feeling that consciousness is the only way to exist.

[41:36]

And then what initially is just a function, the externalization of the world, when there's no alternative to that, it can lead. And I said to her, and that may be the field of psychology and psychotherapy, then that can lead to a sense of feeling alienated from the world, of no longer feeling one's belongingness in the world. world that consciousness presents to you, you can't really feel. Yes. It's delusional. Yes, exactly. Because it's delusive, then you feel alienated from the world that consciousness presents to you. That's exactly what I meant. I'm glad I tried that. In the sense of mental illness. In German. I said... I said that you want to feel the world, but when consciousness becomes... when the functions of consciousness to make the world predictable so that you can, you know, etc.,

[42:55]

that world can't be felt because essentially it's a delusion. So if you develop a real sensitivity to actual experience, consciousness itself alienates you. So I asked her if that's what she meant, and she said, of course. Well, I think she said... It's dinner time, so unless you want to go on, you know, that's what I think very much. Andreas, what are you keeping your mouth for? No, I just fell out of time.

[43:58]

Fell out of time. This is great. But you're still sitting in the same space. It's all right. Sure. Yeah. Thank you very much.

[44:10]

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