Good morning. Thank you for being here again today. Yeah. What I've been wondering about is the degree to which these differences between yogic and Asian thinking and doing are simply cultural differences? Or are they also, as I find them to be, perceptual, sensorial, cognitive differences, a different way of knowing and being in the world. What I haven't asked is the extent to which these differences in the yogic, in yogic-Asian, to what extent these are simply cultural differences or, as I find it, also differences in the

[01:19]

Sounded okay in German. I would say one way to look at the difference, notice the difference, is that when you when you, you know, Socrates' dictum, et cetera, to know thyself. From the yogic point of view, that would mean to know one thyself, oneself,

[02:26]

In such a way that you can fold the world into yourself. Notice how English almost doesn't let me say something like I have to use the word self to fold the world into yourself but into your or self? No, but into one's interiority In effect, you are The concept is you're generating, creating an interiority.

[03:58]

And, you know, it's simplistic, I think, to think, well, in the West we have this background of God created us and we're complete and, you know, there's already a person there at conception and so forth. And in the West we have this idea that it is quite simplistic that God created us and we are already complete. And what else was there? You are there, there is a person there at Conception, you know, the Southern Protestants in America. Even if we don't subscribe to those views, they're in the background of our thinking. Yeah, so... The yogic view more is that you are creating the world and creating yourself, your beingness.

[05:17]

They, you know, throwing in my mosaic way of thinking. But, you know, Chinese and Japanese people do, Korean especially, do way better at math than Westerners. But the West and America and Germany and all win many more Nobel prizes. But one of the differences seems to be that We emphasize talent. You're born with mathematical or musical abilities. And Asia says, yeah, well, yes, there's some difference, but mostly if you intend to learn mathematics, you can. And that makes a difference. Einer der Unterschiede scheint zu sein, dass wir Talent sehr viel näher betonen.

[06:38]

And I see it in my own 14-year-old daughter. I mean, if Annie... Girl, her age grew up in a Buddhist household in Europe and America. She did. So she shares probably pretty strongly this kind of view I just mentioned. But she still somehow thinks, well, some girls, boys have more mathematical talent than maybe I have some, etc. It's very cute. Her older sister has a lot of musical talent.

[08:01]

She sings in the San Francisco Opera. Sophia is really good at the piano. But she's also aware that her father has very little musical talent. So there is some difference between, you know, capacities. In any case, the point I'm making is these differences make a difference but not an absolute difference. But this view that we create the world in how we live the world.

[09:07]

At least we create our own capacity to know the world. Even if our particular historical era will be horrible. But the idea is that something like the world and you are one substance. It takes the form of you and it takes the form of tables and it takes the... But it's one sort of... It's like it's all molecules or something, but it's more... like a fluid that you shape in the way of thinking.

[10:07]

But the basic idea is that you and the world are a kind of substance. And sometimes it takes the form of you, the form of tables and so on. Maybe you can say that they are all molecules or something. But it is ultimately from the basic idea, from the understanding, it is a kind, more like a kind of liquid that you form or that is formed or takes shape. Yes. And Even there's a ongoing sense that, which is for me simply a fact, like this room is, we're creating this room. If you think the room is created by the walls, well, yes, but my point of view, that's stupid. First of all, someone created the walls.

[11:21]

And then the two of you changed it a whole lot. But the difference is not in the relationship to the walls, but the reality is relationships as activity. So this house in this room is a prior activity which we are using now as part of our activity. Also ist dieses Zimmer und dieses Haus eine vorhergehende Aktivität, die wir jetzt in unserer Aktivität benutzen. If you show a Japanese kid some grass, a cow and a chicken and say what belongs together, or a Western kid, the Western kid will say the chicken and the cow belong together.

[12:48]

Also wenn du einem... Because they're the categories of farm animals. But the Japanese kid will say immediately it's the grass that belongs to the cow because it's a causal relationship, not a category relationship. Das japanische Kind würde sofort sagen, dass das Gras und die Kuh zusammengehören, weil es da einen Aktivitätszusammenhang, einen Ursachenzusammenhang gibt und nicht so einen kategorischen Zusammenhang. And that's been tested a lot. And it's been shown a complex picture to a Westerner. Kids. They pick out the foreground. The Asian kids pick up the background.

[13:56]

You ask them, what do they remember? Well, I remember in that Concorde, the landing, in the picture of the Concorde, the landing wheels were still down. It's really tiny. But they remember, the landing wheels were still down and the airport tower was slightly different. Land gear, yeah. It's not, I think, and this is interesting, how often this has been tested, it's not, I think, that they look at the background, they look at the context. And they're so used to looking at the context, they just see without any effort.

[15:04]

These differences interest me. Yeah, I saw once a kind of little, now it would be on YouTube, but in those days it was a little anthropological film clip As a pretty little blonde Australian girl. And a little indigenous, what is it? Aboriginal girl. there was a stump of a tree, and it was piled with stuff, leaves, stuff, you know, a shell, stones, and things like that.

[16:19]

And the guy, the anthropologist, walks up with these two girls, and without even saying, they sort of looked at it, he just brushed it off the trunk of the tree. of the stump of the tree. And then he said, would you put it back? The way it was. The little blonde girl could almost put nothing back. And the Aboriginal girl just put it back as if she'd taken a photograph with a, you know, a camera.

[17:20]

And the Aboriginal girl could immediately put it back, as if she had taken a photo of it with a camera. And I don't think that has anything to do with intelligence. It develops a different kind of intelligence, but it's a way of seeing the world. And I don't think that has anything to do with intelligence. You develop a certain kind of intelligence, but it's much more a way of seeing the world. So I, for instance, to practice Zen in the traditional way and give lectures, as I have to do quite a lot, I've had to discover how, and with the help of Suzuki Roshi, To discover and intuit and mirror his mode of mind when he gave lectures.

[18:26]

So that I wouldn't have to accept in a kind of like general way, prepare for a talk, I could allow it to happen through the context. And maybe here I might mention something I mentioned near the end in Hannover. What I'm doing here is called a second teaching. The first teaching is before I come, and I have some kind of general sense of what I might say.

[19:26]

What I say has not yet reached into words. Etwas, was ich sagen könnte, was aber noch nicht, noch nicht seinen Weg in Worte gefunden hat. And so the first teaching is when it's not yet words. Und die erste Lehre ist, wenn es noch nicht Worte, die Form von Worten angenommen hat. The second teaching is allowing the feeling to seek words, seek speaking with you. Und das zweite ist zuzulassen, dass dieses Gefühl Worte sucht und Worte findet mit euch. Yeah, I mean, one thing, for example, in Asia, you never give lectures with a podium where your body is cut off. You always sit, it might be a chair, but so your whole body is part of the presence. Man sitzt immer so, und das kann schon auch in einem Stuhl stattfinden, sitzt immer so, dass der gesamte Körper Teil des Vortrags ist, und das sind, oder sichtbar auch ist, und das sind bedeutsame Unterschiede.

[20:46]

If I ever gave a TED lecture, I think I'd call it a bed lecture, and I'd lie down. Wenn ich einen TED-Vortrag halten sollte, dann würde ich das, glaube ich, einen Bett-Vortrag halten und mich hinlegen. Okay, so... So the second lecture is when it comes into words. The second teaching is when it comes into words. And then there's the concept of the third teaching. The third teaching includes your experience of the second teaching. But your capacity to also to feel into what the first teaching was. And that then becomes a lineage of teaching. So when you hear your teacher talk, you can then feel the first teaching and then start from there when you're teaching.

[22:09]

Okay, now, again, I don't think, this is a more complex idea of teaching than I experienced in the university. But it really arises from the cultural difference, not from some kind of genetic difference. Because if there's a sense of a continuous interplay of activity which never stops, That leads to a kind of frequency or spectrum of possibilities that come out of that way of viewing the world.

[23:18]

What was the last thing? Frequencies that never stop. activity that's present all the time, continuously, something like that, I said. And you're in that field of activity, giving it form, letting it release from form, giving it form, so forth. Okay. Now, let me make a shift here. As I said the other day, there's a lot of computer programmers and therapists and musicians and so forth in our Sangha.

[24:29]

And I suppose the largest contingent guild is a psychotherapist, some kind of therapist. Okay, now some persons who are psychotherapists told me years ago They began to be interested in Zen practice or meditation because they found that their clients who meditated made use of therapy more quickly and effectively than people who didn't meditate. I don't know if any of you have that perception or not, but people told me they have that perception.

[25:34]

Okay, then they said, these several persons said, but after a while and seeing how effective, how meditation was effective in therapeutic practice for the client, They thought they might try meditation. The therapist thought they might try. It's a word for the client, it might work for me. And some person said to me they'd come to the kind of end of the rope with their psychological training and so forth, working for their own evolution. So that was a second motive or an additional motive for starting to practice themselves and practicing meditation or even joining our Zen Sangha.

[27:05]

Okay, so now let me speak about that in a slightly different way. I would say that my job is intersubjectivity. Ich würde sagen, dass mein Job, meine Aufgabe ist Intersubjektivität. Yeah, I mean everybody is involved with intersubjectivity. Und jeder beteiligt sich ja oder hat irgendwas zu tun mit Intersubjektivität. But if you're a scientist or a businessman or something like that, it's the intersubjectivity of the people you work with in order to accomplish some task. But my entire job is inner. There's no task involved. It's just inner subjectivity. And I would even say maybe I'd say mutual intersubjectivity.

[28:32]

No, is that a redundancy to add mutual? I don't think so. Okay, so I'm using subjective to mean personal, cognitive and psychological beingness. Ich benutze dieses Wort Subjekt, um damit persönliche, kognitive und das psychologische Sein zu bezeichnen. And personal, psychological, cognitive experience. Und persönliche, kognitive und psychologische Erfahrungen. And I'm using intersubjective to mean, of course, the overlapping experience. and differing intersubjectivity.

[29:51]

Now, I think this must also be the case for something like that for a psychotherapist. Your work is constantly involved with inner subjectivity. Now if you add Zen practice to that, what's that all about? So I would say that I would think of an imaginary psychotherapist in my mind Imagine a shack up there.

[30:54]

And I guess I'm in your therapy room, is that right? Yes, that's right. And it has two chairs and a small table. And a bed which just got made or changed. There's an anthropological flavor and there's a shamanic flavor and there's a Japanese Buddhist flavor. I hope I'm not embarrassing you. So this is the context you've created. Okay. So I would say that this model psychotherapist in my mind, part of their life is practicing psychotherapy.

[32:02]

Ein Teil ihres Lebens ist die psychotherapeutische Praxis. Now that, I would say, is in fact also their own practice of inner subjectivity for themselves and with the clients. So that's a second aspect of their life. At least in my life, this intersubjectivity, mutual intersubjectivity, which is the life in the Sangha, the life of Yohanasat, life sitting here with you guys, I recognize this as part of my practice. It's not I do this as a job. No, this is part of how I'm evolving as a person. As a whatever I am, I don't know. And then I may also have the more focused I do have Zen practice.

[33:31]

And you may too. And then you have we have probably a personal and social and familial life. So I'm imagining that as a psychotherapist, some of you have the practice of psychotherapy. And that becomes actually a significant part of your life as a kind of mutual intersubjectivity. And then you may have a third, which is a more formal Zen practice, sitting in the morning or in the afternoon or something.

[34:43]

And then also your social and familial life. Okay. Now, my effort is to bring those four aspects, which are my life too, into a context that works in an integrated way. So there's a full recognition of the therapy and the Zen practice and the inner subjectivity that's part of it. And your social and personal life.

[35:49]

Okay. So what I'm going to suggest now is that maybe after the break we discuss that a bit. Can we create a context which accepts all of these aspects and brings them together? Not saying one's better or better, but how do we bring them together? Because that's what we're doing, in fact. We're living it. Let's think about how to make it a workable context for us. Can we create a context, a connection, in which these four are all accepted and can come together and can work together?

[36:53]

And because that is what we do in our lives, we can maybe talk about how we can create such a connection. Okay. Thanks for translating. Nicole is waiting for something to change. Nicole is waiting for something that she can replace. I want to try something very banal, but something that still pleases me. Yes, that was the picture earlier with the room, that I am very happy that we are suddenly sitting like that and that I myself am always very amazed at how this house or this room transforms.

[38:00]

And then my gaze fell, for example, on old glasses from my mother, And these glasses were with my mother all the time. So when I was a child, there were a lot of things that were not used. You probably know that too, that everything was too good to be used. And now I'm just robbing my mother's house. And I get more and more objects, but then I realize that you can use them in a different way than you used to. For example, I find it uncomfortable to drink such glasses, but I use them for candles. Or I discover some kind of klaxon or some kind of pointy stuff that a woman now makes a hairband out of. so that I can move on. So that things are used differently than before, that also means to have a free spirit to come up with such ideas. Sometimes I really need a while for some things, until I realize why one could use it, because I feel so sorry to throw it away. And I think that also has something to do with this Buddhist attitude, or this observance that we also learn there, that meditating and so on.

[39:07]

in order to come up with new creative ideas. And I think this also applies to therapy, because sometimes people talk about therapy as if it were something serious. Basically, I always have the feeling that I have to invent a therapy for each patient or really invent a setting that fits. Who can I drink tea with? Who should I rather not drink tea with? Who sits where? And that's actually always a creation that takes place. And the freer I feel there, and the more the other person gets the space, so to speak, I want to develop it that way too. And the older I get, the better it gets. I would like to hear how you see it. I would like to say something about the context and the different views of natural science and Eastern thinking.

[40:23]

In the film Alphabet, and I have also read the book Alphabet, there is a point in which it is reported that one of the questions with which Chinese children were confronted And the question was, what happens when ice melts? And the teacher or the examiners wanted to have the answer, of course, water. But there was one student who wrote, if the ice melts, then spring will come. I also think again about this nazi topic.

[41:27]

If we are not formed more by our Christian collective unconsciousness, we will be born into a world I remember when I was a child, I had the idea that first the earth was created, then the plants and then the animals. It is quite clear that plants are one category, animals are another category. But that all stems from the background idea that it is a crab, a snake-eater, who does that. And then, yes, it is somehow far from being a collective. When we were in Morocco, That one believes wrongly is acceptable for a Muslim, that one believes in a false god. But that one does not believe in a god who stands behind everything, is unimaginable, [...] unimaginable.

[42:36]

I would like to bring in the word socialization in this context. And Roshi describes it as a cultural background, which is different in the East than in the West, quite obvious. And then within the different cultures there is something like socialization. And when I look at these categories that Roshi used earlier, social life, therapeutic life and practical life, What is the most important thing about this life, so to speak?

[43:41]

That's what the question asked me. And I experienced my development as, I could say, as three socializations. The normal socialization until the end of school, then the beginning of my socialization with the studies, the work and a kind of third socialization when I came into contact with Buddhism. And this third socialization was actually one that took place outside of more well-known cultural structures. It was in the structures, but a completely new kind of socialization. where I also had the feeling that I had seen her. And I had the chance not to change her, but to build her into my life in such a way

[44:44]

become the basis. Practical life became closer to my basis. It was a kind of decision. And that was the decisive point where I started to take my life into my own hands. Then there is something that I would like to say, which also gives the possibility to change basic things within predetermined cultures. We are bound, but not only bound. Yesterday the question came, yesterday it was told, movement and stillness.

[45:52]

And I was busy with it during the session. Where is the transition? I talked about it everywhere, the border, how close to the border and how far behind the border and so on, and I wanted to see what the transitions look like. And then I ended up in the Sesshin during the meditation that there is no transition. And then for me, somehow, and now we come to this context and so on, I suddenly thought, every moment, every second is a compact package. And...

[46:54]

Then suddenly the next question arose, and this is a bit because you just said it, Gerhard, with the decision, then I suddenly asked myself, in this huge compact package, which is there every second, when, for example, do I press the lever of the hot water from the shower, when do I turn it off? What leads to the fact that we as humans, let's say, we decide for one thing and take out exactly that from the huge compact circuit with our spirit body? I would like to ask another question, which is a question of distinction, and I would like to link it to the question of Gerhard and you.

[48:01]

It is very developmental-enhancing when I say that strangers are welcome, and this applies to new people. Some new events, as well as the fact that the asylum seekers are perceived as strangers and threatened or welcomed. So where is this decision-making instance in me and how does it affect the outside world? foreign and welcome and what is important to preserve or not to change in the festival? So to go into this room where one or the other direction is decided. How can I promote that it opens up more or expands? Yeah. I would like to add one more thing.

[49:13]

We have already discussed the subject of Nietzsche. The middle is everywhere. And we thought about it, is there something like the middle in Buddhism? And now again, Gerhard, I would like to ask myself the three areas, if I were to present them as a presenter, I would say, then I would say, practice, profession and family, for example. Yes, and do you want to listen to it? Is it good? I can't stand it, I don't want to listen to it. But it is good. [...] Yes, three. We have in psychoanalysis the concept of triangularity. It's just a middle.

[50:13]

It needs a field. And dual is a line. That's maybe harder to find. Well, you don't need a middle. I don't need to put a middle here. But it's always one. But they stand here, right? Would you also put yourself there? I don't like it. You could do it. I think it's an interesting question. My spontaneous answer remains in me. The middle is not a place, but my movement, my actuality. What I as the middle ignite, If I don't see the middle as a location, then I would say that it is the possibility to move one or the other. Yes, in the middle of the triangle.

[51:24]

I would also like to say something about what I have just experienced, that somehow this gas thing has something to do for me, where I did not dare to think about it. Is that an experience? I have a small family, a very close person is a cousin who goes to Söhr. I have a lot of exchange on the phone with her. Usually it's about family members, how they live, how I live. I don't want to talk about everything. But I'm always very loud about him. He has a husband. Then of course I come from another family, whom I don't know very well. I only lived with him once. I was very upset about it. Why should we be thankful? [...]

[52:26]

Why should we be thankful? Why should we be thankful? Why should we be thankful? created by youtube Uh, this relationship I had with my ex-boyfriend on vacation. There was an affair. An affair. The background is exactly the same as before. He was insanely aggressive. Kids. A few days later, I talked to his cousin on a date. Or a date. Stop. And I have then agreed to it. Now, as it suddenly behaves differently, also the women are close to him.

[53:28]

And I have to ask myself, what is so crazy about him? Because I say, I, [...] Thank you. That I now find myself in a special level of therapy. That this is such a different world. That there are people like these. Two, maybe. Misunderstanding. Feeling involved in the task. I have first-generation research and have first-generation studies. What is so interesting is the other innocence. I am in the middle of an Innocent TV.

[54:30]

So, it would be quite bad for us to live in Europe. One day, no one has changed. If subscribers have self-declared egoism, then that is not such a selfish business. And that was my whole question. So, to me, that's the whole thing. It's a psychotic thing. That's what it's like. I'm coming home. That's what I'm doing. I'm coming home. I'm coming home. In a free environment, where it is also free, a lot of people think of a choir. A lot of people are together. There are a lot of people who have a nice connection. [...] I don't know what to say.

[55:30]

um um um I am very happy to be able to speak to you today and to greet you in person. I am very happy to be able to speak to you today and to greet you in person. I am very happy to be able to speak to you today and to greet you in person. Thank you. Thank you.

[57:25]

Smut. [...] I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm just trying to describe it a little bit. [...] He doesn't understand it. I realized it, too, and it got so big. We live in such a place that we don't have to fight with each other.

[58:51]

We don't have to fight with each other. We don't fight with each other. We don't fight with each other. Because I don't know how to be there. And that has never happened. Even for them, it doesn't make any sense. Thank you for watching. uh Okay, now let's move on to the next question.

[59:54]

This is basically a question. What kind of human are you? What kind of human are you? I don't know. [...] Oh, he doesn't have to go there, dear God, he's everywhere. And he's there on Sundays, and he's there during the holidays. Then I decided not to go there. I sat with him and his little friend. Then during the time, he and his father, he and his father, he and his father, I also studied biology, because I wanted to know how biology works.

[61:30]

And biology was already in our ass. Everything is stuck. Dick is never stuck. Dick, that's my ass. And V.O.S. is completely shit. But what did you not give me? But what did you not give me? I know that as a teenager, as a day-to-day person, I know that all people live together in harmony without fighting. And in the end, that's how it is. In the end, that's how it is. There is such a thing as good, bad, [...] bad. I want to start the day out. I want to start the day out.

[62:30]

I want to start the day out. I want to start the day out. I want to start the day out. I know it. Yeah, me too. I know it. I know it. I know it. Verschiedene Gegenstände sind vorhanden und werden zufällig genutzt werden. Daher genotete ich euch teilweise auch so ein Thema und das sehr viel mehr. My role in this and my role in this and [...] in this

[63:34]

Someone looked at him like this. I have no idea at all. I just didn't understand. And I noticed. And I let go. And then I know the phase that you said this second phase. That H-hours usually come with such strange terms. In the meantime, I already know that it is important, but in a few hours, the things that he brings with him suddenly change, the things that you talked about, and And I had a very strange experience.

[65:09]

And before that, tomorrow is the day of Roshi. We started with one hit. We started with a practice. And there were a few people who did it.

[66:11]

And the next day we started talking about the experiences. We were very impressed. We were very impressed. I'm so proud of my parents who made me so proud and married me. And I'm so proud that this memory, that this experience, that this present is, and that I have to experience this. And then I thought to myself, I don't think I'm going to read it, because I'm going to read it compact. Compact has to push me back in. And then I thought, I wish I could, I wish I could ask, that we make such small practical units in between.

[67:17]

I save the physical experience for you. Yeah. And what do you think? It's a completely different story. It's really a company. I mean, in fact, I was very impressed by the view and the statement of the PMZOE.

[68:20]

The statement of the PMZOE is just one thing, and that it has been like this for thousands of years and has this impression that it is quite strong. I feel that the ER is here to help and say, Terry, do you understand that? What do you mean? I'm watching you. I don't know what you're talking about. I'm watching you. I don't know what you're talking about. I don't know what you're talking about. And to understand it, to do it, to implement it. Yes, to experience it or to live it. You can also understand it and not implement it. No, that's not what I meant. It's something directly from experience. And the art is then, from our point of view, let's say professionally and otherwise, to convey it in such a way that others can understand it and implement it.

[69:26]

And I always find that difficult. Or always... And I also noticed that when people ask me how I should do it and I start to explain it or something, and often people ask me again and again, [...] But somehow I also hit people with what I say or do, because it is not understood anyway. Yes, but when do you notice it? Because sometimes it is also asked. That is sometimes not even visible, I think. When is it too much or where is it meaningful and who asks? Where do you want to die?

[70:32]

Where is it really desired and where will it be? I think the challenge to overcome is to be able to pay for it. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, [...] yes. The first teaching, yes, so you feel, so I don't understand it that way, you would in this doxa sentence, if you say so apparently, and the teacher is the second teaching, but you feel totally the first teaching, and I, my feeling is, that is, I don't know, yes, I ask myself again the question who often asks her grandmother, Aloyma, what are you doing there?

[72:02]

The answer, looking, thinking, is not just this question a disturbance of the process? She answers in a proper way, as she has learned it. But maybe she's just in the middle of it all. Maybe it's not important whether she knows it or not. I think that the question, at the end of the day, is of course the question for all of us. What does it matter to me? What does it matter to you? Can I turn this question around, when it arises in us, just to ask it again? but I find it very beautiful to just be in the room with everyone. This question of what does it do, I also ask myself, because I find it very important, because when I am in such a room, no matter what it is, I can ask myself with everything, what does it do to me?

[73:15]

Not what does it do with the plant, the glass, the drum or the neighbour next to me, but what does it do with me. And yesterday there was an interesting statement here, when I go to a psychotherapist, then of course I expect that solutions are offered to me and that I am told what to do. But if I go there and go there with the approach, what does that do to me? That means, if I then grab you, there are words that have formed in me in this space, then comes the statement and then comes what has just been said together and the opportunity to learn to see arises. and then the question for yourself to learn, what does this do to me?

[74:23]

Because the difficult thing about the situation is to learn that this, what does this do to me, to let myself sink and to see what really comes out of it. Do the spirits think physically, mentally? Do I cry? Do I become sad? Do I laugh? What does that do to me? Then the questions that I have brought with me, where I expect a solution from the outside, which cannot come from the outside, can also be found. In this way, however, it is possible to find an answer from oneself. Then everything is together. So that would include what Andrea just said about this falling back into the original freedom, I would say, which then arises.

[75:35]

I would like to take one more big step back and just describe that it is already interesting that we are talking about such things here on the basis that Vekaroshi brings in a different perspective into our culture. a different way of seeing things. It is so difficult for me to put it into words. Is it necessary that what comes from the outside, that we really question ourselves so fundamentally in our way of seeing things? And when are we open to it? And when are we not open to it? And when do we turn it completely off? And when do we let it get to us? Does it have anything to do with the present cultural time? How does it happen that we open ourselves to, and that's what Buddhism does, to question ourselves fundamentally with our view, with our worldview?

[76:57]

And I find that very exciting. When are we as culture and when are we as individuals open to such things? Again, this topic of questioning comes to mind. When I was presenting this question to Paloma, I found that a question always requires the person who is being asked to give an answer which is a differentiation, I say. I do this, and when I do this, I do not do the other. not the other way around. I remember that a long time ago, a very long time ago, in great distress, I went on vacation and passed Freiburg and remembered that Dr. Dürkheim had his tent up there and so I called and wanted to have a conversation with him.

[78:02]

He said to me, in two weeks you can After a long time, the secretary said to me, I can come to a meditation. Then I went up there and sat with the meditators waiting in a circle, and he came in and said, I asked the newcomers to be silent and to come back. It was of course very threatening for me. I had this question and I was on my way to research this question from the museum and this old man, who was almost blind, looked in my direction and answered me and then

[79:04]

I had no idea what my questions were, and there was no need for an answer. I was simply blessed and was able to say what I wanted to say. That was something that was a bit mystical, because I had no answer to my questions. Thank you. It's interesting to me in this conversation so far. For me there were four aspects. And one of them was intersubjectivity, mutual intersubjectivity. And everyone left that out. What? Well, maybe so. We're doing it, yes. So I just wondered why the other three were mentioned, not the intersubjectivity.

[80:30]

And maybe you just conflate it with, I think it's the same as psychotherapy. But for me, it's whether the intersubjectivity arises through my lectures or my administrative work even in the centers. Or rose through my doing therapy, which I did at one time. For me, it's a field in which... experience develops.

[81:42]

And for me it's not the same as Zaza. And it wouldn't be true for all my disciples, but for some disciples, they develop their practice through developing a field in intersubjectivity with others. Okay, now let me say another thing related to what I said earlier. that maybe for you as those of you who are psychotherapists it would be useful to know this.

[82:43]

I've emphasized this morning how And the study of the world is in this yogic way of thinking about things, is first of all a study of oneself to make one, to develop oneself so that the world is accessible to you. Inwiefern das eine Art ist... Excuse me. The study is to... To study the world is first of all to study oneself and develop oneself so the world... So that you can know the world.

[83:47]

Now, there's traditional teachings about this. It's basic. It's the eight vijñānas. And we could translate the word vijñāna to mean something like to know things separately together. And we could translate the word vijñāna to mean something like Okay, so a little bit like Bernhard said, looking at the bee on the petal. Some of us may think, oh, well, our senses are just there, they're developed, we're born, and then we see the trees, you see green or you're colorblind or you don't, but it's just there. But in our Zen practice it's assumed that it isn't just there till you develop your own sensorial capacities.

[85:04]

I think Proust, who was walking along with his friend, Reynaldo, I believe. Proust. You don't say that now. Proust. I think it was Reynaldo. Proust. And he stopped and looked at a flower in a hedge along the street. And Rinaldo waited and just kept looking. Rinaldo. Rinaldo. So funny, he gave up and just walked around the block. A big block in Paris. It took him about 20 minutes to get around the block and when he came around, Proust was still.

[86:25]

And we know if you've read Proust that he's able to look at the details of intersubjectivity in a very refined topographical way. I also like the tomographical, because that would be something like to look inside the topographical. At least in our practice, we attempt to experience each sense. And each sense separately, each physical sense separately. And if you're serious about this you spend some days, weeks, months emphasizing a particular sense.

[87:48]

And you emphasize the sense sound, say, or seeing, independent of the object, and also how it arises through the particular object. And then you emphasize feeling the sense itself again independent of the object. Now, I characterize that most simply as you hear your own hearing of a bird. So you're not hearing the bird the way other birds hear the bird.

[88:59]

You're hearing your own capacity of hearing to hear the bird. So in hearing your own hearing of the bird, you become aware that you're creating the world. that this is your version of the world. So, with each sense you develop each sense as it arises with the object and each sense as it is creating the object. It both arises through the object and in effect is creating the object in our human terms.

[90:03]

In other words, you become aware of your senses making the world. And that process actually increases a more highly articulated world than when you just listen passively or look passively. And at the same time, since you're so clear that you are making this, it's close to your heart.

[91:07]

It's a world that belongs to you. You're not alienated from it. And at the same time, since you're so clear that you are making this, Then you study how the mind is part of each sense, each physical sense. If you didn't have a mind, you wouldn't hear anything. And then how the mind is independent of each sense and has its own cognitive field, writing from the past and so forth. And how your views edit what you see.

[92:17]

You only see, really in here, what you allow yourself to see. So then comes in the process of bringing views. Views are prior, as I've said, to perception. Consciousness has a very particular structure that is developed to hope for predictability. The job of consciousness is to make the world predictable. But if you practice meditation, and consciousness is only one aspect of your experience in meditation, And through the teaching of the Vaisakha and so forth, you begin to discover other wider realms of knowing, not limited to the structures of consciousness.

[93:49]

Even from your own experience, other potential worldviews that are hidden in the back corners of your mind and life begin to have some reality. And then when, in our case, we're intentionally bringing in yoga worldviews, that is another way in which you're able to be open to other worldviews that are prior to perception and cognition. So now you're beginning to be part of a world that you've developed the capacity for. And you can pull that world into yourself.

[95:17]

Because your developed perceptual and cognitive capacities now allow more of the world in. Weil deine jetzt entwickelten Wahrnehmungs- und Kognitionsfähigkeiten zulassen, dass mehr von der Welt einfließt. But now you also know simultaneously that the world that you're folding in is within the capacities, the developed and evolved capacities of your sensorial and cognitive ability. Aber jetzt weißt du auch, dass eben diese Welt, die du da einfaltest, So now you know that the world that you folded in belongs to you and you are folding it out. The exteriority is now the folded in world folded out. So now, if I'm giving a talk or something like that,

[96:22]

I'm speaking into my folded-out interiority which calls forth your interiority, I hope, And then you may have the experience, oh, he started talking about just what I wanted him to talk about. Because we created a mutual field through this way of being in the world. Now, let me say one other aspect of this which I think, again, would be useful, would be significant for psychotherapy. And let me just say, another aspect of it, which I think is more significant for psychotherapy, Yes, it's sort of like if you're doing Jungian therapy, you have Jungian dreams.

[97:53]

Doing Freudian therapy, you have Freudian dreams. You know, that's not completely true, but it's sort of like that. A little bit like that. If you do Jungian therapy, then you have Jungian dreams. If you do Freudian therapy, then you have Freudian dreams. And it may not be completely true, but something like that does exist. Okay. In any case, the analysis of the dream is very important for Freud and Jung. Okay. The trouble with most dream analysis is that dreams are analyzed in the service of consciousness. As if the real thing is to make consciousness more interesting or to tell you something that you don't know. I would say Zen practice reverses this process. Is that consciousness is analyzed in the service of dreaming?

[99:15]

Or the non-conscious deeper activity which we call the alaya vishnayana? Now in relation to that One of the main things you're doing in zazen, implicitly or explicitly, just by sitting, and slipping out of consciousness into associative mind and percept-only mind and so forth. You're developing the capacity to fold the world into yourself. and also to open yourself to folding your client or whatever into yourself. And related to that,

[100:16]

In zazen you find yourself often in a kind of mental interior space, whether you sit with your eyes open or whether you sit with your eyes lightly closed. You develop an interior... You find yourself in an interior mental... Yeah, I'm saying mental space. Okay. And that over and over and over and over again in any regular meditation that happens consistently.

[101:36]

And if you bring in a conceptual intentionality to that, it starts expanding, developing. You can get very skillful at seeing something way off in the distance and bringing it forward and putting it back, and where'd that come from? And it's like you're in the midst of a dream. But you can examine it with high degrees of detail. I would actually not say this is a mental space, but a bodily mind space. And when you find yourself in this space, your whole body and your spine is engaged.

[102:50]

And I'm quite sure even people who are born blind have this interior visual life space. Und ich bin mir ziemlich sicher, dass selbst Menschen, die blind geboren wurden, diese Art von inneren visuellen Raum haben. And this inner, this development of this inner interior visual, visual-like space. Und die Entwicklung von diesem inneren visuellen Raum, visuell-ähnlichen Raum. And becoming adept at it, skillful at it, relaxed within it. at home in it. It becomes a space in which you can think or know your thinking and know... have a new kind of cognitive knowing.

[103:52]

Das wird dann ein Ort, in dem man sein Denken kennen kann und eine neue Art von kognitiven Wissen haben kann. And then you find that very space allows you to dream and take a nap. And in that napping, prepare your lecture. And that is the same space you dream in at night. Now you develop the dreaming space in relationship to your meditative space And that dreaming, I don't know what to call it, that dreaming meditative somatic space is always present. And the world is in the midst of that during the day and during the night and et cetera.

[105:37]

Now you still may have involuntary dreams. Where the heck did that come from type thing you want to tell your therapist? But more and more it's a kind of interpenetrating knowing which includes involuntary aspects. That's the little thing I wanted to hear. No, no. And it is perfectly 12.30, so that's a mistake. So maybe we can hear the bell, and then we can have lunch. So I'll just turn it a few times. And by the way, some of you who are... I can tell are attentive. You'd be very kind to let me hear your voice sometime.

[106:54]

I think others would appreciate you going over the bump. The bell calls forth our interiority.

[108:17]

The world calls forth our interiority. And each person, each world of a person calls forth their interiority. This interior, which is also our exterior.

[109:04]

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