It continues with a non-attractive feeling. What else is there to say? I would like to share a short non-attractive feeling with you. And that's how I experienced it before. Namely, at the moment when the contributions become more and more and almost hotter and everyone wants to get to it, something to speak and you notice how the eyes are already going around, so when do I get space, when can I give something and a lot of people get in touch and this moment before Otmar then says speak you or speak you, this short moment before For me, this is a feeling that cannot be grasped.

[01:06]

There is a short tension in the room. What is happening now, in that moment? And everything is so expected and nobody knows what is coming. And this moment was for me this feeling that cannot be grasped. Thank you. What I find difficult, because it's not tangible, is when I have a question. If I have a feeling that something is not tangible, then it can happen very quickly that something mixes with it.

[02:08]

For example, Sometimes when you do something, for example in this situation, when you say something, I assume you know it, there are sensors that sense if it's okay now. Not even the question, but simply how it is. If it's okay, it's almost too much again. How is it? Is it in contact with the person I'm talking to or with the people I'm talking to? And that's where the resonance comes in for me. I would put the feeling in birds, in such an intangible feeling, which is very physical, which I could not describe, but which sometimes this resonance says, okay, now you can stop talking.

[03:09]

But then I realize that this quickly crosses a limit where I really have a question in the experience. When I then mix in some form of fear, let's say, or worry, it happens to me pretty quickly. And that's more this question, is that okay? Or should I have said it differently? And then it's very quickly no longer this untouchable feeling. But then it can become this fear, so to speak. Oh, it was definitely not okay. And then I notice that what I actually want to say is that it is very difficult for me to distinguish, to stay in contact with something that just feels like being in contact with something and my own projections in there. That is very difficult for me, especially on the level of feelings. I don't know if you have any reactions or answers. Yes, I wanted to react to that, because, for example, I now come into the room and see, well, there is such a thick air, a bad mood, is that now, then really also, because I had this non-aggressive feeling, no, I take as, well, am I strong,

[04:33]

more convinced that it is objective, that it is just so. But it is also part of my construction of myself. Because if I was someone else, I would say, you are right, [...] Do you mean the interpretation of... No, no, but with this feeling, there is, when I say, you feel a bad mood, then it has to be like that, because the feeling is more, so you are so strangely sure, and that, yes, that fits better, because it is not so certain. As you just said, this is also what Thich Nhat Hanh wrote in his book this morning, that the area of perception, he says, is where deception arises.

[05:46]

That one is most easily confused with one's own things, that is exactly the area. And then to look closely, what is deception and what is really, as you say, art. But in the area where deception arises. At the moment he has written about the area of the perceivable, or the area of the non-aggressive feeling, because perceivable, I can already, I am sure that something feels cold, hot, warm, hot, or whatever, but ultimately here in this room of feeling, to perceive what you can not grasp, there is somehow already a certain amount of trust in it, or if I call it that, to say it is right or it is not right, there comes immediately such a doubt again, so I think here, there it is rather impossible, in the area of ​​the vanillin, in the next, what is it there?

[06:51]

He said, everywhere in Iran, there is corruption, there is corruption. So I was already in the third one. He said, come in. I was already in the third one. Sorry. Because of bad moods. Because of bad moods. Because of bad moods. Andreas and then Dieter. Well, at the beginning I was in the business with Anders Allmer, we got pretty far again, because this to have this feeling and to immediately feel the resonance from me, and that has to do with the fourth skander, and I also believe that there is a connection somewhere.

[07:58]

I don't know how, but if I perceive something somewhere, it doesn't always mean that I connect something with a feeling or a story or something like that. For me, this is actually only in the fourth stage. And this connection between the second and the fourth is not really clear to me either, because there are often so deep Empfindungen, die aber sehr viel mit meiner Prägung, mit meiner, mit meiner frühen Geschichte zu tun haben. Wo ist da dieses, wo fängt es an, fängt es an, in dem, dass es anfängt, eben zu bewerten, dass es anfängt, Leiden zu erzeugen in mir? I think at this point you said a resonance and resonance fits wonderfully here, but resonance is something different. than to add an I and to say, now I know what that is.

[09:18]

I can notice a resonance or notice somewhere without naming it, something resonates with me, there we also come in the direction of Dharmakaya. there is a kind of oscillation, and from this oscillation, an information emerges. This could be called resonance. But this changes when I say, now I have it, or now I try, Now I try to grasp this non-flexibility in me, and you can really imagine that something is floating in me, and I try to grasp it, but at that moment it doesn't actually float, but then it settles down. So I think you have to ... That is then the reaction, that is then the reaction, reaction to it, so not resonance, but reaction, that is what is written there. That would then be a grasp, Yes, exactly. So from this resonance then, for example, the feeling of fear arises in me?

[10:28]

What is in resonance and suddenly arises this feeling of fear, that would then be the grip? No, I would say that when something resonates in you and you feel that it is fear, then that is still in the resonance, You notice it and you reach for it afterwards, but nevertheless it is somewhere clear that something has done something with it. There I would say that it is still in this untouchable feeling and to notice that something is resonating with you. Yes, yes, okay, okay. May I touch your head now? No, no, no. What is really my experience and where do I mix my experience with concepts? And what is really my... my own experience, what I experience in my search and research, and I find it quite difficult to know where I mean to experience something, because the body and the mind [...]

[12:16]

I have read all the things that went around with him, I have looked up the lexicals and all kinds of other books that I have found, and I have now tried them out in advance. And the first thing I can say is that from my experience, really physicality is the most important thing, You mentioned earlier the word cellular, of course I can feel my cells, but it is so very, very physical, and my current assessment, experience and interpretation of the second scan is the first physical, random, reaction or resonance, for example, that was said resonance, that is, after the contact of the signal, the first thing that comes there and that is when I touch something hot and it is still in the bodily area, but when I come into a friction or someone is sympathetic or unsympathetic to me,

[13:43]

Without thinking, without anything, you find body-like resonance, action, input in the stone. And then, first, I take it as it is. What I take as it is, I simply take it as it is. There we have a very good question and there we also come to the classification, where is the second classification? The body helps me to try it out. I also know the term, I have a gut feeling and that would be such a place where you could get it, the gut feeling, that would be this physicality. and then it can quickly merge with associations.

[14:51]

I don't like it, it splits immediately. And when is it immediately resonant? Or in my historical story it immediately unfolds and then I am immediately in the associative area. After this first ... That was in detail. When I speak to a group and I don't know the people well, I try to make it out of a resonance or an openness. And when I hear things like, how did it come about, or was it too much or too little, then I notice this openness,

[15:52]

In retrospect, I often notice that they were not really open. It was not like, we are all here for the first time and let's see what comes next, but it was already a bit of a slur and I had to keep it open in some way, but there was already a kind of agenda in it. And to feel that at that moment was really difficult for me. And I often only noticed it in the end, when I said something, like my voice or something else was mixed with it. and sometimes it is very rare that it becomes more open during the speech, but I also find it very difficult to distinguish what is really open from the beginning and what I notice in the act of doing it, because somewhere there is something else in it that colors the whole thing a little.

[17:04]

And that is simply trying everything. I think we always have to make sure that in this practice here not to have anything to do with what is always there and I notice it or I don't notice it or I'm not so sure about it or whatever, but if the whole thing is an activity and if it is only an activity, and that is also the great teaching that we all know, then that means that in the moment when I direct my attention to something, for example to a feeling here in the room, which I cannot name, but that somehow means something, then one could of course say, yes, that is always there and I have to somehow, I am not allowed to grasp it, but I still want to know what it is.

[18:15]

but what is also behind it is that by generating the attention to something, we also generate what is there. That is, by directing the attention, what my attention is focused on is generated somewhere. I go to an activity and my focus or my attention is generated the object of attention, or is at least involved in the object of attention, and then I get, when I make this experience, then I just get a different trust. that I am involved in the creation if I give this creation a space. That is something different from saying, I have to get this out now, and that is there and as always, I am not allowed to do so much with it, but I still want to know what it is.

[19:26]

That is a different way of thinking. And that applies to the first and that applies to the second, More than just for the third. Because the third is, there is already more information added. And the information that comes in the third, there we are in a more routine way to notice this information. But we simply don't have a routine in here, we don't know that that way, but through the practice and through the guidance of the attention that arises. And that's a big difference. Dirk, and then Agatha, and then Ivo. It's getting a little hard, but I stopped it again. As you said, the fear still belongs to it. But only stopped, not that I... And then I thought about it. First of all, there are two terms for fear and fear. I read once, I don't know if it's true, that this is only different in Germany, and that fear is also spoken of in German, that poetry is concretely drawn to something, that is, I can only have poetry when I have named it, fear can be a mood underneath it.

[20:42]

So I could understand it then, that maybe it was meant that fear as a mood or the idea of fear as a mood, so I could also keep that in mind, that I say that this also belongs to it, Although it also occurs to me that I only hold it for a very short time. I like it because it's my favorite skater, but I only hold it for a very short time. That I am his favorite skater? The second, yes. In practice, I am the reddest. But I only hold it for a very short time. And then I come back to my bed, so to speak. But it jumps very quickly. And in terms of feeling, I would also have said, if you had asked me now, you have to divide my body into parts, I would also have said stomach. Yes, I still have difficulties with this feeling. This morning, as far as I can remember, we emphasized the importance of openness, that we are not yet involved in our own history or our own selection processes.

[21:56]

I will give you an example of how I do it. I come to a seminar for family members and I see different people and I have not made any choice, nothing at all, but I just come into the room and I feel resonance with a certain person and she is neutral, so it's actually just A, A, I open up, A, I open up, like that. And then I do something about it, then I notice, then I do something about it, which is interesting. So those that I actually just notice because there is a resonance, I already evaluate. And it turned out at that time in this situation that really these people who struck me in the first second, that they were the ones who had a similar that they really had something to do with me, and you can see or feel that just as you enter the door, and there is such an area with this feeling that it has something to do with my previous life, which gives me an indescribable feeling or resonance, so there are very fine gradations,

[23:32]

but it is usually neutral. Yes, it is neutral, it is just ... It is already in you, you are balancing something, you recognize something again. I once did such a project ... Energy, it is energy, energy flows. Yes, but you can recognize similarities much easier. I think so too. I also think that when you observe how someone makes the exhibition, I think that she operates for a very, very long time within a field of untouchable feeling. And within this field, she puts the people down and I don't think that she could then immediately grab it and say, here, so and so and so, here is the problem or there is the problem.

[24:36]

I believe that the great art circle is long, to work with these non-aggressive feelings and to simply be close to them, to simply give them a space and to act in this space without wanting to grasp the whole thing now and to want to hold on and to come closer. The exhibition itself is a bit different again. You can also have these body feelings that are pleasant and pleasant. Yes, that's right, that's what it's about, but someone who does it, who is in charge of the exhibition. I think they have to be able to be short for a long time. This openness leads to the feeling in this room, if we are going to do an exhibition here now, without the whole thing being held down. But an openness for it and through this openness we create this space of openness. I think that's what we can talk about.

[25:48]

So, where was I now? I have a remark about what you said earlier, the example of feeling in a group as an example of a non-contactable feeling, and that in that sense because it is not yet greatly influenced by me or myself. We are now a group and I assume that if everyone would try to feel the incompatible feeling now, there would be different feelings. Well, I can also be deceived on this level.

[26:51]

Deceiving in the sense that as a group leader it can go into your pants if I don't feel it. Yes. It's not deceiving in the sense of cognition, but deceiving in the sense of not being able to read or feel me. And what I want to say with this is that it is not specifically Buddhist that there is more or other than oneself to be human or to feel otherwise. And yes, point. That was one thing. And the second thing, you said that you also create the non-aggressive feeling.

[27:54]

And for me the question is, for me it is still very subject-object, not yet so clearly distinguished. And I experience the non-aggressive feeling as a perceive or feel, but not control or create. So it's passive, I'm doing something, but it's a passive mode, it's not, and it's not so clear where it's coming from, but I notice it somewhere, it has something to do with me. If someone came in here and said, I have a feeling that this is not tangible, I will mix it up, or I will say something about it, then there is too much of you behind it, and then the whole thing can't work. What I also came up with is, Ivo, did you go to the choir last weekend? No. We played a choir here.

[29:07]

Someone sat in the middle. And then it's about the student circling the teacher three times and then we had Roshi's staff and then And then there is a noise and then someone says in the middle, right, right. And the next time it's called wrong, wrong. And that's where it ultimately goes. about right and wrong, or about leaving the right and the wrong aside, but simply the situation that has arisen there, from this togetherness, which can, if I do not grasp it, can therefore be really wrong, but it is simply somewhere, that is what is there. And when it is said that not knowing comes next or that I am always close to it, and I say that I am always close to it, then I cannot say that I am close to it in the wrong way or that I am close to it in the right way or something like that.

[30:23]

Close to it is somehow close to it, there is no right or wrong. I can describe it very well. because for me it is almost a completely wrong word, let's say stomachache or something that is not neutral. It is a feeling that I am now tuned in to this on this feeling, but it's just because I don't appreciate it or because I think it's not good or it's not bad, then it's not bright, it's not dark, it's not warm, it's not cold, it's just like some kind of tension or some kind of it is more like a physical situation or something like that, and as soon as I want to call it a feeling or the air comes into the room, then it is already something, it is like when you feel the radio channel, but not what comes in, I don't know,

[31:30]

A fine tuning. Yes. Yes, the examples help me to find the non-aggressive. I like the exhibition, because I see the non-aggressive feeling when you do something with the exhibition. Then you just go somewhere and stand there. And that is not there yet. And then it is looked at, how do you feel there? I mean, already in the third, the whole thing. Before that, only the stomach is washed, then I go there.

[32:44]

So, for example, I see that here in the room. Everyone is now sitting in a place. And then he has, somehow, in the resonance, Without thinking about it, I sit down with Dieter in the middle. Everyone is sitting in the place that is right for them. And I think the feeling to have for it is the second stage. If you ask now, yes, I like it, I sit very well, then you are already in the third. But why I'm sitting here now, I can only let it stand as an understandable feeling. Can you explain it to me in that way? Maybe it's not always a good thing. Yes, it was good. Why do you sit down then? Well, there are such referendums.

[33:45]

Now it would be particularly cool for one. Yes, but due to our history, we are also... No, it's fine. Why do you sit down? Why? I think it's a bit fragmentary. This resonance, again, from before, with the fear. It doesn't matter, it can also be something different with the because the resonance comes up and then the attention is generated. I can understand that very well. And I think that when something like this comes into force

[34:50]

Fear is also a very strong or joy or something, it can be very strong physically and it certainly has something to do with history. Of course, there are human basic feelings, but there are no stories. You spoke of your childhood and we had an eye conversation earlier. I think that I is not yet involved in the sense of consciously, but it is stored in the body, experience, stored body experience. This is something different than when someone switches on and says, now I'll mix it up. So, yes, now I'm doing something out there, now I'm doing something out there. I think that this familiarity with people, with water, with a tree, with a flower, with a scent, suddenly there is a smell and it is not there at all.

[35:56]

Suddenly I smelled something and I asked, nobody smelled it, I smelled it and it was a crazy story. something in me that has a memory, and then there was this noise in my nose, and I was just lying on a chair, and then there was no noise, so in fact there was no noise, and I think that has nothing to do with the ego, but with incendiary movements, Lignana, or is that how it's called? Lignana. Yes, Lignana. This big pot that we are burying. And then something explodes. And that's why I think it's really an encounter. To feel it from the point of view of women.

[36:58]

Also... Very close to it, I also see it that the first one is a little stronger physically and the other one a little higher. I also said that yesterday, that it needs even more basis. I would just like to know where this is anchored, what it means for you, where can I feel it, I often have this feeling that it is not in my stomach, but in the form of a kind of being body, I can express this very well, where this cloud or this liquid

[38:03]

I don't want to localize it, but I know that it is around me. I will support you. So in these different levels that I have built up in my research, the experience of feeling is not so very localizable, it is through the stomach, it is also a basic feeling, but there is often ... Yes, well, when I started to make my notes, at the very beginning, I often wrote down Shakra instead of Skanda. And I think, well, the Shakra is of course much more differentiated, well, not differentiated, but something different, but a lot of it overlaps quite clearly.

[39:15]

Yes, it is part of it. You said earlier that the form can be attributed to the space of the third eye. Would you say that the second chakra is the solar plexus area? Yes, I would say so. What does that mean, if we have different experiences about it? I really can not agree that it is the stomach or the liver, but rather I experience it as Andrea, what does that mean now? Is that what it means? No, but maybe it does not really mean that it is the body, I do not know, but that's what it is. No, that's probably not clear to decide now. but that people experience different things.

[40:27]

And the feelings have different positions. And the body is bigger than the body? If I were to assign this, I know that from the sound, in the world I am dead, I don't know where to go. That's how I might have misunderstood it, I would have said the picture, then the first thing that fits into the picture is a head, third eye, the other picture is there, but I don't think it should be a relation of the actual experience. That's how I didn't understand it, that's why I didn't admit it, because I say I experience it, of course, I only help the whole body, I'm not localized either, but only as a picture, to have a picture-like experience. That's how I understood it. We don't try to exchange our ideas, our experiences with ourselves.

[41:28]

There are individuals. And if we exchange our experiences here, then there is no right and no wrong. If you tell me, Agatha, I experience it this way, then I wouldn't say wrong, wrong, wrong. Agatha, I wanted to have you. Yes, we are ready here, we are in a position through all the words and through our common practice that we have derived and through a very large philosophy and concept of the teacher, we are ready to talk about it. That's already a huge step we're taking. Man, imagine that. That's a huge step. Ten years ago, nobody would have said, please tell me something, but leave me alone in peace. Or I don't know what to say about it at all. And in the meantime, we're in the position and can sit down and can... to exchange the concepts, but also to exchange the experiences.

[42:34]

And that is a huge step, and there is no right and no wrong. Of course, we can say from the concepts that it is not like what Bojgaroshi understands, or that it is like what Ptignathan understands, or like some Sanskrit books, or you can explore the whole library, and then you have ten different other possibilities. Some say that so and so and so. That's not right or wrong, it's just different concepts. It's interesting. Yes, it is. It's interesting, but it would be way too complicated if we said, we have to do this and that. Let's stick to one thing and then... We can talk about it and say, how do I experience it? And the way we all experience it, it's right now. It can be today evening, tomorrow morning when we sit down, it can be something different. We don't have to settle for the next Kalpas and say, this is how we experienced it, this is how it is right.

[43:42]

This is right now and maybe I'll sit in it tonight and then it really looks completely different again. If I don't sit in it in the evening or in the morning, then I can say, I'm experiencing it differently again. Or as I talked about it this morning, maybe that's not at all true, that's the way it is at the moment, and then it's at that moment that it's right, that's this activity. I would also like to say that we should just be careful that we don't fall into such a trap, because we just always think and we have to be clear about the fact that even between these scandals there are areas in which this really overlaps, right, that's why I think you can't say that so clearly, but I think it's good if we now end up writing it down in such a general orientation. Yes. And it is now being used as an activity. Right, and if we would stick to that now, then after a while we could sit down here again and it would look completely different or we would have another different experience.

[44:46]

And that's the wonderful thing, that's the dynamic behind what we're doing here. I think One thing is experience, and as you say, if we share our experiences, then we share experiences with the end of the story. No right or wrong, every experience is the experience. What we are doing now consciously for the first time among ourselves, is that we put our experiences, which all are true, into these five bodies. and the five bodies have a long history, and then you have to think about where this is now part of, and then the main tradition is that there is a right or wrong, that does not mean that the experience is wrong, but here it is fine, it is not as easy as we notice, and what is happening now is that we are partly mixing

[46:01]

from experience, where does it belong now, and then it goes back to the flow of Kandas, so that it is not so clear where we actually speak. I would also like to point out that there is a different relationship between whether we exchange experiences, whether I think about it as I understand it, where does this experience belong to me, because that is a whole other story. I think that's important, but there are also experiences that have been made, but they are not so simple. You have to be able to withstand that. I can only say the second, the third, and there are also those who are oscillating in between. That's what you meant.

[47:04]

Nicole and Jonas. Nicole, Andrea, sit down. On the forehead. Yes, I wanted to support Ivo, that's exactly what you said, I found that very important. I also think it's great that, as Ottmar said, that we have this opportunity to experiment and that, above all, for me, it is the great achievement of such a seminar, to sit together with other people for four days, to keep this focus, to keep the scandals in view. I think that's great. But what I notice myself is that I sound like this because it really confuses me in the practice. And that would be very sad if I go out now and then get more confused afterwards than when I went in.

[48:10]

That would be a shame. What amazes me is when we start reinventing the wheel. There is a philosophy of the skandhas and it has been really worked out. And Roshi also teaches it very clearly. He has developed a very clear vision of the skandhas throughout his life. And I think it's great that we represent them deeply. But I notice that sometimes it's also quite normal in the conversation that a lot of aspects appear at the same time. I don't think that's bad at all. But where I notice that it confuses me, like the last, I don't know, quarter of an hour, 20 minutes, where I think that we're trying to reinvent the wheel a little bit, to fill the second agenda a little bit, not just with our experience, but almost redefine it. And I have to say, I can understand the question for myself, where would I locate a physical feeling, but to start to locate the skandhas in the body and to write down the body areas, that doesn't work for me. I'm more like, as Andreas says, that really confuses me when I have to look in my stomach for the second skanda.

[49:14]

Then I'm really confused. That's how I don't experience it. No, you shouldn't search, you should really experience it. It's something different when you willingly start searching in your practice. When you learn it, it's something completely different. Yes, but I can also experience it from the chest. Or from the whole body, above all. Yes, that's the question. What I'm trying to say is that I think what I find important for us to learn in this experimental field is to really use the dialogue in such a way that it really supports our practice. And what I noticed is that the last 20 minutes have confused me a lot. So that's what I find confusing. But this is often a phase in the process. Yes, you are right. I was still very clear about the will from meditation and from the Johanneshof. The machine is often confused. Well, okay, but watch out.

[50:29]

It would be confusing if we hold on to something like this, what we say. And if I write it down, the second one goes over to the stomach, for example. Do you understand what I mean? Yes, of course. Yes, that's what I mean. We have a doctrine, and that's what I mean. Okay. Do you understand? Then don't write it down. Yes. There were a lot of things that I don't know exactly. Is it the teaching as you presented it, or are we trying to fill ourselves with our own experiences? I don't know, Ivo also understood that the question is, how can we share our experiences with each other? But to represent the teaching itself is simply a different level. Kerstin, do you agree with that? Yes, that's right. On the other hand, we also have to look at what may not have worked so precisely, if there is the philosophy, the concept behind the first, behind the second and so on, that I sit down and say, this is the concept, this is right, I practice myself, I experience myself in this direction.

[51:39]

but I don't think it works that way either. I can only say that I look at what my experience is now and compare my experience with that. I can't go in one direction and even if it is only the absolutely correct definition, experience it. That doesn't work either. I have to put my experience as the highest priority and say I experience it this way. and if I do not experience it as the wonderful philosophy says, then I have to first say from my experience that this is my starting point and that nothing is wrong with it. Yes, that's for sure. Yes, then I still have the right one and then I can change it again, but as my starting point I have to trust what I experience and experience first. And he said, Roshi, explain to me how to do it.

[52:45]

So I said, yes, of course. Thank you very much. Thank you for the many wonderful times.

[53:19]

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