Before we start, I have a small request for Adel. Yes. I have noticed that we are actually such experts in awareness and in field awareness and so on. I have noticed that everything is going very fast and that it is a bit of a race as to who will arrive at all. And we would also like to do Paws for the Particular. And I think it would be nice to have a little break between the individual contributions. and you just feel it in the field and look, because some haven't said anything yet, maybe they don't want to say anything, but maybe they just didn't come to terms with it, and I think that we are in such a protected frame here, it doesn't have to be perfectly formulated and not be thrown away immediately by not finding the right words or something like that,

[01:01]

Who wants to do something else? Now. Now do something. Now do something. Now do something. I'll start now, I didn't express myself at all in the morning. I listened to everything in the morning and thought it was incredibly interesting and beautiful. I refer to myself as Kanda Frischling. I tried to deal with the scandals for two years and that confused me so much and made me almost aggressive and because I didn't understand at all what it was supposed to be and I let it be and now I take the chance to deal with it again.

[02:31]

And I think it's incredibly great that you all wrote, that you all talk and it inspires me a lot. But what I notice now, for me, is that these Khandhas are actually always there for me and that I always notice them. But actually only in retrospect. Of course, I notice a lot in Sazen and also in my everyday life. And that I now, through this construct, only in retrospect notice that these are these standards. What I can't do is that I immediately and say, yes, this is form, this is feeling.

[03:39]

Of course, I immediately noticed consciousness. But yes, it helps me now to hear this from all of you, and somehow it unfolds now, it opens up so much for me, and that is very, very helpful. Now I can only join in. Dieter Hohe explained it to me during the week. That's why I didn't hear it in the afternoon. Now I'm curious. I'm sure I've already I'm doing it, but I'm absolutely not in a good mood right now.

[04:39]

I have to take a break in the morning. I can't say that I don't have a lot of sound or maybe not. Yes, I went out the day before. Did you have any compulsions at the end? Or did you have a consistent decor at the end? No, we did it in the middle. Sabina just said that the Scandals are always there. Is that right? Yes, I think the Scandals are what makes the Saib in general. Do you think they have the potential to actualize it?

[05:44]

In principle, they are there, but you have to deal with them or follow them. Otherwise you notice that something is going on unconsciously. I would say that the skandhas are never there, except that I use them. I use them, I need them, I create them. How to categorize? I meant the process that is behind it. They categorize something that really takes place. They categorize their constructs, but still something takes place, right? There is a mental activity, yes, and I conceptualize it in the scanner. And who says that they exist? Now there is something like mental activity.

[06:52]

If I can do that, then I would give it to you. How does it only exist if I don't use it? I feel that. But mental activity doesn't exist either. It only exists, and that's why I said it. It's always a potential. You have to update the mental activity. It doesn't run, so it's still around. My mind is always active. Leave something out. My mind is always active. Yes, to breathe in. Yes, to breathe in. To breathe in, to get up a little. But the thing is always there. The body does not really stand alone, it is simply a phantom, a concept with which we, but what we experience for us is a bit more tangible, maybe a bit more tangible.

[07:53]

or something else, how we see ourselves, how we see this current of the normal self. It is simply a different form or a different reality to share it. You believe, do you believe that you always go through this process of the five stages and sometimes you don't notice it? or what does not exist? No, I believe that I have permanent activity, yes, spiritual activity, and I notice, of course, that I am with the practice more often, and also how she puts them together, how she configures the individual components for this soup, yes, how she throws them in, yes, and the scanner then only has a possibility to see that.

[09:13]

Bekashi once said that when you imagine that someone has overcome this by himself, then you can say that this could be a kind of salvation. But the question is, who or what will be saved? The self. Probably. Well, that is already the case, when we lose ourselves, that is, the feeling of fear that you talked about in the Ego, I know that very well. At the beginning, as I have already said, it has happened very often, very often, this fear that I am losing myself, that I am losing myself in the end. What is there when I give up my self-identification?

[10:20]

And then I say, it can be very easy. I think it should be released. I think it should be released. that it becomes a matter of consciousness to go through the other scandals beforehand, perhaps not necessarily with the fourth one, I'm not so sure, but when I look at someone, for example, or look at a lamp, then a kind of selection has been made beforehand, that is, I have somehow brought all the information that is here in the room into the foreground, and there must have been an impression first, and somehow I kept the thing fixed for so long that then there is a physical resonance or a sensory resonance, which I think is always there, and at some point it comes the time that I really perceive it as if I were looking at it from the other side, and then I say, okay, this is a lamp,

[11:41]

and at some point the name comes to mind, and maybe that I know, in quotation marks, what a lamp is, and so on, but at first it was just an impression of brightness or something like that, and I think one does not overdo it, it is not just that I jump from a moment of consciousness to a moment of consciousness, and there is nothing in between at all. I don't think so, unless maybe it happens sometimes when you move in totally abstract thoughts, but I don't know if that's possible. I also believe that thoughts have a body resonance somewhere and have a fundamental part somewhere. And to the question of what one actually saves, well, when one actually saves, so to speak, such a state of, how should I call it, of the original being, where there is still hope, where there are possibilities, where I am more identified with the space, which allows me to appear at all, than with the content, with what is concrete there.

[13:00]

and who then gives me all these possibilities and this free movement with how do I react to the dream, what do I do with the dream. I would also like to add to what you said earlier in Köln, this one thing, This one night has a lot to do with, on the emotional level, with fears, where we simply also, so I experience that at the moment, since I am more intensively engaged with the skandhas, also thanks to your many writings and so on, I experience a slowdown in me and also such a feeling of losing the ground in my everyday activities, which also touched me very much in the writings of Ulrike, which you have given me before.

[14:03]

That was exactly the topic that I am dealing with at the moment, even when I, for example, work with my groups, with Tai Chi and Qigong, which is a work in which you work very strongly with the breath and also work very strongly with the flow and also work with the space, and where I noticed that sometimes I have moments where I completely disappear and where I really have to get my consciousness as a rescue anchor, in order to gain a foothold in what I am doing at the moment. This is my approach at the moment. I am a person who has a lot to do with fear. I was also born in the war, so a lot of things have become clear to me. I have also had therapy for a long time, but especially because of that

[15:03]

I have also experienced many things as a child who are sitting inside me and who have also given me a weak nervous system, and it is also such a certainty in physical therapy, for example, where one says that when one is in stress, then one always falls back on the old structure, and that is exactly what especially when I am stressed, or for example yesterday when I arrived, I was still completely stressed, and then I get the message that I want to go to the toilet, [...] and then I get the message that I want when I find myself in this scandal, when I fall into the form and only want to perceive the signal, that is, the form as a signal, that is incredibly difficult for me, because it is a need for survival for me to have immediate control over the momentary situation.

[16:28]

I will go very quickly to the question, are they always there or not? I don't know what is true and what is not true, I only know what my practice approach is. And that's actually the same as, you probably all know this story or most of you, when Suzuki Roshi was asked, how is it with a tree when it falls over, if no one sees it, has it fallen over or not? And he said, it's a killer. And the answer is, it doesn't matter. I don't know if they exist here or not, it doesn't matter. But they are in my practice a model, a system that I can use to investigate the perception process. And perception increases awareness. Yes. Now let's start with the form.

[17:49]

And that means, somehow, we have all perceptions, that means, everything has to appear somehow, otherwise we can't perceive it. We only get the appearance, most of the time we get Garry Schmidt. Nevertheless, I ask myself, If I do not direct my attention to this appearance, is that there? Theoretically yes, otherwise I would not be there if I did not hear the appearance. But is it still there if I do not direct my attention to this appearance of form? Someone sent me all the texts from Ketaproshik and there was something in it that he didn't mean that you just walk through stages, but that you actually

[19:05]

when the whole is there and we can now emphasize the difference we can take the emphasis on the form that means that the other is not there either so we can now emphasize the form so that we can get there so that we can embody the form more strongly than the other in order to make the form stronger and that was understood very well and there are no consequences, I also understand that because I think that there are no consequences there are consequences and we can achieve them I think that's the first thing I can do Yes, yes, that's it. And you assume that the subject and object are not yet connected. That's right. If there is a sound, if one of you does not hear it, then the sound is objective in everyday understanding and also scientifically natural, Subjectively speaking, the sound is there.

[20:16]

Then the signal is only there when I perceive it. Otherwise it makes no sense. It's all about the experience. it's not about parking somewhere, it's all about what it does to us. So that's how I understand the practice. What does it do to me when I am aware of it, make an experience with the signals, then it is really relevant. And if it doesn't appear to me, If you tell me that you hear a bird and I hear a snowball, then the bird is for you and the snowball is for me. Isn't that right? So I don't think the question is that important.

[21:18]

You're still asking the question. Gregor. Gregor. I always know what I'm asking, but I don't want to answer that question. That's an innocent question. I wanted to ask you a question, but I'm trying to find out if it could be the same as what you're asking. When we talk and exchange opinions, we always say I. And I now give an answer to what you just said, whether it was there before or not.

[22:27]

Before in the kitchen, I had a towel and a kitchen towel in my clothes. And I didn't open it, but my hand opened it. There was ... there must have been some kind of illusion or something that the hand had put in order to catch this thing ... that it lay on the floor. And I ... at first dared to do it, but after that it was the other way around. But there was something going on ... that ... I don't think I could have done it. There is something. How do you perceive it? What is it? Well, I have just heard a work by T. Schumpf, that Groschi takes this as an example for being true, that, for example, when we fall down and wear a glass cover, we fall down so badly that it does not break, that this is to be believed in being true.

[23:42]

So it reacts, it does something. We'll leave this question open first. I can't decide that myself either. The question is again 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. while we are still going through these processes somewhere. We always get over it very quickly. That means we are actually in the think. This is a very fast process and we don't get the steps before at all. And I just let the question stand there, is that still there or do I need attention that I direct somewhere in order to create my attention, to generate it, or is it just that it is still always there and now I have attention and then it just becomes clear to me that it is there.

[25:04]

This is a whole process in the Buddhist teaching. Is everything always there and only through my attention does it become clear to me that it is there, or do I achieve it through my attention? I think the topic is difficult because when I think of form I imagine a thing and when I have a thing I throw it in the bin and say it was form and it is now in the bin. But that is already a thousand times a hectare of form, everything else has already passed through it. If, as we always hear, there is no entity, there is no thing and then I can't throw the thing on the shelf with all the forms, but where am I when everything is activity and I am not yet separated from the other activities and if it had such a name as with all connections, with all

[26:37]

Okay, then. Yes, Gregor. Yes, Gregor. Well, what helped me was also the understanding, because the word form also led me to Sakkasa first, because form, well, this is all form, but the definition, so something that is outside form. But the definition of the first skanda says clearly that it is the object and the eye sees something, but the eye is also form. That there is already an object and a sublip in this term form can not be separated.

[27:45]

That's why I'd rather have a term that ... I'll say it again, it's the body. Because the body we already refer to us. But actually it is already in there, that it is both, and you can breathe it out of each other. I find that the concept of form has confused me, and in the end what has come about is that it is my first experience, that is, in contact, it is my sense experience, for me it is form, I don't know what I mean by that. And if I don't experience it, then I don't feel separated from it. But nevertheless, I have to have experienced it for the first time. It doesn't matter if it's there or not.

[28:47]

It can also be a dream. It can be something that pops up. But the meaning for it has to be achieved. I think it is important that we now notice, when we talk to each other, that we mainly talk from the consciousness counter about the other counters. This is also the danger in the previous scandal, where I see triangles and squares, this is conscious thinking. This can be seen when you are aware that you are describing it from a conscious point of view, but what is meant is the very first contact, perception, where I don't even know what it is I don't even know if it's a sound or something to see, there's just something there and this very first activity that becomes conscious to me happens in the frontal cauda and the second cauda, I get a feeling and so on, but it is not

[30:18]

all these things that make up the form calendar, there is something, I notice something, look. And I think from this point of view, Roshi said he can develop Buddhism from the difference between thoughts and truthfulness, that is something more than a thought. From this difference he can kick everything out. Consciousness and awareness. And I understand it like this, if this is the case for the spirit, for the activity of the spirit, it is also for my individual perception that it can only be practiced in the Buddhist sense if I am involved in it.

[31:22]

The other thing that interests me in the Buddhist sense, because these are the tools with which I practice, I do not say something ontologically, that really exists objectively, that does not interest me, or can I start something with it, and from this point of view it is necessary to practice it. So what helped me a lot is a different translation for the word form, namely appearance. And this appearance is the father. For you, the father is what? The father, yes. For you it might be a good word, but to me it directly brings to mind that it also has something to do with me, which Ivo has already told me. That's why it seems to me to be more explicit, but you can understand that differently. I don't understand it, but I really understand it as a kind of original perception, which is still very, very much before it can make it equal in any way.

[32:28]

I personally have little practice with form, because the feeling is always with me. I said earlier that I reduced it to three to four, and with me, I have never been able to create form without the feeling. I am always with the feeling. I also think that, as you said, Ivo, also the text, from 1991, I think, when I was studying, that Roshi really said that, in general, when you notice something, same as a label, that you first notice it, we call it form. And there I tried to note it on the pillow. What comes first? When I breathe and feel my breath and my posture, somewhat stable, what comes next, and I found that interesting, I have never done it so consistently, that it really is 10,000 things, so I can't say at all, it is something that appears, there are so many body sensations and sounds, especially body sensations and sounds,

[33:57]

and nothing else, but that's a lot of stuff, and that's what I've defined for myself as a form, and normally in everyday life I can only experience that when I slow down, when I sit in front of a mirror and concentrate, They also come into shape in the head. Or when photographing, for example, when developing photography, these black and white dots come, this feeling, it's like a wow, so much stuff. It's a great picture for me. If you still know it, black and white and really put it in the paper yourself. Suddenly you are, right? This term, Sinhala, was also very rich for me.

[35:02]

to get away from the sense of form a little bit. Because I think the signal is also very good for the other senses, except the sense of sight. So it can be a sound, so you probably mostly connect the signal with a sound, but it can also be a smell or a taste. So I think you can imagine everything quite well as a kind of signal. And then I think it's also such a Such an experience that many of you have, for example, when you stand somewhere and wait for something and you sleep a little while standing and look in front of you and do not even know what you are actually looking at. There you basically look at some form and suddenly it becomes conscious to you and then you are awake again and go back to your business. This is a moment when you are really very close to this form and at the same time very close to the truth. That's an interesting question for me.

[36:16]

I think that's always the case for me. I don't really know the right answer now, but as I understand the whole thing, it is also the case that the senses Until we really perceive something, a lot of processing has already happened. So if I look at something and then, ah, I looked at it all the time, until then a lot of processing has already happened. And to penetrate this process with attention, that's where I order the scandals at the moment. And I notice that in a certain moment I can go through certain things with attention and others not. In the experience it is complex. In the experience I can go through certain aspects. In certain aspects, let's say, the stages including perception and associations are all going through.

[37:22]

While somewhere else something can also be awake, especially through practice, where I just hear. And what I actually wanted to say with that is that I find it especially difficult with form. I would say for myself, I think form itself And it's a quality that really... So where that is, there are just things, almost too much has been said. It's just the fact that not two, that not, so hand and this and that, that can't be on the same place, that can't take the same place. It's like space, that space manifests itself.

[38:25]

That's how I take it, that's more my feeling somehow. the form takes place on a level and if I want to immerse myself in this scanner, that it is then a space warning, a manifestation of space. I don't know if that makes sense now. So emptiness. Yes. Yes, but that's what I want to say. I just got it. Actually, the room is such a prerequisite that something arises, and sometimes I have the feeling that when you look at it from above, as you have just described, because we are now talking about consciousness, then it is there and there, then there is hearing, there is the human being, he has his ear, then the hearing takes place and there it is. But that's not the case, it's just when you look at it like that.

[39:26]

When I sit and the room opens, that is, it opens up through the attention on it, that is the deep. So I think we have all talked about it since we have been practicing the skandhas, it has opened such a door. And I believe that it takes place inside me. It's not that such a phenomenon appears, but I think it's the space. So, of course it appears, but I don't mean outside, but it's one thing, it's such a simultaneity, such a simultaneity, exactly. that it is not always the case that there is the human being, there is the ear, there is the hearing, and there is the sound, with a distance and with the whole sound, this is suddenly like this, and by being there and breathing and first positioning yourself a little and opening up, such a space is created,

[40:38]

Of course, when you realize that you are associated with consciousness, you do not come into this room, you do not come down there yet, and that totally disturbs you when the stories run there, and these are rare moments, well, for me it is very rare, but then it is there, very, very rare. Well, the basic prerequisite, and we already had that this morning, is to notice, to notice in myself, there, only there, to find somewhere, to find a practice with the five khandras. I cannot notice anything out there. If I see the snow out there, then it is already a process that takes place in me. Insofar gibt es dieses draußen auch gar nicht. Das ist vollkommen unrelevant, dass ich sage, aber der Schnee ist trotzdem dort draußen.

[41:43]

Da sind wir wieder bei dieser Frage, wenn niemand diesen Schnee da draußen sieht, ist er da oder ist er nicht da, das ist egal. Aber trotzdem, diesen inneren Raum, den müssen wir erstmal herstellen. Durch Aufmerksamkeit. Und dazu brauchen wir das selten, dazu müssen wir langsam machen. It can simply require that we drive this whole process as far as possible down and slow down first. And then you could also say in the form of noticing that something is appearing. We have heard over and over again in recent years this appearance, existence, passing away, or appearance, living, passing away, or appearance, breeding and then letting go again. That means we have to, I can ask myself the question, what is appearing at all?

[42:46]

And of course, from the theory it is completely confused again, when it says 10,000 things. I can't concentrate on 10,000 things, then security needs to be switched off. Nevertheless, it is so that there is an incredible amount, but I can direct my attention and can ask myself, what is that at all? What is that at all? So this question in Buddhism, what is that? What appears That is the first question that comes to this form. And it is not just matter or something like that. I can also look at the moment when I am sitting here and I touch this pillow, then somehow a touching appears, or something that I notice there appears,

[43:55]

before I give the whole thing a name and first direct the attention to something that appears. Because the only thing that is important to me is the question of space. For me, this term is also very important, because as soon as I have something, I am already in perception, so I am directly informed, and I have the experience, what is this, what I have felt in practice so far, and therefore I would like to use the word for the body. because this first contact between body and room, body and room, and I notice that, for example, I'm sitting here mostly alone, and when I'm sitting here in the sendo, I take a completely different view. That's there, I also take it for granted. I take it for granted that I'm not in this room and I notice that I'm sitting differently. I take that for granted, that's of course due to the perception.

[44:59]

So I notice, oh, yes, because I'm actually in perception, that's why I can't just ask. I think this is a very interesting discussion about space. If I just build a field, the field consists of something, the field is very strong and there are all the things that I can see, They are equal, there is nothing in front of the other or behind the other.

[46:02]

The flags do not belong to objects. When I look at the heating, the interiors are just as important as the heating itself. I can not say that it is heating or that it is not striped. The things are so simultaneous and so They are clear, but they are not defined by me. And that only works if I keep the field that the things don't jump out or I don't attack them, but they are all there at the same time. And then there is a little difference between perception and form, because otherwise perception and form are the same. What do you mean by holding a field? What kind of field? I mean that I put my best possible moment into it, when it's totally shit and the food hasn't arrived yet and I've already crawled up there a hundred thousand times.

[47:15]

And then everything hurts and I can't stand it anymore. Suddenly everything is so metal. like never before. So to speak, this can also happen outside, but this is like a very strong physicality of mine, I feel it, but it is no longer being involved in any way with what It is involved with this feeling of the field, but it is not involved with anything out there, and if it is involved with the space or the field, then I feel totally connected with what is in the field, but it is not a part of what ... it feels like something is jumping at me, but actually I am jumping at something, and then I want to feel it or look at it more closely, and then it has a color or something, it is like a lively, bubbling prey or something, but it is never sorted out,

[48:36]

That's exactly what I wanted to say. That's exactly what I wanted to say. To make the difference between perception and... To find a word that can make a difference. That space manifests itself. Maybe we could... Because I'm thinking about what I can write down. Because where it says to notice that something is appearing, I would now also say that for me a formulation, that fits for me a warning scandal. There are notes that are written, Maybe instead you could write something like a manifester or a room manifesting itself. I don't know, something with a room. I also came across this something and during the practice period Roshi asked me why suddenly these active words came to me.

[49:55]

There is no longer arise, cease and proceed, but it was to bring forth, to hold and to let go or to dissolve. And somewhere I had brought it to me not so much to look at what appears or what happens when I, so to speak, make myself as comfortable as possible and then look what is there, but also how something appears. And that is this, so the picture that has come to me so rarely and is always followed is that it is like a kind of there is a kind of condensation or crystallization, like in bad weather there is moisture everywhere and at some point it is so dense that there is a cloud and then I can see, oh, there is a crack, yes, there is something that is moving away from the room around it a little bit, but which has no clear boundaries, because the moisture is still there,

[51:04]

left and right and down and over, but not so much that I can perceive them at the moment, and not so much that I see them as something, but somehow it is felt from there, the whole air is electrically charged, it is somewhere moist, it is maybe even sticky or so, But somewhere it is crystallized, it is pushed together in such a way that it falls over a threshold. And I simply called that sealing, or crystallization in another way. And it is not yet so... This cloud has a 90 degree angle and it has this round shape. You just notice something and it has totally open edges. That's how it works. And to observe this process, to be there, to see that this magnetism, which then comes out of this thing, oh, I want to know more about it, and then you direct your attention to it, and suddenly it becomes even more important and something else comes out, and then you recognize it.

[52:13]

Yes, this is always close to the world until it is really permeable, this process, which I am very, very, very, very good at. So I think to permeate is a nice word for it. If we say space, then it is a bit irritating. For me, this is a state of mind that notices that something is appearing or that something is becoming concrete, or there it triggers an impulse, triggers something. No, that's not it. The emotional scandal, that's something different than feeling, but it sounds like, as you have just described it, as an introduction to this feeling of a situation, which is also changing, and it can still be the emotional scandal, even if it changes.

[53:28]

No, that's not it. I'll let you try it again. I find it interesting when you say that you can talk to the first or I can not go there, for me it was in the last time, since I have been working so intensively with it, it was actually the easiest thing to read, what do I not get when something hits my mind, something comes up, But before the perception, before the perception, that's what I mean. Yes, something appears. And let's get rid of the other names, perception or something like that. I don't get how something hits me. or from an activity point of view I can say that I am somehow so open, I open up such a wide mind and then I try to understand how something in this open state of mind, where there is actually nothing, where there is simply only a field of the mind, something is released there.

[54:54]

and it can be something solid, it can even be the feeling of my breath, it can be a voice, it can be a sound, it can be anything, but for the first time I get almost like an electric impulse with me and say that something has now appeared in a wide field of mind that I am trying to stop. in the zazen, otherwise I won't be able to do it either. And that, in my opinion, is the form. Then I would like to ask you, you have just told me what you said, I think the only thing that bothers me about the etwas is that if I perceive it as etwas, then I am already far away. I am, that's all I am. That means, as soon as I say something, it's already a bit embarrassing for me. But my experience is, if I say several things, so not just one thing, but the several things that I say in the environment, if there are several things, then I can leave that to the point that I don't...

[56:00]

I can't say what it is, but I can feel it. I can feel something coming up, but as more, as more is with the access. What does that mean? As more, more forms. Oh, many or something. Many forms. Yes, many forms. Yes. And I can easily prevent myself from saying what it is, because there are so many. For example, I sometimes have quick pains, and if I am allowed to be there as pain, then I am just at the point that you just mentioned. If, on the other hand, I try to get out of the pain, then I have to get out of my whole body, so to speak. And of course it is now perceived as a physical form, I don't even know if that works. But if I make it more diverse, then I can perceive it without naming it. It's just that I can perceive it without naming it. Otherwise, I don't understand what you mean. I think that ... Agatha and Peter, or Gregor and ... First ... I would like to add one more word to the form.

[57:23]

In the first remark and in the form, a relationship also plays a role, namely the relationship that I build up to the appearance. Now not in the feeling, but in it is very difficult to describe, that I notice how this appearance appears in the world. That it does not appear as a thing alone, but that it is connected in the form. Everything. And that, I think, is this space of the form, if I understood that correctly. This cloud. Yes, and I think the word for me fits the word relationship. Oh, that's also in the full title. It's also in the full title. It's also in the full title.

[58:27]

It's also in the full title. [...] So I think that's the first three. We need a list. Maybe we need one. We [...] need one. It's what? 4 o'clock. Wow. Do we have a break in 4 o'clock? Yes. That's good. I think that this openness is very important, because for me it really applies to the V-scan.

[59:34]

Such an open state of mind, where everything or nothing can happen, for example a baby that comes to life, that is just there and so much appears, and I can remember that very well, that is the beginning for me, obviously everything, And when I sit down, I can only really describe this experience. Then, for example, I find myself in this hearing field, which is also a room that is not yet filled, and then the bell comes. and I can make them very different, for example, I can say, oh, how does it feel today, or that would be the consciousness or the association, or I can simply take it as a spectrum of sound that spreads in the course of time in this room, and then the steps come, but then I don't know if the steps, oh, these are steps, right,

[60:58]

And this state, and then something appears, or a lot of impressions appear, it can be a carpet, and when I know something, of course, then it is clear, then I grab it, and then it is a clear warning, watch out, then I don't have to think about anything, that's it, that's it. May I also come to the conclusion? Yes, also before the question. What I noticed is that we try to talk about a scandal, an experience, a space, as you described it, we try to describe it from consciousness, from thinking. Then, I think, it feels very complicated. and let the brain sink a little bit, then I think it is a very simple first experience.

[62:07]

They did it on the spot. Before you say something. I think that makes it so difficult. We try to talk about something that we all actually experience. but when we express it, we don't know it, something appears and that's complex, but it's a very, yes, this experience or this astonishment, so I have that as an example. The astonishment is bad, that's exactly what I mean. I experience it more when I travel somewhere where I have never been before and then you can no longer then you can no longer perceive anything, or you don't know that there is a street behind the corner, that there is the post office in your village where you grew up, you don't know anything, and suddenly you are in this form and you notice that you are disorganized, but that brings this form back to you, that you are simply with what is there,

[63:16]

And this astonishment, this listening to music, experiencing the world as music, And I found that on a trip. Yes, but this surprise, this being surprised and this openness to all that appears. If you practice this, then this evening the Zazen can also become a place where you have never been before and you are surprised by what appears. Even if it is the same author a thousand times, who passes by every evening at 7.30 or in the morning at 8 o'clock, it can be just as surprising as the noise where I now say this author and this and that. We try to describe something to you with words, which is in a state that is still before the words. Because it is really just, it is that,

[64:18]

It can go so fast, but in this show it can also be that it is just an open field and over a long time there are no noises in the show, there is still something out there and then something appears in a much slower sequence and that is something surprising. And the experience of being in the deep samadhi is also a form of experience, where the thinking completely enters the background. We are now in the deep samadhi, there is a bit of your cake-eating, that's where I'm going now.

[65:03]

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