Even though I've asked you to look at three koans, each koan is meant to be taken as if it were the only koan. Typically a koan is a dialogue of two people. And the dialogue turns on life-changing questions for each of the participants, at least one of them. And this dialogue is about life-changing questions for each participant in the dialogue, at least for one participant. So the attitude to a con is to take it as a potentially life-changing situation for you.

[01:01]

And that doesn't mean you have to turn the koan into some kind of big deal. But you have to take your own life as if it's always in the midst of a life-changing situation. Or a life-discovering situation, or something like that. And so in that kind of context, we ask the question, what is Buddhism, or what is the meaning, etc. ? Or what is its practical meaning for us? And since you're all here, you must have some idea about this. So I await the hearing of some of your ideas. So my first question is who will be second?

[02:18]

How? That's from an American Indian movie. How? My approach, when I hear the question, what is the great meaning of Buddhism, is that I actually dismantle the question into partial questions that are in resonance with my experience. Neil, your chance, please. My approach is when I'm faced with such a question, I take it into parts and the parts which are experience related to my own experience.

[03:20]

And I have such a question, what is the great meaning of Buddhism? Then I ask myself, what is Buddhism? And what is meaning? And what is meaning when it's about the meaning of Buddhism? And how is meaning different when it's about meaning for my life or in my life? And meaning for what at all? And why should anything have any meaning at all? Yes, and I just notice that breaking it down into sub-questions, that helps me, that I can put these individual questions into relationships with my experiences. And this breaking down into these single or smaller parts, I can relate to my life, my experience.

[04:29]

And also bring in the details of my life, or also breed out there. and bring in the details of my life and put them into there. No answers, but even more questions. Okay. Good. You're the disciple. You mean she does what I do? It sounds similar. Oh, really? The approach. She's been hanging around since she was 12. I mean 18. Anyone else? Someone else? Was that a hand from you? How surprising. This is meaningful. This is meaningful. Now is meaningful.

[05:34]

And now is meaningful because it is exactly the way that it is here now. It would be differently meaningful if none of you were here and I just speak into an empty space. I know it would be also different if I was speaking to 30 people who were here differently and different people even. People who are... Fertilizer. Cow fertilizer. Talking about cow fertilizer. Different people.

[06:38]

Something different. This doesn't sound like... A nice way to describe other people. No, let's go deeper into this. And it's also meaningful because the reason of why we sit here, that provides it with meaning or that gives meaning to it. And how we sit here. And what's meaningful about Buddhism to me is that it allowed me to experience that and to feel that. I can feel the meaningfulness of this situation and also live that. And I can include you all in that and it's that way because you're here it's also that way although you were here and in earlier times it would not have been this way.

[08:05]

And this kind of meaning is in each moment. So in the moment when I no longer see meaning as something that I have to achieve and that is then important at some point, but as an activity, as a dynamic of the situation. in each moment when I don't see meaning as something that's external and that I need to achieve, something big that I need to move towards or something, but something that's an activity in this very moment. By participating in the meaningfulness of this moment. And also participate in a way that includes you, which is not just making a big show out of this, but also including you in this particular moment. You meaning everyone? Yeah. And in the sense that that works, it works in each moment.

[09:27]

It feels differently in each situation, like at Edeka or on the Autobahn. But it's always there. Okay, it sounds like you were at the center of what you're saying. If you're equating the way things are at each moment with meaning. But the way things are at each moment is just the way things are at each moment. Why do you say that that has meaning? But the way things exist in every moment, that's just the way things exist in every moment. Why do you call that meaningful or why do you put it with meaning? In German, the meaning is in the meaning.

[10:28]

In German, in the word Bedeutung, meaning, there's part of the word is to point to or to interpret also. So there's always an encounter. A meeting. Or a meeting, yeah. So there's always an encounter. Or a meeting, yeah. And meaning is always the relational network of the situation. The way you relate to a situation is meaningful. Okay. In other words, what the word means in German is that the way things are at each moment is also inevitably an engagement, and that engagement has meaning.

[11:33]

Okay, you defended yourself quite well. Very good answer. I also think that what you implied in what you said was the discovery of things as they are and not in the way you gave meaning to things before, and hence the way things are takes away previous meanings and that in itself has meaning. Well, that's what I heard you say. You defend it. I defended you very well. Someone else?

[13:00]

Yes. I would like to try to reflect some of the basic points that we discussed in our English speaking group. In German or English? In German. We could not really... familiarize ourselves with the question of the great meaning of Buddhism it was we moved more towards the question of what is Buddhist practice and how does that work in our lives how does it function in our life and

[14:25]

And then the question was that we notice that we do practice, but then sometimes we don't exactly know whether this is Buddhist practice now or what exactly it is. And some reported about experiences from childhood and that they noticed that things around them, certain things around them, did not exist at all. And some people described experiences they had in childhood where they said that they noticed that some things around them wouldn't really speak to them, that they didn't have meaning.

[15:45]

And then different questions arose, like, what does that mean? What is meaning? And that it's important just to ask questions, why do I do this? And that it's important just to ask questions, why do I do this? And, yeah, why do I do this? Although you can't necessarily find an answer. And that I sometimes, as a observer or visitor of my life, ask myself questions, And that sometimes I'm more like a visitor or an observer in my life and ask myself the question, yeah, why do I do this now? Practicing together, just sitting with others, practicing together, I don't want to say that this is actually the answer, but that this is more the context of how things open up.

[16:53]

And that more than finding an answer to the question, it's more about just asking the question and practicing with each other, practicing together, just sitting and sitting together. And I don't want to say that this is the answer, but that's much more... Was hast du gesagt, worum es dabei geht? Dass es sich mehr erschließt. Okay, but that's how... It opens up. That's how it opens up easier. The question opens up easier. So just sitting together or just living together in itself is a meaning. Yes. So just sitting together or living together together, that itself has meaning. That's true. I hope that's true. Also in comparison, Neil said that he was asked, what did you say, tell me something about Buddhism. Neil said that he was asked, tell me something about Buddhism.

[18:03]

And he said, well, what do you say to such a question? Where is the entry? My little nieces, I couldn't say what. I didn't know where to start. Like this. Talk about it. Maybe you can A good answer to such a question is don't hurt anything. Were you going to say something? I can.

[19:12]

Well, no, it's not about you. No, I felt good about what Annetta said. We also worked with meaning in terms of value. Because meaning sometimes is equated in relationship to something else. It can tend to be conceptual. And the feeling of value is things have a value often just intrinsically in their own right. And the sense of value can be more personally impactful than objectively understandable.

[20:13]

So much of the conversation was about how people experience the great value of practice better than a great meaning. Okay. Yes. To add to what Frank said, the answer to the question of the great meaning of Buddhism led into two different directions, and the one direction was just saying that there is no answer to that question. Or to say that there is not the great meaning but that there are myriads of situational meanings of Buddhism.

[21:49]

And then the introduction with Devadatta also led to a discussion. And then the introduction with Devadatta also led to a discussion. And then the introduction with Devadatta also led to a discussion. Meaning that through Devadatta the evil that he symbolizes is not just out there in the world, but it's also within us. And on the one hand that is not a refuge. There's no refuge, as you said, in the world. But there is the refuge to Buddha, Dharma and Sangha as a kind of activity and not as a place to rest or as a shelter.

[23:15]

Okay. You know, as some philosophers said, this is to call thought back to what unsettles us. And the opening of this koan is meant to unsettle us. And to call our own thinking back to what we can't resolve and what disturbs us. So then if you recognize that, then you ask yourself, why is this koan asking its participants, the reader, to call their thought back to what unsettles them.

[24:36]

Okay. Someone else. Yes. I want to add to Nicole who was in our group. Someone else said he does not cut the question into small pieces. But he would just sit with that question and observe what gathers around the question.

[25:37]

And to use it as a kind of pool where things gather. Without expecting necessarily an answer to come up. And then a different way of answering such a question was to say that it's hard to think about this question in some kind of general sense, what is the great meaning of Buddhism? But then it always means more something like, what does it mean to me? What does it mean for me? Okay. Dieter? In our group we tried to shed some light on the word meaning.

[27:09]

And one connotation of meaning is that you put something that's in the foreground of mind, you put that into relation with something that's in the background of mind, some kind of world view or something. and that many Buddhist practices are designed to put a question mark right at that point. So that you don't take your worldview as something that's given, but more as something that's being questioned through the foreground of mind, through whatever appears in the sun. so that you also have attention on the relationship.

[28:32]

And that enables one to build up new relationships. that are much more penetrated with awareness and consciousness. And we had different examples for that. And towards the end of our talking together we talked about meeting with people who are dying or being together with someone who's dying.

[29:46]

And we spoke about the solution of the term meaning in this being together. Because there's much more feeling of stepping out of everything that has been in the past and out of planning or something. But it's much more about just focusing on the present situation. Okay, thanks. Yes, Otmar? What was also mentioned in our group and what my view on such a question is, What we also spoke about in our group and that's also my way of approach or of dealing with such a question.

[30:56]

It's only one of many questions but it doesn't really matter what question I look at in this context. Am I willing to look at the question so that I can ask the question on some kind of neutral? So that you don't get into entanglements that I ask the question in such a way? Or do I really pose that question into my life? And maybe that also has something to do with the answer in the sense that the answer can have as much meaning in one's life as the question how much is the rice somewhere.

[32:12]

Or to bring the question into my life and also to have the courage to do that. Because I might not like the answer or maybe I intimate that there's an answer that I don't like much. And I think in this Quran it is also about how I am ready to put such a question into my practice, into my life and to accept the answers and then also to live or try to live it. And I think this poem is also about that. How am I willing to bring such a question into my life and also to accept the answers that appear there? And to what extent am I willing to then enact these answers and to live that way? Yeah, thanks. Oh.

[33:36]

You're right there in the column, and my eyes are, the windows are so bright there. But hi, yeah. The question of the great importance of Buddhism is for me, one of these answers is also that this question allows that there is meaning. It enables meaning. With this question, the great meaning of Buddhism, one of the answers for me is also that it allows for meaning, that it gives space... Before this question, it allows for meaning, It allows for me to acknowledge meaning and a kind of meaning that for me as a human being makes a difference in the world.

[34:51]

And if I then put myself into this tradition that's called Buddhism What then suddenly appears is that ever since 2600 years, and probably for a much longer time even before that, that human beings have asked themselves this kind of question, or maybe exactly this question. And then I can call it Buddhism or not, it's just a container that allows me to be in the field of meaning. And I experience it as a kind of gravity or maybe more like a polarization.

[36:07]

It's nothing for a compass. And I have no... And then the question of choice no longer arises when I take this step into meaning. And then I don't have the question about the choice when I've stepped into that question, whether I like it or not. It's just north. And north is north. And then it's comfortable or not comfortable. It's that way. And it allows me to live in my responsibility, whatever that may be. Okay. So then we have the question, if we describe Buddhism as a field of meaning we can enter, why call it Buddhism?

[37:09]

then why do we call it Buddhism? Or is there any difference if we call it Buddhism? What does it mean to call it Buddhism? Does that alter the field of meaning or deepen the field of meaning? Or is it irrelevant to call it Buddhism? I'm not saying we should answer that now, but I think that's a real question. Yes, I got that. Do you mean you have my Mark? For me the question of what is the great meaning of Buddhism also has to do with what is my marrow.

[38:20]

My inner. In a morse. It doesn't say marrow in the sense. Oh, because the marrow refers to a famous story. Also, das sollte Mark heißen. Das müsst ihr ändern. Das bezieht sich auf berühmte Geschichte. Und irgendwie ist diese Suche nach dem Innersten, wo ich dann auf nichts treffe, oder wo ich auf eine ständige Veränderung treffe, Somehow this search for the innermost, where I constantly meet nothing or some kind of constant change, there it doesn't matter much whether I call it Buddhism or not. There I just don't have the word Buddhism yet. It happens anyway ever since I was a child. And then Buddhism has more a kind of historical or social context in the sense that there were people who've done the same thing.

[39:56]

And things that I practice through being together with the teacher and the singer, that somehow get a word, like a lamp that then shines on it, And things that through being together with the Sangha and with the teacher things that become a word like a kind of flashlight that I can shed light on through this being together. the experiences and insights that I make with Buddhism, whether they also lead to other people being together as it really is,

[40:56]

And for me the test for Buddhism is also to see if the experiences I discover through, or maybe the insights to that I discover through Buddhism, whether they also lead in being together with other people to be with them in a way that's more as it actually is. And to communicate about that with people who don't necessarily call themselves Buddhists. Yeah. Yeah. So, if we think of Buddhism as... a truth we discover for ourselves, a kind of inner truth and a truth of relationship. And then we... Excuse me, what did you say?

[42:02]

You said something about relationships, too. an inner truth we discover for ourselves and in relationships within ourselves. And perhaps we confirm those truths if we feel confirmed in those truths if they also seem to be truths within Buddhism. But the question I would ask, if we do, each of us, say, on our own, come to some process from childhood on of a discovery of what to us is true,

[43:07]

One question, of course, is, is that process helped by Buddhism? But let's put the help of Buddhism aside. And imagine you have the capacity and experiences that pretty fully allow you to find for yourself what you'd call truth. Then the question is, Can you share that with others? Or is Buddhism a way to teach that in a way that it develops in others?

[44:13]

Again, I'm not saying that's your question. I'm just saying that's a basic question that leads to what we're doing. And that's implied in the choice of the protagonist for this koan. Okay. Someone else? Yes. For me it's as though there are two different layers maybe, one layer that shows itself in a conceptual way and one that shows itself more in a being way. And I'm a little confused because they don't fit.

[45:32]

The conceptual thing is that the meaning of Buddhism for me is that it helps me to dissolve meanings. Well, a conceptual layer says something like that the meaning of Buddhism for me is to dissolve meaning. And it seems to me very often that I have a thought about something, about a face, about a mood. So that happens to me quite often that I have a thought when I see a face or just whatever that I see that thought, I become aware of that thought and then I know that also the opposite is true. And that allows me to have some distance with things.

[46:38]

Actually a kind of funny, sometimes scary distance. But at the same time somehow I still feel closer to things. That's the meaning. Yeah, it's good what you say. I would like to speak from my direct experience. That is, since I have been here with Oshi and the Sangha and have been reading about Buddhism, I have understood the four truths as the meaning of Buddhism.

[47:44]

Ever since I'm here with the Sangha and with Roshi and ever since I began to read about Buddhism, the four truths of Buddhism have turned or have opened up to me as the meaning of Buddhism. So what I did is when somebody asked me the question, what is Buddhism, what I then said is that life is suffering. Of course, I failed with that. You failed? Oh, yeah. People don't like that. No, nobody likes that. Yeah. And that would be understandable, but it's even more difficult to explain something like that to someone who's young.

[49:00]

But for me it's the solution on the one hand, and also the challenge to get closer to things on the other. But for me, that's the resolution or the solution on the one hand, and on the other hand, also the challenge to approach things or approximate things ever more closely. Okay. May I say something else? Of course. One thing I also mentioned in the group is that two main points in Buddhism that for me have essential meaning are compassion and wisdom. And for me, in that, the great meaning of Buddhism lies.

[50:11]

Okay. Yeah, and then we have the question in relationship to what you said that's in the koan. What does it mean to say, I don't even practice the Four Noble Truths? So that's unsettling. Someone else. Yes? I just began to think that meaning is something that I feel in ordinary life. On the one hand I have the experience of something like swimming against the current with my Buddhist view.

[51:33]

For example, space connects and it doesn't separate. And simultaneously to feel that I am not the only person who experiences this. No, who finds it right. Okay, who finds it right. Sorry, did you say that you are not the only person? That I am not the only one who thinks the right thing. And to swim against this current, that's not like to be against it in some kind of political revolutionary sense. Oh, that's good. Like in former times. Oh, yeah.

[52:41]

A calmed down revolutionary. But this simultaneity of against and together with. Yeah. Can you hear okay, Paul? Is it okay? Yes? I'll say it in German first. Since so many years I can ask myself a question, what is special about Buddhism? I often have difficulties. When I met Roger 20 years ago, I actually forgot whether he was a Buddhist or not. At first he explained things to me that I sometimes did not understand at all or where I thought, Yes, exactly, that's exactly how I felt. And today it often happens to me that I don't even think about it, is Osho now a Zen Buddhist, is he now teaching Zen Buddhism, but I'm always surprised by the way he explains things.

[53:55]

that I can integrate into my everyday life, that is, a new perspective, to see things and to practice them. And I often forget whether there is a religion behind it, whether there is a philosophy behind it, but I try to say it like a sponge and, as far as possible, as far as I can, to integrate it into my everyday life. So even after so many years, I have difficulties with such a question of what is special or what is the sign of Buddhism, what is particular about Buddhism. And one thing I notice is that that I often have the question of I don't even really know, Roshi, what you are. Are you a Zen Buddhist or are you Buddhist in particular? What I notice is that you explain things in a way that sometimes I don't understand at all. But on the other hand that create this feeling of

[55:02]

Wow, that's exactly how I experience things. That's exactly, that's a good way to describe what I experience. And even after so many years, I... So what I try is to integrate that in my everyday life. And oftentimes I just forget whether this is now Buddhism or not Buddhism. Good. Okay, we should, you know, probably, I love listening to you. It's my deep pleasure. I guess we're supposed to follow a schedule, too. But Evo, I can't resist. I just listened to Iris and with her example where she said that space separates and the Buddhist view is that space connects.

[56:15]

So that's on one level. And for me, what extremely appeals to me is when everyone here would say that space connects. And what really speaks to me is that everybody, if everybody here was going to say space connects. What then would be deeply Buddhist to me would be the effect of the sentence space separates. This feeling of liberation or being awake.

[57:27]

In other words, it has to be contrary. if the prevailing view is one thing. No, that's not what he said. What he said is if the opposite creates that kind of effect. Okay, yeah. Well, I mean, you're in good company. Because the sixth patriarch just before he died called in his disciples and said the secret of teaching is always tell them the opposite. You're the seventh patriarch here. I think behind a question, the context of a question like, what is the price of rice?

[58:59]

It's in the context of questioning as a process more fundamental than answers. And what I get listening to you all is a feeling that you really do have that feeling. And you all, in very similar ways, have got the feeling of how one fruitfully uses questions. And allow the question itself to speak for itself. And in the most fundamental sense, or I mean, fundamental maybe, most basic sense, the question, what is the price of rice? is rooted in the simple question, what is it?

[60:16]

Okay, so the two basic attitudes of Buddhism is to see everything as appearance, to know, experience everything as appearance, And then to accept that appearance and simultaneously to question that appearance. So then the practice is on each appearance you're saying to yourself you have the attitude of what is it? sagst du zu dir selbst, oder du hast diese Haltung der Frage, was ist das? And then we have the question is, does saying what is it? Und dann haben wir die Frage, ist diese Frage, was ist das?

[61:19]

Before there's associations and naming. Und bevor es Assoziationen und Benennungen gibt. If it's before associations and naming. Wenn es nämlich vor Assoziationen und Benennungen liegt. And you're in some sort of territory of raw experience. And then you've taken away meaning. Then what happens when you add meaning, like what is the price of rice? And have you really added meaning? Okay, now I should... Christian said something about the North Star or something, didn't you? What, Northern? Northern. Okay. Suzuki Rashi said an interesting thing.

[62:20]

In speaking about the Lotus Sutra, he said we should read scriptures with our body. Sutras, koans, he would include. But he took that in an unexpected way. He said... to read a sutra to find a way to express what he said to read a sutra with your scripture with your teaching with your body means to assume it's true

[63:25]

We're calling it a sutra or a scripture or something because we're relating to it as if it were true. And to know it through your body and to know it through your body Dogen, Sukhiroshi took that not to mean some kind of embodiment, but rather, if it's true, it must be true the way everything is true. And if it's true the way everything is true, with the body in effect you read the truth of everything. You find when you look at a mountain or feel or present to a mountain, you feel the truth of the mountain.

[64:46]

Yeah. So with every encounter, you're finding the truth of every encounter. And they're letting the truth of every encounter inform the truth of the Scripture. And one of the basic ideas in Chinese Buddhist culture and Chinese culture in general is that the truth is... Symbolically, perhaps, represented by the North Star. Or by the Big Dipper. And there's an assumption within Buddhism and within Chinese culture that

[65:51]

that everything is interrelated, as I keep saying, and it's obvious, and within that interrelatedness, what was extraordinary for the Chinese and for much of the world in thinking about it, Was da jetzt ganz außergewöhnlich bei den Chinesen war, das war besonders für die ganze Welt, wenn man darüber so nachgedacht hat. Is within this fluctuating situation, the North Star is always North. Why is that, if everything is changing? Da ist der Polarstern, der Nordstern, der steht ja immer am Norden, der zeigt immer den Norden an. So then the North Star became related to a symbol of the emperor. Und so wurde der Polarstern eben ein Symbol für den Kaiser.

[67:25]

I mean, in a somewhat similar or parallel way to the Western view of the king as the divine king. The only person in the West who says that now is the Pope. The Pope is somehow also has two bodies and the King was said to have two bodies. One body which was the usual everyday person. And one body which represented divinity. So you have the controversial teaching of the infallibility of the Pope. So in China they didn't have exactly the same idea.

[68:30]

But somehow the emperor was aligned with the truth of the pole star. It's funny to hear the word Kaiser. Oh, is that funny? Well, because for you it represents the emperor, and to us, to me, it's our neighbors. It's funny to hear the word emperor, because it might mean the emperor for you, but for me it's just our neighbors. Yeah, I mean, I know. She did our ironing. She always ironed and ironed for us. Remember, that was a good decision of yours, Gerald, to have Mrs. Kaiser still do the ironing and stuff here in Mondry, right? Yeah, she said, they look nice, but they're weird. Or vice versa. Okay. So you have this statement, as you know, heaven and earth and I share the same root.

[70:04]

Married things and I share the same body. And that's implied in Sukhiroshi's Pay attention to the spine or to the body and the activity of the breath. The body of the breath. So no one's ever told me this. But I'm quite sure that this pine needle stitch represents a constellation or represents the pole star. And it's concealed as a pine needle stitch. And you put it at the top of your spine. So somehow there's some truth in this northing of the spine.

[71:16]

Now I should also familiarize you with I have a rabbit. And a hat. With Ching Yuan. You may have all read this. This is from... The book of somebody I know about Chinese ancestors. Andy Ferguson. Andy Ferguson, yeah. I forgot his name. It's quite a good book. You've all read it then, so I don't have to tell you about it? You've all done it? Twice?

[72:16]

Can anybody else do it? I can fold my... Oh, no, please read it. Read it anyway. We've got to do something. I've got to do something? We've got to do something. We're through. We're over time. Okay. He was an eminent student of the sixth patriarch, sixth ancestor. That's a decision we made very early on in Zen Center, not to say patriarch, to say ancestor. It translates it that way. And he's one of the two main ancestors of the five major schools of Buddhism. And he's the ancestor of the Dung Shan Soto school. And it's his disciple, Shido Shichan, who wrote the Sando Kai, in which they chant in Vien, religiously, regularly.

[73:48]

It was nice to chant it, some kind of nice rhythm. So they repeat the story in this thing about how do you practice the... I don't even practice the Four Noble Truths. But they go on... Anyway, near the end it says after he'd passed away Dharma transmission went to Shido and then he went in and said goodbye to the congregation. Then sitting cross-legged, he passed away.

[75:00]

Now, I mean, it's probably useful to recognize sitting cross-legged, he passed away. It means he committed suicide. Of course, suicide in English means self-killing. But he killed that a long time ago, or at least did something about it. But he got rid of the usual idea of self a long time ago. So we can say it was a body side. But, I mean, you know, he's close to dying and so he just slows his heart down and perishes. So it's not really a suicide.

[76:10]

But we can call it an intentional death. As I said in Rostenberg, the intentional death, the willing and intentional death is considered the good death. And then his stupa was called Return to Truth. His stupa? His stupa. Oh, his stupa. Okay. And then his stupa was called Return to Truth. Yeah, so I bring that up only to point out that these first koans in the Shoyuroku are about a start with our most earliest ancestors in the lineage.

[77:17]

Yeah, and this one particularly represents transmission. So with him as the protagonist in the koan, the koan is also about what is transmission in the world in the midst of this unsettling world. Okay. I'm a little early. It's one minute. Anyway, thank you very much. Thank you for translating.

[78:19]

Hope you feel better. You smile like you might.

[78:25]

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