So we have this morning and this afternoon. Wait, it's not quite discussed. I don't know, sorry. Christina, you want to end it some other time? No. If a few people stay around until nine, it's all right. Nine tomorrow. Nine? Nine. Yeah, tomorrow morning. I'd like to start at half past nine. Oh, OK. Four. But some people already think it's a little too much, so... No. No? OK. LAUGHTER LAUGHTER It doesn't matter. It's a little too much or a little more too much. Okay, so I think that's a good idea.

[01:15]

We have lunch a little late and end that, and the people who have to leave can eat on the road, if necessary. So she has the feeling that they made an arrangement at 4 o'clock, so... Okay, then I'm happy to stay here so far. I'm not going anywhere else. These rituals are important. Oh, it's not necessary to say four people are leaving so we have to end at one o'clock because they are leaving. We should say we are stopping at one o'clock anyway next time. because my calendar, it is written in the afternoon, so I only want to say it.

[02:31]

Let me speak from my point of view. It's actually rather difficult for me to continue when more than two or three people leave. I feel such a disturbance in, dare I use the word, constellation, that it's sometimes hard to continue. But in any case, we only start after lunch at 3.30 or something. So we'd only have half an hour between 3.30 and 4.00.

[03:37]

So we'll add that half an hour to the morning and So normally we stop at 12.30, so if we stopped at 1 or even 1.30, 1.30, okay. And then Peter eats slowly anyway, so... So when he starts lunch at 12, he's not through till 2, so... Okay. And I'll try to squeeze an afternoon's amount of information into the morning. Which would probably mean we'd have to sit silently the whole morning.

[04:38]

And have an osmotic transference. Oh, that's a good idea. I'll end tomorrow with I wish we had time. Because the secret teachings I've decided to reveal, but we don't have time. That's how secret teachings are always revealed. So there's some things in my mind that would be useful to do before we end.

[06:04]

And one of those things is to look at the most famous koan concerning karma. But before, I mean, I think it might be useful for you to have a picture of it. But before we do that, I'd like to see if there's anything anyone wants to speak about. In particular from your discussion yesterday. I generally would like to hear what happened in the discussion. You start with your group.

[07:14]

I can't talk about it because I barely understood what was going on in your group. You barely understood what was going on in your group? What are you doing here? Perhaps I have to learn to get used to non-understanding. Well, who from this obstinate group... in this bunch of wine bags, is going to speak. I can start.

[08:20]

Yes, thank you. At least one warrior. So we're going to start by looking at the situation, where is Sarah here? She's in the room. [...] Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. working with the alza. Regarding your aspects of production, they use that for defining purpose.

[09:39]

Thank you. I mean, not responding specifically to what you said. Let me just say that karma is an evolving idea. It was... I looked up some dates, and it was really... an idea that was still developing at the time of Buddha.

[10:44]

And there are literally hundreds of schools. There was something like 367 schools just in the Jain area. And there were within Buddhism and prior to Buddhism there were all these different schools. And some thought the world was just the will of God. And some thought it was fate. And some thought there were just elements, for instance, that were unchangeable. And so if you stabbed somebody with a knife, it just went between the permanent elements and didn't really have a karmic effect.

[11:49]

This is like Descartes thinking he could experiment with dogs because he didn't feel pain. Only humans could experience pain. He must not have been a dog lover. Anyway, there were all these different schools. And then there were the brahmanas, the brahmanicals. And there were the shamanas, the seekers. The Shramanis? Yeah, the seekers, you say. The Brahmins were the seekers. No, the Brahmins is other school. The Shramanas, I think it's called. Are the seekers. And they, many of those, practice meditation. And the ones who practiced meditation really, it wasn't a theory.

[13:08]

They could see it affecting themselves. If you have any kind of developed meditation, Any kind of somatic states. Or signless or formless minds. It's readily apparent that any confliction or ambiguity, you can't have those states of mind. So it's very quickly seen that if you do something you don't feel good about or you're conflicted about something, your meditation is not very good. So within the Buddhist meditation schools, they really developed this idea very clearly that it's the moral and intentional actions which disturb your zazen, disturb your meditators.

[14:19]

Moral or? It wasn't so much about right and wrong. It's about what interfered with concentrated states of mind. So then a theory developed of how that affected you. But the point I'm making only, and I didn't mean to go into such length, was at the time of the Buddha, the idea of karma and rebirth was being thought about a lot.

[15:23]

And the Upanishads, where it first occurs, are actually pretty much simultaneous with the Buddha. I said yesterday that it was maybe 100 to 200 years earlier, but it's virtually simultaneous. The Vedas came in when the Aryans came into India. And that is around 1500 or 1200 B.C. But the Dravidians before that in Mohenjo-daro, I think 3000 B.C. or something, there was still the famous image of a Buddha statue, of at least a figure sitting cross-legged who looks like a meditation figure.

[16:28]

So it seems that the Dravidian view of religion affected the Vedas, and then the most sophisticated version came along with the Upanishads at the same time as the Buddha. The early Vedas are from 1500 to 500. This was a time of political, economic and religious ferment. And anyway, again, I'm just emphasizing that the idea of karma was not some sort of fixed idea.

[17:29]

Some people thought it was just deterministic kind of God. But all these people were developing the idea. Well, I don't know how many schools of psychology there are now in the West. Maybe 367. It was yesterday. Today we just started a new one. Okay, so, and karma, the idea of karma developed through the ideas of, through the practices of meditation.

[18:42]

I mean, the idea doesn't exist at some point, then it develops and then it gets kind of stabilized. Okay, so right now, when you work with clients and constellations, you're seeing karma at work. So you, right now, can develop the idea of karma. I can give you my understanding of karma. And what happens when you understand it as linked to practice? Okay. So you may look at karma as it's understood in therapeutic practice.

[19:44]

To what degree is it only intentional? I think that we can think of this as a working group, not just me telling you something about Buddhist karma. See, Angela, what you inspire? Thank you. So the next group. Why was one group twice the size of the other two groups? Okay, anyway, go ahead.

[20:45]

So what was the other group? Yes, Christa? She wants to add something. Yes, please. Because everybody just remembers certain pieces. Of course. There was this point about this all-at-onceness, that there's some kind of a multitude kind of opening, which is kind of cut into pieces if you do some precise actions. That's something we just mentioned, but we couldn't dissolve that. We couldn't handle this. Another important point was...

[21:46]

That's something from the viewpoint of totality or totalitarian. that those who experience with practice in the therapy that kind of shows that they emphasis those points which are like resources of who the client has so they look at what they can feel in the client but which can be developed so he is carrying the resources Potentiality. Then they ask the question, where is actually the difference between the client and the therapeutic? And that it's also about, not judgment, but dissolving, giving value to this.

[23:10]

To both. Yeah. The question if the suffering, if that is always only part of the dualistic thing which always contradicts itself. Is that God? Is that God? caused by a duality which exists and that this duality constantly reestablishes itself and that causes this suffering or psychic and bodily suffering? The Buddhist view, the late Buddhist view is that karma is carried primarily through creating dualisms.

[24:20]

My feeling is that, and the group who discussed it, is that there isn't a similar precision I mean, in other words, I have a certain metabolism. And it works relatively precisely. I'm quite happy with it. And you each have a separate metabolism. And yet, if we're here in this group, And they've measured this in Sashin. Just people meditating, not in a big thing like Sashin.

[25:24]

And I think all I've seen is studies up to 12 or 13 people. Fairly quickly their heartbeat metabolism get in sync. So if you look at a constellation, something very precise happens at some point. Like Matthias says, you step back and you step forward in your different state of mind. Again, this extraordinary work with twins, where twins separated at birth, choose, name their dog the same thing, and they flush the toilet the same way, and so forth. I should think that one of the gifts of a good therapist with a variety of people

[26:29]

and not just with their twin, they're able to establish after a certain length of time a very precise connection. At least that's true in Zen practice. And once that's established, you don't need obvious contact anymore. And that's part of getting ready for your teacher to die. So if he's gone a week or two, that's okay. If it stretches into years, that's okay. Oh, he's dead. Okay, so... Did anything happen in the other street group?

[27:51]

We first had the question from you, how can I create radical reality in different contexts, for example in countries, and we quickly came to the conclusion that we first have to look at ourselves in such a state, i.e. to look at ourselves from a possible non-dual state in contact with the other, that he has something or that he can learn something in this field. You want to cut? I think she's so good at it. Okay. Okay. We started with the question what radical reality means with the contact with our clients and very soon we saw that firstly we as therapists must remark and feel

[29:11]

Generate that yourself. And I am not duality now, and in this field I can hope or or I can give it to my connection with clients. And then we thought, what marks we see or feel on our body and our mind that we Yes, remarks. I am in a state of non-duality or duality. To concentrate on my own body and then to the connection. And then we have spoken about the fact that in different... In different connections, it's easier to feel non-equality with our clients in connections where I'm not so...

[30:26]

early to us as in connection with our family or our husband and so on. We have spoken about a day before this, you had the factors of how can I bring me in a Instead of not suffering, we have worked with examples what we can use for our contact with our clients or husband and so on to count enough. And so not duality. Okay. Also, we have, also, we have, so we have, so we have, in a chair in the school, so I was like, oh, they are here, and it's like, what happened?

[31:45]

And more or less, we were just like, yeah, and then I said, this must be a different partner that we don't see around us. And it was like this with all our children, and it's more easy to be in a logistic state than if you see it as therapy. So I did tests, and I just expected, what? Yeah, can I comment briefly? I think that the, you see a client for what, if you're one-to-one, what, one hour or 40 minutes or something like that? Two hours? Okay, but there's some nights... You should do Zen. Three minutes is for me, five minutes maybe.

[32:49]

Doksan. But if there is a prescribed length of time, there's a ritual aspect to that. And things happen during that time. It's a very something. It's a ritual. And so I think we can't do that kind of ritual with our friends usually except under special occasions they're leaving the next day or something. But I think we can My experience is you can learn something from those kind of situations that actually can be implicit in other situations with your spouse. And I myself would advise at least not to think too mechanically about being in a non-dual state of mind.

[34:06]

First of all, I think it's very important to have a feeling of I'm in a non-dual state of mind, but I'm moving toward or being more close to a non-dual feeling. Okay. And then I wouldn't think too much about extending it to someone else. You mean you strengthen it in yourself? And then you assume maybe it's affecting the other person. But you really just concentrate on yourself and you see what happens. And since it's always good to start from where you're at, If you're in a completely lousy state of mind, even being in a non-dual state would be better than the state you're in.

[35:26]

You still just come into that state completely. And then you also let the situation, the other person primarily, be part of what's happening. Even including another person in a lousy state of mind is actually a kind of move toward non-duality. I mean, you have to take my advice practically, but something like that, I feel. Someone else from that group? What should we do? I'd be happy to answer your explanation, because I only ask the question whether it is possible to prove something between non-worldly and worldly if we are any longer so pragmatic.

[36:56]

If you use it in a pragmatic way to change, it can't be non-luality. And I spent a lot of time after that group, once walking and to look for situations how we could explain or how it would feel to be in a non-luality dualistic situation. Yeah. I remember my poetry teacher, Maria Rippius, she did just a lot of things when we came to the schule, to the therapy, just to produce an atmosphere. She wrote this fire and these flowers and some nice words, and so to produce something that was close to not worth it. Okay, Deutsch bitte. Ich bin froh, wenn ich das gesagt habe, weil es für mich aus der Gruppe sehr die Frage war, ob da etwas in non-dualität geht, wenn wir in der dualität und non-dualität pragmatisch umgehen.

[38:11]

Mir schien es, dass das eigentlich nicht geht. Und ich habe mit anderen in der Zeit benagt, auf die Verzögerung zu messen, viel Zeit verbracht, ohne uns die Situation vorzustellen, wie es sich denn anfühlt, wenn wir das so sehen. Zum Schluss, ich erinnere mich, wie die Bekämpfung dort war, wenn sie Therapiestunden anfingen, wie viel sie dann davor getan hat, Yes? Who's next? First, next. Who's avoiding their obvious responsibility?

[39:23]

Hard to remember. I think he is the one... It was strange. I felt exhausted and kind of shuddered. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. And they had a theory in practice. It just kind of didn't fit together what you said in the afternoon, theoretically, practically. And then we also discussed for a year. And then we discussed how what radical totality is in relation to clients.

[40:59]

Then we had the subject of reflecting like a mirror at the other in a non-dualistic way. We make also the opinion that this is a big step to realize that and that we don't just smash the mirror right away. We named it. And rolled off to dinner in the sunset. Something that you thought you would have understood before. It slipped into the non-understanding.

[42:13]

If that might even be a feeling or necessary constructive process that you don't understand anything. so that they think it's like the destruction of the systemic. We wouldn't want to do that. I do think that often we encounter something new, Or even in a situation like this sometimes. Or in a situation where some insights come up.

[43:18]

And it's almost as hard, it's about as hard to remember the insight an hour or two later As it is to remember a dream later in the day. The insight made real sense at the time. But the rest of your thinking doesn't support it. So it sort of slips out of sight into the rest of your thinking. What aspects of what I spoke about or came up that were theoretical that didn't seem practical or practicable?

[44:30]

You cannot say that generalized way. Some of us, we had the impression we just cannot grasp it. Yeah. Well, some things like all-at-onceness, you just can't grasp. It can't be conscious, because consciousness is sequential. Helpful, easier for me. If I hear this all at once, that's a beautiful word. Please, sir. You sound like a guy it'd be fun to go to dinner with.

[46:00]

Yeah, okay, so I'll do my best. I want to say something to Siri in practice. It was in this direction. Some of us, at least, and I too, The feeling came to me that somehow you spoke about the senses and we just weren't physically in the position to listen to that anymore. Somehow we were so fascinated that maybe we were out of it. Because it took so long, it was two hours.

[47:24]

And at this point, which came up in this narrative, that our senses and our awareness are going across and coming back to us. Also because of the fascination, the job didn't notice when he went over this limit. But then it just took that. And before that, we just felt beyond that. And that was such a massive impression. Then only we could enter into this field. And it seemed like I was trying to speak to you that you talked about senses and that you couldn't even feel the senses anymore. And it seemed like the paradoxical animal was bothering me long and tiring to perceive that it was very strange.

[48:30]

Was it good or bad? And more than one person had it. Yes. It was contagious. Was it only in this group? Yeah. That's a Medellin idea. That's the reason why that was so large. Price is big. There was a kind of split between the way your senses were going and the way your mind was going.

[49:49]

It's a good chance to pour a lot of things in. Yeah. Yeah. What? Feel like that sometimes too, yeah, maybe. Well, I'm sorry if it was... Okay, it's 10.30. Okay. So why don't we have a break? Is that all right? Okay, and come back at 11. Okay, thank you very much. He thinks it's at a football game. Thanks to your t-shirt.

[51:15]

Okay. Is there anything someone wants to say or should I just start with something? Yes, go ahead. You see that you don't grasp anything. You just allow things to pass, and you don't keep your eye more to the inside than to the outside. Just accept everything of sense is depression. to notice it and to go by. It's moving about. And yeah, it's a whole experience for me. All right, we're getting there. The fountain, this is . If you simply notice every sense of it, without having anything to do with it, that is, to take something out of it, to observe it in a different way, to just let everything be as it is and to say, it doesn't matter anymore outside, that's the way it is.

[52:40]

If you just let it move, that's the way it moves every now and then, and that's how I see it, this all-in-one experience. Okay, can I try to understand? So... She's not so sure, but... Let's take the advice to not invite your thoughts to tea. Okay. You take that a step further, or at least call it the moving mandala. And you have a feeling of things appearing and arising and disappearing. Is that right? And by not engaging in engaging yourself with any of them and openness begins to feel that

[53:44]

you begin to feel a kind of openness. So not getting involved generates a feeling of openness. Or openness or readiness. And that feels like you could call it also a kind of all-at-onceness. Something like that? The sense of I or an observer disappears. Okay. So the feeling that everything goes on is something like all at once.

[54:52]

No? Okay. All at once is... I... It's selected, all parts are selected, experienced by my body or whatever. It's just there for a moment and then it disappears and it's coming back again. So that is all gone. Okay. Was enough of that in Deutsch? Yes? No? Was it all in German? What was in German, too? Okay. Yeah, okay.

[55:53]

I'm sorry. I just was trying to see if we could capture some words for it. Thank you. Yes. That is a quality to snap it identified. Yeah, I think that when there's a feeling of, the words I would use, openness, readiness, non-discriminating, Yeah, that's, yeah.

[56:55]

This is sometimes expressed in phrases like, I'm always close to this. sehr nahe oder ich bin fast dran. You can't say you're there, but you can say I'm close. Also man kann nicht sagen, dass man wirklich dort ist, aber man weiß, dass man dem sehr dicht ist. Or another phrase, not knowing is nearest. Oder ein anderer Satz, nicht wissen ist am nächsten. Not knowing is not it, but not knowing is nearest. Also nicht wissen heißt nicht, dass es das sei, sondern dass dieses nicht wissen ist dem am nächsten. Or Zhaozhou asked Nanchuan, what is the way?

[57:58]

And Nanchuan said, not mind. What's his name? Nanchuan. Nanchuan. Not mind. Not Buddha. Not things. So he does not mean that it's something other. Okay, so it's a fourth category. He means the way is discovered. Even if I look at all of you and I feel you, as I've often pointed out, as out there, but simultaneously within my mind and body, even though that's an important practice, the moment I feel you in my mind, I say, not mind. And when I feel, yes, the potential... For instance, if you experience people from the outside, it's very difficult not to discriminate.

[59:24]

Your mind runs to discriminations about male, female, how they're dressed, etc. Young, old, pretty, unattractive. But if you experience people from inside, from inside them, You know what your own inside feels like. You can look in the mirror and say, oh, that may be surprising. And as you get older, it happens more and more. Who dat? But you can know yourself from inside. And knowing that feeling, you can know others from knowing your own inside. When you feel others from their inside, we're in an amazing, extraordinary world.

[60:37]

All these energies or lights moving around that you can't discriminate about. That's a practice we could say close to knowing people as Buddha. Or feeling the potential of this, feeling this extraordinary human potential in us. That we call Buddha. Even when you feel that, you say, not Buddha. And then when you see objects, when you see the world, you say, not things.

[61:51]

That mind is the way. So that's also a kind of moving toward non-duality or a kind of opening to all at once. Anyway, it's these kinds of practices that begin to move you into this territory. Yes, Crystal? So if you have this Buddha client or patient in front of you who presents his problems, then I cannot imagine that.

[62:57]

Then I cannot imagine how in any kind of therapeutic way I can react to that. I would need to do that a very different way. I don't know. If you felt the Buddha presence of the person in front of you, How could you also react to the wine bag that's there? They feel so good that you also recognize them as Buddha. And they now know you know where they're really at. That they open up, you know. I hope that's true. I'd be a good therapist, you think?

[64:14]

Okay. Maybe I missed my profession, missed my calling. See, that's one of my parallel lives. You know, your parents might have a life they wanted to lead, but they didn't. And so then if you have children, then your children lead the life you wanted to lead but didn't. And those parallel lives run alongside you. So when I look at you, maybe I'm looking at all my parallel lives. Maybe that's why I'm here. You said, come to Austria and see your parallel lives. Yeah. Okay, something else. Yes.

[65:28]

And this is a wrong question. You know, when I went to focus on and said, how can I remember what was tiring? And I don't remember what was said in that talk, but just trust that the other has this power in himself that is very helpful. So she tries to trust. It's not about I have to do it or have to give it. I'd also say, again, something I repeat in various forms very often.

[66:49]

Try to stay in a situation with a client where you feel nourished. And if you're being depleted by the person You really notice the depletion. I kind of let it happen and pull the depletion back into me. No, no. Depletion. This is good. I like that. Depletion. She studied tailoring once. Depletion is when something becomes... Just blows out. Yeah. Yeah, so ausgelaugt. Innervated, yeah. I've translated many times.

[68:05]

Really? Oh, that's good. Yeah, I have pleats in my robe. It would be helpful if you could repeat that sentence of the depletion again. Okay. I think there are several good rules. never sacrifice your state of mind try to live in a way that you don't sacrifice your state of mind try to do things in a way that you always feel nourished by the activity and try to do each thing so it feels complete And if you're with someone, you're trying to be with them in a way that you feel nourished simultaneously with whatever's happened.

[69:09]

Yeah, by the air, by whatever. And to the extent that you also let yourself be in the place where the other person is, you try to be there in a way that you feel calm. It's funny, this has come up from several points in the last half hour or so. Because Christina asked me about... something she had, an experience she had working with clients. By the way, the word client in English just means somebody you have a contract with. Like a lawyer has a client, because there's a contract to do something.

[70:34]

And I said that during responding to her, I said during the 60s in San Francisco, there were a lot of crazies. And a lot of the crazies also took a lot of acid. LSD. And Zen Center was open 24 hours a day.

[70:50]

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