gen rin, rin meaning forest and sangha. And so through the Sambhogakaya body we take refuge in the sangha. Because we know this body of non-referential Realization is shared with everyone. So this is to take refuge in the Sangha, to take refuge in this dimension of each person. And this we can trust. So this is to take refuge in Buddha, Dharma and Sangha, the first of the 16 precepts.

[01:13]

Buddha, in this sense, means the Nirmanakaya Buddha. The presence of this teaching, which is now born from the Dharmakaya, reborn into the Sambhogakaya and reborn into the Nirmanakaya, And so the Buddha now is the presence of this implicit teaching in our life. So there's the trust that arises from understanding our karma and understanding the form of our life and taking these vows,

[02:14]

And there's the trust that arises from emptiness or big mind itself. The mind from which everything appears. And trusting in that generates the Sambhogakaya body, the body of bliss. The body of connectedness and simultaneity. And that, when brought into activity, is nirmanakaya buddha. So these two work together, the karma, the vow body and the... dharmakaya body, to create the realization of Buddhism in our society and in our life, which is already mixed in our life.

[03:26]

And this is, we could say, this is the Buddhist way to use the chemistry of trust to bring Buddhism out from our own life and out from our society. So it's trusting trust. And finding what we can trust. And thus we have this practice. So this is to take refuge, the first of the 16 precepts, in Buddha, Dharma and Sangha. To discover what we can really trust and to bring our trust to it. Thank you very much. Satsang is over.

[05:09]

That was very long. That was an immeasurable period of satsang. Is it okay if... I know you're all armed with questions. If we sit for a few minutes first. Pause. Pause. So the last and the preceding days, I've given you some questions now, please.

[06:37]

Give me some questions. And you will sit here and do your discussion? Yeah. I'm not going to save the questions up Okay. Who's first? In our group, the first question said that it might be that by the precepts the guilt feelings become more and the superego becomes even more than before and there was a fear about it. I must be in Europe or America. Because we are in a guilt culture here.

[07:40]

Can you translate it? Can you say it in German? We had the fear in our group that it would be even more about the ego and the guilt feelings would be increased by making confessions. The second verse is taking refuge to the Buddha as the perfect teacher, with the main subject on perfect, and the Dharma as a perfect teaching. We discussed about the this do not have our anger because in our society we are already grown up with suppressing a lot of anger and we had the discussion that it might be very good for us to express our anger because it was also in the discussion that there is a lot of strength and creativity in anger, the energy of anger

[09:23]

And that anger is also a natural feeling. As the question was, how do you go with anger in the sandal? How is that a way to deal with anger? Auf Deutsch. Okay, auf Deutsch. What does the sentence mean? That one should not be annoyed. And we said that when we are all raised like this, or many of us who are raised like this, there is a lot of anger to suppress. And that we also said that anger can sometimes be good, to express it first, to feel it, to understand it. And a lot of anger is expressed in the sentence.

[10:29]

Okay, so how should we go about this? Shall I hear questions from all the groups at first? Or shall I try to respond to some of those? Can you remember all questions? I've heard them before. These questions, it's impossible for me to forget. Yes, I don't know if I can remember, but maybe. What else? Okay, yeah. I just, our group, I think we have three persons who ask the questions.

[11:35]

My question was, or one question was, was concerning this anger. We should not harbor anger. Yeah. This word harbor is a little strange because, for instance, it's a possibility to have been harboring anger for a long period, not only in this life, probably much longer. And if it comes out, Basically it's a good feeling if it finally comes out. Because we have been suppressing it for too long. But harboring goes much beyond that. It's not only the actual present feeling, it's a much longer kind of emotion which has been with us for a long time, as much as probably frustration or sadness or other emotions, any other emotion. But not to harbor it. It's very difficult. I find it very difficult to stick to this point. It means just don't stay angry.

[12:36]

Yes, okay. I suppose so. It's not, don't so. And I personally and some of us found it very difficult, but especially I find it difficult to deal with this point, because this annoyance can already be very, very, very old. And on the contrary, I am happy when I first feel this annoyance and can then let it out. The question is how to store or preserve this concept in Buddhism. One question of all. Okay, next question. First of all, we talked about Buddhism, Christianity, because one person... Just think, did you need to add in German what she said?

[13:44]

Oh, I just said it before. Well, you did say it in German. Okay, go ahead. Because one person told us about her conflict, a conflict of loyalty, and the question is, does the commitment to the Buddhist way interfere anyway to the commitment to the Christian way? You can be married to Christ and Buddha can be your mistress. LAUGHTER Du kannst mit Christus verheiratet sein und Buddha kann deine Geliebte sein. For your lover or something. So we already have the third question. No, Fred, let's translate it. Okay. In our group we first talked about Buddhism and Christianity because someone from our group reported a loyalty conflict.

[14:46]

And the question was, how do you translate the word commitment? Commitment to the Buddhist path, but there is somehow a conflict with the commitment to the Christian path. Or to put it more briefly, to put aside the curses, somehow to argue with the evening prayer. I don't know anything negative about it. He said something in German but didn't say in English. Oh! Yes? Yes, does taking the precept interfere with the Eucharist? Taking bread, what? Taking the Eucharist? Not for me. I mean, some things... Eucharist?

[15:53]

Eucharist? What? Could that be the Eucharist? Yeah. Yeah, well, I can respond to that now in a sense. I mean, for Buddhists, these things are not important. I mean... I know one Roshi, Western Roshi, who was... didn't want anyone from his group to go to any other Buddhist group, etc. This is like Catholic, some kind of Catholic idea, like you don't visit a Protestant church or something like that. I knew a Roshi here in the West who didn't want his students to go to other Roshis. It's like Catholicism, you don't visit Protestants. You know, and I know actually a couple of missionaries. One of them is a translator, Tom Wright, of Uchiyama Roshi's books.

[16:55]

If you know those books about the garden or vegetables or the cooks, I don't know. I forget what they're called in English. But he was a missionary in his Protestant missionary in Japan. as a young... He would go visit a Buddhist temple, too, and he was just curious. And his people, his mentor, got so angry at him that finally, after a while, he said, the Buddhist church doesn't care if I go to the Christian church, but the Christian church cares, so he became a Buddhist. So they lost him. This is not really about Buddhism. This is about the truth.

[18:03]

So if you take refuge in the truth, if your truth is Christianity, it's fine. There's no problem. So you can take the precepts, if you like, with the feeling I'm taking refuge in the truth. Okay, go ahead. Is that your... It was not mine. No, but I mean, is this your... It's not. I don't have this conflict. Oh. But I mean, this was the question. But you're also the person who asked the question. Yes. Okay. So, anyway, you're the person who asked the question. So, is that finished? So who's next? I have a quick question. Combined with all of that, just with the last words you said, to water the truth, what does it mean, sexual misconduct?

[19:16]

In some way everybody thinks it knows that we should not hurt the partner or hurt myself or we shall not have sex with kids or we shall not rape a man or a woman. So if I use these rules, it's so combined with my fear and with the pain of a person and so on, what is the deeper sense of that one? I can ask, what is the truth of sexual behaviour in the view of Buddhism? Or conduct or misconduct. Conduct or misconduct, whatever it is. Good. OK. It's not up to you. Yes, I can answer the question of what is the truth.

[20:22]

That's how I tried to formulate it. Actually, the question is, what is the truth of sexuality? One could go to one level with this formulation of sexual misconduct, which is quite simple, do not hurt your partner, do not hurt yourself or have rules that we all know, do not have sex with children or do not do sexual violence against a man or a woman, but it seems to me to be too shallow. Okay. So, some other three questions? Some other group? We have one more question about the last of the ten prohibitorial precepts.

[21:40]

What is meant by the disciple of Buddha does not abuse the three treasures. What is abuse? How is it possible to abuse the three treasures? One question in our group was regarding the last of the ten supplications. How is it possible that a student of the Buddha does not abuse the three treasures, but what is meant by the word abuse and how is it possible to abuse the three treasures? Can I have the precepts? Sure. It's generally said that the first five prohibitory precepts are more for lay people, and the last five, all ten, are for...

[22:53]

monks or priests or something like that. Okay. Okay, any other questions? Yes. I have a question. You often read, I think, what is meant by Dharma. Hmm? Oh, okay. Okay, anything else? What is meant by the emptiness of the teaching and how do you practice this? Because of the emptiness of the teaching, we wouldn't want... Because of the emptiness of the teaching, we don't mind if you practice Christianity or Judaism too.

[24:01]

And if you really understand Christianity as empty, then you're also a Buddhist. So emptiness comes before Buddhism. Okay. Is that enough? Some more? Sit here a little more. You usually use this... I don't know how to explain, but this piece of, when you bow to the altar, you use this special... Oh, the zagu, the bowing mat, yeah.

[25:17]

And yours has a kind of shape of cross. Yeah. And for instance, Gisela's has a kind of rectangular shape. So what does it mean? It means she's more pure than me. She is purer than I am. So, when Roshi is bowing down to the altar, then he always puts out this cloth and in the middle a cross appears with the Roshi. For Gisela, for example, a rectangle or a square, depending on how she lives. So now what I'd like to do is just I'll start speaking about some of the things that you brought up. And please, you can interrupt me or add or say I didn't answer that or something like that. We should honor something.

[26:48]

It's good if we honor something. And we all have a sense of honoring things. When you take a walk on the beach and you find a stone you particularly like, you're honoring that beach stone. And then when you bring the stone home and you put it on your table, you know, this is honoring something. And sometimes you might have some beach stone all your life, some particular one. So anyway, we have this sense to honor something. You know, as Eric and Christina honor Julius. This is their big job now.

[28:01]

Sometimes they have to wipe him and everything, but he's not as simple as a beach stone. So we treat Buddha's robe this way. This is some kind of beach stone. And Buddha supposedly made this from scraps of cloth. And the tradition was you made your own. And you found pieces of cloth and you sewed them together to make your robe. So this is a convenient form of Buddhist robe, that's all. As I said, you know, if you wore a Buddhist robe all the time, the big one, It's quite hard to drive a car, for instance.

[29:24]

I've done it, you know, and then in an emergency you try to move quickly and the safety belt has got your robe, your arms. Yes. Or the corner sticking out the door. So... So we don't do that. We have some rules about how to take care of Buddhist robes. And one rule is you don't put anything on top of it. It always goes on top. Die Robe geht immer oben auf. So if you pack your suitcase, you put it in last on top. Wenn man zum Beispiel seinen Koffer packt, dann kommen die Roben als letztes oben auf. Then when you wear the big one, we put the bowing cloth down so that we protect it.

[30:32]

And it makes a mandala. And it means, wherever you put it, that's the bodhi mandala, the spot of enlightenment. So it's... The form mine makes is... You know, it's quite a... It's a shape like this, actually, very long. And when I fold it, I make the mandala. So it means this mandala, where enlightenment can occur, you make, and you make it anywhere. But actually everything, all at once, is the bodhi mandala. So that's why Gisla's form is purer than mine, simpler, because it's just a square, and mine is more obviously a mandala.

[32:05]

So actually the mandala is emptiness. Anyway, that's Buddhist thinking. Yeah. So that's the meaning also of don't abuse the three treasures. It's good practice to respect these things. Like you feel differently when you walk into a cathedral than you walk into a nightclub. There should be some difference. You can say everything is the same, etc., but no, there should be some difference.

[33:09]

So, you want to remind me of... Yeah, concerning the Raksu, can you say something about these little geometric fields and this kind of order? The secret behind this order. The meaning of it. There's no meaning. Keine Bedeutung. The meaning is in the making of it and in the... wearing of it, that's all. Buddhism doesn't have much symbolism. It's not a teaching involved in symbols. It's involved in representations, but not exactly symbols. Have you any help for that question?

[34:33]

That we are so used to ask the meaning. We are so used to ask the simple. And you always say, there's no meaning. What is the trap? There's something like a trap always going to that meaning, that simple. What is that track? [...] I've heard in the United States of Kishi Sensei that Japanese say how, Americans say what, how much, and Europeans say why.

[35:44]

Japanese say how and Americans say how much. The Americans say, why is it that much? Somebody said, what is wisdom? Good judgment. What is good judgment based on?

[36:51]

Good judgment is based on experience. What is experience based on? Bad judgment. Bad judgment. Bad judgment. This question of... I think the basic difference is Buddhism is an internalized world and not an externalized world. For example, there's a wonderful mythology... sort of meta-iconography to say Chartres Cathedral.

[38:20]

To say? For example, Chartres. Chartres? Yes, to describe the Cathedral of Chartres. And the whole, supposedly the whole floor plan is based on the... a body of the Virgin Mary and the mudras, the chakra points. And if you go in one door you see the Christ figure and behind it is a stained glass window and the other end of it which is the nimbus for Christ but in the center is the Virgin Mary and vice versa and so forth. And supposedly the shape of the door is like this is to awaken your nimbus, your aura, when you go through the door.

[39:26]

And supposedly the craftsmen who made these things had it all written in their plans, but it was all written in code, so nobody but, if you were trained, could read the meaning. supposedly later centuries lost didn't and they began to rebuild in ways that didn't reflect the original understanding so this is an externalized world as when you go into chartres you're in the body of the Virgin Mary or something like that. Buddhism has nothing like this.

[40:28]

We do give a mandala pattern to the altar. But that's meant to be internalized in you. And you rearrange it all the time. It's not fixed. It's like the sand mandalas in Tibetan Buddhism. You minutely make this thing and then dump it in the river. And so Buddhist temples are basically domestic buildings. You know, they're a little different, but basically there's no... They're just big domestic buildings.

[41:33]

When I first went to Japan and Asia, I thought, God, these big buildings are supposed to be important temples. They were barns. Basically they're barns, big barns, cold as the devil. So it's some kind of difference like that, I think, maybe. Yeah. But one of the meanings of this is that it doesn't have meaning. It makes me think of Earl the Pearl, who was a famous basketball player. And Pearl the Pearl was famous for taking strange leaps and twisting in the air and then going down and then putting the ball up.

[42:50]

And someone said to him, how do you figure these things out, you know, these complicated moves? He says, man, I don't know what I'm doing. If I knew what I was doing, they'd know what I was doing. Man, ich habe keine Ahnung wie ich das mache. Wenn ich das wüsste, dann wüssten die Gegner das auch. So no one could figure out what he was doing. So the part of this is that it takes someone else to help you to do it. It's actually a kind of origami. And when you do transmission and even the Yes.

[44:05]

I asked him what is origami. Yeah. Oh, it's that paper from... You know, like those little birds that... Oh, yeah. ...Islam made everywhere. That's origami. And when you get... If you get your paper, if you get this piece of paper with the lineage on it for... with your raksu, it's also folded a special way. And if you take it apart, you have a hard time putting it back together. It's meant to require the intimacy of moment by moment how you fold this and then that goes in there and then etc. Okay.

[45:14]

So, some other reminder? Anger. The anger. This is a big thing for us. Do you get angry at a tree? So why do you get angry at another person? So I don't think anger is necessary. Just stand around like a tree, you know.

[46:36]

Okay, how do you work with anger? We have the idea that it's good to express it. I don't know about that, but it's certainly good to feel it. You shouldn't be angry. This isn't about should or shouldn't. Sometimes we're angry, sometimes we're not. The precept is don't hang on to the anger. So, but how do we work with the habit of anger we have?

[47:47]

And anger from the past. And it's often tied up with with pain or being hurt. I think the first... If you practice zazen, the advantage, the opportunity this gives us is to have a place which is neither suppressing, repressing or expressing. but a place in which you can let yourself feel anger without acting on it. So I would suggest that you use zazen, to get to the bottom of your anger.

[48:57]

Go into zazen and be as angry as you encourage your anger. And turn into a red and white hot fury. He always wants to know why. And I think you encourage it until you just feel it, but you really learn to absolutely sit still. And I've said this many times, it's one of the truths of practice, which is, if the more you learn to sit still,

[50:01]

the more you can be angry. Do you understand that? Because once you really know, you will not act on your anger. You can really let yourself be angry. One of the reasons we suppress our anger is because we're afraid of it. So you're not afraid of it at all, because you know you... You have this ability to not act on it. Then you can find ways to express your anger. And usually there's a In my experience, there's usually a genuine base to the anger.

[51:21]

Some real reason, you have a kind of justification for your anger. And if you see it's just a bad habit to cover up pain or something, then you... begin to let your pain come out instead of your anger. But if it's some kind of anger, you can... find out what the basis is, and then say to the person who's made you angry, such and such bothers me. This kind of makes me angry. But I think one don't harbor ill will also means deal with it in the moment. And my experience is if you

[52:26]

Begin to allow yourself to feel your anger in the present. And express the essentials of what it's about. you stop creating anger in the present. And when you stop creating anger in the present, you stop creating anger in the present. you create the opportunity to deal with your anger from the past. But if you have a tendency to respond with anger and hurt all the time, the precepts mean this is what you work with until you've gotten through this.

[53:38]

Does this make sense? Some reservations about it? I would like to add one thing that I can be really angry, really angry and I can just stop in the middle of it since some years. And in the past I had to go on and on and that led to hurting other people and I just lost control. But I can, it's just like I suddenly realize it's like a I can game or play, and I can stop.

[54:42]

I've made the experience in the last years that I can be very, very annoying and can become, but in the middle of it, I can just stop all of a sudden and realize it's like a game. I can keep playing, but also stop. And in the past, I was really trapped in this cycle, having to keep going and losing control and then injuring others. Gerald and I have been good friends for a long time. But whenever I went to Europe, particularly in the early years from Crestone, I would know when I came back, I would have to face about two weeks of Gerald's anger. And it came out in various ways. Usually the second or third day it would come. But now it doesn't happen much anymore. But anger is also a way to communicate.

[56:03]

And sometimes your teacher may be angry. Stop! But it's a kind of communication. But, you know, if you... As you become... As you practice more... Okay. Excuse me for using your son as an example. Here's this little tiny guy. With his round head. And it's kind of hard to be angry with him. He's just some incredible creature.

[57:05]

The whole universe has to have work together to produce this appearance. So he's like some kind of jewel hidden in the mountain of form. But each of you are like that. It's just that you're grown up. Our mistake. Sometimes, yeah. So, how can you be angry with a jewel hidden in the mountain of form?

[58:09]

If that's the real basis of your perception, and the appearances are something added to that, And also, if I look at Manfred... Again, Manfred is appearing in my mind. What is your name? Ulrich, I meant. Yes, you say. Ulrich appears in my mind. And... So when I'm looking at you, I'm actually looking at my own mind. In which you're appearing. I like my own mind.

[59:13]

So how could I dislike you? Because you're appearing in my own mind. And how does it make sense for me to be angry at my own mind? So when I lose that and I externalize you, then I can get angry. But the more there's a balance between my knowing what I'm hearing and seeing as my own mind and I'm seeing you as a separate person, the more there's a balance there, the harder it is to get angry. And it needs a balance between the one side, where I perceive you as a receiver in my own mind, and at the same time see you as an independent person, the more I can have this balance.

[60:22]

You change the dynamic of the way energy works in yourself. And emotions are usually an energy which takes the form in the world through externalizing the world. And when you more internalize the world, the dynamics of psychology work differently. So you get so that you are, if you practice after a while, you get so, you can say, well, maybe a few years ago I remember being angry. But basically you're not angry anymore. You know, I get angry or annoyed sometimes when I see these big nuclear power plant energy stations.

[61:31]

But I can be angry because of the profit motive or something like that, but then I can be angry about the soapbox, because that's also a profit motive. I think my own opinion is that these machines are profoundly stupid. And immoral. But still, on the whole there are efforts of people to solve our problems, our energy problems and so forth. So then we have to look at the stupidity of the human race. And then you have to remember that I am also human.

[62:59]

I'm part of this stupid human race. And because I know I'm part of this stupid human race, I'm taking the precepts. Like this. Okay, something else? Well, there's no way to translate this. It's not clear, but we know there's some problem. This is one of the areas where there is the most possessiveness. And the deepest pain.

[64:02]

And the deepest attachment. So we have to somehow recognize this deep attachment. And not get caught... by our own attachment, so that we cause suffering through our own attachment. And we also have to recognize the society we're in. And respect the society we're in. And it has all these rules. Some of them don't make any sense, but you break them at your own peril. Mm-hmm.

[65:03]

So I don't have much more to say than that. You have to balance society's rules with your own understanding of what... Ihr müsst die Regeln der Gesellschaft ausbalancieren mit euren Vorstellungen, was das Beste ist zu tun. And Ivan Illich thinks that one of the big mistakes the Catholic Church has made is to say that marriage and sexual relationships have anything at all to do with God. He says the formats present in the church today, he says, I don't know, is an adoption of the mercantile contract.

[66:19]

in the twelfth century. That they started making an idea of You're making a contract with God when you get married. And what Illich says, who you know was, some of you know, was Pope John's secretary. He's very deeply a Catholic. And a scholar. And a scholar. Which pope? Pope John II. He says what people do with their bodies is their own business and their village's business and not the church's.

[67:31]

And this is more or less the Buddhist view. Basic view is not to hurt people, that's all. Die grundlegende Sichtweise ist, niemanden zu verletzen. And not to deceive. To deceive. Yeah, to touch you. So, what else? It's a good question. Guilt. Guilt. Gold leaf? It's also G-I-L-T, guilt. What can I say about it? I don't know. We had the question that... Personally, I felt some resistance in taking the precepts.

[68:41]

I was not sure if the precepts would reinforce my tendency to react with guilt feeling. Because I know that many people in our culture have this conditioning with guilt. It's quite typical for us. Yes, it is. I know. So my feeling is that there could be a danger that reinforces this tendency instead of getting rid of it. This was, I think, the main part of our discussion. So the question was whether there is a danger that when you take the triceps, the tendency to react with the superior ego, i.e.

[69:42]

with guilt feelings, is strengthened, because that is a tendency in our culture, because our socialization is relatively typical, that it can be conditioned to react with guilt and guilt feelings. And what occurred to me when we discussed this question was that possibly these Buddhist precepts are meant in a different sense than the Christian commandments. It's simply that we're not used to this kind of thinking. What I mean when we discussed this question was that it may also have something to do with the fact that these Buddhist sermons are fundamentally different than the ten Christian commandments, although the content may be similar, but they are fundamentally different and that is very unusual for us.

[71:13]

Let me go back to the question of sexuality a minute, which is that the only Asian country I know well, you know, I've been in quite a few, is Japan. basically completely relaxed about sexuality. I think it gets too neurotic and weird there, a little... But they don't really care much about homosexuality or age difference. It's just people do what they want as long as they're not harming someone. Yes. I had a wonderful experience in a bath house in Kyoto. I went in there. Of course, men and women were separate, but they were old women. And I came in as the youngest, just with my long blonde hair. And of course, blonde hair in Japan is kind of rich.

[72:39]

They looked at me, but then they integrated me in shrubbing their back. So they gave me a sponge, and I could touch them, wherever, on their breasts and all. I couldn't believe it, that we all were kind of touching each other and, how do you say, washing each other. Yeah. Well, you can be in an... You want to say that in Deutsch? Deutsch. When I was in the ghetto, I went to a bathhouse to take a hot bath. There was an old woman in the hallway and I came in with my long blonde hair. Of course, I was already a bit of an outsider to them. Nevertheless, they encouraged me to do what you always do there, to wash each other. Wherever I was supposed to wash them, it was breasts and legs and back and belly. I could take part and they were very friendly and I had to take part somehow, because I was part of this bathroom.

[73:42]

Let me just translate what you said before. Yeah, Japanese people just put their bodies all over you all the time. Some Westerners specialize in going in Japanese subways because it doesn't happen in the West. Well, I don't want to go into the details. I've walked into an elevator and been in an elevator with a pregnant woman And I'll say, oh, your first baby or something?

[75:02]

I'm a total stranger. She'll say yes and she'll take my hand and say, yes, see? And she puts her... This doesn't happen in Europe. You can just put your hand on somebody, nobody cares. You can put your hand on somebody and nobody cares. Okay. The only way I can answer this, respond to this, what many of you are bringing up, and a basic issue, as Ralph and Berendt have brought up in particular, is we really have to look at these precepts differently. First of all, they're not commandments. They're meant to be followed in this fundamental time, as I spoke about this morning.

[76:13]

This may seem strange to you and maybe irresponsible, but you have to get used to it. unverantwortlich, aber wir müssen uns daran gewöhnen. Well, for instance, it says a disciple of the Buddha does not kill. Es heißt hier zum Beispiel, ein Disciple des Buddhas tötet nicht. But we chant in the meal chant sometimes. Okay. 72 labors brought us this food. Manchmal rezitieren wir, 72 arbeiten haben uns dieses Essen gebracht. Well, but some of those labors are keeping insects away from the plants and away from the granaries. So when you eat rice or wheat, Many insects have died so you can eat rice or wheat.

[77:24]

But so you can feel guilty. I can't eat a bite of rice without killing insects. If you think this way, this kind of common way we think, which is both responsible and dualistic. You can never follow the precepts. So should we throw the precepts out? No, even though we can't follow the precepts, we need this point of view. We need this effort to not kill. And maybe we ask permission, like the... Native American hunter who kills some animal, he asks permission before he kills it.

[78:38]

You still kill it, though. I had quite a dispute with Sri Krishnamurti once because in the temple, And San Francisco doesn't have many cockroaches. Yes, cockroaches. San Francisco doesn't have many cockroaches, but I don't know why, but it has many fleas. Millions of fleas. Fleas, yes. And when you come, if you go away to your apartment for a while, and there's been nobody to eat, and the fleas are hungry, you come in the door, and they leap at you.

[79:44]

Millions of them. You have hundreds of fleas on you. And you come in the door, and hundreds of fleas jump at you. I don't know why. But anyway, so one time they had some spray in the temple. And I came and I smelled nice. We shouldn't do this. But, you know, the Japanese congregation wanted it done. And because of that and just because, you know, Sri Sri Sri said, yeah, but we must do it. So, you know, to live, we kill. And there's a word spelled like aware means... It's pronounced in Japanese.

[80:53]

It means the suffering we feel all the time that we have to kill. But that suffering is not guilt. Just some suffering that we have to kill. You know, I drive a car. Cars kill things all the time. And occasionally I've run into animals two or three times. Some kind of badger in the night or something like that and once a deer. So my practice is whenever I see a dead animal on the road I bow. True. You do.

[81:54]

And sometimes quite often. So, even when an insect hits the windshield, Just my habit. It doesn't help. The moth is still all yellow and squashed on the windshield, but... But this is following the precept. Yeah. It's not much, but, you know, something. And it has some effect on me, too. So, what's important at the precepts is the attitude not to kill, not... the actual fact of whether we have or haven't.

[83:01]

And I think if you have this attitude, you're less likely to kill. Or you'll be more careful. Or maybe you'll become a vegetarian. Vegetarian food is still killing, but it's not quite so visible. So we have our little chant, we say. We venerate three treasures and are thankful for this meal, the work of many people and the suffering of various forms of life. I remember some little kid was in my garden in the city in San Francisco. And he was randomly smashing snails.

[84:06]

And I said, don't kill those snails. And he said, Why not? And I said, don't break something you can't put back together. So he's... I don't know, but anyway, he thought about it. Yeah. And A disciple of the Buddha does not take what is not given. I'm sorry, we're going to have dinner a little late. Maybe I should go on for a few more minutes. So we understand this kind of thing, like a disciple of the Buddha does not take what is not given. to mean don't rush into a room.

[85:12]

If you rush into a room, you're taking the room before it was given to you. So we have some habit of stepping into a room with a particular foot. Our practice is to step in usually with the foot nearest the hinge. So it means you stop at the threshold and you kind of feel the room and in a way you're saying, May I have permission to enter? We enter the zendo that way. But we can enter any room that way. So to practice our precepts, we understand them in this kind of way.

[86:26]

We wait until we feel we've been given something. before we do it. So maybe when you're talking to somebody you wait until you feel you're not taking what is not given before you speak. So again, you asked what is dharma. And dharma is... My practice definition is to do each thing at a pace in which you feel either complete or nourished. So again, like if I ring the bell, this is one part of it.

[87:31]

And we tend to hit bells and the densho and the drum from this line of our body. So I won't hit the bell like this. If possible, I put the bell in front of me. And I, in a way, say, I'm sorry, bell, I'm about to hit you. Is it okay? And the bell says, you've done it before. I have some feet. No, he says, I've been waiting. Make me ring. So then I pick this up along this line of my body. You see, how can I say? In a usual way of looking at things that's a stick, you know, a striker or something.

[89:22]

And that's... an externalized way of looking at it for me that's not a stick it's part of my practice that's all it's part of my practice now to leave it there I really don't I mean, it's just part of my practice to leave it there. When I pick it up, it becomes part of my practice. Becomes part of Buddha. So it's part of my practice. My hand is My hand, this looks like my left hand and this looks like my right hand, but actually they're attached. And I'm always bringing my hands together, but they're already together. And I have some experience of myself in this way.

[90:37]

So if I pick up the stick, now it's part of this hand and arm and body. So I bring it into this line. And then when I hit it, I don't hit it with my hand. This has its own independence. And since when you hit the mokugyo, the stick should do it. It should be very loose in your hand. And if you, to practice that, some people hit like this. And then they lose contact with the chanting. The stick is more sensitive than you. So one way to practice that is to spin the stick every time you hit it. Every time you hit the Mokugyo, let the stick be so loose you can spin it.

[91:39]

So, if I hit this with my hand, it doesn't have a very good sound. But if I let this hit it, this has its own independence, so I respect this. So I don't want to take anything away from this. So this is how I practice precepts. This is the customary way to practice precepts. And then the bell says, thank you for hitting me. So for us there's not much difference between the rituals and the precepts.

[92:48]

How much should I say? For example, I'll just show you a little something. If you put your hands together, And just very loosely, you can feel something spongy between your hands. Maybe you can't at first, but eventually you may feel something spongy. You feel something spongy that sort of bounces your hand out. This is mind. This is also mind.

[93:49]

And you particularly feel it in the palm of your hand. So you can think of this as ordinary mind and this as Buddha mind. So when we do gassho, we bring ordinary mind and Buddha mind together. And the gassho is not like this. It's actually got a little space. So your thumbs are like this. It makes a little house in there.

[94:21]

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