Thank you for reminding me that today a day show is scheduled. And it's a special day for me when I'm here at the same time Kaz is. Because... more often than not, we are here at different times. And he's done so much to help us get this place started. Not only teaching here, but also doing the calligraphy for above the door of the Zendo and outside and so forth, and on the Han And supplying us with most of the art we have in the place. And for helping me name this, for us to name this place, Genrinji,

[01:03]

And he helped me and us to give this place a name, Genrinji. Something like mysterious Sangha temple. Which also can just be black forest temple. As some of you know, I'm trying to finish this thing for the book that's being published by this group of Austrian psychotherapists I've been meeting with for, I don't know, 10 or 12 years. And in a conference of systemic therapists, Psychotherapist.

[02:38]

Which is the school of Bart Hellinger which influences most of this group. So at their meeting last year near Heidelberg They had me give one of the main talks on embodied space. And now, since it's the main topic of the book, they really want my lecture, some version of my lecture, something like that, in the book they're publishing. But as you also know, it's pretty hard for me to do anything outside the immediate situation. So I put aside these few days to try to do it. But it's much harder than I anticipated.

[04:01]

It wasn't so hard to give the talk. Because the Helinger folks share a assume the possibility of embodying space. The share and assumption. Yeah, so I could speak to that common assumption. And there were quite a lot of people I knew in the group and who also understood much of what I'm speaking about.

[05:13]

So there was a momentum there. So, yeah. But to write about it for readers who don't share this assumption is, you know, I find not so, not easy. I would say the assumption of the Bart Hellinger folks is that a family generates a certain kind of space. What do we mean by space? Yeah, I think we have to say something like a field of relationships.

[06:22]

Yeah, there's space, our body occupies space. Is that embodied space? Not really what I would mean by embodied space. In a simple sense, maybe. But there's space, immediate space around us. And there's the space which extends in all directions. Which permits movement away and toward. And perhaps the space itself has a movement. But then if I say things like that, what kind of space could that be?

[07:28]

Or can we talk about different kinds of space or parts of space? Well, none of this has much meaning unless we can put it in a practical situation. Okay. Now going back to... What idea do the Bert Hellinger people have? It's interesting that this idea of Hellinger actually started with the Virginia Satir, a version of it, at Esalen Institute. Working with family relationships.

[08:33]

And the idea and the practice has evolved through several generations. And again, the basic idea seems to be, and it's a little magical, but seems to be, that a family generates a certain kind of space. And that once that space is mutually generated, each member of the family carries that space with them.

[09:35]

And then in certain situations, a family member can project that space onto strangers. So, say that I have a certain family space, it's obvious, isn't it? But a family space that I grew up in, that I could pick four or five of you and suggest you be my grandfather, my grandmother, and so forth. So usually I'm told they're gender specific. Then if you stood and occupied actual physical space, so it's somehow not just psychological space.

[10:53]

A certain kind of physical space has to be occupied in a certain kind of way. And then that, once that space feels occupied in the right or particular way, These family actors get moved around a bit until there's a certain field created among them. Then they begin to feel or be able to speak as if they were the family members and familiar with the family.

[12:18]

Okay, so we don't have any scientific explanation of this. But it seems to be the case over and over again that something like this And I've done it enough times to know that there's a certain feeling you get and you begin to almost feel like you're channeling something. Okay, so I feel actually what I would mean by lineage is something like this. And there's quite a few people nowadays, good people, people I like, are virtually attacking or very skeptical about the idea of lineage.

[13:53]

Etwas. Anyway, they don't get it, at least. Yeah, and for me it's something quite tangible. And I would say there's some kind of lineage space or family space generated over generations. As I said, it's rooted in certain kinds of realizations. that there are usually somewhat different realizations than in other lineages.

[15:03]

Or similar realizations, the same virtually, but unfolded differently. So I've said a couple of times there's a kind of pace. Sukhiroshi brought us a kind of pace. Yeah, and I think that I, of course I feel I developed some feel for this ability to enter into his pace. And I feel some of you, many of you, have found a way to enter also into this pace.

[16:09]

And I see that many of you have also found a way to enter into this pace. And as those of you who came from Crestone recently... ...have noticed even here at Jonasov with a lot of people from outside, not residents... ...there's some kind of family feeling. Okay. Now, by pace I don't... mean tempo, so it's hard to translate.

[17:11]

So if I say pace, some practitioner may imitate a certain rhythm or tempo. In this case, by pace, I mean something like how you enter, we enter the particular details. How we enter and how fully we enter the details of each immediate situation. And that entering of... Detailed immediacy, you said? Enter the details of the immediate situation. And that entering the details may be fast or slow, it's not tempo. Maybe it's something like saturating the details of a situation with presence.

[18:34]

Mind touches the details of a situation. No, I really, you know, how do I write something like this? Mind touches the details. I sound like some new age, I mean new age. So, yeah. But yet I'm trying to find words to describe my experience with this. But nevertheless, I have to look for words how I can describe my experience of these things. So, if one's presence or mind, whatever that is, if one's presence or mind,

[19:52]

pervade or suffuse the details of an immediate situation? We could call this something like embodied space. Now, as you can imagine, I am deeply thrilled and amused and enjoying watching Sophia. Our little bundle of wisdom. Sometimes a baby in English is called a bundle of joy.

[21:16]

This is a bundle of Sophia. Okay. So as I mentioned maybe in the seminar, her arms at birth just sort of move instinctively or spontaneously. And I would say that intention and attention are the forerunners of mind. So her attention Arms moving around had virtually no intention in them. And recently she's begun to have some intention in her arms. And she can, for instance, rest her hand on my face or Marie-Louise's face.

[22:21]

And she can more or less keep it there. So there's some intention. But there's not much feeling of attention in her hand. She likes the feeling of touching the face. But there's no attention going into my face or going back to her consciousness. And I think in a few days or a few weeks we'll be able to feel her giving attention to the face and there's a presence of consciousness or mind in her, will be a conscious presence of consciousness or mind in her hand.

[23:49]

Today she's discovered rather by accident, cause and effect. Marie-Louise had her sitting in one of these bouncy Mies van der Rohe chairs. And there was a vase of linden branches on the desk. And with this half-intentional flailing around. She happened to take hold of one of the branches. And the whole thing started moving. And she was completely excited. And terrified.

[25:06]

She thought, what have I done? The sky is falling, says Chicken Little. So she was excited and somewhat terrified. In shock or... And then when she let go of it, she kept bumping it. She didn't know how to grab it. She didn't have that much intention. It got her quite excited and nervous for about half an hour. I discovered cause and effect. It would get almost anyone excited, get the Buddha excited.

[26:07]

The third noble truth. Or the second. Okay. So I would not say her... arm is embodied in the way i would speak about it as a buddhist her arm has some intention in it and maybe eventually some attention But attention is not so fully in her arm that her arm is charged with awareness or presence. I think we can speak of the body as embodying mind When the relationship between mind and body has been rather fully cultivated.

[27:27]

So I had to, you know, if I'm going to write this piece Also muss ich, wenn ich dieses Stück schreibe, oder meinen Vortrag von letztem Jahr neu überarbeite, muss ich gewisse Grundlagen oder Grundannahmen etablieren. Prinzipien der buddhistisch-yogischen Kultur. Carol, did you wear a watch? Yeah, can you tell me? I forgot to wear mine. What time is it? Oh, so I have a few more minutes.

[28:29]

Don't tempt me. It's a nice day, yeah. It's a nice day, why not? That's what they told me from the Austrian Psychiatrist. I can write as long as you. That's what they told me from the Austrian Psychiatrist. I can write as long as you. Thanks. It's interesting that this idea of the Hellinger folks is rooted in Esalen. Which then, in my opinion and experience, is rooted in Mike Murphy's vision which arises from meditation. So there's an intellectual and spiritual history to these ideas.

[29:40]

So what do I mean by it's rooted in Michael Murphy's vision? Michael is one of the most naturally gifted meditators I know. For many years, 10, 12 years, he just naturally meditated 8 hours a day. And much of the chagrin of his family worked as a bellhop and hotel and meditated. And he inherited this family summer estate on Big Sur.

[30:54]

And he was so struck by the difference in the worldview that arises through meditation than the worldview he grew up with. that he began inviting anyone who reflected this new world view, he invited to Esalen. Although many people would not think their Gestalt psychology or something, for example, for its pearls had anything to do with a meditation. Although I introduced Fritz Perls once to Sukhirashi and he afterwards said something to me like, I'm the Western Zen master.

[32:38]

But still, overall, Michael's feeling was these reflect a change of view that's very closely related to yogic meditation. a view closely related to yogic meditation. And, you know, many so-called growth centers, have imitated Esalen. And I know one of them that I've been to a number of times on the West Coast.

[33:52]

But the vision of the leaders of that group is a return to Christianity. To bring these new worldviews back into Christianity. So the overall flavor of their programs and who they invite, although there's some overlap, is very different. So it's... And Bill Thompson started Lindisfarne. He meditated a great deal more Hindu style. But he also is very influenced by Christianity. and by science.

[35:10]

And that vision, the dynamic of that vision, which is primarily science, mystical science, influenced all of the programs that Lindisfarne developed. And when Bill stepped out of Lindisfarne, the meetings after that were interesting but lost the integrating focus. So I don't know exactly what's going to happen with Esalen when Michael decides to step out. But he's very aware that he made use of the hot springs and the beauty of the place to develop the programs. Now he wants to develop something, as I think I've mentioned, as strong as the hot springs and the baths.

[36:32]

But he really wants to put an unprogrammatic meditation place in Esalen. to ensure his, I think, to ensure that his vision, arising from meditation, continue to inform Esalen. So as you, I think some of you know, he has invited me to help him design or to design a meditation hall there. Probably something rather based on the Crestone Meditation Hall.

[37:43]

So I give this again as an example of lineage. And you can even, I think you can see in Bart Hellinger's work, the way in which Michael brought this into his Esalen program, an early version of it. What's the early version? How he brought an early version of Hellinger's idea And to Esalen. And it now is present here in Europe. And myself in somewhat the same lineage.

[38:46]

is from a meditative point of view, asked to say something about embodied space. So this vision is contagious. Vision is transferable. Sukhiroshi's vision is transferable. Dogen's vision is transferable. Transfer is to pass on or to change also? Pass on. And Kaz has done an immense amount in his three books now on Dogen.

[40:08]

Two, three. Two now. Yeah, two. I go back and forth to them so much, it seems like three or four. Moon in a dew drop. And what do you call the second one? Enlightenment unfolds. Which I like the unfolds. So he ignored sudden and gradual. And he has the enlightenment unfold. And I think it unfolds right here. So that's enough, I think.

[41:34]

Yeah, that's only the first few paragraphs of this piece. So I have to give several more talks in order to figure out how to get to the end. Why is the Dharmakaya identified with space? What does Dogen mean when he says the entire universe is the true human body? Or perhaps the entire all-at-onceness is the true human body? How do we shift from a mind rooted in interdependence an interdependent immediacy to an interpenetrating all-at-onceness? Because this can't just be philosophy.

[43:01]

How can we know not just interdependence, but interdependence? that everything is not only interdependent but interpenetrating? And how does the process of cultivating the relationship of mind and body Which are not one and not two, but a relationship that we can cultivate. And how does that process of cultivating the relationship of mind and body Extend to the larger field of our immediate phenomenal space Surrounding space. No, no, the immediate phenomena.

[44:17]

Yeah, immediate phenomena, you can say. And our relationship with others. This way I'm trying to speak about, in some way related to the potential or possible or actual experience of the reader, Thank you very much. You must do what you have to do. You must do what you have to do. You must do what you have to do. Thank you for watching.

[45:38]

De nirio no yakusei ma no niroha yo koto katashi warei ma ken no jiri toki suru koto etari CHOIR SINGS Thank you for joining me for this little time.

[47:09]

On this rather stormy morning, to again explore how we can share the practice of the Dharma. Yeah, and of course, most of you were here the other day when I spoke about embodying space. So I'm still thinking about how to speak about that. And the problem in speaking about it is, you know, how to make practice of it or make sense of it.

[48:44]

Many things we can only make practice of or into practice and can't make sense of. Only when we accomplish the practice does it make sense. But still I make the effort to make sense of a practice. So I have two ways in which I'm trying to make sense of it. One way is for us practicing together. Another is, since I'm writing this article, how to make sense of it for psychotherapists and for non-practitioners.

[50:07]

Perhaps it already makes sense to you. Vielleicht macht es ja schon bereits Sinn für euch. But for me it's not, I haven't caught a feeling of it in the words yet. Aber mir ist es noch nicht gelungen, ein Gefühl in diesen Worten zu fassen. Maybe you don't need to catch it any more than you have, but I'll try to. make the bait on the hook bigger. I understand bait on the hook like for a fish. But this is a dharma hook. Or a sky hook.

[51:23]

Or we say in Zen a straight hook. Yeah. And of course we can, as I have talked about the whole history of Buddhism, in later schools and Zen especially, and we can of course talk about how the whole history of Buddhism, later schools and Zen especially, came to the centrality of this embodiment of space. But I think, first of all, we have to look at some experience that's accessible to us, just us ordinary folks. And I think to really understand something,

[52:25]

You have to understand what it's not. Because usually we understand something or often we understand something. We have a glimmer of understanding. But it gets lost in all the other things we understand. Or it gets lost in things that are similar but actually quite different. So we think we understand something. Yeah, but then pretty soon, the next day, we don't have it really clear. We haven't really practiced it.

[53:40]

And it also could be this or also this or also this. And these are actually different but seem the same and pretty soon it's lost. And so I say that in introduction to coming back to using Sophia as an example. I always feel justified in using wisdom as an example. This little bundle of wisdom. Yeah. As I said last time, she doesn't, didn't have, she has more now. Doesn't have, didn't have, she has more now.

[54:42]

much intention in her arms and hands. Now intention is much more present in her arms. And some degree of attention. And intention is Much more in her face now, too. And she can give attention through her face, of course. When she was first born, she was just there. You couldn't say much more than that. Als sie erst mal geboren war, ist sie einfach nur da gewesen. Man kann darüber nicht irgendwie mehr davon sagen.

[55:51]

Very there, but she didn't have an integrated sense of space and place. Sie war sehr da, aber sie hatte kein integriertes Verständnis oder Gefühl von Ort und Raum. Thanks. Yeah. So what is in her arm and face? Some intention. Some ability to give attention. Attention. What's interesting at this point, actually this is an aside from the lecture, I think attention is the gate of culture and psychology.

[56:57]

Because through attention she gets feedback. And she can begin to see that if she gives certain kinds of attention, she gets attention back. So then intention begins to be maybe even contaminated by motivation. Sorry, did you say attention before or intention? Now, intention gets to be even contaminated by motivation. Yeah, say that she's a pretty little girl.

[57:58]

So she gets attention through being pretty. Yeah, and then she starts needing that kind of attention. So she smiles to get a certain kind of attention. And then our culture starts coming in through that door. And very quickly I think we lose touch with, as even an infant loses touch, with genuine intention and attention. Yes, I suppose we could define Zen practices, Zazen practices, bringing us back to the experience of genuine intention and attention.

[59:29]

So you come closer to a personality, hopefully. not rooted in psychological and societal needs. So it would be interesting to watch attention develop in Sophia. and see if we can not use attention only to manipulate her. There's no way not to have some of it manipulation. You want her to stop crying, so you smile at her.

[60:46]

That's manipulation. But you can kind of find a territory that's not so much manipulation. Mm-hmm. I think here is one of the problems or benefits of Zen practice. It's getting close to our purest intention and attention. It may only happen when we're successfully accomplish the Sashin.

[61:50]

A Sashin which nearly crushes us. Yeah, some kind of, at some point you feel ready to leave and feel so horrible. Nothing will help you except the most genuine intention and attention. Undeflected by personality or what anyone might think. Personality. Or what anyone might think. So back to in Sophia now there's a considerable degree of intention and attention.

[62:56]

And some consciousness. Consciousness in touching and receiving information from that touching. So when that has happened, we can call that, I think, that her arm, let's take her arm, it's easier to speak about, is embodied in consciousness. That's not what I mean by the embodiment of space. Und das ist nicht dasselbe wie das, was ich unter Verkörperung von Raum verstehe. How can I make that distinction clear?

[64:07]

Wie kann ich jetzt diese Unterscheidung klar zeigen? We all have a body embodied in consciousness. Wir alle haben einen Körper, der in Bewusstsein verkörpert ist. We couldn't function if we didn't. We couldn't walk or drive a car or anything. I hope this little calf has survived tonight. It was so weak after hours of not being nursed or licked or fed. shivering almost uncontrollably in the rain there. And a little bump, it would fall over. A little boy calf abandoned at birth, literally. But still, when it walked, you could feel it.

[65:30]

Its legs somehow felt out the mud and ground and then felt out another space. So the stuff of the body is filled with consciousness. That's not what I mean by embodied with mind. If that's all I meant, it wouldn't mean much. It would mean a lot, but not much in terms of Buddhism. Now we know that we can have our right hand feel our left hand. We can bring a certain kind of consciousness to our right hand as subject.

[66:42]

Or we can switch and bring that subjectivity to our left hand. So in that sense, consciousness is present in our body, comes and goes, and present to various degrees. So maybe the thing for me to try to do is use a phrase like mind as space. And maybe this will make it more useful to us practitioners. And maybe this will make it more useful to us practitioners. So, yes, our little calf and our little baby are embodied in consciousness.

[67:56]

But they're not embodied in the space of mind. That takes practice or a certain kind of experience. No, I don't... What more can I say? Let me use a thoroughly changed by me poem of Rilke's. I don't have the original in German or English. So I will give you a feeling of how it, what the poem means to me. He says, Rilke says, space outside ourselves. The space outside ourselves violates things or invades things or defiles things.

[69:20]

Now, in words and phrases, there's an immensity. In words and phrases, they're an immensity. Okay. Yeah, so you have to stop and let each line, phrase, kind of let yourself come into its immensity. Okay, space outside our things, outside of ourselves, that's not so hard to get a feeling for. But invades and violates things. Do you have that feeling?

[70:41]

Does space outside of things violate these trees and garden? This garden is growing in space. Another poet said, in the blue of the sky, each tree, each tree, each plant, each leaf, seeks its soul. So we could say in this garden here, each blade of grass seeks its soul. In the space of this garden in which this garden grows.

[71:46]

Is that the space outside ourselves that Rilke means? Is this the space that violates each blade of grass? Okay, but let's go on with the poem. The space outside of ourselves violates, invades things. If you want to accomplish the existence of a tree, if you want to perform the existence of a tree, Yeah, the tree is just there.

[73:05]

What are you talking about, performing its existence? Yeah, but this is what Rilke says. Do we have a feeling for this? To accomplish or perform the existence of a tree. If you want to know the existence of a tree, you must instate it in inner space. Invested with inner space. It doesn't get better. Doesn't get better. Can you say it again? Invested with inner space.

[74:08]

establish it in inner space that intimate space which begins with you that intimate space which has its being within you Okay, so how do you know the existence of a tree? By investing it with that inner space. which has its source in you.

[75:19]

And then he says, surround it with constraints. He means surround it with intention and attention. that cuts it off from the usual outside space. This space knows no bounds, has no bounds. This intimate space has no bounds. and only becomes a tree is only maybe limited brought to a tree is ordained as a tree through your renunciation He means your renunciation of outside space.

[76:36]

No, I think this is something we can realize or sense or practice. I think it's astounding he connected it with renunciation. That it's through this renunciation of the usual way of knowing things that this space which arises from us The space of this room arising now is also the space that fulfills the tree. It fulfills the tree.

[77:54]

At some poetic moment or inspiration, Rilke felt this. Rilke came back to this. And undoubtedly his writing of poems is a way of coming back to it. And I think you can look in his poems when this is more present in the poems and when he loses touch with it in the poems. And sometimes he's writing poems because he's a poet.

[78:55]

And sometimes he's writing poems because he has no choice. But more than most poets, he writes poems when he's close to this no choice. At least that's my experience of his poems. Okay, so let's go back to zazen now. We could say zazen is to establish yourself in this mind space. In this space of mind which neither comes nor goes and feels connected with everything gives you an experience of everything.

[79:57]

As you feel the garden and the grasses seeking their soul in the sky. So practice then is to again establish accomplish this realize this space of mind, which includes consciousness, and intention and attention. But it's not limited to consciousness and intention and attention.

[81:20]

Thank you very much. Vielen Dank.

[81:24]

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