I would like to talk about listening today after the last time. We talked about it last time. I think it goes very much together or together. In the beginning it was a little bit planned as a talk. And then I imagined sitting on the pedestal and then comes an unsurpassed, drowsy and completely dumb person. And that's a pressure that arises there, which is not only inspiring, but I also talked a little bit with Beate, who is also a bit aspirational, under the axis. But you can actually comfort yourself a little bit by the fact that the Dhamma is here.

[01:18]

It's actually not a person who just announces the Dhamma, but everything around us. Das war eine von Tosano Yokai's, oder die treibende Frage eigentlich von Tosano Yokai. Warum höre ich nicht, dass unbelebte Dinge den Dhamma verkünden? Er hatte das gehört in einem Dialog am from Nanyan, a master from the 7th century, who was asked by a monk, what is Buddha-nature? And Nanyan said, walls and tiles are Buddha-nature. And the monk said, walls and tiles are Buddha-nature. And then the monk asked him back, are these not inanimate things?

[02:20]

And then Nanyan said, yes, that is so. And then the monk said, if that is so, then teach inanimate things, the Buddha-nature. And Nanyan said, yes, that is so. And then the monk asked, who hears that? And Nanyan said, the wise people hear that. And then the monk asked back, do you hear that? And Nanyan said, yes. Ich höre es nicht. Wenn... Wenn... If you don't hear it, how do you know that the white people hear it? And Danyan said, it's good that I don't hear it, because otherwise you couldn't tell me about the Dharma.

[03:22]

And then the monk said, yes, but if that's the case, then the normal living beings don't have a share in the Dharma. And then Danyan said, I don't tell the Dharma about the white people, but about the ordinary beings. You see, in this dialogue there is a standpoint of Nanyan. He says, either I speak to ordinary beings, and I speak, and then I don't hear this Wermann, or I compare myself to the wise, but then I don't have the opportunity to proclaim it. And this question preoccupied Tosan very much, and he came up with this question to Guishan, Kesang, And Khesen asked him, I have heard that unloved things tell the Dhamma. Why don't I hear that?

[04:25]

And Khesen took his master's staff and said, do you hear that? And Tosan said, no, I can't hear you. I'm asking for an explanation. And Dara said, Guishan, I can't give you an explanation from my parents. and he sent him to Yunye, another master, Ungern, Ungern-Dondiu, the later master of Tosin, and... Ungern Lanzhu did exactly the same as Keesan at the beginning. To the question, I have heard that unpopular things can reveal the Dhamma. Why don't I hear that? Hope was very masterful and asked, do you hear that? And Tosin said, no, I can't hear it.

[05:33]

Who can hear it? And Ungern said, you have to hear unloved things. And Tosin asked, can you hear it? And Ungern said, if I preach the Dharma in words, then I can't hear it. Nevertheless, these two were very much alike. The second dialogue with Tosan had something to do with the fact that at some point he understood, and he wrote a short poem in four syllables, which roughly reads as follows. How wonderful! Unlived things announce to the lady, When I try to hear with my ears, I don't understand, but when I hear the voice with my eyes, then I understand.

[06:37]

And at first it seems almost, if you look at it superficially, a bit banal. He tried, this is how you can interpret it, to feel a sound. And in this way he didn't understand. And then she looked and he understood. But he said, he felt a voice with his eyes. and there will be a dialogue later that may shed a little light on how Thosan saw or what Thosan understood. Two monks We were on our way to a wandering room. Tosin was there.

[07:44]

One monk asked the other. They had their wandering sticks with them and stuck them into the ground. A wandering stick, a long piece of wood, and a master stick, a shorter piece of wood. This association can maybe be in your head. One monk asked the other, where does this wandering staff come from? And the other monk answered, it comes from the snow-covered ground. And Susan did not recognize this answer, but she said, if the wandering staff comes out right now, who is there to recognize it? So, this is a different kind of hearing or seeing.

[08:48]

One thing is not limited to the other, but something else is expressed. I want to make a small bow to break a bridge between these dialogues and try to understand why I don't see. First of all, I think, because my perception is intentional. That means I see something and I have a purpose. And this purpose transcends what I see towards something specific. That means I put it into a specific perspective. I'll give you a great example that you can often observe. You go on a forest trail, and then you come across a tree with a sign on it.

[09:53]

And on this sign it says, Buche grows in heights between so and so many and so and so many meters, bloom time then and then. can become old until then. And then comes a part of the shield that makes up half to two thirds, namely what you can do with it. Utilize wood, burn, tables and so on. And then I often wondered what that had to do with the tree standing there. Das ist eine Art, etwas, was einem begegnet, auf etwas Bestimmtes hin zu überschreiten, was am Ende sehr wenig damit zu tun hat. Oder was einem sehr wenig über das sagt, dem man da begegnet, oder über den Akt der Wahrnehmung. And people behave accordingly. They go to two, to three, and talk to each other, go through the forest, and the view is still here and there. And then they come to a sign, and everything stays standing, and someone reads in front, or the whole group sticks to this sign, and then they go on and talk again.

[11:04]

And when they are later asked what a book is, they say it can be up to, how many years? I think 150 or 200 was it. and blooms from there and is there. And that is what they have noticed and seen. And that is a great example of the perception of intentionality, which actually takes place all the time. And to meet this intentionality, Yes, you can ask yourself first of all, what is it that you carry? These are our wishes, or sometimes desires, if you express it a little more negatively, our needs, of course, to live, to need, to eat, to dress. but also to our concepts and perhaps at the very beginning or at the bottom, our six sense organs, which only allow us a certain kind of perception and not another at first.

[12:30]

With all this, for example, you can eat an orioke at this table. And the intention, one intention is to eat food, the other one is also to be careful. And then you notice that with this carelessness, through this carelessness, a lot of intentionality can be triggered. Let's take the word travel. If you look at what happens, In the beginning you go through the rooms and smell the rice. You have a sense of smell.

[13:37]

Then you come to the table and the pot is opened and filled. Then you see the rice and it is poured into the bowl or scratched or thrown, shaken, whatever, or let flow or fall. and then you take the rice out of the bowl with the spoon and it disappears from the face and suddenly a touch and a warm feeling appears on the lips, in the mouth and a taste is developed and then maybe a slight warm feeling in the food tube and in the mouth and all this together we call rice Yeah. Sometimes you are in a mood where you take people very intensely and another person very differently.

[14:59]

And then the question arises, how can you keep both people together? It is so far apart and everything is so intense and so punctual. And in its own way, yes, not in its own way, but totally incomparable. And if you still have the gaps between these individual experiences of the mind, if you are aware of these gaps, or become aware of them in rare moments of silence, in which Jung said that you have to understand inanimate things by no longer being something inanimate in contrast to the inanimate that you take with you, or when you change the relationship, not something inanimate in contrast to the inanimate that you are taken with you, but rather that it is a field of perception,

[16:19]

where these categories of alive and non-alive do not arise at all and do not reach at all, then begins what one cannot even call things anymore, that begins to speak. And in the moment when this happens, who else is there to take this step? So, I think there are many levels and experiences that one has with hearing and

[17:58]

Yes, I would like to hear more about it from you. This is... Yeah. This is a kind of learning. Or a kind of... a kind of how I, Thosan, or how I can compare what I have read with something that I have rarely experienced and experience again and again. And there is, at least at the end, I think there is a direct permeation of speaking and hearing, so that I would like to have one more dialogue, which is also in the dialogue with the wandering dead, in these five positions of Tosan Jöge.

[19:43]

And there is another dialogue in it, which I... Yes, he also accompanied me a little bit and where I think you can simply replace speaking through hearing and that is that Dosen speaks about right speaking and he says right speaking is like playing with a pearl. It neither touches the hands nor falls to the ground. And in front of this background he asks a monk, OK, how do you call what is going on right now, so that it is achieved? That is, how do you call what is coming out right now, what is there right now, a field, a field of perception, before there is an I and an something.

[21:01]

How do you call it? Before it is attained. And it says nothing at first. Dursan says, not to attain, not to attain. And that says something else. It also says that you don't try to learn through words. You can also use ears for that. How do you hear that? Jetzt kommt und geht, sodass es unangenehm ist, nichts zu ernähren. In his article, Christian has already, at the beginning of his article, differentiated himself between two states that bring together different kinds of hearing.

[22:46]

The one being more in thought and expecting, in his expectations and disappointments. The other is this physical being, I call it that, in which the absence of Vekarashi can appear. And maybe you can start with something more about this kind of hearing. Maybe we need more words first than hearing.

[24:29]

Maybe we can get a few more words for it, like to perceive or to understand. and everyone can perhaps add other words, but for me what I have written about, or when I think about hearing, then it is a whole field of experience. That is, that the words always bring something certain, something different for each individual and sometimes also something common for all of us, and then maybe just hearing to hear a sound. Or we can say that to feel the absence of someone as presence is to hear.

[25:38]

Then we start to use the words very creatively. And I think that's quite good. what I have tried to express there is that there is a hearing, an understanding, a perception, that such a feeling as, for example, the feeling of absence as presence precedes that understanding then comes from a place that is not in the words, but in this feeling, and that this feeling is rich, richer than one can put in one sentence, or two, or three, or a whole text.

[26:48]

This feeling can and offers the source of an infinite number of words. And so it is now with what you have told us, and you could repeat the words and say, I understood that, but then we would have to say that the cassette recorder also understood, because we could press the button and the words would come back, and if I have a very good memory, then I could just repeat the words, and then I might have heard, but then I understood what you said. Something is coming to me, that is not in these words or in the reproduction of these words, but that comes to me, and if I have understood it, then I can say it again in my words.

[28:05]

And maybe then, if you nod, we can say, as we just did, that we have understood each other. But I think it is important that one gets contact to this level, which is so rich, that it can come back to Rostock in other words. And I have tried to describe this by letting the word sink in, that's an idea I have, an individual acoustic perception, words that bring meaning, slowly sink in and flow together and lose their uniqueness, so that rather a sense of reality is created

[29:12]

pull together on a term that I could then bring to what you said. Do you think that this sinking in, as you speak, also has something to do with the clashing of the senses? In one dialogue, seeing and hearing were connected, i.e.

[30:26]

the eyes were connected. And you can do that with all senses. And I think that sometimes there is a sense of it. And sometimes I find it completely abstract when I read something like that. Do you think that has something to do with it? Does it play into it? So, as I understood the dialogue, it is about understanding. How do I understand the Dharma of the unloved things? And then he says, I do not hear him. Or his teachers say, I cannot hear him when I speak about it. and first of all this change in another field of perception shows me that I can hear it, understand it, perceive it.

[31:44]

When I look at the change in the direction of perception or the way of encountering it, So really changing, not so much forbidding it. I think that looking can in this case, that's how I understand it anyway, that looking can in this case be hearing, if it's a bird, for example. Do you know what I mean? Not really. Yes, that's how I understand it. I can approach things and try that they speak to me, that they say something to me that I understand. And nothing comes. That's what he said.

[32:45]

I don't hear her. I don't hear the lady. but I hear it when I look at it, and if this looking now would be based on the visual perception, that would be a strange looking for me, so then to understand it that way, to say that looking is then seeing with the eyes, the ground is brown, the structure and so on, So you could actually exchange that, the senses. You could also say, you could have said then maybe smell or something.

[33:50]

So I mean, you don't use that for yourself, but so that you use more of the eyes and ears, but it's actually not so much the real senses. First of all, when it is said to see and hear, these are simply the two things that stand out for the whole sex. So mostly it stands out representatively, because these are also the senses in which most people are most strongly oriented, in the eyes, in the middle, in the top, which does not necessarily mean that it is very important, except that it is very important for me to be moved or to taste it. But for the variety of things that are there, I am very fond of them, and I am very fond of them.

[34:55]

And I think that one could also say that it is very important for me to taste it. And there is a choir. In your eyes you don't hear it, in your ears you don't hear it, in your ears you don't hear it. And when I hear something like that, Yes, I can feel it. Because when I go somewhere, I get a kind of hint. And I have a feeling that I am opening something inside of me.

[35:58]

I often have the image or the feeling of my real opening, but not yet being there. It's like opening the door of a room so easily. I see through a gap, but I have not yet entered this room. But somehow the message comes over, there is something. But nobody says, that's it. Or it's exactly like that. but this is also what Tosan said when he spoke to me. I think touching the pearls with your hands means making definitions, holding on to yourself, looking at yourself, standing in front of you. because letting them fall to the ground is not taking care of it at all, to hide, to somehow hold on to it, and that is something different, to hold these pearls in your swing, simply to ... I always have very shameful images when I try to describe it, simply to open up such a room in which such a thing can appear,

[37:11]

and when I don't access it through a definition, but rather when I say, yes, I'll just let it develop somehow, then it's such a... it's such a manifestation, and at the same time a bit of the feeling that I can't really look at it, I can't fixate on it in any way, then I look past, already alone, already alone, to look for a point somewhere. Fixation means to find a point. Already alone, that doesn't make a point. I made the word feeling somehow strong in this article. and this is how I make it clear to myself, going back to your question about how the different senses flow together for me in this physical space, this always has a dimension of feeling, I see something and then I can concentrate on what I have seen,

[38:29]

the attention is directed to how much the seen changes my sensuality. And then, for example, one can also start to think differently about body language. We react not only when we understand things, not only with words, but also with actions or gestures, because if a space created in such and such a way, I move in a different way. This is also possible in the metaphor of question and answer, for example. The woman asks me, so to speak, the question, how do you want to move in me? There is also a feeling of appropriateness and inappropriateness. because it is also an essential moment in our practice, for example, to deal appropriately with the Uriyuki set, so that the same things in this arrangement almost fall into a certain form, almost fall into demand, so I also try to think about language, so that

[39:49]

but this feeling, this perception leaves me with certain words and others not, when I speak, I cannot simply take every word that is given to me, or I cannot react with every gesture to the other person who meets me, I can, but it is not in any case appropriate, there is such a feeling that it does not fit and that things fall into the river, Don't worry about it. I think it is only a part of the feeling, an important part, especially for the interpersonal. I already told you yesterday that I appreciate the word feeling so much more than the word feeling, for me feeling is much bigger than feeling, but I think that what Dieter has just mentioned

[41:02]

is another part of the feeling. This is beyond the interpretation of the field of perception. You look there is the field of perception, and what does it do to me, how does it shape me, which words let it rise in me. This is an analytical process that is very important and very good, but there is still a feeling before the feeling, before this feeling, and that is when you go purely into the fields of perception, when you im Sehen nichts Gesehenes mehr hast, sondern nur noch in die Wahrnehmung hineinspürst. Und so gibt es auch Hören, du kannst hören, und wie wirken die Worte auf mich, aber es gibt jenseits dessen ein Hören in der Stille,

[42:24]

where the silence becomes the sound, where the whole world sounds. And that is also hearing. But there is no interpretation anymore. There is... No words. And the feeling also fits very well, because the fields of perception actually mix. And you can no longer speak of seeing or hearing or tasting, but at most of all of feeling. So feeling is something that remains. And what you said earlier about fixing, that is also an interesting area for me, because when you are in these fields of perception it is both at the same time, I think.

[43:43]

It is an incredibly fragile area. As soon as you really move minimally, you are dead. Your sentence brings me back to it. On the one hand you fixate it completely, because everything that would be in any form of movement would lead to dissolution, and at the same time it is a completely loose area, an area where nothing holds, almost pulsating, Over a year or so, I experimented with a road that I was driving through every day, a very short piece, called Goldstrasse. It reminded me of this, Roger always has this saying, there is a pearl or a treasure hidden in the mountain of forms, which also indicates this higher.

[44:55]

And I tried every day to walk through this street twice and to be in pure perception, in pure seeing. And that really triggered very different processes in me. One of them was that I was constantly getting sick, because there is such a diversity of perceptions. You go into more and more detail, and suddenly there is something out there that you have already seen a thousand times. There were so many details that you would be completely flooded in your perception. Then I thought, I'm doing something wrong, because it can't be the result that makes me sick. And then I experimented more with colors, so really going into the colors. And it was really, basically I broke it at some point.

[46:00]

because there was also a certain kind of excitement in it, almost like a realization that everything is constantly changing. I mean, we normally go through a street that we know well with the awareness, this street, I know every stone there. If you really try to see every stone, you suddenly have the feeling that you can't hold anything, because it's so multi-layered. The smallest shard looks different after a few minutes, because a leaf has fallen, because something has crumbled, because a gust of wind came. I suddenly realized that this is an area where I cannot hold anything. This world is not to be held, but it is a constant, continuous change, which became an intense feeling.

[47:04]

And Roger once told me that he also worked with perception fields and at some point he found out that he still had one black spot in his body or in perception fields. It was simply black. And he challenged this black spot and said, and if everything gets black, I want to see you, this black spot. He said he sat in the car on the motorway and everything had actually become completely black. And these are fields where nothing happens and it has become bright again. But... These are fields of thought that are beyond this feeling, which I call a re-feeling of results, which is in front of me, but where I also find that the word feeling still fits very well, much better than feeling.

[48:23]

When you talk about it, and when Christian says it, I remember the scene when I wake up in the afternoon and feel like I'm falling back into a world that I don't even know. Normally I immediately know where I am and sort everything out. But sometimes I wake up and don't even know who I am, where I am, what I am, and everything is gone. And even though it's at home, it's sometimes in other places, it's even stronger. Or maybe it happens more often, I think I've had that before. But it's also at home, where I know myself well. I have the feeling that we are very far in this area where there is hardly anything to say. I am interested in the transitions, because I usually think of myself in this world that Roschi describes as this top layer of labels, that there is a world.

[49:46]

It's like a foundation of the world, I don't know what to say about it, and we put a layer of labels on it with language, by naming and naming things and making them accessible. When I wake up in the morning, it's really like checking through. There's an inner voice, not always with words, but it's really like tack, [...] tack. And I'm back again. And in this process one can, well, Roshi talked about this throughout the whole period of practice, to recommend this moment of waking up and falling asleep, to study, because there this change can be experienced, this change from this area where there are no labels yet, where there are no attachments yet, and then to experience how one dives in and how fast it goes. I mean, I'm talking about things from brain research, which have now scientifically proven these scandal stories.

[50:56]

So you can measure that this time I need to deal with the situation here, that I recognize them again, and that's how I see them now, how I find myself in it, and how I find myself, that there is a certain time unit that is relatively consistent with what the Buddhist masters experienced in this skandha passage, and also described as some kind of time unit. It's in the form, in the perception, perception, association and consciousness that you are pushed into it. In a fraction of a second. And this process can be experienced in the threshold areas. And this awakening into emptiness and re-constructing it is also scientifically proven that there are states of consciousness in the brain when certain parts of memory are lost.

[51:58]

that everything turns black. What I'm experiencing here is largely devoid of it and enables the memory abilities to work in me, which already know the situation and immediately assign it and prepare it very quickly. And when it fails, nothing is there. And the... What I want to say is that I am interested in these phases, which I also experience in meditation, where it somehow subsides, where it becomes quieter, where it becomes slower, where this threshold becomes more noticeable, where on the one hand there are the words, the labels and the known, and on the other hand there is something open, dark or unknown. I would like to go one more step further.

[53:04]

I would like to go into a more often experienced world of experience and just ask the correspondents to talk about what kind of and in what way they have been invented in a near way. You just said, for example, that you call these phases in the sense of a kind of... you feel where it slows down, processes of resting or where they go up, perhaps. It is rather something that opens up rather than resting. and whether there may be such experiences from your point of view when listening, whether you have had such experiences and whether you have somehow perhaps also felt what it is connected to or what it is about, or at least what some factors were that contributed to it, whether it was an experience or a kind of hearing from which you came out, as we then said.

[54:28]

Hey. For me there are two things that come to mind. One is an experience that happens beyond hearing when chanting.

[55:34]

This moment when the voices come together and it's like a network, something that carries me or my voice. And as I experience it, it opens up a new play area. So that my voice can start to leave the pitch, to go up and down, so that it becomes easier. Which is very difficult when the voices are not together. So that was a very happy physical experience for me. through listening, I came into our body, into our energy field, which has a lot to do with group listening, with common sounds, common listening and tuning in to each other. And the second thing is what Beate said at the last seminar, that when meditating, for me, a lot of it is about the acoustic, about what's going on at certain points, whether it's bird voices or this clattering.

[56:38]

from our source. In the house of silence it was always crazy because there are trees over the sendo and they are full of birds in the summer that sing incredibly. And in deeper meditation experiences it is then so that I can really rely on such a sound and can be carried away by it. But the moments, I have to say afterwards, the moments in everyday life, to find them again, from the reciting, it is for me a continuous experience that something like tuning in to each other, in such an energetic and also somehow sound area, happens all the time, even now. Or just doesn't happen. And that it is very difficult for her to deliberately influence that. I mean, it's good if I chant and try to get my voice in there, but it's not really to control.

[57:47]

It seems to be the opposite, to the extent that I let it go, let it go, that it comes together and then suddenly goes on in the way it comes together. That's why it's different for me than it is for you, Macher. You told us about your chant association. I also know these things from my school days, that I had a horror before music lessons and singing. In our family, my parents always rated me In the phase where we took all the guitars, and Hannes Wader and Klaus Hofmann were singing Cat Stevens, it was always clearly decided whether we were singing wrong or right. I didn't have a good voice. Ottmar once told me that he found chanting to his voice. And to get a good relationship with someone who doesn't sound that good before.

[58:55]

Chanton really helped me there. And I have all this, because Wiesel says the last thing, that at some point, after years of doing it over and over again, she suddenly found her voice in it and it became clear to her that she had dared. That's not the case with me yet, but I feel the possibility. That's why I like to do it. I don't know if that has anything to do with the question, but I just have an experience that I once had a phase in my second session, I think, where I heard the noises, no matter what kind, very often in advance.

[60:06]

And then they always came very briefly before and then the noise came. And that was a kind of experience of the emergence, I never thought about it, it was just a miracle. Now it concerns me quite a bit what it has to do with feeling and with a different source than the ears and hearing. It must have been a different function, a different ability to hear. What it has to do with feeling or hearing. I don't know. And at the same time, when the sound actually came, it wasn't double, I can't even describe it.

[61:24]

It wasn't like, now the bell is ringing, ping, ping. It wasn't like that either. I can't describe it very well. But when the sound actually came, it was also very... As if it really goes through the whole body. Probably not everyone knows that it goes through the whole body. Stronger than usual. If I didn't get this origin somehow. It just went on and on. It was very... I think it would have been no matter what the noise was. I think nobody would have bothered me. There was no unusual noise. I think a saw or something like that wouldn't have bothered me. There was no evaluation in between. Otherwise I am very selective about what I like to hear and what I don't. Not the case.

[62:28]

Maybe also something more than sound, where there is a difference between sound and sound. Yes, I also believe that there are no disturbing noises in this area anymore. Because you are in an area that lies beyond evaluation. the clear perception, but you have lost the ability to like it or not to like it, but the sound comes and with the sound there is a kind of gratitude that the sound is there and there is a connection to the sound. And it doesn't matter if it's a circle or not. We know other times when circles are different. Huss and schnitzels, they are all like that.

[63:41]

It's like we are one of them. I can't live like this anymore. I can't live like this anymore. Yes, and there I come back to the question of these connections. These are always questions for me, how can I practice something like this in everyday life? Of course, I already have it in my mind, I want to achieve the goal of experiencing it again, the Psyche, to put it aside again. But what are the practical possibilities there? And one of them said to me, I should practice looking from the button.

[64:44]

That's also something like that. And that worked out a bit at some point. I'm just wondering now again, because I haven't done it for a long time, if you know such exercises or connections, if it makes sense in our practice. So an intention, so to speak, how you did it with the street. Did you try out different things? Yes, what do you know in that direction? So to try it out and maybe get closer to it, that it's not just hearing, just like the cassette recorder. I think the highest layer of scratching is to be as strong as possible in terms of perspective.

[66:09]

In the universe? Yes, in the universe. It is quite strange when I want to go somewhere and already have the goal in front of my eyes that everything is going towards it, the current is going towards it and I can no longer see it in its own perspective. That is the one thing. Nothing to do, nowhere to go. Nothing to do, nowhere to go. Nothing to do, nowhere to go. What brought me a little more in this direction is to concentrate more on the heart and to try to lie from there and to make body movements from there.

[67:27]

And then something that seeing that space belongs to me, that, how shall I put it, that makes it possible or surrounds me, that makes it possible for something to appear, so that I don't look at something and the space Just that there is nothing and I can look at it from here.

[68:27]

I can't describe it in a bad way. It's a kind of light form of quality, or a kind of density, or something that carries something. The desire to experiment helps. That has always been my way. I never had any idea that I wanted to do this or that with this street or in that direction. It was suddenly there and it can be in the sesshin, it can be in everyday life, it is also a kind of hearing what the world tells you. this, what do I feel like, what do I want, I want to, I also call it like that, to doggle, and you can do it very well with sound, like this bird twitcher, and suddenly when there is nothing left, and suddenly a bird twitcher falls in, then it can trigger a moment of, yes, I say, of desire, and then you can go along with it,

[69:55]

and it can be anything else, but then to feel the way, where does it make me fun, where is it a good feeling, and then just to leave this free space, and then to become unintentional in this area, then just to go with this good feeling, and then, Yes, then it can actually be that you suddenly think, I am also a bird. And you talk to them. And they are like good friends. Of course, I would like to go out more. Yes, outside it would be much easier. I think it's really important in nature. No, nature helps, yes. Because that is a fact. There is the dialogue. Yes, a dialogue is really much faster. But you are quickly distracted by nature.

[71:15]

If you illustrate what you know and get involved in it. But I really think that these short walks now in the month of practice, that you describe that it happened on its own, I really have that much more than here. I think it depends on the ego. I don't think you can solve it. At least I know that in the phases of meditation I have very little good experience. No, in meditation it's okay. But I think that in the process of coming to nature you are strengthened. to the inner nature, the sense of why we hang these black pieces in front of the window in the broadcast. It has to do with it, as Drosch said, that we don't constantly look into the background. I don't mean that at all. I mean the other hours. We meditate for three hours at the moment. About four, three and a half. And the rest here in the house.

[72:18]

I mean, of course, it has to be there. Otherwise I wouldn't have this experience. In the nature, too. Oh, she's alive. Let's see if we can get her out. We'll take her for a walk. Okay, she'll go outside. I can only say that. I'd like to do that next week. It was very cold today. Tomorrow it'll be very, very warm. With the windpipe. It was really earthy in the summer. As cold as it is now. I was very surprised. I think it's really important to be in touch with the elements. Not that you want to go for a walk outside, I mean, a primitive environment, like a monastery in Japan, where Roger tells you where you go out and then you have the cold water in your face with the other monks, colleagues.

[73:30]

I mean, not that I would particularly like that now, but I mean, you are just stimulated physically in a completely different way. So not so somehow... Yes, somehow, you just put yourself into the scene, that it's quite warm. It's of course nice. But, and also this, for example, working outside is certainly somehow, is very stimulating too. And I mean... We just don't have a lot of chances to be enlightened with a stone. We have to enlighten ourselves with the computer. I don't know if that works, but we'll have to try. Then take some shoes with you outside tomorrow. And let them stand there. And if it doesn't rain, we'll go out tomorrow in Kenema and maybe stretch a little. At least that we can go to the pond once. But it's still dark.

[74:42]

That's the problem. That was also the problem with my light kit. Oh, shit. It was even harder for me to be in the light. Yes, I didn't see it coming up. I was completely blind. That was the other effect. I thought it was going to come up. If it's not covered, it's... But I want it to come up. I think if the first one is on the right, then it has to be on the left. We've been together for 20 years. Oh, I'm blushing. No, you don't necessarily have to go around the pond. If it's so deep anyway, you can't go to the meadow. That's not the problem. I mean, are you really serious now? Or you can... Do you think I'm having so much fun now? No, I'm serious now. You can all go. I mean, you can go one foot in front of the other in the slow motion.

[75:43]

Last time I saw you, it was really tight. Was it tight? Yes, it was tight. I thought it was tight. Sorry, I didn't mean it. You said you didn't want it. No, I didn't mean it. It's fine. It's wonderful. It's wonderful. You can do it like this. [...] Maybe you shouldn't have opened it any further. Everything will be recorded. Why should I record it? I don't know either. Ah, a question, right? Yes, you have to think about it. Why should I record it? Does anyone want to tap it off? He knows. Tap on my teachings, on the tapes. I would like to sit down for a while. I just put it down to have a look.

[76:49]

I just put it down, because I knew from Dieter that he was going to say some instructive words. I just put it down. We will hear it now. Very relaxing. I have to say, I have difficulties with this intensity and the talking at the same time. There is a barrier for me that I can't actually overcome. And that was, for me, a tension. Then it built up a tension in me. Yes, so I can't talk about experiences now. in such a way.

[77:51]

I like to hear it, it's helpful for me, but that's not what I want to talk about now. And what is really very helpful for me is simply with the question or with this statement that inanimate things, the Dharma preaching, with which I can, the idea is a great support for me. But I can't go beyond that, beyond that point. So for me that would be to shake it away, or something like that, what is in question for me now. I'm just thinking of another example, because you just mentioned it, Christine.

[79:21]

When we were in Japan, at this Roshi, where we came in for dinner, there was a Zen temple and a beautiful garden in front of it, and a famous bell, one of the oldest bells. And it was a very happy meal. There was plenty of beer and other things too. And then at some point this Roger jumped up and said, then we all had to run out onto the terrace. And then a monk rang this bell. And in this garden, I don't know if it was a pure moss garden, there was an ancient, wrinkled beech tree, which had already been trampled down many times. It was the only one in this garden. There was only mowing, only this tree and this huge bell. And there was only one knock on this bell. And I felt so wrong and so intense in that moment that I still remember how we were all sitting on that staircase and the tears were running down my eyes, just by listening to it.

[80:35]

And then Roshi turned around and said, And then we sat in it again and we drank beer again. It was really great how he did it. This changing of different worlds, in and out, nothing special. What would have happened if he had talked about it? Exactly. There is nothing to say about it, but it was clear why he did it. I think he just wanted to let us feel it, which certainly has a similar effect on him. To talk about the small of the bell is certainly not a particularly helpful thing, but we are now talking about experiences that are not there at the moment.

[82:22]

Who says that? Ich meine auch, und ich möchte es nicht wegwischen, wenn Beate über ihre Experimenten mit der Straße spricht. Wo zieht die Straße hierher? I don't know what ... For me, speaking and hearing are first and foremost something that concerns the contact between people, and that's what I talked about earlier.

[83:48]

And today we experienced something like that. What I would like to add to your question, which you have thrown into the new round, is that for me listening is also very deep with feeling. Listening is to develop feelings. Words also touch me. how the sound of the bell to turn touches me, how to turn words off. And this is a form of touching, how words can touch.

[84:59]

For me, this is a form of practice, simply to spread this reason, to spread it. For me, I do not try to grasp the emptiness at the same time, but rather to see how this can be spread. For me it's also an experiment. I feel a kind of tension in me. When experiences are directed at me, I immediately check what's going on in me. But I still see it as a bit of nonsense, and it's also wrong for a situation like this.

[86:21]

But I would at least wish, like with chanting, that something arises with each other, that opens up a space for as many participants as possible, where you can, as always, listen or speak. I don't know if that's possible or not. I don't know either. Only Roshi should talk about it. And we sit there and listen mainly. We should only obey. and rather not talk about things. I was convinced of that for a while. I got a recommendation from a teacher that you should rather not talk about it. Roshi also told me that I should not talk about certain experiences, because the moment you go into words, something is wrapped up again.

[87:23]

Nevertheless, I feel a need to find a language and to speak with each other. I feel there is a gap between the moment when Roshi speaks and my daily life, where I speak about all sorts of things. think about it, or have two conversations. I think it would be nice to have a chance to do something like that in a group. I don't know if there are any experiences like that. How you can do that is still unclear to me. Because the way I've had it in conversations so far, when topics were discussed, whether it's school, university or a circle of friends, I have the feeling that it can't go that way. I don't want it that way. I have the feeling that it doesn't work that way.

[88:28]

I mean, I love seminars. What I'm saying is not that this would be the real support or something. That's just my experience now. I think it's very good what we're doing here. I like it. But still I have total problems with it now. I just feel that I can't get in there. I don't know why. But I think it's good to do it. I want to find out why it's like that. Why I can't talk about it or why I want to. I mean, how can one think otherwise?

[89:37]

My problem with this form of instruction is that everything becomes so insanely difficult. That's exactly what I was thinking at the time, that I was wondering why it was so difficult. Yes, that's exactly what I was thinking at the time, that I was wondering why it was so difficult. I mean, the experiences themselves are not oppressive, I just couldn't get into it. I wanted to get into it from the front. I wanted to get out of it. I find it so impressive. I find it very exciting at the same time. But I also thought, why is it so difficult? Why is he swinging like that? Because that's not really necessary. I'm so tired, so infinitely tired. Not only because of that, but also because of that. I'm already two months into the seminar and also because of my tiredness.

[90:43]

But then something else happens. I don't know. I also think that we start too big. I would have started today directly with the unnameable. I don't know, maybe we can start a little easier. The last time it was like that, it was somehow very concrete. I don't know, but in any case it was as easy as possible. Maybe we can do that next time. I don't know which one, but somehow banal, easy to find a start. What we try to make difficult and complicated is actually to experience the children every day. And to just call them that every day. Maybe it's because I don't have a family now.

[91:33]

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