But you seem all right today. We shall see. So, first we have to look, I think, with typical analysis, Buddhist analysis, at the question. So we have to ask what body and mind is dropped? This is the same really teaching of the Heart Sutra. What body and mind is emptiness? And the body which you drop is the body of the five elements. And the mind which you drop is the mind of the five skandhas and the eight vijnanas.

[01:01]

So what do you have once you've dropped these bodies and minds, this body and mind, what do you have? You have the Dharmakaya. And from the Dharmakaya then you can have the birth of the Sambhogakaya and Nirmana bodies. Now, what you also have is a I asked, what continues when you drop body and mind?

[02:22]

And one answer to that is a brightness and clarity, a kind of timeless identity, I don't know what to call it, continues. Now, if we look a little more at practice and not at the conception behind this, we have Nagarjuna or Dogen's use of Nagarjuna's statement in... in the Genjo Koan that firewood is firewood, ashes are ashes. And firewood is not the past of ashes. And I should try to give you some sense of this.

[03:46]

One example I've used before is, pig is not the past of pork. I mean, of course, you can't have pork without a pig. But in the way Dogen's expressing it in Nagarjuna, pig has its own past, present and future. And pork has its own past, present and future. And pork is human history. inflicted on unwilling pigs. Well, I mean, presumably unwilling. We haven't asked for that. Now, I think you can understand that. In that sense, it's a more complex sense of causation than just firewood leads to fire and ashes or firewood leads to ashes and pigs lead to pork.

[05:09]

A forest that is burned up has still a history in the birds and insects and what happens next. It's not contained just in the firewood. Now, thinking of Janis over there makes me think of my daughter Sally, who's now 31. And Janis over there reminds me of my daughter Sally, who is now 32.

[06:16]

And when she was very little, and I have already told some of you the story, she once refused to do something that Virginia and I asked her to do. She was about maybe three years old or so. And I said, you better do this. Virginia and I made you. You belong to us. She said, it's too late now. I belong to me. So firewood belongs to firewood, ashes belong to ashes. Each thing has its own stage. And to think that Janis is only Gertz and Monika is to diminish Janis.

[07:17]

We give you a lot of credit though. But so this dropping body and mind and this use of firewood Nash idea is to be able to see everything in its own stage as belonging to itself. This is also the sense of miraculously born. Or the idea in chaos theory and so forth of emergent properties. So to see that each situation has an own organizing quality, it becomes something of itself that you can't simply explain by previous causation or what comes next.

[08:52]

So it's partly dropping out of previous causation. Dogen identifies dropping mind and body not just with a kind of experience you might have in zazen, but with the profound enlightenment itself which makes a Buddha. So in this sense it enters the realm also of the mythological. I don't mean the mythological like was Maitreya the founder of Yogacara. But I mean the possible mythological dimensions of our own life.

[10:07]

I mean some people say, I've heard Christian teachers say that Jesus, the cross, Jesus on the cross emptied himself into the Christ. Now, again, I don't know much about Christian theology, but there's this sense of the hero or the shero. emptying themselves or giving themselves over at the point where they're reborn. Where you're willing to shed your skin or step out of your life

[11:08]

And let yourself be reborn in the circumstances. And this is, in mythology, this is when the hero or shero is born because they give themselves to the circumstances of their community, their family, and so forth. So it's not just that you have repackaged mind and body in the vijnanas and the elements and the skandhas. But you have the personal courage and character to allow yourself to be reborn in your own society and the conditions of your own life.

[12:27]

So he means to drop mind and body in every sense, including to be reborn as a bodhisattva. Which in some ways is as simple a decision as, I'm going to do this practice. And enter into a faith in the practice and allow the practice to be your womb. Now, this is the sense that is expressed in various ways of ashes and firewood and the bell and the sound. Oh, we have this koan, which I mentioned, of Nan Yue.

[13:56]

I think I said Nan Yuan, but it's Nan Yue. Anyway, Nan Yue, who was a disciple of the Sixth Patriarch, And Nanyue was the teacher of Matsu. And Dogen somehow rearranges the story and decides that Matsu was already a realized person when this story occurred. Dogen felt quite free to adjust things to his own understanding.

[14:57]

But in any case, whether Matsu was a realized arhat or bodhisattva at the time or not, at least he was in his hermitage on the grounds, I guess, of Nanyue's temple. So again, I want to look at this story with you briefly. And so I would like to watch this story with you again. It's definitely one of Dogen's most favorite stories. And it's one Tsukiroshi, I think it's the koan Tsukiroshi, told us over and over again. Every third lecture we'd hear this koan here. So I felt most of the time like a piece of tile that was insufficiently rubbed. But since, and I didn't feel much like a mirror or a jewel.

[16:16]

But Sugerish used to say, when a tile becomes a tile, Buddha becomes Buddha. So I concentrated on being a tile. So anyway, Matsu is doing Zazen most of each day. And Nanue comes to his hermitage and says, what are you doing? And Nanue comes to his hermitage and says, what are you doing? And I'm practicing zazen. What's it look like? What are you doing that for? I'm figuring to make a Buddha. So he picks up a piece of tile and stands. Rubbing it in.

[17:17]

You have to do that. Part of your translation. See, they're trying to take care of her. Anyway, he said, what are you doing? He says, I'm making a mirror, a jewel. He says, you can't turn a tile into a mirror. And he says, well, you can't make a Buddha by doing zazen. So he says, well, what should I do? Of course, Dogen analyzes every, what should I do?

[18:27]

He analyzes each word, what and should and I and do and so forth. Yeah. So, Mats Nanyoi says, if you have an ox or a horse and a cart, and the horse won't go, what do you do? Do you beat the cart or do you beat the horse? And Matsu doesn't say anything. Now that's also presented Matsu didn't know what to say. So, Dogen of course likes to get carried away.

[19:34]

And so he starts a whole number about sometimes you beat, in ordinary life you beat the ox, but in Buddhism sometimes you beat the cart. And sometimes you beat the cart with a horse with a whip or with a fist. And sometimes the fist beats the fist. But what do we have here? If you just look at the structure of these two things, you're talking about causation. The first is the causation of turning a tile into a mirror.

[20:43]

Or a person into a Buddha. Or an unenlightened person into an enlightened person. And obviously, There's not a simple causation there. So then Nanyue offers him another kind of causation that seems more possible. Do you beat the horse or do you beat the cart? But also this doesn't make any sense either. So what the koan is asking you to do is make a left turn out of causation.

[21:48]

Or a right turn, if you like, anyway. Instead of being in the path of causation, you turn out of it. And that's the dropping of body and mind. As Veland said the other day, yesterday. Now, What I'd like to say is that, what I said in the beginning, is that sometimes this recognition of this stepping outside of causation, you feel something different.

[23:10]

You don't feel pushed by the world and time into the next moment. And what I would like to say once again, and what I have already said, if you really come out of this chain of causes, you simply feel something different. You no longer have the feeling that you are really pushing the world and time into the next moment. You feel an ease, a relaxation of mind and body in a very deep way. An ease overtakes you. Sometimes I, trying to give you a feeling for it, I could say it's a love space. I mean, in our usual mind and body, we only enter it when we fall into it, if we fall in love.

[24:15]

But you don't, that's using circumstances and, you know, When you have to stop and create someone like Yanis, you have to enter another realm, which we don't imagine you live in. We get forced into it by falling in love or athletics or something. But this space which we can fall into is also where everything feels like it's the center. This teaching of Dogen's, the way he's emphasizing dropping body and mind, is not that it's an occasional experience, but it's where you can live.

[25:34]

It's not exactly the same as falling in love, but it's a kind of love space or compassion space where you feel profoundly free and connected at the same time. And practice means the courage to imagine this is actually possible. But not to seek it because it doesn't come from ordinary causation. But you accept it as a kind of readiness in yourself. And part of it is the sense of being able to shift from a causation which pushes you along And I'm laughing about something because Buddhism has such a funny way of talking about things.

[27:27]

So I'll just tell you this as a little aside. It's called things like the superimpositions of a barren woman's son's ears. The superimpositions, a superimposition is something that's imposed on you from above. A superimposition. Of a barren woman's sons. Barren like barren poopy? No. Barren like a woman who doesn't have a child, who can't have a child. Who doesn't have such good fun, you know?

[28:37]

It makes me think of the time I was in the middle of the night studying in college and I read that Freud said, that women lived at the center of the household because men, if there was a fire, had an uncontrollable urge to stand up and pee on it. That was a... And since this was much harder for women to do, women had to stay home and tend the fire. It's in civilization.

[29:46]

It's in civilization and its discontents. I remember reading that. Maybe I imagined it. I think it's there. I read it. I could not believe it. I said, I came all the way to college to read this kind of... Maybe I've got it all mixed up. But anyway, I laughed for an hour. It's true. So anyway, one of the ideas in Buddhism is the non-existence of a barren woman's child. Sorry.

[31:06]

Anyway, if you have... Once you've accepted that there's no such thing as the child of a barren woman, you don't worry about his or her ears and things so forth. But the idea in Buddhism is that we accept certain things don't exist But we actually live as if they did exist. These are called the superimpositions of things that don't exist.

[32:07]

So dropping body and mind also means dropping things like that. So again, I think the teaching here is that this is not just an experience, but you can recognize that this is where you can live. It can be the continuity of mind. And you can live there without cutting yourself off from other people and without harming anyone. So then the last thing I'd like to say is how do you achieve the body and mind of the five elements, skandhas and vijnanas?

[33:35]

And of course that's the practice of mindfulness. Of weaving mind and body and breath together. And understanding certain practices like resting in the mind before thought arises. and also resting in the mind that doesn't substantiate. And these are practices that you're all somewhat familiar with. And they're all realizable practices. And through these practices you develop a mind, body and phenomenal world that settle together in what I call a visceral cohesiveness.

[34:51]

And you feel with a surety exactly where you are, what you are. Okay, that's enough for now. So why don't we take a break? And then, although this room's a little tight, I'd like you to break up into five or six groups after a break. And maybe you can imagine you're just in a crowded, busy restaurant and you're trying to have a conversation with friends in one corner.

[35:58]

And I'd like you to have some discussion of these five elements and dropping body and mind. And unless I can get Ulrike to give us a little talk to help me out about something. And sometime this afternoon I will speak, as I said, about the structure of the path, or at least one way to look at the structure of the path. Okay. And then you can put something in for the canon in Creston, the figure.

[37:12]

Do you have anything you'd like to bring into the... to me and to everyone from your discussion? Yes, please. With the help of my group, I found that usually I'm living in a and the five elements help me to loosen up and beat this body.

[38:31]

I enter a stream or a pool of the five elements. Maybe this loosening up is also a possibility of dropping the body. And another question was, how can I... Maybe you should just say that in German so far, because you can give the lecture this afternoon. Okay, yes. What can I do in my usual circumstances to lift the habitual body and enter the pool? And somebody said, you just have to do unusual things. And that was it. So with the help of my group, I found out that I normally live in an interoperable body and that these five elements help us to open up this internal body and maybe leave it there and enter a stream or a pool in which these elements move and mix with each other.

[39:56]

And maybe this entry into the pool can also lead to the fact that you let go of the body at all. Yes. When she says, leaving the body, I ask you, what is the true Buddha body? This was something you discovered in your group, this question.

[41:01]

Is this your answer? I'm here. Yes. From my circle, I experienced that maybe letting go of structures, and this leads me to a question I have to you, letting go of structures, do I fall into new structures? Yeah, sometimes, of course.

[42:13]

But with good practice and good teacher and so forth... Maybe it won't happen. But some structures are better than others. If you fall into the vijnanas, that's better than falling into habitual add-ons. Okay. But I don't want to answer questions. I want to think about what you feel about what you say. So anybody else have something to... Yes. I have the feeling that in some ways the abandonment of body and mind has more to do with a decision.

[43:22]

That you simply have to decide to do this as through an exercise now, to get there. Yeah, I have the feeling, actually more the feeling that dropping body and mind has more to do with just a decision. It's a decision that you're going to do it and then just it's simple practices. Yeah. What I liked very much in our group was to exchange ideas. And for me, what I have learned from you, to pass on a little bit, in my words, and certain points, like, for example, the Skandas, or also the four elements that you talked about, that we tried to put them into our own words and that, yes,

[44:23]

It was very nice for me in our group was to sort of go over what you have said in my own words and that we all did this and try to express feelings. Also I had how I understand the skandhas and the vijnanas in my own words. That was very nice. Yes, and to give a little bit from my own experience. I wish I could have been in your group and had my German ears on. In our group we had actually two Two lines are going on, two themes. One was whether it's important to have a special environment for practicing, or whether you need special situations to do it, or it's not so important.

[45:39]

And the other discussion was more or less, it's more important to, or is it allowed to have an intellectual view to things? And the other side stressed more to see the practical side of it. And this side, a little bit in a male perspective, Male competition? Yes, sir. Oh! In this day and age, I'm between you and Neil? No. In our group there were two discussions. The first one was how important it is to build a calm or, let's say, practice-enhancing environment and what importance that has.

[46:47]

And we came to the conclusion that it is cheaper. just to apply it to the easier points in my own life and to build up from there and not to change the environment too much. And the second side was more of a discussion whether it is more important now or whether it is allowed, so to speak, to look at the intellectual side, the separation, the logical, or whether it is cheaper now to simply fulfill it. And that gives me a little bit in a discussion, maybe too much, but in a discussion. From my side, I am very sensitive, I have it in full. Von meiner Seite, ich bin sehr sensibel, habe ich es so empfohlen.

[47:54]

Andere würden es sagen, es war nur ein Riegel. I like this competition. Wettkampf, das habe ich jetzt nicht ganz verstanden. Was, Wettkampf? I imagine this conversation, one man says, I dropped my body and mine first. LAUGHTER And the other one says, no, you didn't. And the women say, we've already dropped our bodies. I'm just imagining a conversation where two men are talking and one says, I let go of my body and mind first.

[48:57]

And the other says, no, you didn't. And the whole time the women have already done that anyway. So, yeah? Yes? I wanted to say that I find it very nice to hear about the elements of the body, so that one can discover and explore one's own body, and to take that into account. That, I think, is a thing that has become clear to me. That was nice of you. Thank you very much. I want to say thank you because the access you gave me is new to me through the five elements. And I realized in the group that it's a very helpful approach for me to actually get to know my body better and into my body.

[49:59]

And thanks. You're welcome. Übung von was? I didn't think that the idea of such a big stone would be included. And that from the idea, so to speak, then the realization comes and less from the practice. So practice in the sense that you don't imagine yourself doing it, so you don't imagine it, but just try to go there.

[51:07]

I mean for me it's a kind of realization that actually the image you gave us of the breath body and weaving the breath body into this practice with the elements and so forth, that the image alone is for me more an access to the realization than the practices themselves. It's like I feel when I do two practices then I should almost like drop images. Can I? Yes. In the discussion our group was helpful for me to see how other people work with things you say Hello, Hans. Because very often I ask myself, how can I work with this? And sitting here, I've found people who ask, how can I work with the elements, with the people who gave me some feeling about it?

[52:18]

And there's a lot of different kinds of work. Mm-hmm. I found it very enjoyable to discuss with the people from our group how to deal with the things that are said here, for example with the elements, how to deal with them. When I ask myself, how can I deal with it? So when I sit there and count my notes, how can I do that? And the different opinions. Yes. Fallen lassen, nämlich ohne Unterzeichnungen, ohne Überlegungen geschieden.

[53:48]

Dass es aus Knastenzimmer auch Silberfieber ist. Im Englischen gibt es das ja nicht. Also, dass wir unter Vorbereitung treffen können, aber dass das Jobbing dann aus sich heraus bestimmte Werte einführt. Das ist das große Problem. Und man fragt sich, wie können wir denn unsere schwierigen Gedanken, unsere körperlichen Probleme fallen lassen? Also, wir als Akteure selbst, da hätte ich es dann müssen. Ich glaube, genau das ist so bei der Gruppe. In my group, we talked about it when we try to do this dropping body and mind. I mean, who is doing it? Who is making the decision? And it's like a feeling we are almost just the actors of our own... the doers, and then how does the doer then drop the body and mind?

[54:51]

I mean, I have to let drop body and mind. That's my error. I understand. Anyone else? Yes It was a very beautiful experience. There were different opinions, different expressions, where I could hear less about the content, [...] I had a very nice experience in the group.

[55:57]

We all talked and it's what were different opinions and I listened to them all and I noticed it's different opinions but also I could really put myself into each what each person said and was totally familiar and was like a part of me. And then when I said something, I also felt, well, I'm saying this, but also it's really not from me or something. So it belongs to all of us. So that was very nice. Well, you know, I When I talk about something like this, if I talk about it at Crestone, I feel completely comfortable and drawn into practicing and teaching. And I tell you this often, but I have to confess again, I feel a little concerned in situations like this where we come together for a weekend.

[56:59]

I say so much that maybe I'm forcing something a little. Und ich sage das zwar oft, aber ich möchte es noch einmal sagen. Hin und wieder habe ich dann doch wieder Bedenken, ob das wirklich richtig und angemessen für euch ist, wenn ich in so einer kurzen Zeit wie an solch einem Wochenende über so viele Dinge spreche. But I'm completely impressed by how well you understand. In several ways. In one way, this discussion we've been having over some years has developed enough so you know what I'm talking about when we say, you know, to the mind of the Vijnanas or Skandhas and so forth.

[58:10]

To know that, to have a feeling for that, that's a big thing. That's a lot. And to understand, really, for us to have understood enough to see that you can the experience of the body. So it's less separate from, more continuous with the body of the world. That's a lot to imagine. I mean, I'm grateful that we've gotten this far.

[59:12]

And also, I mean, what we have here is what I'd call the sangha with whom we share the practice. And there's, of course, the practicality of a kind of permission and support that we get by seeing other people share or misunderstand or trying to understand these things. And through that two things happen. One is in each of you an image of the practice, a view of the practice forms. And within the group, an image of the practice forms which sort of floats around and settles here and settles there.

[60:39]

But it's a image or attitude that actually the group forms together. We could say it's a kind of bodhisattva body or metta body that we share to various degrees. Now, in Buddhism there's a complex relationship between views and attitudes. And what you're speaking about more is a certain kind of attitude. that's in between more basic views that are true and an attitude which you develop.

[61:50]

And I think what you pointed out is quite right, is that your practice develops from an attitude That's not a thought, it's an attitude that works as a force in you. So if you do the practice, the practice isn't so effective. But if you deepen this attitude or hold or have faith in this attitude, there's various ones that inform practice.

[62:55]

Then the attitude does the practice, not you. And so you do the practices, but you let the attitude teach you, rather than you doing it. It's like at a certain stage in practice, which I've tried to suggest and bring you to in the seminar, this cohesiveness of mind, body and phenomenal world. At that point, the posture itself begins to teach you. And at that point is, you know, what really is meant by just sitting or shikantaza.

[64:17]

As you just sit down in this cohesiveness and teaching starts to flow, the understanding starts to flow in you. So this is a way how we get out of the doer. Rather, we have a certain attitude that we hold or image, and it begins to, in its own subtlety, discover things. It's a great thing. I mean, I feel it's a great thing if you really have a sense that you can actually reconfigure how you experience your own body. And discover in a deeper way how your body and the world are continuous flow both ways.

[65:20]

So let's have lunch. Thank you for the whoever did it. Thank you for the flowers. You know, in Crestone, some of you have been there, but the town is basically a deer, a dog, and a TV dish. A TV dish. Actually, there's three or four dogs and about 100 deer. four or five TV dishes.

[66:40]

And there's a little shop. You can get gasoline, sort of, and some canned goods, and rent some films. And there's a flower shop. And if there wasn't one, we'd have to create one. Because we have flowers on the altar and all around. My main expense, since I don't have rent, is flowers from my room. Do you have a story you'd like to tell us? Would be willing to tell us if I translate for you?

[67:57]

Hiroshi has already called me from Creston and said, I would like you to hold a small lecture at the next seminar. First of all, the air was gone and he asked, how long? He said, 30 or 40 minutes. I thought, impossible. So we came up with a lot of good reasons why this is a very stupid idea. Yes, he listened to it and didn't say much. And I thought I had convinced him. And yes, this morning he started again. One should not necessarily prepare for such events, and I am not prepared either.

[69:19]

I would not have thought that the attempt to let go of something like body and mind really catapulted one into the experience. It is something completely different than when you talk to your friends or you sit in front of a few people and teach them something or explain something and you have some facts in your hand, but suddenly to sit there and someone says to you, say something, you really want to run out of your skin. And I wish each and every one of you could sit at my place at the moment.

[70:20]

I think you all have a lot to say and a lot that is worth listening to. And I will now simply go into the feeling that Roshi spoke of, let go of the feeling of body and mind and go into such a continuum that simply connects me very much with the world and very much with you. And that helps me at the moment when I'm sitting here, that I can still perceive a certain firmness in me and that I can also feel this firmness in you. I feel my heart beating and then I can also feel your heart beating. This is very nice.

[71:22]

This is really a completely different experience from practice. And it belongs to our practice that we listen to each other and that we also speak to each other. And I have already sat in so many lectures by Dharma teachers and Dharma teachers and I have always somehow considered it to be self-evident how calm they are and that they have something to say and that they have something to say to me. Yes, and sometimes I was also critical or dissatisfied or did not get what I had hoped for. But you really have to give up a bit and let go of body and mind when you sit on such a place.

[72:31]

and you have to let go of the concepts that you have of yourself, that you would like to say something interesting, that you would like to have, basically, that the people who listen to you are also attached to you at that moment, the body perception changes, And it's really quite different from the few lectures that I once held at the university, where you just have a pile of papers in your hand and your head full of all sorts of things. And as Rosche has already said, he asked me this time to make some suggestions about what he should teach and speak this year and to make the titles.

[73:55]

And it wasn't that easy for me. Because how do you make a title for a seminar? Not even if you hold it yourself. I just knew intuitively that it somehow had to come from my practice. And if it comes from my practice, then it also comes from your practice and then it also comes from Roshi's practice. And then it is not something set up, something conceptual or something intellectual. And I spent the last four months alone in Schriesheim. And it was not something I had planned, it just happened. And it was also very good for me, because at that time I really had time for certain topics of life.

[74:57]

who just keep coming to me again and again, in periodic intervals, to really approach them. And of course the first question arises, how do I deal with such a question that my life always asks me, how do I deal with it? And I deal with this question differently, for example, when I work, when I travel, when I am traveling with Roshi and when I am in Creston, than when I am alone in my environment, where I am still very rooted and have friends and family. And for me it was a very intense time of retreat and, as I said, also a discussion with these topics. And six or seven years ago I had an intense phase where I worked very hard on this sentence or koan. At that time I didn't even know what koan work was.

[76:03]

Yes, to allow truth is more important than to know something. And this sentence came up again very strongly in me. because I was also helpless in the situation in which I was. How do I make decisions? Do I want to make decisions? Do I expect this from the time? And then the word permission appeared again for me. And then it just turned into letting go of body and mind. And I started working with this sentence. And why was it suddenly important to let go of the topic of body and mind? Well, I came into contact with a burning desire within me to want to purify myself.

[77:13]

Yes, to want to stretch myself, to want to strip away something old, to let go of something. Not only what I could call my Western identity, but I think the desire has also developed to let go of what I have developed through practice. So maybe such a new identity or over-identity. I think it is also a danger, if you practice longer, that you put something very comfortable at this old place. Through meditation you learn certain skills, you become calmer, you know how to deal better with stress, But on the other hand, I had at least the experience that I had a very good crutch there and suddenly just the feeling of getting out.

[78:14]

I want to get out of there, just the question of how. And I really liked what Christine said from her group. Yes, how do you do that? You do something unusual. And that's where I really started in that time. I did things again, somehow very unusual. So for you maybe not at all unusual, but for me it was somehow new experiences again. And I suddenly realized how much courage require small things that you do outside of your normal life frame or your normal course on which you are.

[79:16]

To do small things that somehow fall out. How much courage does that require? But I also noticed how courageous it can be if you dare to be courageous. And what you said in our group today, it made you so beautiful, because it also encouraged me a bit. So the, what's your name again? Ute. Ute told me, That she is also in a recovery phase in her life and that she is doing things for which she does not get much support from her environment. That she is doing things for which she does not get much support from her environment. and a good income and maybe also the relationship in which one is, to change and to risk something.

[80:24]

But you have radiated so much joy and so much confidence. I thought, great. And then I came here with all this pre-work or all these thoughts and this whole process. And it was really very nice for me to sit next to Roshi and translate and listen to him. Because it was really kind of implanted in me. And I was completely fascinated again how he manages to bring things to the point. And I then noticed, looking back, how I basically also worked on the things without actually knowing what it is and how far it has something to do with it.

[81:27]

So this first question from him, I think it was already Friday evening, really knocked me over. Yes, what goes on when I give up body and spirit? What goes on? And I think something very important that continues and also such a continuum that we can trust is really this teacher-student relationship. It touches me very much to address this, because this is a relationship that we also have. And there are also other spiritual teachers in my life.

[82:29]

Maybe I should say there were, I don't know. In any case, one life topic or such a process that I was also involved in in the last few months was my relationship to my teacher, Mrs. Tweedy. to feel through and to go through. And now I want to tell you a little bit more about that. And that also has a lot to do with a woman here that I also feel very connected to, Elke. I think it was 1985 when it started and I was in a pretty difficult phase.

[83:29]

I was pretty unhappy and Elke wasn't the kind of person I could go to and use her as a wall of complaint. Yes, the elk then found in a bookstore a book where the title addressed her and she thought of me. And the title was like a phoenix out of the ashes. And this is a short version of the spiritual diary of Mrs. Tweedy, Irina Tweedy. And I brought the book to me and I read it all through in the night. And then a very small wish arose. I have to get to know this woman. I just have to get to know her. But no one knew if she was still alive.

[84:30]

It only said that she was very old. But the book was already in the edition of 1981 or 1979. It could have been that she was no longer alive. Well, how do you find someone? When a book has been mentioned, how do you find someone like that? I then wrote to the publisher, I listened, I inquired, nobody knew anything. The publisher never answered. I think I called again at some point. Then they said, yes, we have a post office, so we can't give out your personal address at all. Then the following happened. A friend of mine in Munich had a very difficult pregnancy and had to stay in the hospital all the time. So I decided to visit her and spend some time with her. Of course, I always flew out of the hospital in the evening. And I was sitting in Munich, didn't know what to do in the evening, and then a woman came up to me, whom I knew from India.

[85:37]

And that's why I'm telling it like this, because these little stones, these little events, which lead to such a course change in life, They are so important, they are sometimes more important than the product or what comes out of it and to perceive them and to follow this intuition. I think that has something to do with letting go of body and mind. To catch up these moments. I called her. And she was also there, she is usually almost never there, she said to me immediately, you have an incredible luck. We met and one of her second or third sentences was to me. Do you know Ms. Twiti? And I thought to myself, That's impossible.

[86:38]

Why does she ask me that? Then I say, no, but I really want to get to know her. And I've been trying for weeks to make contact with her. Then she says, oh, I can arrange that. My sister is her secretary. And well, I came back and immediately called this woman and immediately drove there for her. And I will never forget it. I was so excited. I went to this little brick house in a very poor area in North East London, where you normally never get there as a tourist. With the subway, which is then sometimes overground, you drive through an area that I basically only know from English feature films before the Second World War. And very poor people. I then had another coffee. In such a small bar. The people there looked at me very strangely.

[87:41]

What are they doing in the area? And then I went into this little house. And there was a room. There was a chair in front of it. And a lot of people around. I tell you, you probably think that there is little space. But when you were at Frau Tüdi, there would be in the room, I think, so probably again so many people, even more, would have fit in there. And there she sat, this really beautiful woman with pale white hair. I will never forget these blue eyes. And I stood there and It was kind of all gone that I wanted to ask. You probably know the feeling. The work in this group is really very deep and very exciting. because not much happens. Nobody can say exactly what's going on.

[88:43]

So you sit together and Fr. Tvidi asks at some point, how are you? What is your husband doing? Or how is the work going? And what is the baby doing? And yes, who was sick? Are you feeling better again? And then it starts so slowly. And at some point She lies back in her chair and closes her eyes, and then all of them find a place that is halfway comfortable, and then she makes this wonderful introduction to meditation, which I will never forget. She said, somehow, maybe I will forget it, but it was a feeling of Yes, it's totally fine who you are, where you are, and God or the beloved, the Sufis talk a lot about the beloved, will totally condemn you.

[89:48]

And apart from that, she doesn't give any further instructions, and that takes a while, and at some point she opens her eyes and says, Has someone put on some tea water? And then you wander around as far as you can into the kitchen and drink tea, and then dreams are told. And she waved at me then, because she noticed that I was new in such a small next room, and... She looked at me and I immediately started to cry. I said to her, I am so unhappy. But I am so happy that I found her. That is such a miracle for me. I will never forget it. She took my head and put it in her lap. Everything was fine.

[90:57]

And then I went there again and again for a while, also with Elke. And she was completely different to me every time. So when I somehow had the expectation that this motherly thing that I was allowed to take, I was still missing a lot. Ms. Twidi became everything to me. She became a strict mother, she became a retreating mother, she became a teacher, she was sometimes very harsh and rude to me, she didn't even smile at me when I came. There were all these discussions in the group, You rubbed each other, you sometimes had a bad feeling with certain people, so it got really tough for a while. But what I know today is that at this time I really made the decision to practice.

[92:07]

I didn't know exactly in what form, but that was the point where I really knew that I couldn't go back anymore. That will be something very, very important. Yes, and at some point she had the great luck that a publisher in America really wanted to publish her full version of her diary. And she then put together a small group to accompany her there, to go there, because she was supposed to hold a few lectures there. And then she asked me if I wanted to go with her, and of course I wanted to. And I said, it's going to be a bit difficult, because at that time I had taught at the school, I can only do that in summer holidays. And he said, no problem, that's exactly what it is. At that time I booked my flight and then flew from London to Los Angeles and flew to London to join the group. I got there very quickly.

[93:09]

excited and full of travel fever and anticipation. And I thought somehow strange somehow this does not look like someone would leave here. Then Mrs. Twidi said, yes, my love, I have changed my plans. I'll do it next year. Then I said, it's not a problem at all, Mrs. Twieden, because, well, this is a charter flight, but I don't care if the ticket falls. So the main thing is, I'm here now and I have six weeks that I can stay here in London now. Then she said, you're going to Los Angeles. I said, what do you mean, please? And it is well known that so many teachers sometimes give you such strange assignments. I thought, oh my God, that would hopefully not be one of them. I really begged and begged to avoid them. I tried everything, oppression, crying. I just said, Mrs. Tweedy, if I can't stay with you for the next six weeks, I can only have so much time again in the next year because of my job.

[94:24]

No, you drive. And from that point on she didn't care about me anymore. The next morning I took my bag out of the bed and went to Los Angeles by plane. And I tell you, it was terrible, especially Los Angeles. I didn't know any people in Los Angeles, I was really afraid to dare to go to the city from the airport. Well, and then I have to say, I fell in love with a girlfriend again. who, I knew, had moved to Carmel Valley. And now you can already guess how the story continues. Carmel Valley is practically the last place in front of Richard's old monastery, Tassajara. And this friend had already noticed that I was quite desperate, because I didn't want to be there at all, and she had already contacted us at the weekend.

[95:29]

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