In a book about the fox koan, of Bai Jiang's fox koan, some of his notes are in here. It's on the back of a common reading list. Some of his notes about Bai Jiang. Anybody want this? Yeah. Yeah. You found an interesting part about the fox being an authentic insider or a rogue outsider? Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, interesting. I've said before, and it would be nice to repeat, that in the Genjo Kahn it says something like, if we give close attention to all our activities, it will become clear that nothing whatsoever has an abiding self.

[01:45]

If we give close attention to all our activities, we will forget the self. We can give close attention to all our activities. We will forget the self and be enlightened by all things. I think in the character there is, it could be translated as, you know, which is translated as all our activities. Another translation is if you return to where, if you practice intimately and return to where you are it will become clear, right? I think the character there is literally Daily Plum. I think so. Daily Plum. Daily Plum. Yeah.

[02:48]

Every morning I have a plum. Umaboshi. Umaboshi before Zazen. I do that partly out of nostalgia of being here at Tassajara with Suzuki Roshi at one time. And he used to take umeboshi and eat umeboshi and then put the plum in the green tea and then drink green tea. Daily plum, daily action. Close attention to all your daily actions. It would become clear nothing has . This is kind of like... This isn't the same in some senses as right view that there is results of karma. A little bit different statement. It's more saying, if you study karma, you will be enlightened. If you study karma and maybe listen to the teaching that karma has effects, that might be part of your study.

[04:03]

You will be enlightened by all things. Another thing which I'd like to say is that I feel that causation, both karmic and non-karmic, because karmic causation is a subset of causation, that causation and karmic causation are selfless. And causation, both karmic and non-karmic, are selflessness in action, or emptiness in action. So by studying karma you can realize, you can actually verify selflessness. and thereby verify being enlightened by all things. Someone said to me some time ago, he kind of made a vow to turn towards life.

[05:19]

And he made that vow because for some time he wasn't sure if he wanted to. He was thinking of turning away from life for a long time, because life was so difficult. And I said, well, I don't think it's really turning towards. I mean, it's fine that you made that decision, I'm glad you did, so that today I can say to you, I think the way is not turning towards or away from life, but being upright with it. being like Hamlet, you know. To be or not to be, that is the question. That's what he said in the early part of the play. To turn towards or away from this sometimes extremely difficult situation, that's the question. And Camus said, you know, the only real philosophical question is whether is suicide.

[06:24]

And that may be true, that's the question, but the way is being ready, which is what Hammett found at the end. Readiness is all. Being upright is all. In life, not turning away or towards. Clearly observe all your daily deeds and you will find the middle way. then you want to know how do you be upright. The law of causation does not tell you how to be upright. It tells you how uprightness arises, but doesn't tell you how there's no self in the process by which uprightness arises. People are sometimes upright. Read Hamlet.

[07:31]

How did he come to the place of How did he come to the place of readiness is all? He suffered the whole play up to that point. That's how he got there. The causation of the play brought him to that realization. He didn't get himself there. And there was no self in the readiness. And this is, you know, difficult that we can't control ourselves into being upright. We can't even control ourselves into being, turning away and towards. We can't control ourselves into making a vow to avoid life or to turn towards life. We can't control that. There's no controller in the causation. If you study causation, you'll see there's no controller. And some might say, well, how do we study? The way causation works is that study tends to promote study.

[08:33]

And non-study, unfortunately, tends towards non-study. That's the way causation usually works. The subtleties, however, yeah, we have a problem here, sound problem. The buzzing, can you take the buzzing away? I don't know why it's not out. Is this? 60 cycle. Okay, so how are we doing? It's just annoying, huh? The buzzing is annoying, right? Yeah. All right, how's that? That's good? Is that good? Okay. I was coming back anyway. Is Daniel in?

[09:35]

Daniel and Simon. Would you come up here, Daniel, son? Yeah. Too bad. Anyway... The other day during Choson, Reverend Kosho informed me that he's allergic to strawberries. And so I said, Strawberry feels forever. And then I got this feedback. So I went to Daniel and Simon, who was the pager, And maybe some other English people want to join you. Do you know this song? I'm English. I know you are.

[10:36]

You guys want to see? Listen, this is very good words we didn't know about. Are you serious? I'm serious. I'm sincere. I'm sincere. I sincerely request you to sing this. Do you know, right? Yeah. I sincerely request you to sing this. Let me take you down, cause I'm going to strawberry fields. Nothing is real, and nothing to get hung about. Strawberry fields forever Living is easy with eyes closed Just understanding what you see It's getting hard to see someone when it all wears out It doesn't matter much to me

[11:46]

Let me take you out, kill them, don't leave you. Swallow them, feed you. Nothing gets you. Nothing to get behind about. Strawberry fields forever. No one I think is in my tree. I mean, it must be high or low. That is, you can, you know, tune in, but it's all right. That is, I think it's not too bad. Let me take you down, cause I'm going to stop where he goes. Nothing is real, and nothing to get hung about. Strawberry fields forever Always now sometimes I think it's me But don't I know and it's a dream I think I know, I mean I guess but it's all wrong That is I think I disagree

[13:09]

Let me take you down as I'm going to Strawberry Fields And I think it's true I'm going to get hung up on Strawberry Fields forever Strawberry Fields forever Strawberry Fields forever Thank you. Thank you, Simon and Daniel, for helping us learn that. So, strawberry peels.

[14:21]

Guess what that is? Any guesses? I think it's, first of all, karma. You've got to study the karma. Then you can see the nirvana. So, yeah, so... We live — so again, I draw a big circle, an all-encompassing circle. Causation is all-encompassing. A subset or sub-circle within causation is karmic causation. Karma doesn't explain everything that happens to us or in the world But it's the part of causation that if you pay attention to you will realize nirvana. Usually people are looking at causation but they don't notice the causation that they're looking at.

[15:29]

They just think they're looking at solid things. If you start to see that you're looking at causation, practicing right view and so on, then there will be a change in your perspective. You'll still be in the realm of causation, of samsara, but you realize nirvana is in that same field. I can't stay in here with that. I'm in this already. No, it's not that we produce it. It's the speakers. How about you and the last black woman? Did you check every collective in the back and it looks like it pushed all the way in?

[16:55]

So did I talk? Let's see here, what did she say first? I guess first I'll say that so Buddhists' right view is that action has consequence, that there are realized beings that is rebirthed. These are claims that Buddha made. So these are claims that Buddha made at the beginning of his teaching about what right view is. And so I want to mention to you that I think that in this tradition the verification of claims is by three methods. First is direct experience.

[18:17]

Second is by indirect experience. Third is by testimony of reliable authority dash scripture. Yeah. Highest is direct experience. Next is indirect experience. And not exactly lowest, but the third recourse, which isn't necessary if the first two work, is scriptural theory. indirect experience mean my cognition? I'll say it again. I'll say it over again. Another way to say it is, the first way is by direct perception. Second way is by conceptual cognition. Third is by testimony of authorities.

[19:26]

Another way to say it is, first is by direct experience, direct perception, empirical observation. Second way is by reasoning, primarily by inference. And the third sentence before. Direct experience operates on particular experiences And in particular experiences, you're looking at what are called svalakshinas, or the own characteristics of things, the unique characteristics of things. In indirect experience, you're looking at general characteristics of things. So, for example, impermanent things are what you look at in direct experience. Like when you look at somebody's face, or a color, or a taste, or a smell, or even an idea.

[20:35]

Yeah, even an idea. You're looking at the fleeting particular event. It's a unique event. You're looking at that in direct perception. In conceptual cognition, or in inference, you're dealing with generalities, what are called semanyal options, general characteristics. Impermanent things can be studied and you can lead to the reasoned inference that things are impermanent. Impermanent or impermanence is not a direct perception. You can directly perceive impermanent things, but impermanence is a general characteristic of all impermanent things. Did you say you can or you cannot experience directly impermanence?

[21:38]

Impermanence is a general characteristic of things. It can be directly? No, it comes through reason. Oh, sorry. reasons based on direct experience, but it can deal with inference. And inference is a valid way. There can be invalid inference, too, but inference can be a valid form of cognition, and direct perception can be, too. And the third category is used for the most subtle levels of reality which are only available to an enlightened mind. Unenlightened minds can operate on the first two levels quite nicely and can develop towards the enlightened mind by those two means. But there are certain things which only an enlightened mind can see and one of them is certain aspects of the study we're talking about here, namely certain aspects of the law of causation only enlightened minds can see.

[22:52]

So in that case we hear the testimony of enlightened beings about what they were able to see and then we I see some hands raised, and I have quite a bit to present, but I can entertain some hands a little bit. Yes? I just have one question, which is that the third way to enlighten beings, their means are the first truth. Yeah. As a matter of fact, the Buddha, as maybe I already mentioned, the Buddha had direct perception of the subtle workings of karma. And then also he has reasoned inference about the subtle workings of karma. But he actually could see. He said he could see past lives of people. He could see how people do this, and then there's that consequence. He could see that in direct perception, and he also could make reasoned analysis and statements of laws based on direct perception.

[23:57]

And then those testimonies, those statements then are available in scriptures. So now I was going to bring up to you some scriptures, both from the Buddha and from the Zen tradition. These are scriptures. But I tell you this material with the understanding that using these scriptures and these testimonies is used for the most subtle level. And I want us to know that we don't want to disempower our own practice or other people's practice by citing scripture. Scripture says this, scripture says that. We do that in some cases in the tradition, but mostly only in the most subtle workings of karma and certain other very difficult things. For example, I told you that article that Carolyn gave me about the oceans in the New Yorker. at the end of the article, it says, it says, actions that might appear to be unrelated turn out sometimes to be intimately connected.

[25:13]

In between the apparent unrelated and the connected is vision. So how, you know, how our driving around, this example, how driving around in a car in the New Jersey Turnpike relates to... calcifying animals at the bottom of the ocean around the Pacific Islands, you might not see the connection. But through study, you sometimes can see. Actually, the study can be sometimes through direct perception and through reason, but also sometimes you can't see it. Now, the scientists are telling us there's a connection between our activity on land and the life of animals down below. And then he also says, to alter the chemistry of the seas is to take a very large risk, and not just with the oceans.

[26:21]

And I don't mean to criticize George Bush and his administration, but I think that his friends would say that he took an extremely big gamble by invading Iraq. It was a big gamble. And then I've heard from many people since that time, a lack of awareness of consequences, a lack of concern for consequences. So here again, the attention to consequences seems to be turned way down, and then taking risks, acting in a careless way. And in the Buddhist practice, you've heard this probably, that there's a danger, as you study Buddhism, And particularly there's a danger in studying emptiness that you will think cause and effect are empty and therefore become careless and reckless and not care about consequences.

[27:33]

So what I was thinking of bringing up here is, OK, again, to say that the scripture is called, where the Buddha is talking to a person named . Did I read it to you before? This is in the Samyutta Nikaya, fourth book, page 230, 231. Basically, the Buddha says, the saiva comes to the Buddha, he said, on one occasion, a blessed one was dwelling in Gajagriha in the bamboo grove in the squirrel sanctuary. Lasi wasn't there. Then a wanderer, Maliya Saibaka, approached the Blessed One and exchanged greetings with him.

[28:44]

When they had concluded their greetings and their cordial talk, he sat down to one side and said to the Blessed One, I wonder what the cordial talk was. How's your back? Master Gautama, there are some ascetics and Brahmins who hold such a doctrine and view as this. Whatever a person experiences, whether pleasant or painful, or neither painful nor pleasant, all that is caused by what is done in the palace. What does Master Gautama say about this? And then the Buddha says, some feelings, sadhaka, arise here, originating here, being like here and now, arise here and now, originating from bile disorders.

[29:56]

Some feelings arise here originating from planet disorders. So some feelings arise here originating from bio disorders. One can know for oneself by direct experience and is considered and that is considered to be true in the world. Now, when ascetics and Brahmins hold such a doctrine in view as this, whatever a person experiences, whether it be pleasant or painful, or neither pleasant or painful, all that is caused by what is done in the past, he overshoots what he knows by himself, and they overshoot what is considered to be true in the world. Therefore I say that this is wrong on the part of those ascetics and dhammas.

[31:04]

So anybody who says that whatever you're Feelings you're having are due just to karma, past karma. You wouldn't be able to verify that by direct experience, and people don't think that in the world. Some Buddhists do. Some people do. But most people don't think that. And then he lists several of the causes. So there's phlegm, bile, and also wind, and imbalance between these two, and climate, and carelessness, and assault, those seven. And the last thing on the list is karmic result. Those are the things which, those are the conditions that lead us to have feelings of pain, pleasure, and need, he says. But this is the only scripture that makes this point. Usually he's putting so much emphasis on karma so that people think that karma causation is the only one that's leading to our experience.

[32:16]

He's saying that that's not true. And anybody who says that is wrong because they do not have a direct experience of this. And also, it's not conventional wisdom either. Could you give a citation of that sutra, I guess? Samyutta Nikaya, Roman numeral IV, 230. So it's just that the subset of the causal world where karma operates is where bondage arises. Bondage does not arise from phlegm or season change. and so on. It arises from your intentions. Create bondage and also studying that pattern, that world. Studying the world of karmic cause and effect causes a... The study causes a reversal in understanding of the process, which is nirvana.

[33:19]

Right in the middle of the samsaric bondage situation, study of the causation reveals the selflessness of everything, including the selflessness of bondage. So that's where the Buddha puts all his emphasis, because that's where bondage and liberation occur, in that subset of the all-encompassing law of causation. Yes? I just want to clarify. Are you saying that it's what you're saying, that there are some feelings that are not caused by poetry? Yes. Yeah, that's another subtlety, which I think I mentioned this before. There are feelings which are not caused by karma, but karma matures as feeling. Only as feeling? It only matures as feeling. But karmic activities arise depending on past karma.

[34:22]

So if something's a condition for something else, that's very important. But the other thing is not the maturing necessarily of the condition. But sometimes... Is that maturing? I'm not carnal. So... So karma matures feelings. Feeling is actually... Karma matures as feeling, but karma also is a condition for lots of things which aren't feelings, which are, for example, other karmas. But that's the way it matures. That's the way it kind of like comes to conclusion, is as pain, pleasure and neutral.

[35:29]

Karma matures as pain, pleasure and neutral sensation. That's the way it matures. Like if you had money in the bank, the money in the bank is said to mature by its interest. But having the money in the bank is a condition for a lot of things while it's sitting there. Moment by moment, it's a condition for lots of things. It's being used in many ways. It's the basis of a lot of activity. But it comes to maturity at a certain point, and it has a definition of its maturity. So karma matures in that realm, but not all feeling is due just to karma. But again, we don't study the other conditions because those are not the ones, their activity is not what creates bondage. However, they're not unrelated to it because the whole karma occurs within the whole field of causation. But there's the part of the field of causation which is particularly bondage-promoting, is the karma part.

[36:41]

and particularly unstudied karma, promotes bondage very nicely. Studying karma starts to reverse the process. But studying phlegm and bile without being aware of your intention does not, you can still, you may learn a lot about them possibly, but unless you study also your karmic causation, you might not see the selflessness in the bile production. If you did study bile and seasons and carelessness, if you did study these things and see their selflessness, then you would arrive at the same place that one can rise at by studying karma. But usually people's vision is fogged unless they're also paying attention to what they are intending to do. So a scientist or a philosopher who's not aware of their own intentions while they're studying phenomena probably wouldn't be able to see selflessness. But if they did, I would say, well, great.

[37:43]

I don't care how you get free. Yes? The maturing of karma. Let's say I'm Civil War and my entire family is killed by the neighboring tribe. Yes. The maturing of my karma is simply the feeling, the feeling that arises with that. Popularly, people say, well, that's your karma. No. No. That's what he's saying. He's saying, if you see someone, if you see people hurt and you feel pain about it, that that pain is not just coming from karma. Okay? It's coming from this terrible situation too. However, when karma matures, it matures as pain is on. But not every pain comes from karma. Not every pain is a maturing of karma. Or rather, even if it's a maturing of karma, the situation is not caused by karma.

[38:47]

Yeah, that's what I really want to be clear about because I think we talk all the time in a different way. Like, you know, my husband leaves me and I call that situation my karma. But it doesn't seem like it is. I don't know what you're saying. Let's see. I think that... I think I'd rather, if possible, not get into this anymore right now. Because I have to mention, you know, that the worlds are created by karma. What about consciousness? Well, countries live within worlds. You were saying earlier about George Bush in the United States and the karma, I mean, the karma that this country and the U.K.

[39:53]

is generating as a result of this horrendous situation is something that I don't understand how that could possibly, how could there be any good karma generated from that? As an aside. You're saying how any good karma generated from it, and I understand that. But what I'm saying is that the world we're living in, which has this war in it, that this world is a result of all of our karma. And you're now saying that you think it's a very unfortunate world, right? I think this particular situation is extraordinarily unfortunate for everybody in the country. Right. But then you said, I don't see, I think you said something, you didn't quite say this, but you said, I don't see how this situation could generate good karma. But good karma could come in this situation. For example, it's unbelievably, I cannot believe this is happening. It's just like, I never saw anything like this in my lifetime.

[40:56]

I completely agree. But the American people did shift their voting activity pretty significantly. That's a consequence. That seems good, what they did. Some of the people voted differently. Some Republicans did not vote for Republicans, I guess, or whatever. So that might be the karma. I don't know. But terrible situations. which are sometimes due to karma, but not just to karma, can be situations which generate good karma. And good situations, which are not just due to karma, can be situations where unwholesome karma arises. that can happen. So this horrendous situation is a situation where some wonderful acts of kindness and courage can arise, and also wonderful acts or horrible acts of cruelty, disastrous, unfortunate human activity can arise in this present situation, and it seems to be.

[42:12]

But also acts of great kindness are also arising. But I was just saying that also the situation, the actual, the world, I said the situation, but I mean the world, the cognitive enclosure of what's going on here is a world. What's actually happening, or I should say things are existing on a level that's not a world. The way that we see the world is not just the way the world is, but the way we see the world is the result of climate. So some people would see a devastation, other people would see a moral victory. Those are worlds. And those are created, the worlds are created by kindness. Your actions create what you think the world is. And in whatever world you're living in there is a possibility that kindness and wisdom will arise.

[43:19]

But we're not saying that your actions make everything happen, but the actions create the way you see things. But I'd like to go on to a somewhat different topic and come back to this maybe later. That's all right. I'd like to go on to a topic which is a difficult one for us, and it's the topic of, well, it comes up in studying this chapter of the Shobo Genzo called Sanji-go, which means karma of three worlds, or karma of three times, as she said. And so this is a scripture, in a sense, of our tradition. It's a testimony by Dogen. And also I want to mention that he wrote this in the last year of his life. And towards the end of his life, he seems to have become, in some ways,

[44:32]

I don't know what the word is. Some people would say conservative or traditional. That's their view of him. So here's this text which was written last year of his life, and another text which I may be able to bring up called Deep Faith in Cause and Effect. He didn't finish before he died. It was edited and published after he died, a couple of years after he died. But I just wanted to look at this one today. So part of what this is dealing with is a dialogue between two of the ancestors in our tradition. And one of them is, the teacher's name is Kumara Labda. And we say kumarata, kumarata daisho. Sanskrit is kumara labda.

[45:38]

And the student is gayata or jayata, jayata daisho. And so Jayate goes to Kumar Laha and says, I can't read this. Can you read it? So this is Shobha Genzo karma three times. And so the 19th ancestor is Venerable Kumar Labda. So he arrives in a country in central India. And there's a great being there named Gayata. And Gayata asks him, In my family, father and mother have always believed in the triple treasure, yet they have been beset by ill health in general, are disappointed in all their undertakings.

[46:53]

My neighbor's family has long done the work of outcasts, yet their bodies are always in sound health and their doings harmoniously combine. What is their good fortune and what is our guilt? The venerable one, Kumaralabha says, how could there be room for doubt? In short, retribution for good and bad comes in three times. Generally, people see that the good die young. We have that expression in English too, right? The good die young. And then here in India, they also have that expression, the good die young. And the violent live long. To the evil fortune and to the righteous calamity, whereupon people say that there is no cause and effect in wrongness or happiness.

[47:54]

Particularly, they do not know that the shadow and the sound accord with their sources, not differing by a thousand or a hundred. even with the passing of a hundred thousand myriad cultists never wearing away. Then Gayatri, having heard these words, at once renounced doubt. And so could you follow that story somewhat? OK, so the question is, my parents seem to be people, and they're very unhappy. Neighbors, I don't know what. They don't seem to particularly care about ethical discipline, but they seem to be happy. So people see people doing good don't seem to be happy, and people who seem to be not caring about doing good seem to be fine.

[49:03]

So how does that work? And the teacher says, we have this teaching to explain that called karmic retribution of three tones, meaning that karma can mature rapidly in some cases, in other cases it It occurs in the next life. In another case, it occurs one or many lifetimes afterwards. So this ties back to now we're not saying everything that's happening is due to karma. We're not saying everything happens, but some things do happen according to karma. But the things that happen according to karma you know, in other words, happen according to your good intentions or ill intentions, those things don't necessarily appear immediately. Sometimes they do. Sometimes they appear immediately or in this light time. Sometimes they appear in the next light time. That's the basic thrust of the beginning of the text. Now, this is an example of an absenteeist tradition making that testimony.

[50:13]

And along with this, Dogen starts his commentary and mentions that Kumar Labda, who in the previous case, Kumar Labda, in meeting with his teacher, his teacher came to him came to his town and noticed something funny about his house. There was something, you know, some kind of like, I don't know, some kind of aura around his house. So his teacher came up to the house and knocked at the door. And I'll tell the story, you know, completely later, but basically he realized he had a vision of the person in his house was someone who Buddha had predicted to be his successor. And so he told the guy that.

[51:16]

And when he told the guy that, the guy actually had insight into his past lives by that interaction, direct experience. And that person is Kumar Labda. So what he was told was that the Buddha predicted that Kumar Labda would be the person he is at that point in history where he was existing. So this master brought him that message from the Buddha. And then also, Gayata was also predicted by the Buddha. Both these people were predicted by the Buddha. So the final Buddha, he predicted them by name. So this is part of, like, the Buddha predicting people who are going to appear in later lifetimes. That's part of what's going on in this story here. And I just want to say that my experience of reading this fascicle, I read it before, and I'd like to distinguish between hearing about future lives and feeling good about it, or hearing about future lives and feeling bad about it.

[52:33]

And some people hear about future lives and they feel, oh, I'll be able to practice more. Even if I don't finish my practice now, I'll get more chances and feel good about it. Other people hear about future lives and they think, oh, my God, what's going to happen to me? And sometimes people use that as a way to get people to practice. If you don't start practicing right, blah, blah. And so they're frightened by it. They feel good or bad about it. of my feeling about meditating on this teaching this time was more one of just clearing away, just opening my mind to causation, of just opening my mind to the unperceivable way things work, rather than making me believe in or not believe in this teaching. But that this teaching really opened my mind And so now I could read you a little bit of this text, or I could stop.

[53:44]

And I could read you some other texts about this kind of thing. I guess I'd just like to say, without trying to convince you, that in the records of the ancestors in our tradition, people from Shakyamuni Buddha up to now, particularly in the Indian and Chinese part of the lineage, which is the most famous people. After Dogen, people in our lineage are not so famous. So the stories about them are not so accessible to us. And also in Japan, those people are not that famous. the people from Kaizen up to like Suzuki Roshi. There are some record of these people, but not much. But before Dogen, there's quite a bit of people before Dogen, particularly from the sixth ancestor back to Buddha.

[54:47]

There's quite a bit of information about these because these are the big people in the tradition. And many of the stories about them are about rebirth. And in the Tibetan tradition, people say they're quite aware of this idea of rebirth. Zen doesn't seem to be into that so much. And I would say we're not systematically into it. But if you look at these stories, very often there's stories of rebirth in the Zen tradition about the people, the actual people. In the main lineage and associated, there's rebirth stories. And I'm not telling you that so that you'll believe that. I'm more telling you that just so you know it's there, for your information and for your contemplation. And then if you start contemplating, I think things will start getting interesting.

[55:49]

And that's what I would like to do, is contemplate the situation a little bit with you. But if you want to start, I have any questions. I'm curious. You said this really opened up your mind to the foundation. I'd be curious to hear what's it about. Mm-hmm. So I think I was reading along here, and Dogen says that Kumaratta is the 19th ancestor, and that Tathagata personally predicted him by name. Chakramuni Buddha did that. and he clearly realized the Dharma, and that venerable Gayata also was predicted by the Tathagata.

[57:01]

And then Dogen says, we should not mix with people of false views in the world today who neither know cause and effect nor understand karmic retribution nor know the three ages of of karmic retribution, nor distinguish between good and bad." And I just wanted to say there that when he says we should not mix with them, I wouldn't understand him to mean that you shouldn't try to help them. And not mix with them, I think, means don't mix their thinking about that, you know, there's no good and bad karma, don't mix that with your view. Don't be confused by people who think that consequences are not existent. Don't mix with them in that way. So the bodhisattvas are totally plunging into the world of all beings, and yet there's also the caution to not mix with the views of people who have wrong view.

[58:15]

And then he goes through and he gives examples of retribution received in immediate present, retribution received in one's next life and one that's received later than no one's next life. And so then I'm leading along here, you know, and I just come upon this story about this woodcutter. who's out in the woods. And so what happened to me when I was reading about this? I guess I had a combination of feeling the importance of paying attention to karma, at the same time feeling that the partitions of past, present and future were removed.

[59:50]

And it gave me a feeling of immersion without being caught by distinction. I guess that was the feeling. And feeling like I was in a spacious place that also was morally consequential, so that I could pay attention to everything with no worry about myself. And yet, without being worried about myself, still be able to be interested in paying attention to everything in the field. And it wasn't so much that I believed in karmic causation through time, but rather hearing that teaching and reading these stories, which in some sense are, I don't know, when you hear them you might think they're silly. The willingness, the openness to these silly stories

[60:54]

opened something else too, which made me feel very encouraged in the practice. And I want to distinguish again between feeling good and thinking that you like it because it feels good, and feeling encouraged to practice, encouraged to meditate. I feel that now that this transition has occurred of the kitchen leaving,

[62:21]

that one of the things that's brought up in this text, which I've told you about before, and which is kind of simple to talk about without reading the text, is that the Buddha said that, and I read this just a minute ago, that every action does have consequence. But some consequences do not come right away. But no matter how long it takes for the consequence to manifest, it will manifest. However, he doesn't say that the consequence is established at the moment of the commission of the act and that that consequence then will be the consequence at that later time. He does not say that. Was that clear? So if you do... For example, if you do a slightly unkind thing right now, that slightly unkind thing, the Buddha, as I understand, says that will have consequence.

[63:51]

It may not have consequence right away. It may not have consequence in this lifetime. But it will have consequence. However, how it will have consequence is not set at this moment. And many examples are given where if a slightly unskillful thing is done, And then it is the person who does it, practices very sincerely, with a very big, compassionate mind, that the way that that unkind act will manifest will be practically insignificant.

[64:57]

But not really a problem, not a big problem. However, if a slightly unkind act is done and it manifests much later, and it's followed, it lives in a line of causal continuity where there's not sincere practice, that the way it manifests could be quite severe and cause great pain for one or more living beings. So the easy to understand example, which I often use, is the example of a grain of salt. You've heard that one? Take a grain of salt, and they used to have big grains of salt back in the old days.

[66:13]

I guess you could go buy a chunk of salt, but you take a grain of salt and put it in a cup of water, the water will be undrinkable. Have you tried to drink salty water? It's not easy. Imagine if you put a lot of salt in a cup of water. Like, you know, a cup of water and a cup of salt in a cup of water. it would be undrinkable. Even I think a cup and a quarter is pretty much undrinkable. But if you take a cup of water, a cup of salt, a grain of salt, and put it in a lake, it's not undrinkable. So similarly, if you do an unskillful thing and you've made a big commitment to the precepts and you're practicing with them, it could manifest in the form of people telling you quite soon after you do it that they're really disappointed in you for what you just did. Does that make sense?

[67:18]

So they might say, that was really unkind what you said to her. That's how it could manifest. which you might even feel like some pain that you're unkind, but feel happy that the people told you and be able to say, I think I see what you mean. And I wish I had spoken kindly. I really wish I had said it more kindly. That's the way it could manifest. But if you weren't practicing, if you weren't committed to precepts of compassion and you spoke unkindly to someone, it's possible that even if a bunch of people witnessed it, including the person who felt that way, that no one was saying anything to you. They might say something to somebody else like, did you see he was kind of rude to her today? Somebody else might say, yeah, that's right, he was. That might be the end of it for the time being.

[68:20]

But that's not the maturing of it, and it's not the maturing of it. And it's possible that the maturing of it would come quite a bit later, like in the next lifetime even, or many lives later, and be very, very, very, very greatly unhappy. And being able to see how that works, the Buddha can see how that works. When people do things, the enlightened mind can see how they work, but they can actually see not just the things set at that time, but they can see how that thing works with the practice of the person. And they can see how the combination of the practice with the action would lead to certain results. So that's how the enlightened mind can actually see, at the time of the commission of certain acts, the consequences. But it doesn't mean that they can see that the consequences are fixed.

[69:24]

Still the consequences are relative to the practice, and there's no self in the process. But when we hear those stories, we tend to project a self on it. So the story that it's in, actually, Abhidharma text, and it's being quoted by Dogen here, is a story of somebody who, this is not a real person, right, somebody who in their whole lifetime They committed no unwholesome acts. They committed only wholesome acts. And then when they died, the specter of a rebirth in a state of torment appeared to him or her. And when they saw that, they thought, wow, that looks bad. And they felt that what they were seeing was the result of their past karma. Now I just said that past karma is not the only thing that determines things.

[70:29]

But they felt that this destiny, this world that they were going to be born into, was the result of their karma. And they simultaneously were glad that they practiced good their whole life. they had the joy that they had practiced according to the Buddhist precepts during their life. They were glad that they had been able to do that, even though they saw this terrible vision of where they were going, coming up. At least, although I'm going to this bad place, at least I had the joy of practicing the precepts of compassion in this lifetime. And I'm I'm, you know, I'm pained by the view of what's coming. And this attitude of basically right view in the face of horror, the specter dissolved and a happy world appeared before me.

[71:35]

That's the story. The complementary story is that someone who did not practice ethics ever, when they died, a specter appeared to them of a happy situation that they would be coming into. And they thought, wow, I thought I'd get in trouble. but actually looks like causation really doesn't count for anything because I'm going to a good place and I really didn't do anything good my whole life. So I'm glad I didn't and I'm glad there's no cause and effect. No moral cause and effect. And then the specter of a beneficent situation melted away and a specter of a tormenting situation arose. So this, and this is quoted in this fascicle, and it's taken from Abhidharma works, you know, Sanskrit, Abhidharma.

[72:45]

And so this is an example of an observation of moral causation, which we ordinarily are not privy to and we hear about. And again, I don't mean to say this to you so that you will believe this, but rather let you know that for some reason or another this is part of the tradition. And another example which I've been asked to bring up is case 58 of the Book of Serenity, which is actually a quote from the Diamond Scripture. And in this quote, the way it's quoted here in this text is, the Diamond Scripture says, if someone is reviled by others, this person has done wicked acts in previous ages and should fall into evil ways.

[73:51]

But because of the scorn and revilement of people in the present age, the wicked deeds of the past are dissolved. Okay, so actually the context in which this is quoted is where it says, if when you're practicing, you know, like reciting and copying and studying the Diamond Sutra, if when you're practicing people do this, come to you and revile you, this is because of your past actions that they're coming to revile you. But the revilement is actually the dissolving of the consequences of your past action. It's the maturing, in this case, of your past actions in this form of revilement and insult coming to you while you're practicing.

[74:58]

And if you weren't — it doesn't say this — but if you weren't practicing, I'm saying, if you weren't practicing, your karma would not mature in this form of people insulting you and reviling you. It would mature in some other form. For example, it could mature in the form of you thinking that cause and effect did not exist. It could mature in that form. So in other words, when you're practicing sincerely, in a very concentrated and essential way, your past karma can mature in the form of people insulting you. And that's a very fortunate way. That's a top-of-the-line good luck for your past unskillful action. If you get angry at people who insult you and revile you, then you set up a whole new train.

[76:09]

So what you're saying here actually, we should be grateful when people are insulting us because this is a very nice maturing, and it's also, if we think that way we're practicing, and if we're practicing we'll think that way. And also with practicing, the way our past unskillful actually matures will be in this really tame way of people insulting us. That's really tame compared to the worst would be be thrown into a state where you think, I'm really glad I didn't practice meditation and causation, because it really is a waste of time. That would be like a super bad thing to happen to you, to think that way. Okay, so, do you have some question about that? Yes, Jeff, I think was first. Well, I got confused earlier. There was some, I thought there was some statement saying that karma only matures as feeling, definitely sound correct.

[77:17]

Matures as feeling. Well, it sounds like you're talking about stories where karma is maturing in other forms besides feeling. It sounds like I'm saying it's maturing as a specter, as a vision. As revilement. As revilement. And I had this question earlier. So all these things that are given to us, whether it's our intention or our feelings or our thoughts, this is an expanded question, but is that all dictated by karma, or what's there? No, it's not all dictated by karma. That's easy. That's the easy part. It's just that the karmic part is the part that, if you pay attention to, is particularly clarifying. And also the karmic part it paid attention to transforms the karma. Whereas if you pay attention to some other causal processes, it doesn't necessarily change your intention.

[78:23]

It might, because sometimes when you're paying attention to things other than intention, your intention evolves through perhaps practicing concentration. But the awareness of your intention is particularly recommended as essential. Now, going back to your other example, I can see how it sounds like if I'm saying karma only matures as feeling, if people are reviling you, And I also use the example of if you have the karma of committing to the bodhisattva precepts in public, then part of the consequence of that karma might be that people would say to you, I thought yesterday you committed to the precept of not taking what's not given.

[79:26]

And now I see you seem to be taking a big piece of pizza that I didn't give you. So that seems like a consequence. right, of the action of committing to not taking what's not given. But consequence isn't necessarily the same as maturing. So maturing, I can see that's sort of the end of the line of the train, right? Yeah, right. Maturing is more like the end of the line. So what spurs of the rail do you get? Yeah, I think it's probably saying you get all these, there's like a shotgun effect of our actions. That's part of what's being said here. And it's not always, and it's not clear, it's many possible varieties. And so this part of the teaching is in some sense difficult because it's like to see this and then report on this is not possible until you're really

[80:29]

Enlightened. Because consequences have a little feel like maturing, but there's also a sense in your stories that the consequence is sort of like a possible maturing, a person having it right. Yes. So it's sort of like a test, you know, okay, okay, we've got more praying to act together then. Yeah, and also practice will generally mature unwholesome actions more quickly. That's a general principle which I put out there. If you're practicing, unwholesome things come to maturity sooner. Generally speaking, if things take longer to mature, the debt, I mean the account grows. So unwholesome acts that occur in a practice field that's not very well developed, the maturing tends to be extenuated, postponed. Unskillful actions in a field of practice tend to be foreclosed, foreshortened.

[81:34]

So this example is saying, I think, because of practice, things which could mature later as really severely problematic are now maturing in the form of people insulting you. Or rather, people insulting you matures the karma. That's another way to put it. That the people insulting you matures the karma. Because you didn't react violently. Well, yeah, especially if you didn't. Even if you react violently still, The maturing in this form comes because you're practicing. So that was a little twist. Let me get that clear. That then if you got angry, that would be another karma. But if you're practicing, which and that brought on your karma, brought on the maturing of your karma in the form of people reviling you, and then you say thank you, you say welcome to that, you know, hallelujah to that, then at that time, then you're practicing at that moment and then there won't be karma built up from that moment.

[82:49]

But sometimes we don't say thank you to people who insult us. Right? We don't say welcome to this experience. So then we create more common at that time. Yes? I think it'd be really helpful to me to, I guess you can't delineate, but how Okay, instead of maturing, what are the possible consequences of karma? Is it like anything? That's what it seems like from the stories. This is like karma can manifest the key kind of action in your life. Our worlds are karmically created. So everything in the world is karmically created, but it's not saying that everything is just due to karma. And also, it's not saying that it's deterministic either. Say that again. What whole thing?

[83:53]

Mr. Last. It's not saying that it's deterministic. It's not overly deterministic. There's a possibility of freedom from the process by studying the process. Yes. I was wondering, you said at the beginning that the verification of these claims, the first way to verify it is by direct experience. Yes. And I find that very difficult to know what is really direct experience, because people seem to have different direct perception. My uncle said, well, I don't experience things that way, and nobody do. So are you raising a question about direct perception? Yeah. So we know things two ways according to the tradition, by direct perception and by cognitive, by conceptual cognition. Those are the two way of knowing things.

[84:54]

And you can know them validly or invalidly. And direct perception, most people do not ascertain, even though it's going on all day long. I'm not even talking about karma here. That's just what I see. It's not the same that you see. Yeah, that's true, too. So I'm looking at your face and you're looking at my face. But even if we're both looking at the same object? Even if we're both looking at the same object, we don't see this. But we're both seeing the same object. But maybe not in the same way. Not in the same way, no. But we're seeing the same object. We can both look at blue, and we're both looking at the blue, and it's possible that neither one of us ascertained that we're seeing blue. Even though we both are. How can we verify any claim? By direct perception? We have to be able to ascertain direct perception. Okay.

[85:55]

Because most people cannot do. But you can, by that means, by direct experience, know. Most people, when they see a color, for example, they're seeing a conceptual concept of the color, and they're taking the concept of the color as the color. But it can be a valid conceptual cognition of the color. It can be right or invalid. And the Buddha had direct perception of, for example, people's karma, and direct perception of people's rebirth and people's past lives, direct perception of it. Which he ascertained. Which he ascertained, yeah. Let's see, Green? I was wondering about

[86:59]

I was wondering about the responsibility one has for someone reviling. Yes. So I was wondering about the karmic implications of that for the person being reviled. Do you follow? The karmic implications of the person being reviled, yes. Yeah, so the Diamond Sutra is saying that when you're practicing the Diamond Sutra, when people come up and revile you, it's the Sutra saying, don't get upset. This is a good sign that you're practicing the Diamond Sutra properly. Because now people, you know, they're coming over to you and reviling you for doing this wholesome thing. So you're practicing the Diamond Sutra. By the way, it's also maturing your karma in a very nice way. I think I was thinking were about the person who's doing the reviling.

[88:03]

Yeah. That's not what you said. OK. Maybe not. But that's what I meant. OK. That's what I was thinking about. Yeah. So they're accumulating. I'm also in karma by the act of reviling you. Well, unless they were doing it as a special favor to you, on purpose. Like they said, oh, I'm going to join this, this guy's practicing, that's beautiful. I'm going to go over there and, like, make sure a bunch of us come over. And they come over to you and they go, you know, blah, blah, you know. And they just, they love you, they really love you, love you to death, maybe. But that's what they're doing. This is a bodhisattva who understands that he's part of the process by which the deck's being cleared for you. And it's no problem for him. But if he actually has ill will towards you, then he doesn't realize that he's serving you.

[89:07]

And then you would also feel sorry for him. That would be similar to, Shanti Davis says, when people attack you, they give you the opportunity to, when people are cruel to you, they give you a chance to practice patience. When you feel that way, you're grateful to them, and you say it's too bad that you go up at their expense, that they go down to offer you the chance to go up. So that's the sad part. There's not much you can do about it. Even the Buddha couldn't stop some people from having ill will towards her. But not everybody that has ill will towards us is in trouble. Some people that have ill will towards us are like part of the big liberation team. Really. It's possible. You have to look in their heart to see if there's any ill will, if they're praising us, out of ill will, they could, they could praise us out of ill will, then they would be in trouble. However, we wouldn't at that moment, that wouldn't be the maturing of our karma.

[90:11]

And we wouldn't, that wouldn't be the foreshortening of some real horrendous situation, which we would be grateful for. And we realize, boy, my practice is really doing well because people are insulting me left and right, so I must be practicing really well, you know? And, you know, thank you, thank you, you know, that kind of attitude, that will happen to you if you practice. Because everybody's got some unskills of history, right? And that history is going to manifest as some kind of difficult, like, for example, a picture of going to hell. That's not that easy. That's difficult to see. But then if you've been practicing, you might have a chance to practice with that horrible vision, those terrible pictures or those terrible words. And then because of the practice, it just drops away.

[91:15]

That's the idea. Now, if it's an actual person, rather than just a picture in your mind, and then if the person is actually participating in their mind, it will work towards you. That's too bad for them, of course. And you would feel compassion towards them at that time, and gratitude at the same time. And gratitude to the teacher and the practice, all that. Does that make perfect sense? It makes sense, yeah. I was wondering if I could make a request. Maybe you could revile me a little. I vow to involve you in a way that will, when I see that it will help you, I will definitely do it. Yes, Danielle and Everett. Oh, a long time ago, yeah, sorry. A long time ago, sorry. Yeah, I can't get stuck about something problem.

[92:16]

Yes. Yes. It seems to me, this is not really the main teaching in the story, but it seems to me that you expressed some very harsh classism when you came forward with this question. When you said that... Yeah, he did. That's right. You know, my neighbors, they, you know, they do work on the outcasts, and therefore they're not sort of as good as my family. It really, it really... Well, here's another way that you can interpret that story. They have the birth, an unfortunate birth. And the people in the unfortunate birth are happy. That's one way to interpret it. But these are people who are supposed to be unfortunate because they're in the outcast family. So that's another way to interpret it. Not that he thinks they're bad people, but they're people who are supposed to be unhappy. Isn't it better to be in that outcast family and be happy than to be in the... That's part of what he's questioning.

[93:20]

How come if you're born into a good family that has, like, good practices and so on, You're born into a good level of society, you have good practices, and you're unhappy. These people are born into an unfortunate level of society and they're happy. How could that happen? It doesn't make sense to him. Not that he thinks that they're bad people, but they're born into what you usually consider an unfortunate situation. I appreciate your question because I also felt bad about that too, but now I see it differently. I see it. They're born into a bad situation and they're happy, My parents are born into a good situation, and they're unhappy. So we have that case here, you know, like Jane's friend. They're some of the nicest people she knows, some of the most loving people she knows, and their daughter committed suicide. So people are born into really good situations. And then they have a terrible time. People are born in a terrible situation, and they're really happy.

[94:24]

How can that work in terms of causation? He's saying it's complicated, basically. That's how it can work that way. But the Buddha is saying, and his ancestors are saying, have no doubt that it works this way, that wholesome acts have beneficial consequences, and unwholesome action has harmful or disadvantageous consequences. You could also say that, as I mentioned before, if you have a good consequence, that means there was a good cause. So it isn't really in the cause itself that the goodness is. It's really the happiness that comes from it or the unhappiness from it. And it's saying, unhappiness comes from in the way of liberation, unhappiness comes from action. Happiness comes from action.

[95:24]

Our happiness and unhappiness comes from action on the path of liberation. And he also says, not all happiness and unhappiness, I should say, not all pain and pleasure comes from karma. But happiness comes from action, unhappiness comes from action. That's what they're saying. And they're saying that this is completely always the case. That's what the ancestors are saying. And then there's rebirth that makes it into this thing. It's part of the way to show how complicated it is of changing bodies. And I also just want to mention that I read this scripture called Elucidation of Consciousness in the Ratnakutya Sutra, Mahayana, Ratnakutya, it's a treasury of Mahayana scriptures, number 39, and it talks about how when you have good roots it's really easy to change bodies.

[96:33]

Pre-birth is easy for stale practitioners. So another reason to get stale. So I hate to be the guy who has to always ask about this, but I'm thinking about the difference between karmic causation and not karmic causation. Yes. Where the boundary lies, because, for example, what is this? more dogmatic view in some Tibetan tradition, I would say. For example, with . Yeah, I think there's a more dogmatic view conversation i would say for example certain people would be born were born in new orleans because that was their karma and that's why they were killed by the hurricane or the example that always comes to my mind is say the holocaust that um there are these a lot of different levels that you know this real dogmatic view would say that millions and millions of people it was their karma to be born in a particular place and get and die horrible deaths

[97:52]

And then there's this other one a few levels down that just says, well, you know, there was action, Hitler and everybody else, and then the consequence were these unbelievable horrors. And I guess I'm just wondering where that boundary lies. Well, one boundary that I heard you talking about was the boundary between non-karmic causation and karmic causation. So I don't consider the way molecules are bumping off each other as karmic causation. I don't consider that as intentional. And so I think the boundary is looking at what's intentional and what's not. But when we're talking about karmic volition, I mean, if I'm walking down the street and somebody drops a piano, a piano falls on my head, I might say, well, that's not... I just happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[99:02]

But I've heard teachers say that, for example, a lobster that got caught and put in a supermarket, that's that lobster's karma. And that's going to be... So that's going to be the piano. That's going to be the piano, you know, and that's just sort of, you know, now that karma has been matured, exactly. And it doesn't seem, you know, that there was no intention for the lobster. I mean, so it's just, it's really, that's just something, that's a sick point for me that's really troubling because when you talk about this, a non... not bound by destiny, you know, obviously that's what I want to believe, but there is this more dogmatic view. I guess the way it makes sense to me is that the way that Lotzer feels about the call, the way the lobster's mind experiences being caught.

[100:07]

And the pattern of relationship in the lobster's mind at the time of being caught has a very clear connection with past minds of the lobster and past relationships that that mind envisioned. That's the karmic causation. I guess, I mean, but in the realm of reworking, like my original example, that people who were in a place where there's an earthquake and a bunch of people die, or, I mean, because this is, I mean, it comes up again in realms of politics, that people believe that, you know, that if If we're winning the war, it must be because these people deserve to die, you know? People do think that way, right. So I know people think that way. So then if people think that way, then that's a moment of karma right there. To see yourself in relationship to someone in that picture, that's an example of karma.

[101:10]

That's an intention. And that has consequence. The consequence of that way of thinking will be that type of thinking, generally speaking, tends to have the consequence of more thinking of that type. And seeing yourself in relationship to people and that they're your friends tends to promote seeing yourself in relationship to people that are your friends again. That part's simple, I guess. So what I'm saying is that, and also that the way you see yourself in relationship to the world, together with the way I see myself in relationship to the world, it actually creates a world which we share because we do similar kinds of karma in creating our worlds because we speak the same language. So we create a different world than fish create among themselves. We live in a different world from fish. We're in the same world you know, in an uncreated way or unpackaged way or unmanifested way.

[102:17]

We're in the same world with the fish, but the world the fish see is not the world that we see. So even people in a war might be able to agree, people on both sides of the war might be able to agree that they're in a war. And some one side might feel happy and the other side might feel unhappy. But some people on both sides might see the enemy as their friend. And they would be able to do that because they'd been thinking in the past, probably, they ought to have been able to think of people who are arguing with them and insulting them as their friends, so they can have this kind of thought. What causes bridges to collapse and tidal waves to come and things like that is not due to just karma. I think that's what the Buddha is saying. But the way we feel as we're being hit by the tidal wave, and in our vision of our relationship with the tidal wave and all other beings who are being hurt by it, that view is a karma at the moment, and that karma is dependent on past karma.

[103:32]

And so it's possible that when we're in a catastrophe together, like Jivan was saying, we can be in a horrible situation. But some of us, because of past karma, can now in the present time have a karma of a certain type called wholesome karma. Right now, in a terrible situation, we can be concerned for the welfare of others and want them to do well. right in the most terrible situation. But that probably won't be possible for somebody who hasn't ever had a thought like that for a long time. Even in a pleasant situation, some people, because of past karma, are thinking this is a terrible situation because they've been thinking that way about how everybody's their enemy and nobody likes them and nobody's supporting them. That's the way their mind's working. And again, The mind working that way is selfless. There's nobody in charge of it. It's just causes and conditions that create that. However, and it's just causes and conditions that make it possible to observe that.

[104:39]

However, observing that is part of the causal process of understanding, and understanding it is liberation. And in liberation you become very skillful to help other people to study in the same way. Even though you can't control them to study, you somehow can see and you're seeing this has an effect on people and encourages them to study. And the more they study, the more they will be able to be skillful and loving in any situation. Because, you know, this world does get smashed at various points. You know, people, calamities do occur. And they are not due just to karma. However, the worlds that we experience when these calamities occur, those are created by all of our karma, not just yours, but mine and yours together. We make a world. So when there's a landslide, the fish have one kind of landslide, the humans have another landslide, ants have another landslide.

[105:47]

And among the humans are in a landslide, a shared landslide. The different humans who are practicing differently have different karmas at that moment. Some, because they've been studying karma, have learned, oh, this is how I think. And the more you see how you think, the more your vision clears and the more you see actually the selflessness of the situation and the cooperation. Selflessness and cooperation go together. Cooperation, when you see cooperation, you see selflessness. Karma shows you selflessness and cooperation. It's demonstrating that. And if you can observe it, you see this demonstration. Even though none of us can control ourselves to look, still, when we look, that tends to produce us looking again. So all these terrible examples of calamities that have occurred to humans, those calamities that happen to them are not due to their karma.

[106:49]

They're due to many factors. The main thing that's due to their karma is how they think about it at the moment. That's particularly due to their own karma. The event that people would share, that's created by all of our karma. The actuality of it is not just created by karma. Otherwise, people will be just going, okay, one, two, three, thinking we can move mountains with our minds. Can't do that. However, we can share our view of the mountain and our view of the moon. And the way we feel about the mountain and the moon and various catastrophes, that can be transformed by studying karma. That's what I'm understanding teaching to say, that we can develop a view of our relationship that's very wholesome and very beneficial. And it comes from studying what our view is now.

[107:53]

Even if we see it in a wholesome view, if we study it, our vision improves. We see more and more about the situation. And wholesome and unwholesome, we understand, is selflessness. Unwholesome patterns of consciousness are selfless. The causation of unwholesomeness is selfless. Wholesomeness is selfless, and the causation of wholesomeness is selfless. If you watch wholesome and unwholesome, you will realize emptiness. And you will realize emptiness through paying attention to karma, not just realize emptiness like, you know, there's nothing. But through diligent study of your action, you realize emptiness. Everett? I'm sorry, can I say something? Okay. The difficulty for me has always been, in absence of any sort of intention, I just fall on the side of determinism. In the absence of an over-intention, there's no such thing as time. Sorry? There's no such thing as time. You obviously see there's intention, like in England, for example, that any very conscious intention that I just fall on the side of determines at the same time.

[109:03]

In the case you're talking about, I say, this is a dying country. And it's no surprise, because look at our response to all these... All the situations have been put in the past 20, 30 years of our discovery. Yeah. OK. But you said in the absence of an overt intention, there's no such time. This one, you can't see it. Well, I can't see. Yeah. And the over-intention is to have a bad country? So anyway, I don't know if you mean by an absence of overt intention. That's a key point to me. what it means is that doing these these two different levels i guess i'm talking about if there's any intention that i can i can understand cause and effect is just very easy for me to swallow but for example a rebirth if you're going to have a beneficial reaper or a non-beneficial reaper i can't

[110:05]

I mean, I can't, it's difficult for me to see a very obvious intention is my intention to be reborn in a certain way. So that just makes me reluctant to attend. Okay, well, intentions about rebirth may never occur to a person. It's possible that a diligent practitioner would never have any intentions about rebooking their whole practice time. That just wouldn't be the agenda for them. It just never occurred. Never thought about it. But they pay attention to all their intentions that they do have, and then beneficial things will happen. That's the idea. I see David who's saying it's time to stop with this. I said poor Everett. Poor Everett, yeah. Deborah Everett. Well, I had to bring up the .

[111:09]

Okay. It's pretty big. Okay. And the damage is pretty big? No. Okay. In reference to what you're just talking about, it seems like, for instance, in the case of New Orleans, there was an opportunity for a different outcome in that whole situation, which was based on information that Peter's had and Dean's had. And the outcome is very bad as a result of inaction or not taking what we know, you know, what we see. And so it seems to me that in the evolution of human consciousness, the more we see that, you know, the more we can create a society that does take that into account and does benefit ourselves even in situations where it does occur. Yeah, right. it's possible that even if the catastrophe had still come, that there would have been a feeling of lots of wholesome karma in that terrible situation.

[112:13]

There still might have been people getting hurt and buildings being smashed, you know. There's not going to be an end to that kind of thing. The Earth's going to keep changing. Like in Hawaii, they have volcanoes all the time. But it's possible to have compassionate response in the midst of a hurricane, to have compassionate response, which means to immediately think about how to help people. And you can do that because you've been thinking about that a lot. So it's not like suddenly you start thinking about people when there's a hurricane. You're already on that page. Here comes a hurricane, and that people feel like, well, it was terrible, but we were cared for. Everybody did their best. And so it was horrible, but it was wonderful, too. Sometimes that happens, right? And everybody feels good about the way people handle a catastrophe. That does sometimes happen. And that's what we can hope for, not hope for, but commit to, is

[113:14]

skillful response to this world of change. And skillful response depends on looking at the level of skillfulness in our own mind. It starts there. And the tradition is also saying that there's this thing about as you start to watch this, be careful of or know that the birth and death thing is not so solid and it's not really limited, this meditation. That's the way I feel about it. It's that if you feel any obstruction to the meditation due to the issue of life and death, then the tradition's opening that up for you so that you don't have to have any — you don't have to let birth and death discourage you in meditating on birth and death — I mean, meditating on karma. We can do that through any transformation. It's possible. And I think we all have big transformations ahead of us

[114:18]

So I want a practice that will take us through all these transformations, take us through blindness, cancer, Alzheimer's, whatever, you know, earthquakes, tidal waves, cruelty from other people towards us and towards each other, that we would be able to meditate in such a way that we could bring skillfulness and kindness and clarity and freedom to the situation. And meditating on karmic cause and effect is essential, I think. You know, we should tell us what time to go to the... Pretty obvious, I guess. So try to be up at the Zendo as soon as your busy schedule is allowed.

[115:14]

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