Earlier in this retreat, I asked the question echoing the Scripture, if bodhisattva wishes to cultivate the heroic stride samadhi, what dharmas, what things. And the Buddha answers that if a bodhisattva wishes to realize this samadhi, he should cultivate the dharmas of an ordinary person.

[01:09]

If he sees that the dharmas of an ordinary person are neither united with nor separate from the dharma of a Buddha, then he is cultivating the heroic stride Samadhi. we may not yet see, we may not yet understand fully that the things of an ordinary person, that the things of ordinary people are neither joined nor disjoined things of the Buddhas. When we see that, then we're cultivating the samadhi.

[02:14]

In a sense, before we see it, when we're cultivating the things we're kind of preparing for cultivating the samadhi. But if we're taking care of the things of an ordinary person, still without understanding that the things of an ordinary person are not united with the things of a Buddha, nor are they separate. Even if we don't understand it, they still are not united and not separate. This is a fact according to this samadhi. When an ordinary person sits in an ordinary way, this phenomena of sitting is not joined to nor separate from the things of the Buddha.

[04:22]

The person sitting is not apart from the sitting of a Buddha. The person sitting is not apart from the walking and talking of a Buddha. If a person is not sitting, If a person is standing or walking, this standing person or this walking person is also not apart from the standing and walking of the Buddha. There are no walking Buddhas apart from our walking.

[05:58]

How do we understand, how do we penetrate the fact that the things of an ordinary person are not united or separate from the things of a Buddha? We do it by practicing the things of an ordinary person. In our daily activity, which during this week is sitting in this room quite a bit, walking around the temple grounds, and other activities, these activities, these ordinary activities, they are done with a grandmotherly mindfulness.

[09:57]

I want to take care of the Buddha, the things of a Buddha, by these ordinary activities. Whether I take care of these things of the Buddha, whether I'm mindful in all my activities of a Buddha at the same time. Whether I'm mindful of that or not, the things of the Buddha are not separate from what I'm doing, nor are they joined. They are not other than my activity, and now my activity is not it. I take care of this, and this is the Buddha way.

[11:22]

Although the Buddha and the Buddha way are perfect and all-pervading, still, unless unless you take care of it, there is no Buddha way. It's not like you don't take care of it and somebody else here takes care of it, so there is a Buddha way someplace. The only way the Buddha way lives fully is if you take care of it. in this dynamic, wholehearted way. While you're doing whatever you're doing, that there's no kind of wonderful Buddha someplace else.

[12:27]

Buddha and they're totally sincere sometimes and they even know what they're talking about but that's not there's no such thing separate from turning this page of the scripture and turning it back again When you take care of paper like that, that's the Buddha way. If you don't, there's no other Buddha way. And at that moment, the Buddha way perishes. But, like all things, not annihilated,

[13:44]

So you get another chance each moment. We can take care of our moment-by-moment activity with this mindfulness. Sometimes we say like taking care of our own eyes, but even more than your own eyes, taking care of the eyes of your grandchildren. Taking care of the most precious thing gives us a hint of what it's like to take care of our activity. To make sure that we are wholeheartedly mindful of how our activity is helping the Buddha way live.

[14:48]

Our activity is given 100% only to that. Even though the way is passive and perfect, It does not live unless we practice. And there's no Buddha way other than the practice, even though our practice is pretty puny a lot of the time. But if we do it with this attitude, there's no other practice. So this puny practice is the place where the Buddha way is now thriving. Last time I talked to her on Sunday, I talked about my grandson, and my daughter heard about it.

[15:59]

Hey, tell me what you said, and I just couldn't remember. She doesn't get to hear all these stories about her kid. So anyway, I told you, and I didn't tell you, I told you about Sunday afternoon when we were down in the garden. We're coming back up through the garden, and Risa says, what's that? And he says, she points to the statue of Amalokiteshvar on the road, the garden road, and he says, Buddha. And we said to him, do you want to bow to the Buddha? And he said, no. He started bowing early at the dinner table. And he does bow every now and then. He may come to see.

[17:01]

But anyway, he said no. So I bowed. Just standing there on the road, I bowed. And he watched me. It wasn't a very good bow in a way. just to kind of, standing there in the road, a little bow to the Bodhisattva. And then I walked away. Then he bowed. And so then I came back and joined him bowing. This grandmotherly attention to our daily activity makes our daily activity into monastic training.

[18:13]

If people looking into this room would see us and see us through the rest of the day, some of them would think we're doing monastic ceremonies. monastic ceremonies of sitting in a traditional yogic posture, facing a wall or a floor, together with others. It's a monastic training, training one thing, training one thing. We call it the Buddha way or the middle way. You're working together, you're helping others, learn the Buddha way by learning about themselves, about their activity, and learning about whether they are mindful of taking care of the Buddha way through their activity, or making their activity the Buddha way.

[19:29]

Are we learning to do that? And are we learning that we have a little thought in our mind that there's something else besides, that there's some other Buddhism besides our activity? And that old story at the end, that's quoted at the end of the Genjo Koan, Ba Jie fanning himself, The monk comes up to him and says, the nature of wind is that it's permanent and reaches everywhere. So why do you fan yourself, Master? And Bhauje said, you understand that the nature of wind is permanent, but you don't understand that it reaches everywhere.

[20:34]

What is the meaning of it reaching everywhere? In bhaje, fandom. The buddha way is all pervasive and perfect, and it reaches everywhere. And when it reaches everywhere, you practice. And when it reaches everywhere and you don't practice, you don't realize that it's reaching everywhere. But it does everywhere. So you do practice. You are practicing. But if you don't be mindful of this, you don't understand that it reaches everywhere. But it does. you can't do anything to stop it from reaching everywhere.

[21:44]

And you can't do anything to make it reach everywhere. It already does. But if you don't do this thing called practice, which you don't do, if you don't give yourself to the practice which is already occurring, to the Buddha way which is already reaching the world as your activity. Now some of you are sitting cross-legged and others are sitting knee-holding-legged. And in some monasteries you're not supposed to During lectures, you're supposed to sit cross-legged during the lecture in full lotus. But even if you're not sitting in full lotus, Buddha way is permanent and all-pervading.

[23:04]

It's reaching in your posture. But are you grandmotherly caring for your posture as the way the Buddha Dharma is reaching the world now? If you are, then you understand how it reaches. Does this kind of talk relate to another kind of talk which has been going around, the kind of talk of meet whatever comes with complete relaxation?

[24:17]

If we can relax, we have a chance to play. with whatever is happening. How does this relate to, for example, you're involved in some daily activity and you relax while you're involved in the daily activity, daily activity of breathing, sensing pain or pleasure, sitting up straight, thinking many thoughts? How does relaxing in the midst of such phenomena and thereby being able to enter into playfulness, how does it relate to this grandmotherly heart, to this grandmotherly mindfulness?

[25:31]

Do you see how they relate? In play, we have a chance to see how the way we are made, we have a chance to see how we co-arise. Seeing dependent co-arising, we see the Buddhas together transmitting the inconceivable Dharma. playing freely in the samadhi, playing freely, being relaxed, playing freely in the samadhi of an ordinary person who is not separate from or united with the Buddhas.

[27:14]

The Buddhas together not separate from or united with each other. They are transmitting inconceivable dharma together. And they send word of their activity to us. I'm a messenger from them telling you what they're up to right now. They're entering into and playing in their non-separation and non-joining with each other and with us.

[28:18]

We've got some daily activities, no shortage of those. Now we make them into monastic exercises by wholeheartedly devoting ourselves to having them be our way to enter this transmission of the Dharma. And my words are offered a resource for you to feel permitted to relax and be playful with the things of an ordinary person, cultivating the things of an ordinary person in a relaxed and playful way.

[29:39]

help us penetrate into their non-separation and non-joining with the Buddha things. But do you need anything else so that you may relax and enter? Do you lack any resource that would make you Dare to relax and play in this samadhi. If you do, please say so. Maybe we can find it. If you don't, then you're all set.

[30:50]

And you can just sit, just stand and see that this ordinary activity is intimately related with the Buddha activity. And again, intimate means it's not intimate to be separate and it's not intimate to be joined. Intimacy is neither. It's already going on. What do you need to enter? Yes?

[31:57]

I understand why intimacy is not separate, but I don't understand why intimacy is not joined. If you would, like, tie yourself to them, okay? So, you know, I don't know, the rope or whatever could be various lengths, but if you would tie yourself to them, that would help you understand how that's not intimacy. So being bound to them might help you understand that being bound to them is not the intimacy. Okay? Can you see how that might occur? I can see that if you were bound to somebody, you could either be intimate with them or not, depending on your attitude. Well, we are intimate.

[33:01]

That's not an option. Okay, the intimacy is already the fact. Okay, so not being separate from them, that makes sense to you, that that's not, that that would go with intimacy. What you don't understand is that if you were joined with them, that that wouldn't be intimacy. The intimacy is not like, what do you call it, it's not a bond. I mean, it's not a bond like a chain or a rope. But if you are chained to somebody or roped to somebody, you would discover your bond in the process, and it wouldn't be the rope. Do you understand? If you were bound... Like if you were bound to somebody here for a while, the rope is not your bond.

[34:07]

It's not the way you're actually intimate with each other. But the rope might help you find that. That's why getting together in a situation like this where we agree to some precepts help us realize our actual, you know, intimacy. But it's not because we're tied together. It's because we're interdependent. And a rope might help you realize how interdependent you are with somebody. When they want to go to the bathroom, you have to go to the bathroom. And it would help if they would tell you that they were going to go, so you can get ready to move. And then you have to figure out what to do when you get there, and so on. But the rope isn't the joining. The joining of you isn't the intimacy. The rope or the joining would be easy. Intimacy would be rather challenging because it's so dynamic.

[35:14]

Are there two things in intimacy or just one? Are there two things in intimacy or just one? There's just one. What is it? What's the one thing in intimacy? Detachment. Detachment. Yeah, there's detachment in intimacy. Is that surprising to you? Little. Little? I wouldn't say relationship or love. Relationship or love? So there's some people who we have a relationship with, and so the proposal is that among the relationships you have, the ones that don't have attachment.

[36:22]

And the ones where there is attachment, attachment is being pointed to as obscuring the intimacy. But obscuring the intimacy can also tip us off to the intimacy. So is a joint as... Pardon? If you're a joint, you are... there's attachment. Yeah, kind of, if you're a joint, there's kind of attachment. So we're not joined to the Buddhas, but we're not separate from the Buddhas. Also we say, what is it, turning away and touching are both wrong. Touching the Buddha is wrong. Turning away, those aren't our true relationship, our true relationships neither. For it's like a massive fire.

[37:32]

But how do you have the proper relationship with this massive fire? neither separate nor conjoined. Tenzo? Temporary tenzo? What? Spontaneous presence. Yeah. Spontaneous non-attachment. Did you say detachment, by the way? Did you say detachment? Detachment. I was supposed to say unattachment. No, non-attachment. Non-attachment. Did you say non-attachment? No. What did you say? I said detachment. Yeah, let's just say change to non-attachment. Okay? Yes? I'm just trying to get the difference. Between D and non-attachment? Like it's not there. Okay, so... These are a little coarse.

[38:36]

Huh? Yeah. Yeah. So non-attachment is... There is one dynamic, though, in relationships. Attachment usually does come up and then you let it go by detaching. It's not just non-attachment on its own. That's how I find my... Participatory. wholehearted attention to the non-attachment of our relationships. Again, like with my grandson, I pay a lot of attention to non-attachment with him. It's a big issue. Especially when he's around. Like I went to say goodbye to him the other day, he was I don't know where I was going. Anyway, he was still in bed. He just woke up. I was going to do some kind of Buddhist thing.

[39:41]

So I went to kiss him goodbye, and he pushed me away. Yeah. So where is it? at that time. It's there, the intimacy is there. Now where is it? Yeah. Now some grandmas are out to get kisses, it's true. But this grandmotherly mind is the mind that wants to kiss the grandson goodbye and take care of the Buddha at the same time. And it's there, how do we enter?

[40:47]

Is there a hand over there? Just one? Could you raise the other one too? Yes? Neither. I think of intimacy as not hiding, so what if attachment is not hidden? And I feel that that can show the intimacy if it's open, if it's confessed. You feel that if you confess your attachment, that that helps to develop intimacy? Sounds pretty good. But, you know, the other people about what codependence is and

[42:03]

I was kind of saying that it seems like if you confess your addiction to somebody or if you're with somebody who has some addiction that they're involved in and you tell them that you feel they're involved in that and you have trouble with it, then you don't have a codependent relationship. But someone pointed out that you still could be up to some kind of secret business there So you've got to be careful when you confess your attachment, confess your attachment to a Zen teacher, you might actually be confessing your attachment to get something from the teacher, like, oh, you're a good confessor. So there still might be some, and they use the word, I believe, collusion, even in honestly acknowledging the addiction. And then we looked up the word collusion and the root of the word collusion is to play together.

[43:13]

But the denotative meaning of collusion is fire in secret. So we're actually breathing together, living together with the Buddhas and with each other But when we're in collusion, we're about how we're playing. So confessing our attachments, a good start. And is there any hidden play there? So if we can disclose fully our playfulness, our lack of playfulness, which is attachment, controlling, trying to get some outcome then I think the confession would be even more intimate.

[44:18]

How is not playing controlling? I mean, how is controlling not playing? You're not playing when you're trying to, when you're trying to, you know, achieve an end. But if something's, let's say, addictive. If something's addictive? Right. I mean, if you're using something to, as in, as in, as in... The relationship or the secret playfulness that you talk about. Yes. If that play gets stopped, how is that... I think could mean that it was controlling. If we stop a certain situation that is not helping,

[45:33]

If you stop a certain situation which is not healthy, yes, then what? You used the word codependent control along with play and relaxation. Right. I'm trying to understand how that all works. I'm confused. So the way you were just talking was kind of playful. The way when you relax with the situation of, for example, hiding the playfulness of the relationship. So let's say we're not admitting how we're playing. And we're using the relationship, for example, to maintain some program.

[46:43]

Like maintain the program of, I'm an alcoholic, or maintain the program of, I'm a good wife, or a good husband. These are certain programs we might be trying to maintain. Admitting how we're playing this game with somebody And when we relax and start to become playful, we loosen up the deceit and start to get in touch with the playfulness of the situation. And as we get in touch with the playfulness of the situation, our role... And the one who is the addict and the one who is the supporter, those things start to become undermined. And actually, you've got to be relaxed because this is very dynamic. This kind of change, this... Your sense of the world is demonstrating its impermanence to you. Your inner sense and your outer sense start to move and change.

[47:52]

So, how do you mean by change? I mean, by play, it's not exactly I can say what play is, but it's the way we act, it's the way we start to notice we are, When we relax, it starts happening like we start getting surprised, and we start feeling more and more vulnerable. We start to feel the precariousness our world

[49:02]

We start to feel the precariousness of our sense of what's going on and what the external world is. And there's activity in this place. And it's the way we are when we're between the way we usually figure out how we are So if you ask me to say what play is, then if I respond to you to give you a better then I'm putting you in the bleachers of the playground. Because the play actually happens between your sense of what play is and my sense of what play is and what I say play is and you hear about and understand And then I say, yes, that's right. So then we have this shared idea of what play is.

[50:05]

Plus we have our own individual ideas about what play is. But all that is not play. That's just your ideas, my ideas, and some shared idea. Spontaneous. It's not about checking out. Yes, and you just asked me what it was. You just try to check it out, which is fine. And I'm telling you that I hesitate to say what it is. I'm more interested in what can happen and how it can happen. We don't have to say how it happens. Also to ask, what is love? We don't have to say what it is. We're trying to set up the situation for it. What is intimacy? We're trying to set up the situation for it. Intimacy... How do we set up the situation for it? Well, there's some hints. Not conjoined and not separate.

[51:08]

Not my idea, not your idea, and not our idea. So, we have some shared ideas about what Buddha is. We could, like, establish him, like, is Buddha compatible? What do you say, folks? Yeah. So, okay, we got that down. Is Buddha wise? Is Buddha skillful? Sure. Somebody disagrees? Okay, we don't agree. But at least we got the wisdom and compassion down. Is Buddha short? Is Buddha 16 feet tall? Does Buddha have a golden body? We agree. Oh, that's Buddha. But each of us has our own sense of it, which nobody else agrees with. This is the setup. You have an inner reality. She has an inner reality. She has an inner reality. She has an inner reality. He has an inner reality.

[52:10]

I have an inner reality. He has an inner reality. And we have shared realities. Like probably most of us would agree we're in the zendo. The play is giving up, let go of, relax with the zendo. Relax with your inner sense. Play can happen in that space between when you relax with your realities. And that's where intimacy happens. Because when you start to play, if you can play with somebody else, you start to realize creativity of your relationship. And there's where the intimacy is. which you can call love, too, if you want to. But love sometimes means attachment to some people.

[53:12]

Does that make any sense? Yeah? Earlier you said You asked us if there was any resource we lacked for experiencing things in the ordinary person in a playful and relaxed way. Yes. And I thought it seems like authentic experience of playing relaxed, playful and relaxed. a playful and relaxed experience, you need to have some sort of sustained experience of that. And that could be lacking if you've got a lifetime of conditioning of not playful and relaxed. Yes. You've got a resource to suggest for that.

[54:13]

Yes, so if you haven't been able to relax, as far as you can tell, and haven't been able to play, then what does a person like that need in order to be able to relax? Well, they need somebody who knows how to play to come and meet them. But the person who knows how to play won't necessarily be able to teach them how to play in one lesson. But they do need to meet. So you need to meet somebody who wants to meet you. And then the question is, when you're with the person,

[55:13]

Do you feel, by meeting them, that there's something you can do that would help you relax? And if you can't meet them, is there anything that would help you go to meet them? So right now, for example, you're kind of meeting me and a bunch of other people. Is there anything you need to relax right now? The attention off of me. The attention off of you? Would be very helpful. It would help you relax? Yes. Okay. The attention is now off her. I had another question. If one has a relationship of love with anything, whether it be another person or an activity or something one cares deeply about. And that might be a very non-attached kind of love, a selfless love.

[56:19]

What's that thing, if you lose that thing or that person dies, you suffer. And I guess I've tried to understand how one can have non-attachment in relationships, certainly, but do we only suffer because we are attached to them? I'm not saying you shouldn't be the way you are, and I haven't heard Buddha say you shouldn't be the way you are, but just that when you're this way you suffer, and when you're that way you don't. I haven't heard of Buddha suffering when someone dies. I do hear a Buddha suffering when someone who's dying suffers while they're dying. Buddha shares your suffering, but Buddha doesn't suffer because of the same reasons that you're suffering.

[57:22]

But Buddha shares your suffering. So the Buddha basically, when the Buddha sees you, the Buddha says, welcome. And when you leave, you're welcome. Or, well gone. Nice going. Mentally and physically, if you just stay near something for a while, particularly physically, some part of your body probably something in your body like starts to associate with the thing. Like some people, you know, when they change milk manner, they get upset. So, the Buddha does not grieve people dying.

[58:34]

The Buddha hasn't lost them, and the Buddha didn't gain them. When the Buddha met them, the Buddha didn't get something. And when the Buddha became Buddha, the Buddha didn't get something. The Buddha is basically understanding that we don't get anything. And that understanding that there's nothing to get is not separate from the people who think there's something to get. So the people who think there's something to get are intimate with the understanding that there's nothing to get. We are intimate with the understanding that there's nothing to get and nothing to lose. And for us, grieving helps us get ready to be intimate with not getting, not losing anything. So grieving is medicine for those who don't see their actual intimacy with not gaining, not getting, and not losing.

[59:56]

But we're never going to get any closer or farther from non-gain and non-loss. We're always intimate with it in this dynamic way. Intimacy is very dynamic. It's none of the possible relations we can imagine. But we do have, if we're healthy, we have the medicine of grief to antidote. our attachment to what is gone. Buddha is not attached to what appears to have gone. You said the Buddha suffers in his compassion. The Buddha can't suffer in his compassion. The Buddha is intimate with our suffering. The Buddha intimately suffers.

[61:00]

more intimately than some other people who are very close to us and who think they got something when they met us, and who are in our suffering, or maybe who are attached to our happy self and have trouble with our sad, our unhappy self, our sick self. But they do love us. They are attached to us. But they're not intimate with us. And that's part of what's frightening about intimacy, is that if we get intimate with someone, we notice that we wouldn't grieve the person going away. We wouldn't grieve this lovely young person becoming old.

[62:10]

We would let the person grow old. We wouldn't grieve this person going... We shouldn't say we wouldn't grieve. We're not attached to this person. We're the same. We will be intimate with them no matter what they go into, no matter what they change, how they change. we will be devoted to that manifestation. And in being a person, but we're actually primarily devoted to the Buddha in this relationship. Now, as an ordinary person, we have these habits which either were sometimes seen to be almost more devoted to the appearance of this person than realizing the Buddha in the relationship. So he confessed that.

[63:13]

To be devoted to intimacy rather than attached to the appearance. And we're somewhat afraid of that. Even though we have some positive regard for the idea of intimacy, that does mean that we would actually contemplate being a person who would be up for whatever the person became and be up for the cessation of their current appearance. The ordinary person has a lot of trouble with that. The ordinary person has a lot of trouble with the child, your child getting a scratch on their cheek. It's very difficult rather than being intimate with them. And we say, well, how am I going to protect the child from having a scratch on the cheek?

[64:32]

Well, anyway, people seem to already know about that route. That's the ordinary route. That's the ordinary person who is trying to figure out how you can protect your children from getting scratches on their cheek. Can Buddha protect people from getting scratches on their cheeks? And I don't say, yes, they can. I say Buddha is to be intimate with people. And if they're getting scratches on their cheek, to be intimate with them. That's the Buddha part. Buddha is not engineering the world, as you can see, to prevent people from getting scratches. People are getting scratches, to various degrees. Sometimes people get scratched out.

[65:49]

Buddha does not prevent this. Buddha is not controlling the creation of the universe. Buddha's teaching how to see creativity and be free in the midst of scratches and not scratches. Meantime, there's plenty of ordinary people concerned with how to prevent scratches. And sometimes we feel that way. We're very concerned. But do we abandon the Buddha in our caring to prevent scratches? It's not necessary. If we can enter this samadhi, we don't have to be taking care of Buddha, even while we are concerned with preventing scratches or putting antibiotic cream on scratches. The ordinary person is not excluded from this samadhi.

[66:57]

But while we're being concerned in this way, are we meditating on the non-duality of the person who's concerned with this worldly affair, this ordinary thing, and the individual, the one who is what? who is seeing and maintaining the actual intimacy of the relationship. Which means that even if there is a scratch, there can be freedom from suffering. And even if there isn't a scratch, there can be freedom from suffering. That's the ball that's hard to keep the eye on. And the non-duality

[68:02]

And that's what Dogen was asking Gikai to work on. Because Gikai was like really good at preventing scratches. He took really good care of the monastery. He was very talented at taking care of the monastery. Better than Buddha. Almost no scratches in the monastery while he was, ordinary thing. But what he thought, he thought, actually, that there was some Buddha other than this ordinary person. He actually was very good at being an ordinary person. He was the best ordinary person among all Dogen's disciples. Dogen's disciple Eijo, his first disciple, was not as good at taking care of the monastery. He asked this young person to take care of the monastery because this young person was so good, was better at being an ordinary person than anybody.

[69:13]

But he thought this person who was very good at being an ordinary monk, actually an extraordinary ordinary monk, he, that extraordinary monk, thought that there was some Buddhism other than an ordinary person practicing. And Dogen said, in order to enter this transmission of the teaching, you have to take more of this grandmotherly mind. You have to take care of the intimacy with Buddha while you're taking care of the monastery to enter into the for the transmission process, and I'm certain you will," he said. And if I come back from Kyoto, I will be able to do this ceremony with you." But he didn't come back.

[70:18]

So Gikkai didn't become Dogen's disciple. But he did finally understand this point pretty well. Yes? It has gotten into my mind. If you may stop me. I'll stop you now then. Did you say no? Wait a second. You just said any time. You just said any time. I take you up on it. You're stopping now. I do. I think this is a good time. You shouldn't have said that.

[71:27]

Yeah. Right. Actually, I think it was really nice that you said that. I appreciate it. Do you want me to make an exposition? I think it's pretty good. Do you want me to make an exposition? I don't want to, but I just wondered if you want me to. Pardon? Yeah, well, I don't want to. Okay, well, I won't make an exposition then. Okay? Is that all right with you? No. It's not? What's the matter with it? You're making me really angry. I am? I'm making you angry? You're extremely angry? Very. Have you fully expressed your anger? You have my permission to do so.

[72:32]

You do, yeah, I'm a big boy. I have a broken leg, but you know. No, I trust myself. No, it isn't quite that. Pardon? I'm kidding. Fine, that's what I... Do you want to play or do you want to make an exposition? I don't want to make an exposition. I'd rather play. Okay, have you been playing with me? Have you been playing with me? Yes and no. Are you ready to let go of the no? Yes. OK, great.

[73:17]

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