Well, if you have no other things you'd like to bring up, let's do some walking at it, yeah? Please come up. Judy? I had an experience the other day that I feel like I want to share it. When we did that exercise this morning and we suggested that when we say our name that we get really present and experience what it feels like to stand up and say our name and sit down. And immediately what I went to is I'm a public speaker and I take workshops and I facilitate. So I had the, oh, no, that's easy. And then I thought, well, you know, I don't want to... I don't want to step into that story of Judy the public speaker. I want to really experience it fresh. And I would say for the first two-thirds of my life, my story was that I was shy and afraid. And then I actually changed.

[01:02]

I mean, it's what I do for my work, and I love it. But now the story is Judy comfortable speaking. And there's a freedom lost in that too. So I decided I would just see what happened and just be fresh with it. be who I am when I get in front of the group. Not that that's not authentic, but I know how to manage that. I know how to manage the anxiety. And so I did. And I got up. And I think someone over here said something about childlike or mischievous. And that's how I felt. I felt free and childlike. And I sat down and thought, wow, that was different. And the sense that I had in listening to everyone talk about the anxiety Like, I feel really anxious right now. But not from the speaking, it's from being this close to you. You can see I'm not as enlightened as you are.

[02:03]

And that's exactly what the... See, now I feel better that I said that. We all do. So what I realized is that I learned how to tame that anxiety. really freed me up to the experience. And that's why I enjoy speaking in front of groups. And what I also realized is how much that anxiety interferes with so many other areas of my life that I haven't read quite as I did there. Like this right now, I feel totally present now that I admitted to that. So it was a great experience. It was really good for me to see where I feel paralyzed and how I've been able to move that in an area of my life. So hopefully this will help you learn to do it. You're welcome. And, you know, what I've been doing for some time is trying not to be a drug slipper.

[03:13]

which is to try to come into a situation to talk to people without bringing anything with me to talk to them. And I feel it's dangerous because I might not have anything to talk about. I mean, or what I have to say might be really irrelevant or uninteresting or difficult to deal with. So then I'm endangering myself because I might be difficult for people if I'm just kind of like... And yet, if I bring something really neat, although it's neat, and people probably say, thanks, that was neat, it's not as a lie. And also, other people can't... participate and I have an advantage because I've got something to talk about so I'm trying to do that even though I'm kind of comfortable speaking I'm quite comfortable speaking like something I've prepared but it's not alive unfortunately and what's alive and although it's not

[04:39]

...on everybody. Easy on me, easy on you. You just sit back and listen to something fairly interesting. Maybe informative. Not too hard, but for me it's... But for me, although I could tell this... Like, for example, I could tell you... ...who's a mother, right? And that would be informative. You'd be hearing about my daughter. But if I... bring the story of my daughter with me to tell you so that i i'm safe because i got this nice story about my daughter then that is alive as if i come not having anything and then mr and i don't know if you can follow the sequence or if that makes sense to you but in fact that's what comes and what i'm finding is that it actually people can tolerate it and people can deal with what's coming rather than are prepared with this easy but dead, or easy but relatively dead.

[05:44]

They can deal with it. But each time, it's like I can barely believe that I'm doing it and that people can stand it. So what I like, in a way, is to be able to offer workshops and say, you know, the title of the workshop is, guess what's going to happen. And, you know, when I explain it, he says, I will show up. I will come. I'll be there for the whole workshop. That's what I'll do. And beyond that, I really don't know what's going to happen. And then you see who comes to that. I bet it would work, too. At least I would come. Huh? That did you come to expect?

[06:47]

Yeah. Amanda, Charles, Diana. Hello. Hello. I have a little story here. I love to come to your workshop. Can you hear her okay? I love to come to Rev's workshop and have company. And I have this story that I usually don't speak in groups. So I decided I should come up here and tell you my story. Yeah, about the story channel. Good. That's it. That's it? Yeah. Okay. Charles? I have the same story.

[08:00]

Part of it. What's the story? I'm not wanting to speak in groups, so I thought I'd better come up and do that because it's time. But I actually have a second question, which came from Judy's question or comment about being a public speaker. And that is that I write. Are you a poet? Yes. Is Carolyn your wife? Yes. Oh. Former wife. Former wife. Okay. And I feel like when I'm engaged in that activity of writing, I am trying to be as present as I can be. But it becomes, of course, and oftentimes I'm asked to read those artifacts. And it's a dilemma for me. And you spoke to it in terms of your wish to be present and make each one new. I don't think I'm ready to stand up and create poems every time someone wants me to.

[09:01]

So I'm not sure how to be with this vocation and with my practice at the same time, irrespective. Well, what came to mind is you could read your poem standing on your head. Or like, actually, I ruin poems, I think, holding on to a pillar circling around it. So maybe if you read the poems, hanging onto a pillar, circling around, or if you danced while you read it, that might loosen it up a little bit so you weren't like, to freshen it up if you're not ready. And then gradually, as you read your poem, maybe at the end of a poem, you just keep going sometimes. Because that's what he did. He just started swinging around the, they say anyway, just started swinging around the pillar, and the poems came out of him. Huh? spinning around the pillar. Yeah, that's how the dances came about, right.

[10:02]

So you might start moving while you're doing your reading, reciting your poetry in some way, and then maybe you will start making poems on the spot. Okay. Was that a poem? I sure tried to. Please come up. OK, I think this is the round for all the class. You have a hard time speaking in front of the group. Can you hear her? You can't hear me? I'm just kind of following up with the round, but all of us, we in front of groups. And I like, Julie had the story that that was one of the hardest things for me to do, hard things for me to do until I became a professor.

[11:10]

So most of what I do is in front of a large group of people I don't really know very well. And since this morning after the exercise, I realize there is something different about this group. It doesn't feel the same as standing in front of a group of students or a group of strangers talking about something I know. What is calling me from the front is something very different. It's actually the fear of being seen daily. It's kind of hard for me to hold it because both the craving is exactly what I want and at the same time it's exactly what I feel the most. It's the two elements. And there's no other way of reconciling both. You don't see any other way? Of reconciling both ends unless I sit here and do it.

[12:12]

It's the only way of doing it. Yeah, it's the only way of doing it. You know, I grew up in the middle of the United States, in Minnesota, and I left my life there to come to San Francisco to study Zen. A Zen teacher named... Suzuki Roshi. And I... I was very... I was always around Zen Center. You know, I was always in the Zen Do. I was always with lectures. I was always, you know, nearby him. If he ever needed me for anything, I was right there. And... So he gradually realized that I was always right nearby so he would and he sometimes needed something so he would come and get it from me.

[13:18]

So I wanted to be near him and I wanted him to see me and I wanted to be near him. Sometimes though he would call me not to do something for him or help him with something but simply to look at me. And that's exactly what I wanted but as soon as I was with him either looking at me or teaching me something, I would always try to get away because somehow I couldn't stand getting this attention, which was what I set my whole life up to get. But he usually wouldn't let me get away. I would say, well, I'll let you go. Thank you very much. I know you have other things to do. And he'd say, no, stay. And he would just... So... that's the environment in some ways where it happens is where you want to be seen and you can't stand to be seen but you don't run away you get seen trying to run away too that's seen too but he also called me because he knew I wanted him to call me so now that I'm 30 years later

[14:37]

I'm in his position, and people come across the country, or from foreign countries even, to come and sit in front of me, and then they get in the room, and they try to get away now. Well, thank you. I'll go now. It's a funny thing, but there's something about us that's just like that. May I go now? OK. Yeah, Dale. Well, I was impressed by when Judy came up. And she and I are life partners and business partners. And so I was inspired, as a couple of other people seem to be. There was a flurry of activity. Judy and I actually do the same work together and what I'm amazed at is how I've been speaking in front of groups for years now.

[15:59]

I thought I've had this story that when I feel comfortable around groups, which is a lot, it's because I've allowed myself some new persona. Because actually, I find that I'm a rather introvert myself. This is the story. I give myself a lot of license in front of groups. But what's fascinating to me is how terribly nervous I get in this kind of setting where I don't have anything prepared. And when you talk about that. And it reminds me of one of the reasons that I've been here four or five times. I've studied a martial art called Aikido for about half a dozen years. And Aikido is maddening in that, in one sense, that you are trying for any kind of energy that comes to you.

[17:03]

And the idea is that all energy that comes to you is a gift, whether it's intended that way or not. Yeah, Aikido means loving energy. Yes, exactly. And the thing that's different about that There's a lot of parallels that I've been thinking about because the idea that way different than most martial arts is that if anybody gets hurt, you fail. And so it's not managing violence, it's about reducing violence. It's about the middle path. I just wanted to say that the realization that I had this morning was that I think it's not that when I feel comfortable in front of a group, It's not anything that I am doing singularly. It's not that I've taken on some new persona or given myself permission. I think what's happened is that field of love. And in that particular field, all things are possible.

[18:09]

And so I had a really different experience of that today just doing a little exercise. So I appreciate that. Yes. Do you name Anurag? Murita, that's it. Anurag. Are you Anurag? Murita. That means joy. Great. Expose yourself. Expose yourself loudly. Yeah, to exercise speaking into this mind. But I also have something I wanted to bring up. You mentioned that, and you said that many times, that if we get intimate with anxiety, then the anxiety will go away.

[19:18]

It might not go away, but you'll become free of it. Okay. And in my life, I had to deal with fear a lot as a consequence of a trauma that I had when I was 11 years old. And the residual feeling from that is that often I get caught in the sense of being doomed. And sometimes there are trouble and I have to die. And it comes in waves. I'm in it sometimes for a couple of months, and then I'm not having that. But I've often had the opportunity to be very intimate with it, actually. And I know it in and out. And I never had that experience. that I was free of it.

[20:19]

Yes, I've gotten more distance from it, but the fear itself is still the same. What's the difference between fear for you? What's the difference between fear and anxiety? Fear is maybe more intense. It's a different thing. For me, the way I use the word fear is that anxiety is more intense than the fear, and the fear is easier to deal with because it's somewhat objectified. So for me, fear has to do with imagining something that what is happening. That's the way I use it. Fear is not about what's happening right now. Fear is about what's going to happen next. Is that how you used to be? Yeah. Well, I was telling what the experience was that I had, and I always imagined that something like that would come back to me. Even though it's like a story, and I don't like to tell the story anymore, but the experience is still in my cellular fabric, and it's still with me.

[21:31]

So when I was 11, I was caught in a burning house, and... My parents were away, and we were locked in. And then they also, every night almost, they went away and locked us in the house. And I was always afraid it would happen again. And it did happen again, because we have an electrical business downstairs, which easily caught fire. And so ever since that time, I've just been haunted by the feeling that something like that could happen again. in many different forms, I can project it on a lot of different dangers out there that are going to come and get me. But you haven't yet experienced freedom from this fear, even though you've faced it quite a bit. Yeah. Yeah, it seems like, even though, like I mentioned, sometimes I'm more at the distance to it, it still doesn't seem like freedom, and it's still... Well, maybe that's the reason you have a problem.

[22:41]

Maybe you're not intimate with it. Maybe you've become distant from it rather than closer to it. Well, I had it both, where I felt very, very intimate with it, where it's very, very intense, When you were intimate with it, what was it like when you were intimate with it? It's very consuming. It's like I can't... That's not really being intimate when it consumes you. When you're intimate with something, it doesn't consume you, and you don't consume it. If it overwhelms you, you're not coming back to meet it enough. Intimacy is not being overwhelmed by something, and it's not overwhelming it. So actually, you know, part of what we're afraid of is that we're afraid of intimacy that will overwhelm the other, or the other will overwhelm us. So, and for me to suggest to you that I'm intimate with this, I don't mean to say that you haven't worked hard for a long time.

[23:45]

But to be intimate with anything may take many, many years. To be intimate with a person may take 20, 30, 40 years. And to be intimate with a particular experience, not to mention fear about the experience, but to be intimate with a particular intense experience is like being intimate with an important person. And it may take you more years in order to find a situation where it doesn't consume you and you don't consume it. But when you get close to somebody, to another person, I think sometimes we become afraid that they'll consume us or we'll consume them. That, you know, we have to submit to them or they have to submit to us to actually like meet it and both parties still be there. It's really hard work. It's really very subtle. So I guess I'm saying to you, please keep working on it. And when you think you've got intimacy with it,

[24:50]

And if you feel like you've got intimacy with it and you still don't feel free of it, I'd like to see that. Because I'm saying, I think when we're intimate with things, we're free of them. But again, I don't mean by intimate that you're like, you know, like intimacy with drugs or alcohol or something like that. It does not mean that you indulge in them. It does not mean that you run away from them. It means you can pick them up and set them down. does not mean that you eat the cheats, and doesn't mean you run away from the cheats. It means you can pick them up, look at them, and set them down. You don't overwhelm them, they don't overwhelm you. I guess sort of something like I meant when I said at times I have more of a distance, I feel that I have more of a distance. I see that down there, and I'm here, and it's more like that. Yeah, maybe the distance is working towards intimacy. You don't have to like something that you're intimate with.

[25:54]

You can be intimate with an allergy. and you still feel uncomfortable. But you can also, in intimacy, not want things to be different. You can actually understand that there's no alternative to this experience right now. But you don't have to like it. As a matter of fact, it's actually the experience of dislike or experience of discomfort. You don't have to like that to be intimate with it. But when you're intimate with something, you do not think in terms of an alternative to it. I would get to the place where the dislike disappears.

[27:08]

That's what the freedom would be. So now I can be free of it, and at the same time, I still wouldn't like it. Exactly. And I sometimes use this example. That's the truth. You don't have to be happy with it. [...] But even though you're not happy with it, it's possible for you to still be intimate and become free. And even while not being happy with them, you can become free. And you will be happy about the freedom. And the freedom will make other things possible that you'll be very happy about. But, you know, I sometimes use this kind of frightening example of pointing out that the students that I have are not necessarily the students I would choose. Matter of fact, I have some students that I have that I'm kind of allergic to.

[28:14]

Everyone wants to know, which one am I? And some other people, you know, I really like, but they don't want to study Buddhism. Why don't you study Buddhism? Come on. But What I need is some students that I really have a feeling I would not choose to be my students. I need to be devoted to some people that I would not choose to be devoted to. If I'm only devoted to people I would choose to be devoted to, it's not Buddha. Buddha is devoted to everybody and everything. But Buddha doesn't necessarily like everybody. I figured that, that this whole thing was given to me so that I write about it and learn something from it and draw from it. Yeah, I think so. Sometimes I just get so sick of it. Yeah. It sounds like it's a huge, you know, multi-decade project.

[29:21]

Yeah. Okay. So I just keep going, you know, keep going, keep growing. How's the energy level? It's getting shaky? Getting shaky. Yes, Amanda? You're wondering if I want to eat them? Who do they belong to? Well, if you buy me some cheeps and send them to me, then I'll see if I want to eat them. But those, I don't know who the cheeps belong to. You donated them?

[30:25]

No, no, no, no, no. I don't have to eat them. Now I could eat them because you gave them to me. So Amanda, you can bring them here. Anybody else want to endanger themselves? Beverly, are you going to come? Please come. Don't worry. Come on, Beverly, come on. Thank you. Oh, there are. Let's see. Three, four, five. There's 15. I can't open the package.

[31:31]

Yes, Beverly? Okay. Usually I have these questions that are really distracting. Can you hear her? Closer. Usually I have these questions that are really distractions because it gets too uncomfortable to talk about things. And so, I mean, it's really tough to deal with a question that fits into small conversations. But I can't come upon them because you insist and then you're there. I insist on what? What area? Oh, I insist on that. Oh. I just wanted to say this morning when I got up to say my name, it was really fascinating to me how much I enjoyed being up there.

[32:51]

I mean, I thought I was up, and then I was down. And you know, I don't have to look so nice to cast. But because people were so accepting and supportive, and they looked so well. So I thought, God, I could stay up here all day. You could. If we kept supporting you, you could. I think that's really true. Yeah. And we all got tired and went through some of it. Right, right. That the person we helped put down. Right. So I wanted to thank you all for that and to say it was a very pleasant experience. But that, and then I, quite a lot for a long time out of that. They were on, people kept doing more and more of this. my anxiety level broke again. So I thought maybe I'd better come up here and get better attention. Right. So that I could relax again.

[33:53]

Okay. Did it work? I'm totally relaxed. Great. Do you want to peep? I don't know. You don't? I don't know. Do you have to say? No, you don't have to say. Well, what is it? Pamela? Thanks, Pamela, for the cheaps, or the peeps. Peeps, yeah. They have no smell. Can you smell anything?

[34:55]

Can you smell anything? It says here, nutritional. Calories, 160. Fat content, zero. That's good, right? Sodium, 1%. Carbohydrates, 13%. Protein, 1 gram. What do I need for you tomorrow? No cholesterol, right?

[36:25]

I ate most of a peep. I don't need to finish it, do I? I do? I didn't distract myself when I ate that. I stayed in touch with my suffering. What did it taste like? It was kind of fun, because I felt like you were all having a good time. And it was very sweet, a lot of sugar on it. And the texture was all soggy. And it was, you know, it was okay. But I think that might be the last one I'm going to have.

[37:29]

And me and Pamela are going to work something out here. Oh, it's very sweet. Yes, Patty? Other thoughts? Pardon? Like I don't believe I'm doing this? No, I... A little bit like, you know, it's okay to eat poison.

[38:36]

I'm not staying away from all poison. You know, I'm going to be gone pretty soon anyway. And to be spending my time avoiding eating poison is really not what I'm going to spend the rest of my life doing. but I don't eat poison on purpose but I'm not that worried about being poisoned I am going to be poisoned if I live in this poisonous world because there's poisons to me the important thing is to love and be loved and so I feel your love while I'm eating poison and I feel your love when I'm not but it makes much difference to me about the poison I don't think poison's that bad. Like Pamela said, not that bad. But I was already thinking about it.

[39:42]

So I got a spoon, big spoon, and I went down into the compost bucket and just scooped up the the oatmeal. I looked at the oatmeal that was there, and I where I scooped was more oatmeal. It wasn't directly in contact. Part of that wasn't directly in contact with the compost. So I put that in a bowl, and then I scooped again. And that one seemed to be pretty clean, too. So I put that in. And that was it. And I ate the Romeo. Here I am. It was delicious. Huh? It wasn't cold. They just put it in. It was steaming. It was steaming in the compost bucket. So it was actually warm, delicious, and nutritious.

[40:45]

It was delicious. It was even better to eat. And I haven't eaten enough. I'm going to keep eating oatmeal, though. I really like oatmeal. I went this morning to get oatmeal, but did good. But if I go tomorrow and they throw an accomplished bucket, I can entertain the people at Mount Madonna people. Please come. Can you tell me?

[41:48]

Can you tell me? Can you hear her? Close, close to you. How about if I just speak about it? That's fine. Can you tell me what it's like to feel like you're not going to be here the next minute? Um... Well, in one sense, I would tell you what it's like in comparison to what it's like to think I am going to be there longer. I think I'm not as appreciative of this night as if I don't think I'm going to be there much longer. I'm not going to be there much longer. This is one of my last nights. And so it's kind of a blessed night.

[42:56]

It's a wonderful night. It's a wonderful night. It's a wonderful night. And if I thought it would be a long time, I might say, well, you know, so-so. You know, maybe to hope tomorrow is better. Hope next week's better. But anyway, since this might be my last night, it's a great night. And it's very tripping, but if they weren't, it would still be a great night. So the shortness of my life being impressed upon me makes me more grateful for whatever's happening. Poison, being attacked, you know. It's delightful. He's coming. He's coming. Did you know Rick means compassion?

[44:06]

Yeah. So I have the opportunity to wonder about what's more courageous for me to come up there or to not come up there. Bearing out my fire and know that there's a feeling that I just can't bear. But feeling like if I don't, I'm a failure. And so I've been sitting here, wow, that's not normalizing as much as I don't cannot. Do you think that's true? Not really. I mean, I... It's not true. Not true. There's just so much material to do well.

[45:13]

You're invited to come, but, and I hope you do come, You're invited to express yourself, show yourself, and I hope you do. But I'm not going to like you more if you do what I hope you do. Or less. It's just what I hope. It's just what I invite you to do. You're not like everybody else. That's true. But we wouldn't be able to find you. I wouldn't be able to find you if you were like everybody else. It's because you're different that I can find you. And I know when it's you because you're not like anybody else.

[46:15]

You're different from everybody else. So I need that in order to... What do you mean that you really don't like everybody? I always thought you didn't like... In my mind. I don't think they do because I don't. But I think they love everybody and I think they would give their life for anybody. And I think they would do anything to protect anybody. And I think the relationship with that, I think Buddhists like and dislike people. But they don't like and dislike interfering with their love and devotion to people.

[47:21]

They can love while they dislike. And also, many people can like but not love. They can like somebody, but, you know, disrespect them, manipulate them, possess them, abuse them, and love them. But they don't love them. They just like them. Like they like a piece of candy, or they like a car. But they don't love the car, the candy, or the person. They don't respect it. They just like it. They attach to it, they lust for it, but they don't like, they don't love it. For Buddha to love all beings, not necessarily to like or dislike them. Like and dislike are a different realm. It's discrimination, it's judgment. What's your name again?

[48:23]

Jackman. Jackman. Thank you, Dr. Jordan. Thank you, Stuart. I am a close friend of his. I have been friends with him since he was a little girl. And I've been very pleased to have him.

[49:24]

I hope to found him some day. Can you hear it? Yeah. Speak louder or move it closer to your mouth. What happens to people? What happened to the angry people? Okay. Question one, what happened? No, it won't happen. It should happen. What should happen? What will happen.

[50:26]

What will happen? What should happen? And what... Why do I think we're here? I don't answer why question. I answer how questions, right? How? I'm happy to talk about how we're here. That's a good answer.

[51:28]

Thank you. I think that's the answer. What was it? I would like to hear from you what you think, what happens to people who die. You'd like to hear from me what I think happens to people when they die? Mm-hmm. I don't direct my mind toward things that haven't happened yet. So, for me, I don't know what death will be.

[52:32]

And I don't spend my time trying to imagine what death will be, or what dying will be, or even what old age will be. I see what old age and death look like. I see it in other people. My concern is that when dying comes, when death comes, my concern is how can the practice be changed even into whatever death is. How can the practice continue? How can our practice continue even in sickness and weakness and loss of mind, ears, and tape, and muscles? How can your practice continue if that could happen? I'm not so much concerned with what will happen, but how the practice can continue. Because I'm concerned with how the practice is now.

[53:38]

And is this practice a practice that depends on anything? Does this practice depend on being alive? And if it does, I think I should have a different practice. It doesn't depend on being alive. It doesn't depend on anything. So when death comes, the practice will live on. If I get Alzheimer's, the practice will live on. If I'm sick, the practice will live on. No matter what, I want to practice. It doesn't depend on my body and mind being some special way. So that's why I do the practice. I want to do the practice of all of us together. The practice that all of you are helping me to do. Because then, no matter what you have in mind, the practice will continue to be supported by all of you.

[54:46]

Even though you're changing, too. That's the practice that I am devoted to. What? What are you feeling? Pardon? No, I didn't get my question. One try again. It's both of you. It's a good answer. It's better. I would like to know what you think about it. Well, again, I don't know what you mean by angry people.

[56:04]

Do you mean what do I think happens to somebody, like, for example, if I get angry now? You mean a normal person who is vulnerable? Yeah. Yeah. Well, again, it's a similar answer I feel coming. And that is, if I get angry and I don't care about getting angry, and if I get angry and I haven't told you people that I would like to not get angry unless it's helpful to you, and I told you that I want you to help me practice not being angry, and if I'm really devoted to the welfare of all, and I get angry, then anger is not a big deal.

[57:06]

But if I get angry when I don't care about it, I don't know if what I said is clear. I use the example of . of a grain of salt. If a grain of salt is put in a cup, a big grain of salt is put in a cup of water, it makes the water very salty. You can't drink it. But if you take the grain of salt and put it in an ocean, not an ocean, a lake, it doesn't... If you take anger and put it in a little, a small mind, a mind that isn't devoted to all beings, then that anger can take over that whole mind and cause a severe, unfortunate result. If you take an anger, some angry, and put it in a big mind, a mind that is devoted to all beings, then, you know, the result of it comes right away and is very small, almost like nothing.

[58:16]

If a big mind devoted to all beings is kind of rude to someone, then immediately everybody says, oh, that's terrible. You shouldn't do that. And that's the result. But if someone has a small mind and it doesn't care about anybody and they get angry, nobody says anything to them. They say, oh, that's the way he is all the time. He doesn't care about anybody. They don't say anything to him. So you don't get a result. So that anger just grows and grows and grows. until finally a very, very terrible thing happens to the person. So if you have a big mind, you can do small things and they'll be almost no problem. If you have a little mind, if you do a small thing, you will have a big consequence. So anger to one person can be devastatingly bad result to another person, not bad at all. It depends on the practice of the person.

[59:23]

You look at stories of the Buddha, sometimes the Buddha got a little angry at people. He can't. A little irritated, but it was okay. No big deal. I think one thing we'd like to be, we're sitting with more people in our place, about addiction and the kind of addiction we've heard. Yes. Well, my first response is that sometimes when I meet people who are really, really afraid, like that, I sometimes feel... I feel pretty bad because I...

[60:36]

I don't see it at that time because they don't want anything from me. They're afraid of me, too. Matter of fact, they're often hiding from me. And if I go near them, they sometimes get terrified or even tell me to go away. Like one time, one time I was at 7-Eleven in my car, and I looked at the woman in the next car, looked at it, and she got really angry at me. And then her boyfriend also got out of the car and started screaming at me. So I didn't know, I didn't, I couldn't, I didn't have a scope of response. I just felt like I had to drive away. And actually I had my robes on too, my priest robe. And, uh, I just felt really incompetent. I couldn't do anything to help.

[61:39]

So sometimes I can't do anything. But some other times, maybe you look at the person and maybe they see some compassion and maybe it's helpful. I don't know. No, a lot of times these people don't know about it. I thought, of course, it wouldn't be bad. I mean, that's another level, and there already is a skill set. So I'm seeing it. It's almost... Right. Yeah, it's that almost homaging, but... Great skill to snap out of it, and sometimes I don't have it. But a few times, maybe I do, but a lot of times, like I say, the first thing I want to say is that sometimes... I can't think of anything helpful to do. And I do just walk by. It's just not the right time to help. Help them meet.

[62:41]

So at that time I feel like they need help, but I can't do anything for them. I feel to snap them out of it, and sometimes I don't. But a few times, maybe I do, but a lot of times, like I say, the first thing I want to say is that sometimes I can't think of anything helpful to do. And I do just walk by. It's just not the right time to help. They don't want any help from me. At that time, I feel like they need help, but I can't do anything for them. Even if it's somebody or people you didn't contact with, I won't know that person's life. Yeah, actually, the other day I was at the place where I go swimming and these three people who I'm friends with were, they were talking about homosexuals.

[63:45]

And I just couldn't, I just, I couldn't believe what they were saying. I mean, they were like, And otherwise, I have kind of a good relationship with them, but I couldn't go over there and say, what are you doing? I couldn't quite bring myself to do that because I felt sort of self-righteous to do that. I was just humiliated by what they were saying. I couldn't do anything. But I didn't, you know, I didn't, I just waited. Well, maybe they, maybe they give me a chance. And one of them got up and walked by me and he said something about really being a beautiful day. It really is. But these are some people I know. And some other people I know at the same place, they do the same thing about black people.

[64:51]

You know, it's just, So I'm waiting for my chance, you know, that it may never come with these people. I'm waiting for my chance. Try to relate to them about this, but, oh, more difficult. And, you know, it kind of felt like they, like, like maybe none of them really meant what they were saying anyway. They were just sort of like feeding on each other. But I really felt I felt really helpless to interact with them and their viciousness. I guess I'm just grateful that I ever have a chance. to interact.

[65:56]

And I accept that which I run into quite frequently. And I wait for my chance. And they kind of know. They kind of see me sitting nearby and I'm not participating. They kind of know. Maybe later they'll come and talk to me about it. But today I feel Like I can't do anything, but maybe tomorrow I'll get a chance. It's getting kind of late. Is the energy slipping now? Getting tired? Low, it's going down. Down, down, down, down, down. So I see James and Judy have their hands up, but can we wait till later for you? Are you going to ask me after this? OK. So shall we adjourn for the evening?

[67:04]

And we'll start again tomorrow morning. We're sitting at 6.30. And I'm really impressed by the way you're sitting. You're sitting really, really well. Did you practice then or something? And you lie down really well. And I will show my feet. I have time now. Well, there were other people who wanted to find out. No. But I think it's a short question. It seems to me now that

[68:15]

so-called psychotherapy and then meditation have a lot in common in the sense of when I drew that character on the board there for awakening, which has the self or the ego. on one side and awareness or consciousness on the other side. And also part of awareness, which I want to say that it's part of awareness, is not only is awareness aware, but awareness is, by nature, which means non-judgmental, which means also in the sense of loving.

[69:29]

It accepts whatever is offered to it. It never argues with what's being offered. Whatever arises. In other words, we have an awareness like that. And so attention to our personality and our self or our sense of I, but we bring an awareness which is non-judgmental, unprejudiced to it also. But what I'm also saying is that that's not a special kind of awareness.

[70:41]

That is the way awareness is. But we also have other aspects of our mind which are judgmental, which are prejudiced, which are perhaps disposed or inclined one way or another. Those are floating around in our experience field too, applying around in our experience field too. And those sometimes, and sometimes our attention, the ability, in mind also, the ability to pay attention to one thing rather than another about what's going on. So part of the message that, part of what therapy is about is attention to

[71:42]

awareness itself and paying attention to the way that awareness is simply embracing and accepting. And then when we become settled, non-discriminating, non-judgmental way that awareness is, then to let the awareness deal with and become intimate with the self. And part of what happens when we meet together one-on-one or in a group, and we come forth to meet each other, and we actually show ourselves,

[73:21]

is we recreate the situation in which the self or the sense of self and the personality were originally created. So to facilitate the study of the self, in both in psychotherapy, but also in Buddhist practice, we set up meetings. And in the meetings, in the intensity of the meetings, in the intensity of meetings where you actually bring yourself forth, you create that kind of excitement and intensity where where the self was originally created to protect against the intensity of such meanings. And then hopefully the difference between the first time it happened and this time is that there's this awareness, this non-judgmental, settled... Being settled in awareness is there while we recreate the situation

[74:45]

of the birth of the self. So you can see how the self's made, what it's trying to do, what its creation is intended to address. This is enlightenment. To understand to what extent it's in delusion, to understand to what extent it's actually somewhat intelligent, to understand how delusion is intelligent, Just understand how ignorance is a sign of intelligence. But how? Can you see how? Ignorance is not a sign of anxiety. It is a condition for pain. It is a condition for fear. It is a condition for anxiety. sign of it.

[75:49]

It accompanies it. There's something intelligent about it. And it doesn't come stupidity. It comes because other things are going on. So that's why I'm encouraging you to express yourself all the time. express yourself more and more fully and again express yourself fully unless there's somebody else there and actually unless there's somebody else who in some sense makes you feel somewhat blocked not that not the other person is trying to block you but just something about them makes you feel somewhat restrained or hindered. If you express yourself and you feel unhindered, probably you're just not noticing your hindrances.

[76:55]

Maybe not, but I think so. I think even the great enlightened Buddha felt hindered by her students. And so because he was hindered, his expression had to grow. He had to find new ways to teach because they weren't, you know, understanding. They were saying, you know, they were saying, blah, blah. And I said, that's not what I mean. So he had to grow. He had to express himself more, more and more. And so our expression just continually can grow as we're hindered by others. But not because they're trying to hinder us now. Some might be trying to hinder us.

[78:02]

Yes? . Yes? First of all, the teacher listens and looks and then he smells and maybe touches. That's the first thing. When the teacher looks, something happens to the teacher's eye. When the teacher listens, something happens to the teacher's ear. Now the student can't see what happens to the teacher's ear, but something also happens to the teacher's body when the teacher listens. Sometimes the teacher's face, sometimes a tear will come, the teacher will smile, or sometimes the teacher will wince, or the brow may furrow, or the teacher may drool.

[79:10]

The teacher may sneeze. The teacher may go to sleep. If the student brings forth the self, however,

[79:19]

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