This will be a chant of welcome. The chant is the same for persons and for the Spirit of God. So it is chanted in tribe. opening to all present and opening by your body posture to the spirit of us all. And so your posture will be your head back, your eyes closed and your word, you know, I mean comfortably back, just simply up for a sense of trend, real yearning, real yearning. And your portion of the word I'll lead you as the introductory portion. Your portion will be AYE. And the word that will speak as welcome is simply the Navajo word AYE. Okay? So you will be the AYE and I will take the first part of that word and we will simply pray the single word in chant.

[01:08]

Yathai, [...] Yathai. Thank you. O Lord and lover of men, make shine in our heart the pure light of your divine knowledge.

[02:40]

Open up the eyes of our mind to the understanding of your gospel teaching. Give us reverence for your blessed commands, that going beyond base desires, we may live according to the Spirit, understanding and doing all that is your good pleasure. For you are the light of our souls and our bodies, O Christ God, and we send up glory to you, together with your Eternal Father and your all-holy, all-good and life-giving Spirit, now and always and forever and ever. As we read last night in the very lovely and ingenuous answer of Saint Seraphim of Sarov to the man who asked him, how do I know that I have acquired the Spirit?

[03:47]

And Seraphim answered with these words from John 14. If you love me, you will keep my commandments and I shall ask the Father and He will give you another paraclete to be with you forever, the Spirit of Truth, whom the world can never receive, since it neither sees or knows Him, but you know Him, because He is with you, He is in you. I will not leave you orphans, I will come back to you. In a short time, the world will no longer see me, but you will see me, because I live and you will live. On that day, you will understand that I am in the Father, and you in me, and I in you.

[05:04]

Anybody who receives my commandments and keeps them will be the one who loves me. And anybody who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I shall love him and show myself to him." And at that point, Judas, not the Iscariot, said to him, Lord, what is all this about? Do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?" And Jesus replied, If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my father will love him, and we shall come to him and make our home with him. Those who do not love me do not keep my words, And my word is not my own.

[06:08]

It is the word of the one who sent me. And I have said these things to you while still with you. But the Paraclete, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you everything. And he will remind you of all that I have said to you. This is the first of the passages in this particular section of the Gospel of Saint John, in which John pictures two things at once. The Lord before his glorification, which is his death and resurrection. and the Lord glorified in the midst of his people still addressing them.

[07:11]

And so we find a constant interchange between present and future and past. We find statements which are true of one time and statements which are true for all time. In this first promise of the Spirit, The commitment is basically the Lord's to us. I'll ask the Father and He'll give you another paraclete. Now this word is difficult to translate and for this session it would be better to leave it alone. Let it mean advocate, comforter, one call to one side. This spirit is the spirit of truth. Jesus said, I am the truth, but he also said, I am the way.

[08:16]

So that truth is a way. If truth is a way, where does it lead? The Lord said earlier in John's Gospel, come and see. Later in this section of the Gospel, we have the famous passage, when He comes, the Spirit of Truth, He will guide you into all truth. because he does not speak of himself. He speaks of what he has received. The spirit of truth is that spirit whose basic drive is to bring us truth

[09:28]

through the pain of the concrete and not the luxury of the abstract. As a Christian, I suffer the scandal every day in my soul that my God has come to me in such a concrete way that I cannot avoid it. As a descendant of the Western barbarians, I look to older cultures, The Martin tribe was a marauding band who finally beat up the people around Dijon and settled down. Long after many people who are in this room had a much more refined and sophisticated culture. I can claim neither as a civilization and certainly much less as an individual that I have begun at all to understand the depth and breadth and length and height of the mystery of the Lord Jesus.

[10:33]

But perhaps it is some of my very defects that render me very, very attentive to scandal, the scandal of the concrete. I'll return to that later. The spirit of truth then is the spirit of liberty, as Paul says in one of his letters, where the spirit is, there's liberty. A liberty or a freedom that is meant, if I am faithful, to have these words, this reality of Jesus, reminded to me. So that what is for me only scandal and un-understanding will break open from the inside. From the inside, that which appears only as burning fire becomes spirit and life.

[11:40]

There are those who seek for wisdom in a timeless formulation and there are those who seek for wisdom in one very tremendous show of power. Paul described these two people in the terms of his day. He called the first the Jews, or rather the Greeks, and the second the Jews. The Greeks search for wisdom and the Jews look for power. And we preach a crucified Christ, who is the wisdom and the power of God. For the power of God is foolishness to men, and the wisdom of God is folly to men. If I could only be content with one dynamic show of unavoidable power, of such a demonstration that I would be forced to consent, or if only I could arrive at such a space of timelessness that I were forever wise.

[13:16]

If either of these ways were open, but they're not, We have heard over and over again that we are not allowed to resolve paradox by seeking to transcend it, by trying to find some point outside it, by some great self-conscious effort by which I once again arrive at the thing so dear to my love of error. namely domination. If I could only dominate truth, it would be mine. What I can dominate is not truth. I belong to truth. Truth does not belong to me. It is the role of the spirit of truth to bring me between

[14:24]

my desire for such a demonstration of God that I am forced to consent and such a secure wisdom that I have power of my own. This way is crucifixion. All of us are speaking. Some of us consider ourselves in one way or another to be scholars and cheater teachers. But none of us are under any illusion. When someone who knows speaks, we just know that he knows. And when one crucified person meets another, there isn't need for much conversation.

[15:29]

When one resurrected person meets another, there's such union that conversation is a distraction. The God who said, let light shine out of darkness has shown in our hearts giving knowledge of the glory of God shining on the face of Christ Jesus. What does that mean to me? It means that in a way God has lost his anonymity. God has a face. God has manifested. But as God reveals himself, he hides himself. As I seek to grasp, as I seek to hold that face of God,

[16:41]

The Lord says to me, as he said to Mary Magdalene, don't hold me any longer. As I seek to create out of myself such a demonstrating show of power that the world will believe and be impressed, I seek liberation. I seek the liberation of all my brothers and sisters. And then I find that I am not liberated myself. And so I release this sense of power and I search for wisdom. And having begun the search I find that I've forgotten my brother."

[17:46]

The glory of God shining on the face of Christ Jesus. What does this mean? When I was a young monk, I read that if a man perseveres in prayer, he will find his I suppose we could say his identity, but we'd cheat ourselves a bit. He begins to find his center, and if he perseveres in prayer, he will find his deep heart, and he will know that he is in union with every person on this globe. Once, an old Greek monk, about 1938, was asked, There are a lot of illusions in this ideal of yours of pure prayer, Krozef Ki Katara.

[19:02]

How do you know that prayer is pure? My heart was dancing yesterday when we were listening to Sasaki Roshi, because in my own way I heard this answer all over again. The old monk said, it's true that the Holy Spirit can so draw a man out of himself that he forgets the world and even forgets himself. Antonios the Great used to say that when a monk knows he's praying, he's not praying. Even out of himself. But this doesn't last very long. And if at that moment, when a monk is aware of himself again, he begins to pray for the whole world, that prayer was pure. That prayer moved with the Spirit of Jesus, the Spirit of Truth.

[20:07]

The glory of God that shines on the face of Christ Jesus In Paul's mind and in Paul's context, this is the mystery of what we call creation. For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, the Guru, whose word alone is enough to say, yehiyor vayehiyo, let there be light and there was life. This God has shown in our hearts. That means that my heart is infinite. It also means my heart is dark. It means that within the vast spaces of my own inner being, there is a universe bigger and harder to understand and harder to reach than the moon, or Mars, or Venus, or the whole universe.

[21:15]

I can think about the universe. Can the universe think about me? The God who commanded light to shine out of darkness has shone in our hearts, giving us knowledge of God. No one has ever seen God, of the glory of God shining on the face of Christ Jesus. God, no one has ever seen. No one knows who God is. He who says that he knows God is a liar and a fool. And yet, The glory of God shines on the face of Christ Jesus, and this gives me understanding.

[22:20]

The guidance of the Spirit, and the word in the text is an interesting word, odivisi, from odos erago, to make a way, to be a guide, This morning when we were so beautifully treated to a demythologization of the role of a leader, teacher, master, this word was in my mind, to make a way. But I have to follow the way. The way is there. but we walk on a way. Now this image is very old biblically. How do I walk?

[23:21]

He who says, as John says in his first letter, that he knows God must walk as Christ walked. And how did Christ walk? In this we know the love that he gave his life for us. And we ought to give our lives for the brethren. And John immediately adds with the great practicality of a mystic. Now if a man has the goods of this world and sees his brother in need and closes his heart to him, how can we say that the love of God exists in that man? Brothers, that's not love in word and talk, but in deed and in truth. And Saint Augustine's commentary on that is very beautiful. If you're not ready to give your life, at least part with some of your goods, as John recommends. Rather than absolve yourself from heroism, at least begin.

[24:29]

John's play on words there is very interesting because he's talking about vias, life. And what he's saying is, that a man must lose his grip on his life. A man has to let go. However this comes to someone, if he refuses to let go, he never understands. This morning when we were discussing staying going, staying going, I had problems as a pragmatic American. I thought, let's go eat. All I could think of was Let go. God has touched us. God has enlightened us. Praise God. Let's go. Let go. The God who has touched us, the God who has enlightened us, the God who holds us in existence, will he forget us? Is it my effort that makes God? Do I produce enlightenment?

[25:36]

What is commitment to the Spirit? Are there disciplines? Yes, sure. And the role of all these disciplines is to render a man so open to God, so open to the spirit of truth, that at that moment when he finally yields, he knows it wasn't himself who yielded. And then he's free. And then he knows the spirit of freedom. And where the spirit is, there's freedom. He knows. We have to let go of our hold on life. That's one of those statements that's true at every level of our existence. My hold on my life. My hold on my identity. My conviction that my personality is the center of a circumference. And if I wish to stay intact, I must maintain the circumference.

[26:39]

Or, of course, my personality is an illusion. Perhaps my personality is the center without a circumference. And then I have nothing to defend. But when will I know that? When I let go. But when I let go, I find my deep heart. And then I find that I am in union with everyone on this globe. I don't understand that. I just know it. And then I find a mystery. That God has been suffering in his people, his poor, his oppressed, his suffering, since the beginning of time. And that if I want to know God, I must share the pain of my brother. A truly enlightened man passes for totally ordinary because he doesn't even know he's enlightened. He may remember he was, but when he's totally enlightened, he is totally himself, totally identified.

[27:47]

And he passes among his brothers as a blessing, but not a blessing of which he is aware We were told that if we knew we were going to rise, our death would be cheating. It's lovely. As I stand here in not very much pain, and I ate today, it's easy for me to say I know I'll rise. But when I'm faced with the reality of the nothing, that I carry. My words are very small. But the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, I don't know what that light is.

[28:49]

The minute I hold that light, I lose it. The minute I claim to know that light, I've lost it. And so Commitment to the Spirit means letting go of my grasp on life. And then I find Christ suffering in all his people. I know that's true. My Lord was on his face saying, if there's any way out of this, I take it. Not what I want, what you want. But to see Christ is not to have an automatic luminous paintbrush and paint everybody over and force Christ on them as though I knew Christ. I carried him around in a paint bucket.

[29:53]

No. It's a discovery of the mystery of every human being. Because Christ is the Son of God. He's not a paint bucket. As a moral device, I can cover people over and be nice to them. I can see Christ in people and smile. But that has nothing to do with faith and nothing to do with the teaching of the Christian religion. It's moralism. And so we are faced in commitment to the spirit with many, many problems. How are we going to distinguish between aggression and violence and energy? How are we going to distinguish between chastity, celibate or married, and fear of the body? How are we going to distinguish between alleviating the pain of my brother and sublimated manipulation?

[31:02]

And deeper still, how are we going to be faithful to pain? The deepest problem I find in my heart, and I know I'm not alone in being faithful, is precisely the scandal of what I know in the sea of what I don't know. If I have infinite ignorance, I'm blessed, but it doesn't always calm my mind. We who are beginning to understand so much, perhaps better to understand that we understood, are beginning to see something. We have to accept the pain of growing out of so much that is small and limited and cultural and philosophical and gross in our understanding.

[32:21]

At that point, we must grow. We must lose our grip on life. If a man wants to save his life, he's going to lose it. If a man throws his life away, he'll find it. At the same time, there comes a point When in fidelity to the scandal I know in my being, I must hang on in pain when everything in me wants to walk away. And at that moment, our soul is held by two pincers in the fire of the forge of divine light. I can walk away. I can find another explanation. to my own ruin, I have finally arrived at that point when what is outside could become inside.

[33:27]

And as our souls are held in those pincers, as my soul is there in the fire of that forge, that pain I cannot avoid in the name of my own truths. in the name of who I am, in the name of truth. I will discover that those pincers are really the arms of Christ, and that that fire is really spirit and life. But at that point, whoever I am, pray for me, help me, be a brother to me. But you who have passed through that fire know that if I leave that point, I will never know truths." That's what the Spirit seems to be saying to the churches.

[34:37]

I am reminded, and with this I'll conclude, of an incident in the life of Abbas Antonios whom I look upon as the father of my way of life. He was the father of all Christian monks and hermits. And one day Antonios saw in a vision all the obstacles and dangers and illusions that beset the spirit of man as he sets out on his way toward truth. And he was so overwhelmed that he cried out Who can be saved? How can someone arrive at truth? And a voice answered, Humility. Professor Thomas Berry of Fordham University, New York, has a response.

[35:49]

One of the questions that was asked to me privately, and which I think is a very important question, is whether we are gathered here these days to commemorate the past or to create the future. What we have so far, I think, is some wonderful insights into the past of some of the major traditions some remarkable contributions in our meeting together personally and in recollecting the great spiritual visions and the great spiritual disciplines of the past. But I think that something needs to be said about the further aspect of what we're about.

[36:57]

One of the things that I've myself talked about a great deal is that the great mission that we have in our times is creating the global human tradition for the first time. Up until this generation, a person might say, mankind has lived in distinctive traditions that have been influenced by each other to a certain extent. But from here on, the human dimension of life will require that each human person accept the totality of the human tradition as his own personal tradition. And this does not involve the mixing of traditions in such a way that the tradition becomes a kind of composite.

[38:03]

It's not that at all. The traditions, I think, call to abiding distinctions and the preservation of primordial experiences that have structured the great work of mankind during the past 5,000 years. We are much closer to primitive peoples now than mankind has ever been since the movement out of more primitive stages into what we call more advanced stages, although we have to be very careful in using these words that we are not trying to establish a certain type of superiority of one over the other. But we are also much more intimately associated with each other. And in the future, I would expect that from kindergarten up, that people will be educated in the global human tradition.

[39:06]

At the same time that they are educated and grow up in the spiritual discipline of the distinctive traditions. Now, in the light of this, there is a kind of a comprehensive burden that falls upon us to be able to identify just how this is to be done. In fact, the whole meaning of this gathering, as far as I myself I'm able to see it from the information or what knowledge I have of such meetings, tendencies towards such meetings, is that this represents a unique moment, a person might say, in some ways, perhaps a minor moment, but certainly a unique moment in human history. I can't recall a gathering precisely such as this before.

[40:07]

There's also a kind of unique meeting that's taking place the first week of September in Los Angeles, where on the learned level there is perhaps the most monumental meeting that has taken place so far of scholars concerned with the religious formation of man. It's a rather extensive meeting that's taking place in Los Angeles on that level. This is much more, of course, on spiritual level. It's much more on the level of practical spiritual disciplines. And so, One of the things that I don't know if Father Martin would care to comment on the work of the Spirit or how he might envisage that in relationship to this general mutual presence of the traditions to each other.

[41:17]

It is, whereas the traditions, the great desire should be to keep them with a certain distinctiveness, at the same time, they will necessarily be present to each other in a much more comprehensive way. And in my own view of the mission of the Spirit in the air, but commitment was confusing somewhat the mission of the Holy Spirit with our commitment to the Spirit. Our commitment to the Spirit would seem to involve the fact that in Christian terms it is the Holy Spirit, which in the Christian order is the mediating element. The Logos is probably less important now than Spirit. And certainly a person might feel that contact with the Indian tradition will reveal dimensions of the Holy Spirit, particularly the imminence of the Holy Spirit, more than in

[42:22]

and perhaps development of the theology of the Holy Spirit more extensively than before. So that rather than Logos theology, we may have more Spirit, Holy Spirit theology. And I don't know if Father Martin or this ends up with a kind of a minor monologue of my own, but I was wondering, I'm particularly concerned with that we don't just talk abstractions. but that we come into the realities of what we're about and that we try to work out some of the more abstract ideas in terms of the immediate issues that we face. Thank you. My answer will be brief, I think. As I see it, we're concerned right now with a question of the present.

[43:30]

The past is what got us where we are. The future is somehow in seed. But in the present, there is another pain. There is a pain of knowing union of heart that isn't followed by union of mind or union of head. I see, put it this way, I don't see where it's going, but I don't think that's my job. I know, I think I know, basically what the Spirit is asking of me and I think everybody else right now. And that is, as Antonio has heard, humility. I learn so much every time I contact anybody from another tradition. And I can feel the pain in my mind of letting go of things that I thought were essential.

[44:40]

There they go, and I'm still all right. But I find this always a challenge because there is a superficial way that we can decide out of our own rationality what union is. And then it becomes a compromise instead of a union. I'll trade you three passages of Saint John for four of the Vedanta. And that's compromise. And that's a sin against truth because if the Lord has really given us what we have, And the Lord who is one will make us one. And I can't do that by throwing away. I have to be humble because I have undoubtedly added many things to what God has told me that he never said. It's my idea. And it takes a lot of reflection and a lot of help.

[45:43]

If we're there, then I think we are faithful to the Spirit. And if we're there, then where we're going will happen. In terms of the Christian scriptures, God is in the process of making something new. Well, if it's new, I've never seen it before. And so I don't know. But I'm really happy about that. Most of what I've seen up to now hasn't been that great, you know. I'm glad it's new. Stephen Durkee has a question. It seems to me that when I heard you speak, and I say this in humility because I don't understand what you were saying, that you speak always

[46:46]

or at great lengths, it's a crucified, suffering Christ. And I hear very little about the resurrected Christ. And I say this not in pride or arrogance, but in humility and out of coming out of your tradition and the tradition of many of you in this room. And why I feel that I come out of it is because And I don't, I just don't and never have understood it. And I just have to take this opportunity again to ask. To ask why we who are Christians preach constantly the crucified Christ. And I remember When I was going to school, the nuns always used to tell me, well, Christmas is a great holiday, but our greatest holiday is Easter. And the church where I went and the church that I'm standing in now,

[47:49]

I see the crucified Christ behind you again, and I don't see in this room, except in our beings, the resurrected Christ. Right on, man. Well, no, don't put me in that particular thing of right on, man, because I'm not talking at that level. I'm talking at a very real level. I'm not talking about Anything that's flip or hip or right on, a real question for a lot of the people in this room. Because it seems to me, if we're talking about commitment to the Spirit, that the commitment we're talking about is the commitment of resurrection. To embody in our beings that resurrected Christ. That the stigmata is obvious to all because we all suffer. as Lord Buddha very clearly perceived, that there is suffering among us in this world. There's no question about that. But that the commitment to the Spirit is the commitment to that resurrection, and that in the face of that suffering in the world, that our testimony, that our witness of Christ is the witness of our resurrection and his resurrection.

[49:04]

I could perhaps briefly... First, there is the Lord's image of the grain of wheat. Now the whole purpose of a grain of wheat is life. It's to grow in a mystery of life and produce fruit. Now the way that that grain does that is to lose its hard shell. It's to lose its identity. Now what it may experience is a power of death. What's going on is a mystery of life, it's transformation. Paul says in writing about his own life that we carry about within us the dying of Christ so that the life of Christ may be manifest. Now why I answered you the way I did was in my consciousness What deflects me from fidelity to the Spirit is my idea of resurrection, is my idea of what it means to be really human.

[50:13]

So that whether it's true of me or not depends upon God. But my only answer can be if you're looking for the resurrection Listen to what I'm bearing witness to in my consciousness, that is, fidelity and not avoiding the spirit in pain. But also look at who I am. I'm not a sad man. I love life. I'm proud of my God. And I'm happy. And I love people. And I know, even in the slight bit of learning I've done in my short life, that when I let go of my grasp on life, I live. But what I'm preoccupied with, perhaps it's because I'm only beginning to be a disciple, as Ignatius said on his way to martyrdom. What I see, what the question mark is, is the fact of pain.

[51:18]

Mine, everybody else's. And it's fidelity to that reality that produces life. I'm reminded of what the 15th Dalai Lama said. In the understanding that dukkha, or pain, is a necessary cognitive myth in life, that's suffering, that because that we resolve to practice those causes which give rise to happiness and put an end to suffering and unsatisfactory experiences. That is that we make a positive practice with inside our life to practice those causes which give rise to happiness and put an end to unsatisfactory experiences and suffering. That as we continue to dwell on the image, why in this room is there not

[52:19]

a risen Christ. Why is there only a risen Christ at the sale in the book store? Why in this room is there not that picture? Because for those years, the suffering which is real, which I certainly am not going to argue with, because I've certainly been traveling in the little bit that I've lived in and seen that suffering. But we dwell on it because we are afraid It seems to me to see that on an image of that which is risen, that which does rise above that being. Mrs. Sarah Small has a comment. I come from a different background, and he's very much alive with me. I'm sure that he rose because he rose in me. To me, he's very real. He's my everything.

[53:21]

I didn't have the opportunities that most of you had, but I don't worry because Christ in me solves everything. He said that there will come a time when men will be seeking. running to and fro, looking for knowledge, and never coming to the knowledge of the truth. The truth is Jesus Christ. He now lives in me. Commitment to the Holy Spirit, that's the seal. You know, my mother used to can food, and she'd put it in a jar. And she placed a little rubber around it to seal it. The Holy Spirit is my seal. He teaches me. He's my mirror. He let me see myself as I am. I'm nothing. I don't acquire to be nothing. I'm happy just to be in Jesus, who teaches me every day.

[54:23]

When you stand and wonder why you never met him, it's because you did look at a building. And Christ is not the building. I never said that I never met Jesus because I certainly feel I see him all the time. Oh, alright. So I mean, that's like that other one that he laid out. You know, we all take advantage of our various dances that we do to lay those out. And that's not the statement that I'm making at all because I feel Christ very alive and very real. The church, the meeting to me, I'm like an automobile, and it takes gas. Right. You know? So I'm in here to get fueled up, because I do have Christ on the inside. He is alive. The Holy Spirit is here. Right. He's in here because he's in me. Right. Yeah. Okay. I feel it. Good. And he's a dog shed.

[55:24]

Uh-huh. There's nothing to be afraid of after that experience, though. And I believe that's what he thinks. If he says it's going to rain, I look for water. I'm just a simple human being. I don't think all that well things. I'm just trying to do. I don't know what to do. I don't know. But I've eaten and I'm dependent on food. I don't know what I'm eating. Right. I don't know, but you know, I made Him Lord in my life. So from now, my life is unfinished. I can't say that nowadays. I can't say tomorrow, I'm going to be over it. I may pass through it, but I'm not. I'm not. And yet, Lord, because He teaches me.

[56:28]

I don't preach to Mary. I'm not a virgin. I hope tomorrow it's going to be. Yes, I've had to walk a little path so that it's believable to him. It's believable. Because he's taking me through the path. I'm living in the United States, where Christians persecuted me. Yeah, I have the same experience. But I am a fallen man. Right. I don't either. It's just that very often one questions his, quote, church. Thank you. Swami Satchidananda has a word. Friends, we seem to be going off track. It seems

[57:36]

Each one of us here, or at least a few of us, are trying to establish what they believe is the truth. It seems to be like that. It's not for that purpose we are here. In fact, No two people can see that one truth in the same way. Even two Catholics. Yes. God is God. God made man probably is repenting for it.

[58:39]

He made all of us equally but unfortunately each of us are trying to make our own God. And there's nothing wrong in it. You have your God. Let me have my God. Why should I force my God into your throat and you your God into my throat? Is it possible? It's never possible. Because let us remember that in the whole world there are no two individuals who have the same 100% similar mind. Not only the clocks never agree, the minds too. We all have different minds.

[59:47]

God purposely created that way. He never created two similar minds. Unfortunately, we don't agree even in this area. You know that? The FBI people make the best use of it. Even within this half a square inch thumb impression, we vary. And that's why the whole world is a joy, is a fun. Variety is the spice of life. We want variety, we don't want similar things. Then why are we here? To put my thumb into your thumb? No. But to live and to let live. We want to live in one spirit.

[60:52]

We are all talking spirituality. In spirit there are no two spirits. Spirit is God. There are no two Gods. But there are different bodies, different minds, different intellectuals, different emotions, So there is always the multiplicity. So if we are talking of spirituality, let us rise above these physical and mental gymnastics. Until we rise into that spirit, we cannot see the same spirit in others. In the words of Bible, love thy neighbor as thy own self.

[61:59]

How can I love my neighbor as my own self? It is easy, I can love my neighbor as my neighbor, Mr. so-and-so or Mrs. so-and-so. But to love my neighbor as my own self, I should see my own self in himself. To see myself in himself, I should know what is myself. That is why they say, know thyself, then see thyself in himself, then love himself as yourself. So, our purpose is one. We all have the same purpose, to live in spirit as one family.

[63:03]

But to fulfill the purpose, there can be many, many paths. Not only that, only Rome has different roads. All the roads lead to Rome, we say. But unfortunately in the very same Rome they say there are no different paths to that home. All the rivers ultimately come and dissolve in the same sea to lose their name, form, taste and everything. So let us take our own path. suitable to our taste, our temperament, our capacity, our environment, our tradition. We are not here to create uniformity, which is not possible. Many people have tried. But let us remember the unity.

[64:10]

We don't even need to create unity. The unity is there, just let us see it. Spiritual hunger is the one common to all. And we just want to satisfy that hunger. You approach the spirit in your own way. Doesn't matter. So let us have as many paths as we want. If somebody wants to worship Christ in this form, fine. If somebody wants to worship in his resurrected form, it's fine. If somebody wants to worship Christ in a different form, it's fine. In the Hindus, you see this example. As a person coming from South India, I know how they worship a God by name Skanda. Some of the people say God must be very young, alert, more or less independent, not even should have family botherations.

[65:17]

Because suppose when I call him, he wants to come, his wife may stop him. The child may drag him. So I wanted him to be always a young man, unmarried, ready, tying the cloth with a peacock vehicle, with a spear to come and save me from troubles. We call him Balaskanda. But the family people thought, no, if I go to him with family botherations, he won't understand what it is. If he is not married, if I go with a complaint about my wife, he says, that is why I am not married. No, I want to be a married God. And that too, he must have two wives. He has two wives, Valli and Devayana, on either side. The Sanyasi is like us, hot. Neither a young man nor a family man knows a Sanyasi's heart.

[66:22]

He must be a Sanyasi. So in Palani Hills he is standing as a Sanyasi. But the same God. Where is the harm? He can come anywhere you want. You can worship anywhere you want. He is capable of appearing to you, approaching you. as you want. So let us not try to set up a particular form or name or method and say this is the best. The best thing is take your road, take your boat travel in the river, we will meet in the sea. Thank you so much. This was not directly addressed to Steve's question.

[67:25]

If somebody has an answer directly to Steve's question, that would be fine. Otherwise, I would personally just say one word, and that is one has to probably look at it on different levels. On one level, all of us Christians will probably agree from experience that there is by far too much emphasis on the suffering Christ and by far too little on the resurrection Christ. I think everybody, I hope that many people will agree with that. I think this is something on one level. On the other level, you cannot separate the two. And if you only listen to what is already developing here, Sasaki Roshi gave exactly the answer yesterday and I took it down verbatim. He said, the death of Christ on the cross is his resurrection. There is just no better statement in all of Catholic tradition. This is a perfectly Catholic statement. That's dogmatic, perfectly correct.

[68:26]

His death is his resurrection. St. John has only one word to cover both. his exaltation. That means his exaltation on the cross, his exaltation in the resurrection, his exaltation in the ascension, and his pouring out of the Spirit is also included because he doesn't even say he died. He says he poured out his Spirit. The Pentecost is also included. This is one mystery in the Gospel according to St. John. So if you just listen to what is said, sometimes maybe Sazaki Roshi will give us the answer to such a question, and indeed he did. So I understand exactly what you're saying as to levels, that one could say that in the birth of Christ is the death of Christ and the resurrection of Christ because it's all one thing, right? Okay? Is that the same or is that different? There's a very special way in which his dying is the resurrection, in which Christians do not believe that the resurrection is revivification or is a comeback of any sort.

[69:29]

He dies into life. He dies into life. Okay, but there is, after all, the description of the death, the final minutes, all right? I mean, if we're going to count it down, the final minutes on the cross, the description of the descent into Sheol, and the resurrection. Yes? Now, what I want... I understand what you mean, what you say, that in that death, like the other day, someone said that if one was to understand that in dying there was no resurrection, that that would be the death, the true death of Christ. Yes? The other day, this was... Father Panikkar said that the other day. And I understand in my own small way what that means, my limitation of it. And I am in no way, Ms. Small, trying to avoid any kind of a

[70:30]

testimony of my own personal belief in Jesus Christ as my Savior, which I absolutely and completely couldn't be here even speaking without that presence having been. Okay? That's the way I feel about that. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the way in which we appear, the way in which that Word does go forth, and that as beings, from whom that emanates from, that as we focus upon that suffering image, that we continue that suffering and in some way refuse to accept upon ourselves the responsibility, if you like, re-sponsoring, to re-father, the ability to re-father our own beings in our resurrection and the ability to re-father ourselves in resurrection. And this is the point that I'm trying to make in terms of commitment to the Spirit. Part of that Spirit, it seems to me, is the understanding inside of our own beings of what that resurrection is and the willingness to give testimony or testament or witness to that as well as to our suffering.

[71:47]

And that is what I'm trying to get at. Not to placate the answer, not to make it go away. I mean, you can keep the cross forever, as far as I'm concerned. That is not what I'm saying. That is not the suggestion I'm making. I'm saying that there should be that room in our commitment for that resurrection. And that we still, as Christians, haven't gotten over being hung up, if you would like. on that image, okay? Thank you. Well, I'd really like two minutes and then I'll be finished. Thanks, Steve, and I think it's a lot clearer and I apologize if my answer before was too quick and deflected what you were trying to say. I think we got a good, even as an individual thing, I think we got a good response from Swami. As a limited person, I can only perceive it one way. I know that if, when I'm challenged to let go of my grasp of life, I know that if I do that, that I'll experience resurrection.

[72:58]

I probably could have presented it better when I was talking about it. Because it certainly is true that historically, certainly in the last four or five hundred years, we have not lived out or manifested that we really think Jesus Christ is right here, right now. And that experience is the experience of resurrection. He said he'd be here, so he's here. And when we know that, then we know resurrection. Just one second on a theological level. The Lord Jesus Christ died in an act of love. Now that act of love was so powerful that it couldn't die. And he passed to God in that act. And the redundance back into the world of time and space of the power of that act of love is what we call resurrection. So it's one act of death and resurrection.

[74:01]

I think that's all I have to say. Besides being limited, I might have been too quick in deflecting your question before. Dr. Alan Watts wishes to speak. There is an ancient Latin saying, crux medicina mundi, which means the cross, the medicine of the world. But never forget that a medicine is different from a diet. I often doubt whether Christians believe in the resurrection, and still less in the essential. Because shortly before Jesus was crucified. He said, it's expedient for you that I go away, for if I go not away, the Paraclete, that is the Holy Spirit, the Strengthener, cannot come to you. And then when he was risen, the angels were found at the tomb, and they said, why seek ye the living among the dead?

[75:08]

He is not here, but is gone before you. Now if whatever you mean whether you take the resurrection and the ascension of Jesus in a very strictly literal and historical sense or if you take it in a sublimely mythological sense or any kind of sense then we also have to heed the words that he said I think mockingly to the Hebrews You search the Scriptures daily, for in them you think you have life. Now, if Jesus is in heaven, and heaven, of course, is everywhere, we're in heaven, we're in space, there ought to be every Easter Sunday a solemn and ceremonious burning of the Holy Scriptures. Of course, the person who conducts the ceremony must have read them. Instead of getting this hang-up on the letter, that is really being tacked up.

[76:11]

Again, I quote St. Paul, the letter killeth and the spirit gives life. Of course, the devil can always quote scripture. Alisa Mandel has a comment. I would like to say something what I learned through then about the crucifixion. And there are two things. One, I remember the pain if you have ever done Zazen and sit more than half hour, then you think, well, nobody ever died on a cushion. But the pain is so terrible. And when I complained to my Zen teacher, he said, enjoy or feel the heat of the pain.

[77:16]

Accept the pain for the salvation of others. I said, wow, that sounds Christian. And then the high point was at a session, which means eight days of sitting all day long, I think nine hours a day or more. at the last day we were all half dead of pain and the Roshi shouted at us, there is no resurrection without crucifixion. Father Robert Vachon, director of the Saint-Morchenin in Montréal, wishes to speak. Father Barry has asked the question and I still feel that it has remained unanswered. Of course, I don't expect to answer it.

[78:19]

I certainly don't have the answer. I feel more like a little child walking for the first time. And it's with a little trembling that I speak. I'm not used to speaking in public this way. He mentioned that we are for the first time in history experiencing the beginnings or the seeking, the search for a global human tradition. Father spoke about living this already in the present. It's not a question of only creating the future. The only thing I could say and it's been in my heart these past few days and I wanted to say it and just give my simple witness. It is this, it's one thing to be together juxtaposed, each one with his own right, each one with his Ishta Devata,

[79:32]

and in a great spirit of tolerance, which is wonderful and very important. We can never insist on this sufficiently and we thank Swami Satchitananda for bringing this out. There is another dimension in my own life that I would like to simply communicate to you. I was ordained a priest in 1955 and as far as I know I'm still a Roman Catholic priest. I'm still in communion with the Church. But since 1963, I have tried to open up and to let go to the Hindu tradition. This has brought me very far. It has brought me to the point of asking the question to Panikkar yesterday, must we die to Christ? We're speaking about death of Christ. But I wonder to what extent I myself must not die to Christ.

[80:37]

This is a question I've asked in contact with the Hindu tradition. But when I said that I wanted to be faithful to Christ and I felt the pain. I felt the pain of the concrete and the detail and I still feel it. It's still there and I must not negate it. I must be faithful to Jesus. And I hope that I remain faithful to Jesus. But I still ask the question. And the answer I dare to say. And I had to let go at one point and say, yes, I must die to Christ in order to live to Christ. And this is not a gimmick. This is not a passing word that I say to put a glare or to give importance to the ego.

[81:39]

Because I know too much what it means to die to myself when I say that. And this is what I ask of all those who have been speaking and explaining their own spiritual tradition. What does it mean to you to let go in your own tradition, your own spiritual tradition, in your own spiritual life as you open up to the other? Swami Satchitananda said, we want variety. And he said, I must love my neighbor as my own self. And this is the text that comes to me these days, you have no idea. All I can repeat to myself, love the other as myself.

[82:41]

But what does that mean to me? It means to me that I must enter into the self of the other, as other. And for that I must die to my own self. Of course, we can say, I must see myself in himself. And in order to see myself in himself, I must see and I must know myself. This is very true. This is pure Hindu tradition. But I say, to know the other as other and to experience him from within, Whether I'm a Christian or a Zoroastrian or a Buddhist or a simple... I don't care what the ideology or what the religious tradition is. But what does it mean to love the other as my very self?

[83:45]

Well, for me at the present time it means this. It means to enter into the other as other. To lose myself in the object. To lose myself, and this I speak as a Christian, to lose my Christ in the other, the non-Christian, the non-Christ. And there, I tell you, I don't dare to say that I find Christ. Because I find Him. That's like eight minutes of meditation. There's something kind of going through my heart right now. Before we go on, there's a suggestion that we reflect a bit.

[84:48]

People are getting restless mostly because of the time element, and also because in ways we've sort of moved up into our soul someplace. Not your question, I don't mean that, you know. And I would suggest maybe we just pray for about three or four minutes before we move on. I think we've lost something. And I think stand up or do whatever you want and let's pray for a few minutes and then during that time perhaps reflect and then see where we are. Heal me and let it go. Heal me and let it go.

[85:50]

Heal me and let it go. In the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

[86:55]

Amen. In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen. me.

[87:30]

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